Students Told To Urinate In Bottle - Some Call Bathroom Escort Policy Too Harsh

[Kadie]

Students Told To Urinate In Bottle
Some Call Bathroom Escort Policy Too Harsh

POSTED: 8:26 am PST December 13, 2006


SALISBURY, Md. -- School officials are deciding the fate of a Maryland teacher at Salisbury Middle School who instructed three boys who needed a bathroom break to urinate into a soda bottle.

Wicomico County school policy requires eighth-graders to be escorted to the restroom, and the teacher suggested the bottle Friday when an escort was not available.

Preston Whittington told The Salisbury Daily Time his 13-year-old nephew was told to urinate into a soda bottle along with two other boys.

The county's assistant superintendent for Student Services, Allen Brown, told the paper it was "a dumb thing to do." Brown is not releasing the teacher's name, calling it a personnel matter. He said interim Superintendent Thomas Field will review the incident and decide what will happen to the teacher.

snip...
Brown said monitoring of bathroom breaks began because the school had been having problems with students defacing the restrooms -- such as not urinating in the appropriate area.

Brown told the paper that the boys who urinated in a bottle needed to use the restroom around the same time. When the teacher called for an escort and nobody came, the boys were given a bottle. The teacher did not want to leave the entire class unsupervised. Whittington said the bathroom rules are too strict. "I'm a retired correctional officer and we didn't run things like this," he said.

more...
http://www.kcra.com/education/10525311/detail.html

[rodeodance]

1. sometimes i think the world has gone mad!

[dysfunctional press]

10. think?

i've known it for a long time.

[MadHound]

2. Sounds like the teacher was caught between conflicting rules.

A teacher absolutely cannot leave a classroom unattended. However the students can't go to the bathroom unattended. The teacher was left trying to reconcile these conflicting rules, and did so poorly. Frankly I would have just let the kids go.

It is a horrible policy that should be axed.

[dysfunctional press]

14. why not let the kids go one at a time?

depending on the students, i could understand not letting them go enmasse, but the teacher should have been able to come up with a better solution.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. The restrooms are probably locked

and the escorts have the keys.

[AwakeAtLast]

80. Yup, we have creative "painters" at our Middle School

The walls used to be soaked in urine and feces routinely. They started locking the restrooms and started a similar rule. No more "artwork".

BTW, kids who do this need some serious help, IMHO.

[MaraJade]

105. Here in Harrisburg

Kids did $3.5 million in damage to school facilities in this way. Guess who had to pay?
The taxpayers! The unsanitary condition at the school could not be allowed to continue and
so the taxpayers ended up paying to have it fixed.

Kids that do this sort of thing are in need of mental health counseling. Their parents need to
be made to pay for the damages or clean up the mess themselves. That would end the need for bathroom monitors.

[TahitiNut]

3. Would a female student be told to do the same?

Sounds discriminatory to me. :silly:

[BlackVelvet04]

92. She might....

but it would get really messy. ;-)

[jsamuel]

4. Their stupid rules put the teacher in a horrible situation.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. Sounds like at least some of the students are behaving like

animals. No wonder the teacher is at wits end. The least you can expect of a human is that they piss in the toilet when they are in the men's room. It's gone too far when monitors are needed so that the little piggies don't piss the floor.

[kestrel91316]

13. You should see restrooms in Los Angeles in typical businesses,

like Barnes and Noble, department stores, nice restaurants..........

People are PIGS here. In the women's room it is common to have urine on toilet seats, urine on floors, used toilet paper on floors, toilets stuffed to overflowing with toilet paper and seat protectors...........

[dysfunctional press]

19. i used to clean the restrooms at a discount retailer...

(does anyone remember zayres?) and believe me- the women's bathroom was by far the worst, for graffiti and general slobbishness...
the men's room was a differnt story- someone(s) had carved a hole between the two stalls, and it was being used to have sex between the stalls. after a few incidents of guys being caught doing this, they decided to take the doors off of the stalls.
when that didn't stop it, i had to seal up the hole using two circles of sheet metal and about a dozen bolts.

[WernhamHogg]

53. When I was in high school, I worked at Burger King

Not once, but TWICE some guy went into the mens room and took a shit ON THE FLOOR in the middle of the restroom. Not saying that the womens room was any better...as a woman I have seen how disgusting some women can be when I've attempted to use public restrooms myself.

Still, what this teacher did was way over the line and I'm sure there had to be a more reasonable approach.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. I used to work in a bar

One night a guy took a shit in a urinal and someone else puked in the sink!

