I don't get it DU. A woman and a black man who may run who have a real chance is historical!

[xultar]

Why all the crazy posts about how much you hate the media coverage.

I don't get it?

Explain it.

All the people who say they hate the coverage...you don't see how important this is for black folk in this country?

You don't see all the positive things that can come out of this coverage? That black kids around the country can see a black man run for president who has a real chance?

I'm really starting to dislike DU and the tone of the discussion where Obama is concerned. It is borderline racist from where I sit. I'd think so called liberal diversity types would think it was cool but yet all I see are these effed up posts on how Obama can't cut it, how you're sick of the coverage, questioning how Obama got his money to go to college, (Obama isn't experienced (IF THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU THEN SKIP THIS ONE...BUT YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE)), Obama's middle name is Hussein and stoopid shit like that. Those are some racist ass fucked up posts people.

You don't think that black folks will turn out and vote for Obama in historical numbers? You don't think that with such a high or the highest ever black voter turnout their efforts to steal the election will fall short.

Don't disappoint me DU. Don't post the same shit the fucking racists will use when trying to discredit Obama. When I see that shit here...I start to wonder. I really wonder...

OH AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T READ...OR DON'T UNDERSTAND....

I AM NOT SAYING YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT HILL OR OBAMA... BECAUSE I DON'T .-------I SUPPORT CLARK---------

----------I AM SAYING THAT THE COVERAGE IS HISTORIACAL AND EXTREMEMLY IMPORTANT---------.

AND POSTS QUESTIONING THE STUFF ABOUT OBAMA ARE RACIST.---------QUESTION OBAMA ON HIS STANCES AND DECISIONS...-----

NOT WHERE HE GOT HIS MONEY TO GO TO PREP SCHOOL AND HARVARD...NO ONE HERE QUESTIONS WHERE THE WHITE CANDIDATES GOT THEIR MONEY FOR SCHOOL OR THEIR MIDDLE NAME!!!!!

GEEZ SOME PEOPLE CAN'T READ WORTH A FUCK.

[Puzzler]

1. Amen!

.

[acmavm]

2. You obviously don't have a clue as to the meaning of the word

racist. And just because Obama is black no one is supposed to have reservations or be against his candidacy? Because if they are, they're a racist?

Whatever the fuck ever. This is some racist fucked up post.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radwriter0555]

10. If I ever referred to my friends and family as folks, they'd kick me out of the house.

No matter how much melanin you have in your skin, or how much you don't have, it doesn't make you any smarter or any dumber than anyone else. It never has and it never will.

[xultar]

12. What's wrong with folks?

[FrenchieCat]

84. Nothing......

at all. I use it all of the time. Maybe it's a Black thang? :) :shrug:

[xultar]

86. TRUE DAT!

[radwriter0555]

143. The use of "folks" is demeaning in that it's a countrified type of term,

it harkens of dirt roads, ramsackle shacks and ignorance.

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=folks

S: (n) folk, folks, common people (people in general (often used in the plural)) "they're just country folk"; "folks around here drink moonshine"; "the common people determine the group character and preserve its customs from one generation to the next"
S: (n) tribe, folk (a social division of (usually preliterate) people)
S: (n) family, family line, folk, kinfolk, kinsfolk, sept, phratry (people descended from a common ancestor) "his family has lived in Massachusetts since the Mayflower"
S: (n) folk music, ethnic music, folk (the traditional and typically anonymous music that is an expression of the life of people in a community)
S: (n) folks (your parents) "he wrote to his folks every day"
S: (n) folk, folks, common people (people in general (often used in the plural)) "they're just country folk"; "folks around here drink moonshine"; "the common people determine the group character and preserve its customs from one generation to the next"

The more appropriate term is "people", not folks.

[REP]

148. Your Prejudice Doesn't Equal Good Etymology

There is nothing pejorative about the use of 'folk' or 'folks' - except perhaps in your head. It is an informal, friendly term for people in general, your internet cite nonwithstanding.

[radwriter0555]

151. I've never heard the term "folks" used to address a group of people other than blacks. You never

hear someone saying "the white folks never vote for mexicans".

While "folks" is used to refer to one's family in intimate terms, you don't use "folks" on a group of wall street bankers or when referring to a block of voters of any other color. It is been specifically paired up with that particular group in a rather demeaning and rural-type reference.

The use of "folks" isn't appropriate when addressing a group of black people, if one must find a way to separate them for referencing purposes. The appropriate term is black people.

My family and friends come in many colors, and I don't refer to any of them as folks.

[Nicole]

152. Just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it isn't used

Maybe it's a regional thing. We often refer to groups of people, any people, as folks. Unless we're speaking to them then it's y'all.

"Them folks in Washington got their ass kicked" was a comment I heard at our mostly white Thanksgiving gathering.

[radwriter0555]

160. But you didn't say "them white folks in washington got their ass kicked"

at thanksgiving.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

161. I Had An African American Sociology Professor Who Used The Term "Folks" All The Time...

It's a southern colloquialism used to humanize folks not degrade them...


For instance I might say "gay folks aren't any different than you or I once you move past who they have sex with..."

[personman]

156. Hello

I've grown up in Ohio. In the bible belt, with white redneck farmers all around. I've probably used the word "folks" all my life, although I've been trying to break the habit since dubya referred to al-qeada as "a group of folks" (Edit: Not for any racial connotation, but because I realized how stupid it sounded to most people). I've used the phrase "white folks" or "black folks" countless times I'm sure. To my knowledge there is no racial connotation (Edit: or any negative connotation) whatsoever to "folks". A lot of the stereotypical rednecks who use "folks" are the same stereotypical rednecks that are racists, so maybe that's where the confusion comes from, but as far as I know it's just coincidence.

