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Unpopular in Latin America: Shrub, CHAVEZ, CASTRO. Losing (more) ground in MX: OBRADOR

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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 06:21 PM
Original message
Unpopular in Latin America: Shrub, CHAVEZ, CASTRO. Losing (more) ground in MX: OBRADOR
Edited on Tue Dec-12-06 06:28 PM by UTUSN
Please, I stay out of the almost daily "Oaxaca threads," only partly from being asked to by the Oxaca poster, but mostly (believe it or not) from respect for several of the posters there whose idealism I admire. An exception was during the Mexican inaugural, where there was a flame war with lots of really really WRONG information being put out there. I stay out of the "Happy birthday, Fidel" and "Get well soon, Fidel" threads on the grounds that they are personal signs of individual good will and the same as how I once begged a DU Skeptic to leave the DU astrologers alone, to let them have their harmless interest.

So I ask the Oaxaca posters and the Fidel, AMLO, and Hugo admirers to let this thread die its own natural death, having its own right to exist just as much as the Oaxaca/Fidel/Hugo/AMLO threads.

In other words, barf on "the-AP/El-Universal/OPPENHEIMER/the-PAN are EXTREME WINGNUT TOOLS" and personal attacks.


*******QUOTE*******

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/4395255.html

Dec. 11, 2006, 10:17PM

Poll: Mexicans disapprove of Lopez Obrador's tactics


Associated Press

MEXICO CITY — A majority of Mexicans disapprove of a leftist candidate's decision to declare himself the nation's "legitimate" president after losing the election to his conservative competitor, while the percentage who would vote for him if the elections were held again today has fallen precipitously, according to a poll published today.

The poll in the daily newspaper El Universal also showed that a majority believe the tactics of former candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who has pledged to undermine the administration of President Felipe Calderon, would damage overall support for the left in Mexico.

Of those surveyed, 67 percent said they disapproved of Lopez Obrador's decision to swear himself in as the leader of a parallel government, while only 26 percent said they approved. Asked if they agreed with the formation of an alternate Cabinet, 67 percent of the respondents said no, while 25 percent said they were in favor. ....

Two similar surveys, conducted earlier this month and in November, respectively, showed that about 65 percent disagreed with Lopez Obrador's decision to declare himself president, while a majority also opposed plans by him and his supporters to disrupt Calderon's assumption of office. ....


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/andres_oppenheimer/16205845.htm

Latin American 'left' has been shifting to the right


BY ANDRES OPPENHEIMER
aoppenheimer@MiamiHerald.com

As 2006 comes to a close, the conventional wisdom among Latin America watchers is that the region has shifted further to the left. But, as often happens, the conventional wisdom may be deceiving. ....

• Asked to rank Latin American leaders on a scale from zero to 10, the most popular president was Brazil's Lula da Silva, with a 5.8 grade, followed by Chile's Michelle Bachelet (5.5), and Colombia's Alvaro Uribe (5.4).

• Chávez ranked among the least popular leaders regionwide, alongside President Bush: both got a 4.6 grade. And Cuba's Fidel Castro was the least popular of all leaders, with a 4.4 grade.

Many analysts say that what's happening in Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador is not a triumph of the left but a triumph of petro-populism. ....

If anything, there are many countries where ''leftist'' leaders are following Chile's successful free market economic opening, and a few countries in which petro-populist leaders are giving money away without worrying about building a solid base for long-term growth. ....

********UNQUOTE*******
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. one BIG problem....
if left versus right, then what do these terms really mean. simple. left means the needs of the many take priority over the privileges of the few. since in latin america, the privileges of the few have superceded the needs of the many for hundreds/years, and the many poor vastly outnumber the few rich, then how can someone who panders to the few be more popular then chavez, who just won reelection by a sizable extent. 20 years ago, this kind of bullshit might have gotten by, but bush has forver destroyed the pigmedia as effective voice -they are liars, and always have/will be liars
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. If Andres Oppenheimer says it, it must be true.
Edited on Tue Dec-12-06 07:02 PM by Mika
:rofl:

While he spins, one might want to read this interpretation of the poll..