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. My hubby works for a school district as a maintenance person

He spends most of every summer repairing restrooms. Middle schools are the worst. Kids tear down the stall walls, rip the urinals off the wall and have even ripped out the toilets. This escort policy described in the OP doesn't surprise us at all.

[Zookeeper]

89. Wow. What kind of district does your husband...

work for? My kids have attended (one currently attends) a middle school that is economically and culturally diverse, but has very little vandalism.

Why do you think his district has so many kids acting out?

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. It's urban

but my kids tell me the bathrooms in their suburban middle school were bad too. I would imagine the kids who tear up restrooms have poor home training. And there is the crowd effect - I am careful to not let kids go to the restroom in groups.

I am also willing to bet there is more vandalism in your district than you know about. They usually jump pretty fast to clean it up.

[Zookeeper]

109. There very well may be more than I know about...

but, if toliets and stalls were being ripped out and destroyed, I'm absolutely certain that our school district officials would be very vocal about informing all parents in order to put a stop to it.

Kids in our middle school are suspended for far lesser offenses.

[MaraJade]

106. One school district here has a simple solution

They strictly enforce a "Parents Pay" policy. A camera is mounted outside the restrooms to see
who comes and goes and maintenance employees check every hour on the hour.

If damage occurs, the parents of every child who used the room within the hour are contacted
and fined.

As a result, no damage.

[Zookeeper]

108. That sounds like a good idea...

I imagine a fine could create a real hardship for some families, but I'll bet it would put a stop to that child's vandalism (at least at school).

However, I don't see how they can fine the parents of every child who uses the restroom during that hour. Are they trying to scare the other kids into reporting on the child who is doing the vandalizing?

[NashVegas]

111. That Or

Silently inviting the parents of the kids who didn't vandalize to pressure the ones of those who did.

I'm not sure how I feel about it; on one hand, it's more authority-monitoring behavior, which I think is the last thing some kids need. I somehow wonder if the trashing of the rest-rooms is a type response to all the authoritarian control (and lack of loving parental supervision) they face elsewhere. OTO, you can't go around shitting on the floor, etc.

[deepthought42]

6. Oh for the love of...

Remind me to stay away from the Eastern Shore....

[majorjohn]

7. I don't get it

Were the restrooms locked and can only be opened by the escort? Otherwise, I don't see how going to the bathroom by themselves was not an option?

[noonwitch]

8. I'm not a guy, but wouldn't that be difficult to manage?

Aim-wise, that is.

[majorjohn]

9. Difficult to manage what?

Boys can pee in bottles, and so can men. The problem is that they were forced to pee in bottles when they could have gone to the restrooms instead.

[AndyTiedye]

24. Much More Chance of Making a Mess Than Letting them Use the Bathroom

[Sapere aude]

23. I guess it would be a matter of the proximity of the bottle to the ..... OH never mind!

[cboy4]

26. Hehehe. It's not like you set the bottle/can on the ground

and then pee down at it.

That would be a disaster! LOL.

You're supposed to position your "business" as close to the opening of the bottle/can as possible. ;)


On edit....I am NOT advocating children urinating into cans and bottles.

I would go through the roof if my son was forced to do something like that!

[noonwitch]

65. I was just thinking how small the tops of bottles are, is all

but the teacher(s) involved are crazy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. What bullshit! I've had my son be DENIED the bathroom and I told him

he has my permission to just get up and GO when he needs to. If a teacher has a problem with that, he/she can deal with ME. This Gastapo bullshit has to stop. Don't they know that not going to the bathroom when one needs to go can lead to SERIOUS problems like Kidney and urinary tract infections? Do they want to start paying the medical bills of the children? I think not. Dumb asses. Making them urinate in a bottle is BEYOND ridiculous!:grr:

[Skarbrowe]

36. Yep. My partner is a teacher and has bladder damage from not

being able to go to the bathroom for hours at a time. They have what is called "block scheduling" where each class is over 2 hours long. She taught in portables for years and I know I shouldn't tell this very sad fact, but she actually had a large bottle that she would have to use when/if there were no students in her classroom during class changes. I was literally in shock when I found out this is the way many, many over crowded school systems operate. The students would be able to take a "pass" to the bathroom, but they would have to be very convincing in their need to go. But, the teachers could get in trouble if they called for security to watch their classes if "THEY" needed to go. My partners life has probably been shortened by simply trying to do her job as a teacher. It appears now that years of this abuse to her bladder and urinary tract has caused extensive damage. She still thinks of nothing but "the kids" and spends hours on free after class tutoring and career guidance. Sadly, most of the students she has are more likely to end up in jail.