[Dorian Gray]

165. Really?

REALLY? I've never heard the word "folks" used as a pejorative towards African Americans or any other ethnicity. I've heard it used by those as a warm term in which simplicity is favored. I've heard it used about parental figures. I've heard it used about a general population of people. (Ex: My folks are almost here. The folks in this city sure are friendly. The folks sitting over there? They're really good people.)

I don't know where in this country using the word "FOLKS" would ever be considered a racial pejorative!

[shadowknows69]

178. I use "folks" because it means "common people"

in my interpretation that means no one of us is any different or better than any other. We cool with that folks?

[xultar]

170. FOLK=FAMILY. You are so wrong. I don't need ANY WHITE person telling me what is demeaning to me.

[shanti]

182. ok!

:thumbsup: i know where you are coming from, xultar.

[Kerrytravelers]

172. Our family has used "folks" forever.

It may be a regional saying, but it holds no connotations of the sort.

[shanti]

181. oh please

you are going to far with this. there's absolutely nothing wrong with "folks"! why are you censoring the op?

[REP]

149. Not A Damned Thing!

Some people make up shit off the tops of their heads. There's nothing pejorative about the use of 'folks' and so far as I know, it's a not white or black thing - I use folks, and I'm so white I'm practically my own night light.

[Nicole]

153. Nothing

I use it often.

[Le Taz Hot]

3. So, I'm supposed to vote for Hillary

because she's a woman and/or Obama because he's African-American. Yes, yes, I know, I'm a misogenist and a racist. Couldn't POSSIBLY be because of their positions or lack of experience or the fact that at least one of them has abstolutely no personal integrity. Nope. Couldn't be that.

[xultar]

8. DID I SAY THAT???? JEBUS can you read?

[acmavm]

16. Yeah, you said that and a lot more. You accused everyone

here who doesn't automatically think Obama is the greatest thing since, well, the greatest thing period of being a racist.

As you see from the response you're getting, your bullshit just ain't flying.

And as for being on crack, I think you need to put the pipe down.

[xultar]

20. No I didn't.....I SAID THE POSTS questioning his money for college were RACIST.

Posts about his middle name were RACIST.

People who said they are sick of the coverage are borderline racist because this is fucking historical.

WHAT YOU DON'T WANT THE MEDIA TO REPORT ON A HISTORICAL EVENT LIKE THIS?

[acmavm]

29. Crap, you said that everyone who questioned his lack of

experience was a racist. You said that everyone who doesn't think he has enough political experience is a racist. You just plain took everything anybody ever said about the guy and said that those remarks are based in racism.

Your whole post was nothing more that a blanket accusation against anyone who does not consider Obama to be deserving of taking the party's nomination.

[xultar]

36. The experience line is just a fucking excuse. They used it on Harold Ford.

[acmavm]

65. You say it's an excuse. To some it is a damn valid reason for

him not getting the nomination.

But then again, everybody's a racist so what the hell?

[xultar]

71. Yes, my post did say that every one is racist. You read it correctly. BUHWAWAWA!

:rofl:
Can't pull the wool over your eyes!

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

107. You're so cute. You crack me up. You should take your act on the road.

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

34. Questioning Obama's experience is racist? I quote your OP here

I see are these effed up posts on how Obama can't cut it, how you're sick of the coverage, questioning how Obama got his money to go to college, Obama isn't experienced, Obama's middle name is Hussein and stoopid shit like that. Those are some racist ass fucked up posts people.

[xultar]

40. I'm afraid that if he were white it wouldn't be that big of a deal to some.

[uppityperson]

43. Are you saying DUers only question experience of non-whites?

are you series?

[xultar]

46. I'm SERISE!!!!!11111111 FOR SOME...yes. What you don't think it is possible?

[uppityperson]

50. anything is possible, but saying Everyone who questions his experience is racist is wrong.

I question his experience because I don't know if he has enough experience. I question ANYONE's experience and EVERYONE's experience and calling me racist because 1 of the people whose experience is black is wrong.

And back to the original topic, beyond that, media coverage is good. "anyone" can grow up to be president, so long as you are a white male. Hm, I'm a beige menopausal female, what does that make me? Not even Queen of the Universe yet. dang.

[xultar]

56. FOR THE LAST TIME. IF IT DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU THEN SKIP THAT ONE.

[uppityperson]

59. it does get annoying when there are so many subthreads to reply to

doesn't it? Media coverage is good. Not only white males can run for president. This is good.

[xultar]

66. It does become crazy confusing doesn't it. OK. Friends?

:hug:

[Tom Rinaldo]

167. To others it would be though

It was a big deal to me with John Edwards in 2004. I like Obama, I think it quite possible I will support him for President someday. The question is which day?

[roguevalley]

145. until they declare officially, I don't see a historical event. plenty of

African Americans and women have ran and wanted to run. this hype is the media filling hours. until they announce, there is no event. IMHO. If that makes me racist or mysogynist, then so be it.

[Kerrytravelers]

174. Please read the post carefully. The OP clearly said she supports Clark.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. while i am fine with hillary/obama

i can understand when people say that they are too corporate owned etc

however, this time round, maybe we will learn not to eat our own candidates and let the fucking republican win

because like hillary/obama/kerry or not, they are a whole lot better than ANY republican

[xultar]

91. True. I do believe Hill and Obama have some Corp hooks in their asses...

let's talk about that. Not Obama's name or where he got his money for school. Those questions wouldn't be asked of Biden.

[radwriter0555]

5. well it's a good thing black folks will vote for someone just because they're black, right?

Nothing like merit or positions or political view points to be used to actually decide whether or not to vote for someone.

Voting for someone because they're black or white or male or female is like voting for someone because they had the best commercial and you believe everything you see on the teevee.

I don't like obama because of specific positions he has and because he's immature.

I don't like clinton because she still sucks up to the bush regime.

I don't give a shit what color or gender they are.