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brlatinamericara/266.php?nid=&id=&pnt=266&lb=brla
Venezuela, whose economy has been buoyed by high oil prices, was Latin America’s third most optimistic country in the spring of 2006 with 66 percent saying it was headed in the right direction, according to the poll.

--

The two countries that liked Castro least liked Bush most. :eyes:


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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. To 1&2: My core disagreement with the threads about L.America
Edited on Tue Dec-12-06 07:09 PM by UTUSN
here are that they almost always attempt to portray the politics OVER THERE in the TERMS and political language that applies OVER HERE. The PRI/PAN/PRD are NOT the Democratic/Rethug/Nazi parties.

And post #1 merely attacks "the media". Methinks if the poll with a +/- 3 backed up what he WANTED it to say, it would be just a peachy media poll.

Post #2 does exactly the SLAM THE LINK thing. Nowhere did I ascribe deity on OPPENHEIMER. If I HADN'T provided a link, THAT would have been a HUGH!!1 failing!!!!1
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I live in Miami. Oppenheimer has a column in the Miami Herald that I read.
Edited on Tue Dec-12-06 07:17 PM by Mika
IMO, he is wrong 98% of the time. Plus, he's been carrying water for W* for 6 years, and was carrying water for Reagan and Poppy - especially on their fruitless anti Cuba policies.

Note that I didn't just slam Oppenheimer's opinion of the poll, I also provided a link with a different interpretation of the poll that he spun to the right.

Nowhere in your slam of my post did I imply that you "ascribe deity on OPPENHEIMER".
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Oppenheimer & AP Sources!!!!
I am so not impressed. Could the OP have found any more biased propagandists for the right???

:rofl:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Hardly.
And just where did the "Happy Birthday Fidel" and "Get Well Soon, Fidel" threads appear? :shrug:

I wish the OP had posted some links to back that up.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oh, so you didn't attack before, eh? What about now?
Edited on Tue Dec-12-06 07:32 PM by UTUSN
The threads you (and I) cited appeared in DU on those occasions. You're around as much as I am. You can find them.

Notice the sources of the sarcasm (post below) and personal attacks ensuing, as predicted.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. No attack. Just wishing for you to post links..
.. of those threads with your aforementioned subject lines. I've never seen threads with those subjects. Methinks that you're exaggerating.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What would be MY motivation of finding propagandists for the right?
My bias is against totalitarians of any stripe, including from the Left. I have read OPPENHEIMER exactly once (this time) and I "found" it refreshing to counter the BIAS and accompanying misinformation that is routinely presented here on Hispanic politics. Just as I oppose the most rosy-lensed while VOTING FOR them when they run under the Democratic Party label.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. only you know your motivations
I merely recognized the sources for what they are, pure RW propaganda. Not a bit of unbiased reporting to be found.
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Because everyone knows that..
whatever a RWer says, for any reason, is a lie. So if a Right-Winger says the sky is blue it's a lie because you know the sky is actually purple. :crazy:
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. um, yeah
Edited on Tue Dec-12-06 08:01 PM by leftchick
very compelling argument, if that is what it was.

:eyes:
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. um yeah
roughly as compelling as your arguement all AP news stories are biased.

:eyes:
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I never said all
not even many. My, my you seem to be projecting here.

:eyes:
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Quite right, you never said all AP stories were biased...
You simply said:

leftchick (1000+ posts)
Tue Dec-12-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #7

9. only you know your motivations

I merely recognized the sources for what they are, pure RW propaganda. Not a bit of unbiased reporting to be found.

So technically, no you never said all AP stories were biased, you simply said there was "not a bit" of unbiased reporting. Apparently the only thing I am projecting is a paraphrasing of your own words.