If you don't have kids, or don't know any teachers or people who have kids, you would be floored, like I was, to find found out how bad it is in medium to big city schools. I don't know about smaller schools around this country. Hopefully, they're better. It is all extremely tragic and sad for both students and teachers.

[Rosemary2205]

55. Our trailers are equipped with restrooms.

Your partner should be complaining that her classroom trailer lacks facilities. There's no excuse for it.

[Skarbrowe]

63. She and others have Rosemary. There are still no bathrooms in

any of the 16 portables they are using. The school has built a large addition with I don't know how many new classrooms and my partner is now in the new building. I know it's horribly politically incorrect to say this, but when I first saw how many portables there were in her high school back in '97 and the god awful condition they were in, I thought I had inadvertently left the United States. Air conditioners were rotting out of the windows. Pieces of portables would be hanging off. It's much better now, but still no bathrooms in each individual portable and it's a long, long, long walk to the main building bathrooms. You could never make it between classes.

There is a portable with several bathrooms located near these classroom portables, but it is always locked due to vandalism. Last my partner heard from other teachers still stuck in them was that it's almost impossible to get a key to use them. You have to find security or a coach. Yeah, a sports team coach. It's insane. The students are very aware of their low priority and are dropping or being kicked out of school in record numbers. A truly lost generation.

Ah, she just told me that the bathrooms are now locked in the new building because of major vandalism and the kids have to walk over to the old building. GEEZ.

She's got 30 years in this year and she plans to stay another 10. I don't think her health will allow that. GEEZ! Insanity.

[Wednesdays]

98. You see, this is why

we need to abolish the public education system and turn all the money over to vouchers and the private schools!
:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. The portables in our district don't have restrooms

In fact, I have never heard of any with restrooms. You are very lucky.

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. Our school is small. The teachers have to be in a GOOD MOOD before they let the kids go to the

bathroom. It's completely up to them whether the child goes or not and if the teacher isn't in the 'mood' to be nice, they say "no, sit down." (I've been in one of my son's classes when a child asked to go to the washroom and that's exactly what she said to him.:() They also don't have to have escorts before they can go.

Not going to the washroom for hours upon hours damages the nerve endings in the bladder. The nerve endings send the signal to the brain that you need to use the restroom. When they're damaged, you can't go to the bathroom! OR...you have NO CONTROL. I'm sure you know this now though, sadly.:( My husband just went through a horrid prostate, kidney and bladder trauma. His bladder is damaged forever because he IGNORED a prostate problem. Both kidneys shut down and he almost ended up on dialysis for the rest of his life. This crap is nothing a teacher should have control over...or in your partner's case, is nothing HER BOSSES should have control over!
If you have to go...GO! I can't remember EVER being denied a trip to the washroom when I was in school. This is all so bizarre.:(

[Skarbrowe]

67. Yep. I'm not sure she has nerve endings left. It's a very bad situation.

She is better now that she can get to a bathroom near her classroom, but..yes..there is permanent damage. It was much worse on her than on the students. Most of that was her fault because she didn't stop the insanity when she should have. The kids always came first. Instead of telling the kids they would have to leave her room so she could take care of business, she would let them stick around thinking they were wanting math help. Crazy.

[madeline_con]

104. There's a flipside...

I work as a Teacher Assisstant in a Middle School, and we have students who literally spend half their time in the rest room. They ask to go every class period, and spend 15 to 20 of the 40 minute period in the rest room or hanging around outside it, cutting up with their buddies.

[WindRavenX]

12. why did I even bother turning on the computer this morning....

Fuck.

[dysfunctional press]

15. what if one of the kids had to take a crap...?

what's he supposed to do with the soda bottle in that case?

[zreosumgame]

16. gotta luv how they blame the TEACHER for the stupid policies

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Unless The Policy Stated For Teachers To Force Kids To Piss In A Bottle, It's The Teacher's Fault.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that the policy itself is pathetic. But the teacher had discretion and made an extremely bad judgment call.

The teacher had choices but chose poorly. How many of us, when faced with an option of "hmmm, which would come down on me worse, letting kids go to the bathroom sans escort because one wasn't available, or force them to piss in a bottle. Hmmmm." would have chosen the latter?

Give me a break. This teacher is a friggin moron.