[Captain Hilts]

54. Sorry, but blacks do vote in a block in a way that women, Hispanics, etc. do not. nt

[xultar]

72. No need to pull logic out. It will only serve to confuse them.

[radwriter0555]

141. Is that right? Blacks are the only sector that votes in a specific block? How would you

explain that phenomenon?

[Captain Hilts]

146. I don't know. But 9 years as a pollster I saw i pretty regularly. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

105. Actually, that's not the case.

Black folks do not vote for someone just because they are black. Cases in point: Alan Keyes, Michael Steele, Lynn Swann, Ken Blackwell etc. etc.

[Captain Hilts]

132. I didn't say that. I said "they vote in a block." nt

[Catherine Vincent]

144. And I didn't say that you did, sweety.:)

I was replying to radwriter.

[Captain Hilts]

147. Oh! Sorry! nt

[bryant69]

6. Is it borderline racist to see more than Obama's skin?

Or is that the only thing we should be focusing on? Ignore that he's young, unexperienced and can be concillitary to the right wing?

This is exactly the same kind of game Republicans play with Colin Powell or Condeleeza Rice. "They are Black, and you liberals claim to be supporters of Black people. So why don't you support them?" Well because I can look past their skin color to see the person underneath. And in Obama's case that means I think he would be a great VP choice, particularly as someone who can pick up the mantel in 20016 - but I'm not keen on him for 2008

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[sniffa]

9. oi vey

i hope they get even more coverage now, if it means more threads Like these.


c'mon DU, don't disappoint me.
:popcorn:

[xultar]

11. No one here questions where white candidates got their money for college.

[mike_c]

13. it makes no difference to me that Hillary is female or Obama is black....

In Clinton's case I utterly oppose her politics. There are a number of female presidential candidates I'd LOVE to support-- HRC is just not one of them. As for Obama, I'm still reserving judgement until I learn where he stands on the issues that are important to me-- I neither oppose him nor support him.

Regarding the media, I will say that so far only one Democrat has officially declared candidacy-- Dennis Kucinich, who also happens to be the standard against which I'll judge the other candidates, since Kucinich represents my interests pretty near perfectly. I'm hoping that the media gives him the attention he deserves. After all-- he is presently the front running democratic party candidate!

[JNelson6563]

14. Wow. Just wow.

I am stunned that you would go so far as to infer that anyone who doesn't support Obama for President is a racist.

:grr::grr::grr:

Julie

[xultar]

17. I didn't say that. YOU CAN'T READ. BTW..I support Clark.

I said the posts questioning his money for college were racist. No one questions white folk on that. You don't hink the posts about his middle name are racist? That is exactly why FAUX is using it against him.

I don't think you read my post at all. NOT ONE FUCKING BIT.

[uppityperson]

39. You said questioning his experience ir racist. Here is your quote

I see are these effed up posts on how Obama can't cut it, how you're sick of the coverage, questioning how Obama got his money to go to college, Obama isn't experience, Obama's middle name is Hussein and stoopid shit like that. Those are some racist ass fucked up posts people.

[xultar]

48. Alright...I'll change it and list the exceptions for you. Will that help?

[xultar]

49. I UPDATED IT FOR YOU...IF IT DOESN'T APPLY THEN SKIP IT.

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

53. so, if you are racist enough to have this apply it does but if not not?

that works. Better at least. and yes, more media coverage of positive stuff is needed.

[xultar]

57. Exactly. I'm not a Hill or Obama supporter but I love the fact that he has a chance.

I'd vote for him. I'd rather vote for Clark.

[uppityperson]

61. Me too.

[Dora]

18. That's not what Xultar said.

I don't support either candidacy, but I agree that the media frenzy (as annoying as it might be to some of us) does plant the idea in young viewers' minds that ANYONE CAN BE A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT.

And I agree with Xultar. That's a good thing.

[acmavm]

22. No that is NOT what the OP said.

[Dora]

30. That is exactly what the OP said.

The OP also said that those who complained about the media frenzy were posting borderline racist arguments against the Barack candidacy. There was no outright accusation of racism.

And the gist of the OP was crystal clear to me. Media attention on unlikely candidates is a good thing.

[swimboy]

44. Step away from the thread.

There are folks here who are trying to help you.

[acmavm]

64. Help me what??????????

And why do I need help?

[swimboy]

70. Help you consider

whether or not the OP understands better than you do what she meant to say and whether or not you are finding a base issue she did not present in her OP.

You came out of the gate breathing fire in your very first post, man. Take a deep breath. Don't use the heat of anger to validate your position, try the light of reason.

[acmavm]

100. Worry about yourself.

[swimboy]

112. Thank you.

:hi:

[xultar]

23. Thank you!!! I don't even support Hill or Obama...I support Clark.

[sweetheart]

15. Ever go to the horse races?

Do you bet to place or do you bet to win?

Betting to place can win you some money, and does not involve
the more difficult issue of actually winning.

Other people bet to win, and only choose the horse if they're
dead sure it will cross the finish line first.

Gore/Clark '08

[babylonsister]

19. From my POV, the media coverage is really annoying because

it's way too early, not because a woman or black man are involved. When they speak of these two, they ignore the war, the new Congress, things that are happening now that should be focused on.
We all will surely be fatigued if we have to hear about Obama and Clinton from now til Nov. 08.

[SoCalDem]

27. You got it.. That's why thet are DOING it..

Bush is "old news", and the shaping-of-the-'08-election is underway. The media will tell us who our president will be, and they are busliy "winnowing' the crowd.

[az chela]

47. Amen to this sister

As usual you are right on!!!!!
I am thinking Gore/Kuchinich at this point but its too early to make a decision!!!!