:eyes:
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. lol!
another EXCELLENT analysis by everywhatever!

:rofl:
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. ....
So if I understand the situation correctly, you came to this thread simply to tell the OP that his sources were right-wing and therefore they had to be lies, and now are flaming me for pointing out that you used hyperbole in trying to "make your case" as to why the sources were flawed?

:wtf:
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. You certainly don't, yet you are perfectly willing to take the leap.
Even when I TELL you my motivations. The other poster IMPLIED that I lied about the Happy-birthday threads. You IMPLIED that I had wingnut motivations. That's the way these topics go: So have at it.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Then put up.
Please back up your assertions that there were "Happy Birthday Fidel" and "Get Well Soon, Fidel" threads.

I firmly believe that there were no threads with those subject lines on DU, and you probably know that I do look for, follow, and participate in many of the DU 'Cuba threads'. Now, I could be wrong.. so IF there are DU threads with subject/topic lines of "Happy Birthday Fidel" and "Get Well Soon, Fidel" then please produce the links to back up that claim.

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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I said there were THREADS, did not say SUBJECT LINES.
Why are you changing the IMPLICATION of lying to EXAGGERATING? It's all the same kind of personal insult. I did not Save the links for you. They happened, that is all. If you don't want to believe, for whatever your own reasons, that there are posters here who wished Fidel a happy birthday, it's your thing. You can start your very own thing called "La Cosa Mia." They (those threads/posts) will happen again the next time Fidel has a health downturn or a birthday.

By the way, add to my list of antipathies: BATISTA (besides Fidel) AND the BATISTA-ista CIA-Cuban Exiles of the first generation--for the flamers flinging the wingnut implication around.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yes, you did say "threads" in OP. NOW you say only some posts.
You said "I stay out of the "Happy birthday, Fidel" and "Get well soon, Fidel" threads", and as it turns out there are no such threads, only few posts by few posters.

You are indeed exaggerating in your OP. There are no "Happy birthday, Fidel" and "Get well soon, Fidel" threads on DU.

I'm not personally insulting anyone, just pointing out that your claim of such threads is an exaggeration.

Its kinda pointless flaming to say that you stay out of DU threads that don't exist on DU.



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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have learned to distrust AP completely on the leftist revolution in Latin
America. Their reports are just laughable. And the Miami Herald is not much better, especially on Castro/Cuba.

A good source on Chavez and Venezuela (and, to some extent on other South America countries): www.venezuelanalysis.com.

I was impressed with the Chavez opposition candidate Rosales' immediate concession, in the recent presidential election, after Chavez won it with 63% of the vote, in highly monitored voting. There were substantial rumors that the opposition was plotting another coup attempt, intending to use false polls saying Rosales was getting close, to instigate riots and involve the military in unseating Chavez. The opposition in Venezuela--funded by US tax dollars--has tried a violent military coup, a crippling oil professionals' strike, and an absurd and wasteful recall election (which Chavez won handily by about 60%). They just seem to be lazy, spoiled, whiney, privileged troublemakers--like our freepers--who keep expecting the country to tip over and pour all the oil profits into their pockets, as before. Rosales distanced himself from them, in his concession, and pledged to provide a RESPONSIBLE opposition and constructive criticism to the Chavez government.

