Liberal trap in the War on Christmas

[BoneDaddy]

Do I think the "War on Christmas" is a creation of the right to mobilize the fundies, people in the center and Christians in general, and create a situation where liberals look like they are trying to destroy Christianity?

Absolutely. It is a conscious attempt on the part of the right to set a stage based upon bullshit and make the left look bad.

Do I also think some people on the left fall into the trap of playing the role the right wants us to play?

Absolutely.

I want us to think, not react, not come from some emotional pain that is personal or empathic with other groups plights. I want us to THINK about this trap that we have been given and make the right choice on dealing with it.

Whether you like it or not we do live in a nation that is overwhelmingly Christian. It does not matter whether you are atheist, agnostic, rational, irrational, the reality is we have to deal with this factor.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

So, when the vast majority of this country identifies with Christianity, that MUST be taken into consideration when addressing this issue on "the war on Christmas".

Do I think non-Christians need to take a stand against Christians, especially fundamentalists, on issues where Church crosses State? Absolutely. I think the right wing got a real wake up call on these very issues and I think the rational Christians spoke up on the Terry Schiavo debacle, stem cell research and teaching "intelligent design" in public schools.

It is in these type of situations where we MUST put our foot down and I am entirely behind the movement. This is where time, energy and money are well spent.

That said we need to be balanced in our approach in regards to religion and not come off like the persecutors that they can be. They need a persecutor to keep the "War on Christmas" going. Remember that, whether we like it, agree with it or think it is stupid we have to at the very least understand it and show some good judgement and saavy in order to have our progressive movement WORK.

We certainly do not like having anything shoved down our throat and guess what, neither does Christian America, so if we want success instead of extreme resistence, we need to show some tact and good judgement. We will need the rational religious' support in America if we are ever going to have lasting positive change.

If there is one way to empower the right's "war on Christmas" it is when we, as progressives, get sucked into fights over Christmas trees, reindeer, Santa, happy holidays vs. Merry Christmas. This is energy that is wasted and we have so much work to do.

So let us spend our focus upon legitimate cross overs of church and state and let the "war on Christmas" fade into obscurity.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays

[trotsky]

1. Hmm.

A lot of people say the same thing about "In God We Trust" defacing our currency or "Under God" being in the pledge. Non-issues. Don't worry about them.

Problem is, those are both used to JUSTIFY further demolition of the wall. "This is a Christian country! See? It says so right here on our money and in our pledge!"

I see the same thing with Christmas. RWers are using it as a tool to further the power of Christianity. No, we won't get anywhere trying to ban Christmas trees from any public location, but that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate issues with the way some Christians want their holiday ENFORCED.

[BoneDaddy]

2. That may be true

but remember, I am not talking about what is rational, I am talking about what will work. As long as their is an identifiable group that actually fulfills the right's role as "christian persecutors", then we will lose, especially if it is regarding truly trivial issues.

Again, America (still overwhelmingly Christian) showed real backbone and good judgement in some of the more important issues as I mentioned above...stem cells, Terry Shaivo etc. I don't find anything wrong with historical religious symbols staying like "in God we trust".

The answer is NOT to try and remove things like that, it makes us look stupid and petty. The answer is to educate the masses who don't realize that our founding fathers were deists, Unitarians, rational men who believed in the enlightenment as opposed to fundamentalism. That is where we win.

[salvorhardin]

4. The problem is...

The problem is that there will always be some group fulfilling that cherished role of persecutors for the simple reason that fundamentalist Christianity requires it. At its' core, fundamentalist Christianity shares a lot in common with conspiracism in that way.

[BoneDaddy]

5. Agreed

and sometimes we need to play that role legitimately. All I am saying is let's not jump into it and in the process hamstring ourselves by looking ridiculous.

[BoneDaddy]

3. duplicate post

[sam sarrha]

6. Faux Media Theater is SLAMMING this hard... end times are near

[Buzz Clik]

7. You're drawing battle lines a bit randomly.

Do I think non-Christians need to take a stand against Christians, especially fundamentalists, on issues where Church crosses State?

I am a Christian, but I have no use for the Ten Commandments in the courthouses, I don't want a nativity scene on the Capitol lawn, and I don't want a bunch of fundies running the school board and legislating curriculum.

Don't make this a Christian vs non-Christian thing.

[BoneDaddy]

10. Did you read my post?

I purposely made sure I made mention of the rational Christians who showed their mettle in the big cases (Shiavo, Stem cells etc) to make sure it wasn't a blame all Christians thread.

I personally could care less about historically religious icons but am against erecting any new ones for that reason. I find that pursuing historically religious issues like the 10 commandments ridiculous, but that is me.

I would object to a nativity scene at the white house too and removing fundies from school boards, butthink that forcing any private company to say "happy holidays" is bullying on part of the left and sets us up to fit the role of the right.

And many of us fall for it all the time.

[salvorhardin]

11. What company?

What company has been forced to say, "Happy Holidays?"

I think you might be unknowingly falling for a right-wing canard yourself there. Do you honestly think that the big, bad atheists and secular humanists could force any company into changing its' policies against its' wishes?

[BoneDaddy]

14. Perhaps forced is the wrong word

but publically pressured certainly is not. Take the rabbi who complained about the x-mas trees in Seattle. It took one complaint and boom the trees were down. Enough already, I am growing tired of everyone's "offense". Even though x-mas trees, reindeers etc are considered secular symbols.

I work in a public school where we were told to wish people "happy holidays" instead of Merry Christmas...fucking ridiculous. To the people who I know are Christians, I wish a Merry Christmas, to those who are Jewish I say "Happy Hannukah", to the pagan kids "a Happy Yule" usually works, to those of other faiths I may say "Happy Holidays".