[xultar]

51. But it is HISTORICAL...If you can't see that then you are lost and I don't even support H/O

[babylonsister]

62. It can be just as historical in a year, can't it? I'm not negating

that history could be made, but I think too much of a big deal is being made of both of them (and Clinton we've been hearing about all the past year) way too early. It would be nice if the media concentrated on which way this war will/should be going in the next year.

[xultar]

76. WTF...people have already started announcing. So you think that they

should be quiet..people are fucking running already.

[uppityperson]

21. Postitive things can come out of the coverage.

However, I don't support Clinton's policies, and I do not think Obama has enough experience yet. It has nothing to do with either's sex, color, creed, etc. Besides, I am waiting to see what happens between now and then.

Media covering the fact that a non-white man can run for president? Fine with me, puts a bit more truth on "anyone can become president" (so long as you have financial support).

[etherealtruth]

24. I'm with you xultar

This is historic and gives me hope.

These two are serious and popular potential candidates ... they have a "realistic" shot at this. When else in history could we have said this? I am proud to be a Democrat. A black man and a woman ... serious candidates for president; this is cause for hope (and a little joy!)

[xultar]

28. Thank you...did you read the replies...I'm shocked that so many people can't read.

At least you understand what I am saying.

[Flarney]

25. What's your take on David Sirota's recent articles?

I think David Sirota asks some very important and fair questions about Senator Obama's potential Presidential bid. (none of which involves his name, race, college funding, etc.)

I agree that the press coverage has been a positive thing for the reasons you mentioned, but when it comes to selecting a president, we can't be afraid to ask hard questions. Do you think Sirota is off-base?

[xultar]

33. I think David Sirota has some valid concerns. I like his articles.

I think people should criticise him on his stances and decisions...not middle name or where he got his money for prep school or college. I think Dav

That is what I'm saying. I support Clark for president personally. But it would piss me off if people kept saying he couldn't win because of his middle name. That's stoopid.

[Marr]

26. Who is being racist/sexist here, really?

"Black folks will turn out and vote for Obama in historical numbers"? Yes, of course- they'll all vote for the black guy, no matter what his politics are. And women will vote for the woman, no matter if she's a pro-war corporate shill or not.

All that issue stuff is secondary to race and gender, right?

[uppityperson]

41. You got it! It's HUGH!!!1

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

Blacks will vote for Obama yes. For Condi no. Understand?

[cally]

31. There's a large part of me that is excited about Obama and HRC

because both have a good chance of being elected. It is historic and I know that the teen girls that I talk to are thrilled about HRC as a candidate. I guess I never predicted that our first chance of electing a minority or a woman as President would end up being a race between them but that's how this may end up. It could get very ugly for all of us.

I constantly find some comments about HRC and Obama as sexist and racist, respectively. I also find much sexism in the attacks on Pelosi. It's interesting to watch how the media reacts to powerful women and minorities.

I don't support either HRC or Obama as a candidate because I don't think either is the best choice. I would still be thrilled to have either one of them instead of a Bush or McCain or Brownback or ....

[xultar]

95. I agree about teen girls and the Hill run. I didn't want it to be a Hill bashing thread

becaue we all know that is what it would have turned into.

I'm glad that young girls and teens can see that they can be President. A Hill run has got to really put some seeds in the ground. Maybe we'll see a woman President before long.

[Captain Hilts]

133. Pelosi is pretty exciting also. What a GOOD contrast with Hastert. nt

[w4rma]

32. The hell with this thread. Debating candidates strengths and weaknesses on non-ethnic/non-gender

traits is about as anti-racism/anti-sexism as you can get. People should should not be stymied by calls of racism/sexism when they dislike/like non-ethnic/non-gender aspects of a candidate. Racism/sexism is about not being able to look past ethnicity and gender.

[swimboy]

35. I think I hear where you're coming from.

After the New Jersey equal marriage decision there was a lot of talk about how the Democrats' ship was on the rocks because the selfish impatient gays who wanted equality had just shat all over the beautiful upcoming election.

I am thrilled that the Democratic party can vet viable candidates for the top office in the nation who are female and black. I'm not getting into who is the best candidate but both Clinton and Obama are viable candidates and that is newsworthy. All the candidates are going to go through a harrowing elimination process and it is early to "anoint" anyone.

All of us should get out and work for our favoured candidate but don't malign someone else's choice.

And do NOT get on the track of saying we'll be shooting ourselves if we run anyone other than a straight white male.

xultar, I've got your back!

Edited to clarify that I'm trying to address some of the respondents as well as the OP.

[xultar]

87. Thanks for understanding. People don't want to admit that they may be biased

in some way or another. Some time bias includes being in denial.

Peace!

[Captain Hilts]

134. We all take mental shortcuts. Smart people don't act on them. nt

[Junkdrawer]

37. Watch what you say. There's a new PC cop on this beat... n/t

[xultar]

42. It is almost as if I have to list everyone it doesn't apply to. To me if it isn't you

you won't be pissed. That's my philosophy. But apparently people don't get that.

[MADem]

38. Xultar, I am with you. It's WONDERFUL. When you look at the presidents past,

all of them, save perhaps Jack Kennedy, were cut from a Mayflowerish-Protestant cloth. All were WHITE, in any event, and all were MEN.

The Democrats have the momentum. They also have "the message." So long as we continue to press forward, in positive fashion, proposing SOLUTIONS, passing effective laws that help the average soul, we can keep the high ground, and America will gravitate to our chosen candidate.

And if it's Obama, or Hillary, or both on our ticket, well, good on us. And I don't think either one of them would have to rely on their "category" vote to win. It's their message that will do it.

One thing I've noticed not just here, but everywhere on these internets, is that there are always people who love to be rude and contrary--it's almost as though they get some sad and pathetic validation by being assholes. If you say up, they'll say down. Naysaying and negativity are their best pals. They love to poop in the punch, and they delight in getting people upset by coming up with any assertion that is sure to provoke an outraged reaction.