I was surprised and impressed. I think that South America's huge, peaceful, democratic, leftist (majorityist) revolution is on very solid footing. It is a sea change from the bottom, not the top. It's about the people, not the leaders. This revolution has swept South America--in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Bolivia, Venezuela and (a few weeks ago) Ecuador.* (And I think it will likely sweep Peru in the next election cycle; Colombia and Paraguay might take a while). It's really a regional thing. It's a common recognition across the continent, among the South Americans, that they want to be done with US interference--past brutalities, and the more recent World Bank/IMF/global corporate predator exploitation. This large group of leftist governments are moving toward an EU type organization, a common currency, and much more economic and political cooperation than in the past. Strength in numbers, as they say. A common theme among these governments is rejection of NAFTA and other unfair trade agreements with the US. South America could be a powerhouse trade group--but they do have decades and centuries of exploitation to overcome, particularly neglect of the vast poor population that has developed. And this is where Venezuela's, Bolivia's and Ecuador's oil, gas, minerals and other rich natural resources come in. I think it's amusing--and also disgusting--how the AP article on Chavez's recent re-election says he is "buying" the support of the poor. Well, if using your country's biggest resource--oil--to provide schools, adult literacy classes, and medical clinics, where there never have been any before, and to provide a free university education to all qualified students, and to provide small business loans and grants, and help to small farmers--if these things are "buying" the poor, then a lot more of such purchasing needs to occur. For this is EXACTLY what South America needs to do--pour its resources into development of its people, and thus of diversified enterprise, with an educated population, decent wages and living conditions, and a larger professional/artisan class, and a decent life for all.

Has AP ever said that Bush has "bought" the support of the super-rich with big tax cuts for the super-rich? No, they reserve this criticism for Chavez, who is responding to the needs of the poor, who are in turn responding to him, because he listens to them--and who is also doing the best thing for his country, and with the government's oil riches. This the way to prosperity: education, good health, seeding businesses, looking to food self-sufficiency, maximum participation in government, utilization of everyone's talents, creativity and genius. And these, too, are common themes of all the governments mentioned above: how to raise up the poor, to everyone's benefit; how to be a democracy, with a government that is responsive to all of its people, not just the rich few.

This revolution is succeeding all across South America--by means of strong grass roots organization and work on transparent elections and other aspects of democracy. It is an amazing recovery, considering what South America has been through--particularly at US hands. I think Mexico will join in because it will be to Mexico's benefit to join in. Latin America needs to pull together, and create its own policy, and its own trade rules, looking to mutual prosperity. The Corporate Rulers have a strong grip on Mexico, and are imposing severe and brutal repression on the people of Oaxaca. But those who are doing this on behalf of the Corporate Rulers--Pres. Calderon and Gov. Ruiz--will lose, in the end. Whether people currently approve of Lopez Obrador's recent decisions and actions, the truth is that there is vast injustice in Mexico which must be, and will be, corrected. Mexicans themselves will not continue to tolerate the unfairness. And, as I said, as other Latin America countries begin to experience the benefits of self-determination and freedom from onerous corporate exploitation, Mexico will want to be part of it.

---------

*(Ecuador's low 8% for people approving the direction of the country--in the poll above--would likely be much different now, with the election a week ago, of the very popular Rafael Correa, who is aligned politically with Venezuela and Bolivia, and the other leftist governments. That 8% is why Correa was elected--the fascist, corporate ruler policies of the past. )
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. Three times I've clicked on this thread just to not be able to finish reading it once
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. If they say it, then it must be true. Welcome to my world.
Having lived in Latin America, you can be sure the have's do not like the populist (read communist) leftists leaders no matter how popular they are with the majority in numbers, but minority influence, laboring classes. The RW press propagandizing begins it seems.

I think we got a dose of Bush "love" from the press here in the USA in the last six years to know that this is horse pucky. I distinctly remember fawning anchors on all the media stations talk adoringly about Mr. Bush as "this very popular" president after the inauguration while my husband and I needed cranes to lift our dropped jaws back into place.

I can imagine the more privileged classes, who benefit from their fascist, banana republic governments being polled about this to the exclusion of the working under classes, because those people don't count in the public opinion of the minority elite in most Latin American countries. I lived in those places and I know what goes on in their corruption ridden governments and classist societies.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I'm with you. We've shared common positions many times.
My point in this thread was to point up the misrepresentation in some of the threads on Hispanic topics. I get flamed by the "Farther" Left idealists really badly, but they do it at a personal, really ugly, level.

Please let the thread die off. Kicking it only prolongs the misery. Thanks. See ya in happier threads.
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