[salvorhardin]

23. He threatened to sue because the airport wouldn't let him put up an 8 foot tall menorrah

SEA-TAC Airport - All 15 Christmas trees inside the terminal at Sea-Tac have been removed in response to a complaint by a rabbi.

A local rabbi wanted to install an 8-foot menorah and have a public lighting ceremony. He threatened to sue if the menorah wasn’t put up, and gave a two-day deadline to remove the trees.

Sea-Tac public affairs manager Terri-Ann Betancourt said the trees that adorn the Sea-Tac upper and lower levels may not properly represent all cultures.
Video

No menorah, no tree

She said that since this is their busiest time of year and they don't have time to add a fair representation of all cultures, her department decided to take down all of the decorations, review their policies, and decide if they need to make a change for next year.
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_120906WABxmastreesEL.11b0d0cc.html

So in this case you had one crank threatening to sue the airport if they didn't comply with his wishes. Rather than get embroiled in a lawsuit that could potentially cost the airport a large chunk of change the airport did what was natural. The removed all but the most secular of decorations.

The airport left some "holiday" decorations in place, including poinsettias, lights, wreaths and snowflakes. Individual airlines were not included in the tree removal, and many still had small trees on their desks and counters.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2715008&page=2

As far as your school goes, I'm sorry but that is a public institution that has no business endorsing, even tacitly, any religious beliefs. Happy holidays is the best way to go. The case of the rabbi is different in that he was just pissed because the state (I assume Sea-Tac is owned by the City of Seattle) wasn't giving explicit endorsement of his religion.

[ComerPerro]

8. so your solution is just to keep appeasing these freaks.

Gee, that solution worked so well for biologists in the evolution debate, didn't it?

Give the fucking psychos an inch, they take fifty miles.

You let them start putting up Christmas displays in schools and gov't buildings, and soon they will use that as proof that this whole nation is Christian. Then they will want to start teaching the Christian religion and passing laws based on the Bible. And they will not only cite the presence of Christmas in schools and gov't as a reason to justify their actions, but they will say anyone who is against it is attacking their religon. And you are so afraid of offending these freaks, where will you be then?

[Buzz Clik]

9. Ah. The domino theory.

There is no historical precedent for your fears.

[ComerPerro]

12. remember the part about evolution?

[BoneDaddy]

16. And you are the type of liberal

I find as rabid as the right wingers.

[ComerPerro]

19. yeah, I'm just so extreme because I am getting tired of Xtian RW bullshit

what does that make you?

[BoneDaddy]

21. Balanced, rational fair perhaps

I don't paint all Christianity with the same broad brush reserved for the most extreme theocrats. Like it or not, if we want change in America we will need the moderate religious to step up and take a stand with us. I don't think "crucifying" them is necessarily the way to go about it.

[BoneDaddy]

18. Not afraid of offending them

I just find that going out of your way to piss them off about trivial, petty things doesn't get us far.

[Bandit]

13. We (the government) already grant Christianity several federal holidays

Why do they insist upon so much more. We do not do that for any other religion...It becomes too apparent we are being discriminative if we allow religious displays on government property. I will accept that a Christmas tree no longer rep[resents just Christianity but for them to demand business says Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays is overbearing IMO.

[BoneDaddy]

17. did you ever stop

and realize that the VAST majority of Americans identify with a Christian affiliation and that it MEANS a tremendous amount to them. You may not agree with me but that is not the issue. The issue is if we want to win, we will have to not put ourselves in a virulent adversarial position against their religion.

[MessiahRp]

15. We're going about this the wrong way entirely...

Instead of battling with the inclusion of Christ and Religion into society we should pick smaller winnable battles. If you attack religion as a whole and use Christmas as a front on that war you lose ground on the other issues because Christmas is sacred to some degree to even the non-fanatical.

I personally think if you want to win an argument with a Christian on Christmas you do it by distributing facts... like the fact that the holiday has zero to do with the birth of Christ and that it was a Pagan holiday that was so popular the church felt the need to hijack it for their own purposes.

Pagans are the reason for the season, not Christ. Not to mention scientifically Christ's birth, as described in the bible, could not have occurred on Christmas Day. Position of the stars and whatnot.

These are winnable points.

When we take these two points and make Christmas about Santa, TV specials and movies, music and lights... we win this battle because we're not taking their "Christmas" away, nor are we asking to take their traditions away. We're simply laying out the facts and doing what the Pagans originally intended with THEIR holiday. Making the day fun and joyous.

Oh and by the way, The History Channel airs a special saying these very facts. Below is the schedule info...Record and distribute away. :)

Christmas Unwrapped: The History of Christmas
(I assume all times are Eastern, check your local listings)

Wednesday, December 13
11:00 PM

Thursday, December 14
03:00 AM

Monday, December 18
11:00 PM

Tuesday, December 19
03:00 AM

Thursday, December 21
08:00 PM

Friday, December 22
12:00 AM


Rp

[SoCalDem]

20. It's just one of the many "head-games" the republican wordsmiths love to play

Somewhere, at a sleazy think-tank, this "plan" was cooked up.

All they had to do was have the media necessary to perpetuate all these "outrages".

That media network has been up and running for decades, and has done a number on the public psyche..

Propaganda techniques are used every day that would do any psy-ops guy proud.

People who don;t understand any of the nuances of policies, are ready at a moment's notice to spout line and verse (that they have had fed to them for years) ..

Dems need to brush up on basic debate techniques, and be ready to debate either side..and to refuse to take the bait.

[BoneDaddy]

22. Well said

Couldn't agree more.