They don't pose their questions articulately, like, say, "Let's discuss the pros and cons of a Hillary/Obama candidacy." Nope, that's no fun. It's much more glee-inducing to say something that is COMPLETELY offensive (with a caveat that of course, THEY don't feel that way, but that is how "the general public" will perceive the issue--hmmmm!). Then, they sit back, rubbing their hands together (or something else, for all we frigging know!) and watch the fireworks--whoop-de-doo!

I often picture them as Casper Milquetoasts in person, the complete opposite of their internet personas, perhaps henpecked, slogging away in a miserable job with an authoritarian boss, or unemployed in Mama's basement--something like this:



Don't let them get to you...it's what they want, you see. Keep in mind one of my favorite maxims when you see those sorts of flameworthy discussions, the old "Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one!"

[xultar]

58. I'm excited about Obama having a chance and the seeds this plants

for the future.

[Captain Hilts]

52. They're also two Ivy League-trained lawyers, which shifts things backin their favor. nt

[xultar]

55. I'm not really in that arena. I'm not a fan of lawyer types.

[FrenchieCat]

60. Sorry Xultar, I don't "Trust" the media as far as I can throw them.....

so my suspicions are aroused due to the 24/7 coverage years before the election. Something is fishy, and time will tell what is making this wall to wall coverage smell;

Understand this, I think that both Hillary and Obama are wonderful and powerful leaders for the Democratic party to have. That being said, I just would hate to have to watch the media tear these two down when they feel it is most effective. The media can be merciless, and I for one Am tired of seeing good folks demonized....and I believe this is what will happen. So I'm just waiting for the train wreck that's for sure coming. I hope they both survive, because as you say, they are both more than viable as potential candidates!

[xultar]

69. True on not trusting the MSM. But think of the seeds being planted cuz of the Obama buzz.

That part I LOVE. Think of all the kids now who may run in the future because of the news today. That part I like.

I STILL LOVE MY CLARK though. He's got my vote for DAYUM sure. How about you? You still a Clarkie?

[FrenchieCat]

80. Clarkie through and through...although the more I think about it,

the less I want Wes to run. I don't believe that the media will ever give him a fair shake. As well, the Democratic party and many of its members won't ever recognize or appreciate what a Wes Clark has to offer as it's first 4 star general.....and if they don't recognize it now as we are at war, my hunch is that they never will. :(

I agree with you that the buzz on Clinton and Obama provides hope for many a youngster...my Harvard attending Black daughter to be counted in those numbers (she was glad to see Patrick Duval win in MA)

What I don't want is for my daughter and other youth to, as they are witnessing now, also end up witnessing the demonizing of great leaders that are in their image; because that will be as traumatic as what we are seeing currently and calling uplifting. In the end, as a nation....we will get not just what we deserve....and the media will certainly be the one to give it to us.

[xultar]

85. YOU ROCK! Major props to your daughter. I'm so proud!! THIS IS COOL!

I sort of feel the same way about Clark. I kinda don't want him to run...but if he does I'll be supporting him all the way.

Major kewl about the kid. Takes after you no doubt!

[FrenchieCat]

102. Who knows, maybe my daughter will run for Prez one day, and maybe it will be because

she witnessed what is happening today. Again, however, I just don't want the pushing for these two candidates to be so "over the top" as it has obviously been.....only to also be forced to watch it all come tumbling down .....which in the end might discourage more those we thought it would inspire. So I wish the media would cool it a bit and provide more balanced coverage on the '08 Democratic Horserace instead of exclusive Obamarama and the "Hillary's got it made if she runs" routines; as it is a bit more than it should be, IMO.

Scary thought as well is if those two are to stay under the microscope sort to speak; one mistake might be all that it takes, unfortunately. I remember when the Media was promoting General Clark......until he actually got into the race. Then it was smear and destruction and ignore time for him. Also the Dean Scream and the Kerry Joke makes me shiver.....as something as mundane as that could easily happen again.....at a time of the media's choosing.

So for the most part, I'm staying off the bandwagons created by the power-that-be at this point...and I'll stay with Clark, who if nothing else, has demonstrated his ability to stay in the frey without the media powers....in fact, in spite of the media powers. That says a whole lot more about Clark than does the frenzied press attention on Hillary and Obama says about them.

[xultar]

103. True. That is why I love Clark. He can scrap with the best and come out

better for the wear.

IF she does run your daughter has my vote. I'm sure the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree.

[FrenchieCat]

106. I'll let her know that she has at least 2 votes......

LOL! :headbang:

[HuffleClaw]

157. i think the media is gonna chew 'em up and spit out their bones

only question is WHEN. they did the same to dean and the dems did NOTHING to combat it. not a thing. but what i think is REALLY telling is that hillary and obama are being propped up as candidates by a RIGHT WING MEDIA MACHINE. that alone should be setting off alarm bells.

[endarkenment]

63. Almost all of the posts against Clinton and Obama

are about where they stand on issues, not about stupid crap like middle names or prep school funding. Where they each stand on the issues is far more important than gender or race. In fact their gender and race ought to not be an issue, positive or negative, at all, right?

[Goblinmonger]

67. Especially given that a little over 50 years ago

it would have been illegal for them to get married in many states.

[xultar]

73. And still getting killed now under the covers for it in some areas.

[Withywindle]

98. Obama himself would've been technically "illegitimate" in many states...

at the time that he was born (1961). His parents' marriage wouldn't have been recognized.

If people keep harping on how young he is, they have to acknowledge that that kind of legal racism wasn't very long ago at all.

[xultar]

109. So true. Best post in this entire thread.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Um, it's not "racist" to point out that Obama ISN'T experienced.

He's been in the Senate exactly two years. I think he'd make a fine addition to the ticket in '08, but I don't think he's ready for the top. I think he's going places, no question.

I do wonder about how quickly he has cozied up to the corporate establishment, and vice-versa.

I think the problem most have here with Hillary isn't her 2 X chromosomes so much as it is her behavior, her neo-con pandering, her bullshit twiddling around with bogus non-crap like Video games and flag burning. Hey; I used to LIKE Hillary. I still like her. But if you had asked me, in 2000, what I thought of a Hillary Presidency, my answer would have been "fuck yeah".

Now, either I've turned into a misogynist he-man woman hater in the past 6 years, or something else has happened. (Hey- why don't we run Barbara Boxer for President, and we can see just how Misogynist the DU anti-Hillary gang actually is)

As it is, I don't think people here like having the media pick our candidates for us. They've been ramming an "inevitable" Hillary nomination down our throats for months, (much to the glee of the Hannity-Limbaugh axis) and since that is looking increasingly unlikely, they have come up with a corporate-media approved "alternative", i.e. Obama.

Personally, I think the REAL alternative to Hillary scares the piss outta them:



But you know what? I'm glad Obama is in the process, I think the experience and the exposure is good for him, and I like the History, too. I sincerely hope he doesn't to contintue to try to gain cred with those all-powerful evangelical "values voters" (another DLC, corporate media lie) by taking additional pot-shots at atheists who don't appreciate their kids being forced to do a recitation to a deity every morning in PUBLIC SCHOOL... but honestly, I like the guy and I'm proud to have him in our party.

[xultar]

74. If it doesn't apply to you skip that one. Though whites in TN used it against Ford.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Actually, the problems I had with Ford as a candidate were very different.

I think his defeat (and the campaign against him was certainly shameful) had more to do with laying to rest the lie that the way for us to win is to run anti-choice, bible thumping Democrats.

But re: Obama, I would say the same thing about any Senator with 2 years experience. I think going from the House to the Senate is different than going from the Senate to the Presidency.

[xultar]

79. OK you would yes. But some won't say the same thing about a black candidate.

Racism does exist...even here @ DU.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. I don't doubt it. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. "Obama is a bad choice because he's black."

That's what a lot of the arguments boil down to. That's certainly a racist comment.

Now, a lot of people are saying it, because they're worried about all the racist republicans voting against him. This is a point. It is, however, a bit of a cowardly point. So, I'd have to say that bending over to racists because of cowardice, is something resembling racism.

And this "not experienced" argument is just plain stupid. I suspect most people who use it are too chicken to just say he's a bad choice because he's black.

That's my two cents.

Not saying it's everybody, not a blanket statement.

[xultar]

77. That is what I was trying to say but I didn't want to be that blunt. You are correct

some people will use the experience meme against him and they wouldn't against a white person of the same experience.

People just don't want to admit that racism exists. Even here.

[endarkenment]

121. You have seen that argument made here?

I guess I haven't been paying attention. I saw one thread a day or two ago with some incoherent rant about obama, prep school and stepfathers, but mostly the anti-obama crowd posts about his center/center-right positions on issues. Same with Clinton. Where are the posts saying obama is a bad choice because he is black or clinton a bad choice because she is a woman?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. I have.

In fact, I think his stance against gay marriage is about the only valid argument out there.

But the two arguments I see by far are:

1. He's "inexperienced."

and

2. There's no way the racists will allow it.

I believe there are a couple of such arguments in this thread, I know I've seen them in GD sometime today. I'm not going to name names.

That said, I think the sort of people posting these arguments are the usual "I'm so concerned" type characters.

[swimboy]

82. Inexperienced?

True, Obama has never been president of the United States before.

OTOH, Bush was governor of the largest of the continental U.S. And what an experience THAT has been.

[xultar]

89. And he ruined TX. Turned it into a third...FOURTH world country

[AtomicKitten]

83. It just means THEIR candidate isn't a woman or black.

[qanda]

88. Well, I for one am recommending this thread

Because I could not agree with you more. I've been scratching my head over some of the posts I see about Obama and you have to wonder where it comes from.

[xultar]

93. That's what I'm sayin!!!! I had to say something. It was looking strange.

[Bluebear]

94. I did too.

I'm glad xultar put it into words.

[Bluebear]

90. Those of us who are not straight white Christian men would love a place ...

... at the table. For these two to even be getting this kind of coverage is historic, even if they don't win, and neither appears to be my candidate right now...but fer pete's sake, CELEBRATE them running!

[xultar]

92. That's what I'm sayin! AMEN!

[Karenina]

97. Man-o-man

That sure took long enuf! ;-) :hi:

[The Stranger]

96. Instead of welcoming a new age in the U.S., the media attacks Pelosi, Obama, Hilary.

Instead of recognizing how this could show true progress for a nation with a history of racism and sexism, the media attack these individuals.

Strange days indeed.

[xultar]

99. TRUE DAT!

[newsdude]

101. What if it was Condileeza and Colin Powell?

Don't judge by sex and race.

Judge by the quality of the candidate

[NoSheep]

108. I'd vomit. For the Condi part...Powell didn't do enough and I don't understand why.

I him as being farther to the right than most democrats I know. I love Obama though, and I'm very excited about all the interest in him. It's a good sign. He seems like a person worthy of the people's respect. I can never understand why people think they can trust someone like Bush, Rush, Cheney, etc. Can't they see these men have no honor?

[xultar]

110. I like Powell. Hate Condi. So?

[newsdude]

113. So

The point is simple.
Hillary's sex and Obama's race are what they are.
It doesn't make them good candidates unless you happen to think highly of them for what they do/say.

Personally, I can't stand Hillary. She's a right-wing democrat.
Obama seems like he's taking his career that way, too.

I'm looking for Democrats who'll strengthen union jobs, make college affordable and do the other things that were once Democratic party stables.

Free traders can jump the aisle, IMO.

[endarkenment]

119. You like Powell?

What is to like? I really don't get the DU powell fan club.

[xultar]

130. I like him. Don't get me wrong. He did his masters bidding for sure.

But he is a good man. I think he'd make a great President. If he ran against a Dem I'd have to say I'd vote for the bruva. If he ran as a rethug I'd be my first rethug vote in my life.

[Miss Chybil]

111. Amen! nt

[IronLionZion]

114. Sure the coverage is historic

and I would love to have a woman or a non-white minority run for president. But there are many women out there who are much better than Hillary but they don't have the insider connections you need to run for president in this country.

I'm very glad Obama is getting media coverage. There was a time when a woman or a minority would NEVER get any media coverage and wouldn't even seriously try to run for president. This IS historic and I'm proud to be living in such a time.

But I still support Gore for president with Clark or Obama as VP.

[Catherine Vincent]

115. Consider when Carol Mosley Braun was running.

She's black and a woman. She didn't get nearly as many attacks as Obama. I think the attacks are early and strong against Obama because he might have a chance. The same for Hillary just because she may have a chance of winning.

[xultar]

129. Carol didn't really have a chance. Notice I said CHANCE.

[aikoaiko]

116. You have a point (its historic and worth celebrating), but those types of questions

have always been asked of some people.

Du wasn't around, but people wondered if Willian Jefferson Clinton's name was too southern, and how did he afford to go to all his fancy schools if he grew up so poor.

Geraldine Ferraro and Eliabeth Dole already broke some of the historic boundaries for beginning a campaign with a decent chance at winning.

Equality means getting asked the difficult too, no?

[nashville_brook]

125. mondale/ferraro suffered a HUMILATING loss

it broke my heart. that's part of the reason why i want the difficult questions asked and answered NOW rather than after they get the nod.

[earth mom]

117. Obama & Hillary are DLC-that's why I don't like them. No doubt others probably feel the same.

FYI-the truth about Obama & Hillary has NOTHING to do with gender or race. That Obama and Hillary are corporate whore mongers is the reason they should not be supported.

Actually, I'd love to see Oprah run-she'd win in a landslide. Since she refuses to do so, then I'd rather see Gore, RFK Jr. or Edwards run since they have goals and ideals I admire.

[Wheezy]

118. Just wanted to say...

...that I understand what you are trying to say. Your OP seems clear enough to me.

Sometimes you have to just ignore the folks (yep, I use that term all the time -- didn't know it meant anything -- that's just how I grew up :eyeroll: ) who want to fight just for the sake of fighting.

And I agree that the coverage is historical and positive for the future generations. I want my kids to know that they can do or be anything, even the president. (though I really wouldn't wish that job on anybody)

[porphyrian]

120. They aren't the best ones running, sex and race aren't my primary issues, and this won't be...

...the last opportunity, this is simply the first, and that isn't a good enough reason alone.

[endarkenment]

122. Jesse Jackson.

Jackson ran a credible primary campaign. Obama is not the first.

[porphyrian]

124. True, sorry, didn't mean to forget Jesse Jackson. - n/t

[xultar]

131. Jesse didn't have a chance.

[endarkenment]

177. Because he was black?

Your dismissal of Jackson sounds to me remarkably similar to what you are complaining about in your OP. The mainstream media of course agreed with your dismissal at the time. However the facts are that Jackson was one of the front runners, regardless of what the talking heads had to say.

"In the primaries, Jackson, who had been written off by pundits as a fringe candidate with little chance at winning the nomination, surprised many when he took third place behind Senator Gary Hart and former Vice President Walter Mondale, who eventually won the nomination. Jackson garnered 3.5 million votes and won five primaries, all in the South."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson

Jesse Jackson ran a serious and credible campaign. Oh by the way, Jackson was not the first either. That honor goes to that remarkable black woman, Shirley Chisolm.

[nashville_brook]

123. the media attention NOW is a great thing if you're a fan of either

let the country GET OVER the black-ness and woman-ness of the two of them and let them be judged in the context of their primary opponents.

and yes -- i think the country NEEDS to see black folks and women folks seriously pursuing powerful leadership roles.

this is all GOOD STUFF.

having said that, i want to WAIT until the primaries to pick my candidate. i want to hear everyone's ideas and size them up against the competition. i simply can't put my hopes and dreams behind anyone until i know the rest of the field.

aaaaaaaaand... the reason why i'm not jumping for joy with either of these candidates is that regardless of their race or gender, i think there's potential candidates who reflect my hopes and dreams for the country, i.e. a less corporate union.

[WI_DEM]

126. Many on DU aren't that progressive. I especially hate the way they

hide their bigotry behind "Obama isn't experienced enough" or a "black man can't win" or "a woman can't win" blah! blah! blah! Bottom line is many will tear down others if they aren't the candidate they support and they'll use all sorts of stupid arguments to do so.

[nashville_brook]

135. progressives don't all march to the same tune. remember Nader?

supposedly you weren't a "good" progressive if you didn't throw your support his way.

[smoogatz]

128. Well, in fact, Obama doesn't have a lot of experience in national politics.

But neither did Lincoln, when he was elected President. In fact, I think Obama will be everybody's choice for VP, and that's what he's running for. It's a very, very smart move on his part--it sets him up as a dominant candidate eight years from now.

[lostnfound]

136. GO Boxer & Conyers!! GO Sheila Jackson-Lee!!

I'm sure I could think of some more but those are good starts.

PS Not to say I wouldn't vote for the other two, but please don't overlook our little problem with a corporatocracy. I think we need boat-rockers now.

[Skidmore]

137. I support Obama...on a

Clark/Obama ticket.

[nam78_two]

138. Actually you are quite right

It is historic and exciting that Hillary and Obama have a shot at the top job :)-I sometimes forget how backward this country actually is (specially given that India and Pakistan have had female Prime Ministers) and that aspect of it is mostly completely lost on me (and I am a female and a minority).
Thats what comes of living in academia's ivory tower world ;)-one starts forgetting about racism and sexism, at least as applied to picking a prez. nominee.

I never thought of H or O in those terms, more just as very centrist Dems. With Obama also, I have to confess to a purely personal bias against him because of this almost Backstreet-Boyish fan flurry surrounding him (it was what irritated me about Edwards in 2004) "Oh he is so handsome", "He has such charisma", "He loves his kids!"...But, I agree thats just an immature response on my part and has nothing to do with the candidates themselves. Obama could be a decent candidate I guess-I just get irritated by media-hyped "Obamamania", fans writing songs about him etc. I would almost certainly have found that sort of stuff annoying when directed at the Kennedys back in the day.
I wish Americans could look beyond the surface stuff, especially on such important matters.

As an anti-war environmentalist Kucinich and Gore are the only ones that really interest me and actually I also like Kerry because of track record on pursuing the Iran Contra/BCCI stuff.

[bicentennial_baby]

139. Please don't hold Indira Gandhi up as an example...

The woman displayed the worst authoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies of the entire Nehru family, and certainly also the worst of any post-Colonial era prime minister in India...

[nam78_two]

140. I did not hold her up as an example of a good leader

I did not say India and Pakistan had good female leaders. My point was that their gender (granted with a heavy does of nepotism-which some would say could apply to Hillary too) did not prevent their being elected into positions of power. I agree with you assessment of IG.

I am certain that any female or minority leader can have the potential to suck every bit as much as any straight white male. That isn't the issue being debated here.

[xultar]

154. Can you believe we haven't had a women or a ethnic president?

Isn't that nuts? I can't believe it! When I sit and think about it even I'm shocked.

[endarkenment]

179. what the heck is an ethnic president?

You probably aren't old enough to remember that Jack Kennedy was considered an ethnic candidate due to his being irish catholic.

[Malikshah]

142. I don't question Barack or Hillary. I question the DLC types who

shove them down our throat and tell us to swallow.

Excuse me, I think I'll spit.

[Swamp Rat]

150. k&r

:kick:

[xultar]

155. Haven't seen you in a while. How you doin down there? You o.k.?

How about your family and friends?

[HuffleClaw]

158. this reminds me of the knee-jerk 'defence' of israel that pops up so often

as for questioning candidates, when someone tosses their hat into the ring (or when someone tosses it for them) as a potential presidential candidate EVERYTHING about them is fair game, that has been long since proven (ok, unless yer bush, for some reason he was mostly immune to investigations of his ever so murky past, but that is another kettle of fish).

also, as i've pointed out elsewhere, the hubbub about obama (and hillary for that matter) has been largely the product of a right wing media machine, it is the republicans who have been, for a long time now, trumpeting hillary as a candidate and now they've chosen obama, which i find very suspicious.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

163. Some Times A Cigar Is Just A Cigar....

People dig Obama and that's what the media is reporting:

[Generic Other]

159. Thanks Xultar for saying this

I have taken a break from DU because I can't handle it. Sorry. I have no fight left in me. Obama is a good man.
I would be honored to have him as my president.

[xultar]

169. I see what you mean. Why is it that people are so rude on the web?

I've been on several boards and the level of civility has dropped to beyond low.

I'm thinking of taking a break too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

162. If Experience And Wisdom Are Synonymous Why Did Kerry Vote For The Iraq War?

Obama in 08...

It will be a redemptive moment for a country that hasn't had a redemptive moment in a long, long time...

[xultar]

171. Oh and don't tell me the destruction of TX equates to wisdom enough to win in 2000.

Experience is used as an excuse. Even I know that.

[BoneDaddy]

164. Somehow I am confused

We can't criticize Hillary or Obama because is we do we are misogynist and racist?

Wow... talk about hiding behind "victimhood". The main concerns, as I see it, are whether they are viable candidates.

Would I love to see a woman and a black man in office? Absolutely. But the naivete and ignorance about whether the rest of the country will vote for them is staggering.

We need VIABLE candidates, ones that will win. If a woman or a black man are the most VIABLE candidates then they will get my vote, but I am not going to support someone who has no chance just so I can feel good about electing a member of a specific groupw who has traditionally be excluded from power.

We need to THINK realistically and honestly about this and stop making very important decisions based upon our feelings.

[xultar]

168. Nope. That's not what I said. Questioning where he got his money for school...

when it wouldn't be done for a white candidate is racist.

No one questioned where Kerry got his money for school.

Ding Obama on his decisions. Affiliations. Stances. Not on his NAME or where he got money to go to prep school and college.

SIMPLE.

If you'd really read my post you wouldn't have posted this reply.

BTW...I don't support OBAMA I'm still a Clark fan but it doesn't make his run any less historical and if he does get the nom...he will win.

[Brewman_Jax]

166. So true

and it's sad. :(

[xultar]

173. IT is sad. I haven't seen anyone ding Obama on his stances only that he's getting play

in the media, his middle name, and his $$$ for his education.

None of which mean shit. But it is weird people are using that to rip him and not his stances or decisions on issues.
Makes me wonder...

[Brewman_Jax]

176. I see the same round of excuses

he's new, he's not experienced, we need a viable candidate, blah, blah, blah, etc. :eyes:

Didn't stop Ah-nold, Bush*, Ray-gun, or the republicans. For that matter, didn't stop Kennedy, Carter, Ferraro, or the democratic candidates. Didn't stop Chisholm or Jesse Jackson for that matter.

[skyblue]

175. When Obama talks people listen. We need to be listened to. His

presence HELPS. Anyone who puts down a candidate (frontrunner Hillary for example) is hurting that candidate if they become either the Presidential candidate or VP candidate in the nov. 08 election. Infighting is not productive.

[jeffrey_X]

180. Great post!

eom