[zreosumgame]

21. he/she had no choice

the policy was it seems to call the administration for an 'escort' and the supposed escort did not show. The bladders were full, and it was either take the entire class along or the boys could piss their pants. Or they could use an alternative that parents have used for decades on long trips in the car.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. Yes he/she did. He/she could grow a fucking spine and

make the leap that a child's bodily functions are more important than their stupid rules.

Not yelling at you. Just the stupidity of that teacher/school.

[zreosumgame]

27. one more time, the teacher did not fill the ballders or make the polocy

he/she is an EMPLOYEE and look how they are being treated because he/she FOLLOWED THE RULES as best they could, imagine the trouble if she had 'just sent them' and they had gotten as much as a hangnail on the way? then OMG the lawsuits and the blame to be flamed at them.

[Midlodemocrat]

28. What are ballders?

And just because he/she is an employee doesn't mean he/she doesn't have a fricking brain. You don't deny ANYONE access to the bathroom. I'm surprised the kid didn't piss on him/her. Would have served him/her right.

[zreosumgame]

38. excuse me GOPer, BLADDERS

now go back to being pissed on by dumbaya

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. Please Stop Attacking And Abusing DU'ers. Thanks.

Your comments are completely inappropriate.

[Midlodemocrat]

45. OMC. You're wasting your time.

But thanks.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. To Call YOU Of All People A GOP'er. Holy Cow LOL

As I'm sure you're aware, I don't mind a good 'ole passionate debate from time to time. But I consider completely inappropriate and uncalled for "you're a freeper!" type attacks merely for retaliation of holding a different opinion to be some of the most poisonous and detrimental to our community. It's such an ignorant mode of argument.

Definitely a waste of time with this one, though. :)

[Midlodemocrat]

49. Thank you for the compliment!

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

44. So I'm a GOPer because you can't spell?

:rofl:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. WTF are you talking about?

I honestly didn't realize you had misspelled the word. I didn't read all of the article and thought there was something I missed.

You need to GTFU and stop being such as asshole. You know NOTHING about me, but I now know that you are without question the biggest dipshit I have ever come into contact with on this board. Or any other for that matter.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. Project Much?

[youthere]

64. Not piling on here but..

I honestly wondered what a "ballder" was too...I thought it was some kind of teacher-lingo.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

99. Ballders?

Running down the hall, holding it in, that's ballderdash!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Of Course The Teacher Did. To Declare Otherwise Is Laughable.

The teacher had the choice I outlined: Consequences of avoiding policy due to escort not being available vs forcing 8th graders to piss in a coke bottle.

The teacher made the wrong choice. The teacher was an absolute friggin moron. My personal opinion is that a person with such poor judgment probably shouldn't be responsible for a bunch of 8th graders.

But don't tell me there was no choice. That declaration is absurd. I think you'd have quite a hard time convincing anyone that the principal of the school would've come down harder on the teacher for going around policy due to necessity and lack of available escort resources than for forcing kids to piss in a coke bottle. What a dumb judgment call the teacher made. Like I said, the teacher is an absolute friggin moron.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. Nice Attack You Got There. Try Some Civility Will Ya?

The only joke I see is the logic in your post.

The teacher was an absolute friggin moron, period. I hope they're fired.

[zreosumgame]

57. when you make a civil post, you might some back to you

as it is you have only asked stupid off-point 'questions' intended to anger people, then you are shocked, shocked i tell ya when you get it tossed back at you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. My Post Was Perfectly Civil. Several Of Yours Have Been Completely Abusive. You Seem So Angry That

people *gasp* disagree with you. I'm uncertain as to why you are reacting so sensitively or feel the need to act out in such an aggressive and abusive manner.

The teacher was a complete and utter moron. Not sure why that upsets you so.

[kiahzero]

40. Principals think of themselves as kings of their little fiefdoms

I honestly believe that a principal dumb enough to create such a policy in the first place would also come down harder on someone for violating the policy than for having the kids pee in a bottle.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. I Think There Is Not An Iota Of Reasoning Available To Believe That To Be True.

[Midlodemocrat]

48. I think there is a possibility that it could be true, but that doesn't excuse

this teacher's behavior. The teacher is an adult and should be able to stand up to a bullying principal. A kid doesn't have that ability.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Agreed (Bullying). But I Think The School Policy Was One They Took Too Far But Wtih Good Intentions

I think they started getting reviled by the conditions of the bathroom and agreed to a heavy handed too far reaching policy in an effort to eradicate the behavior. I definitely think the policy went too far, but I don't think it was one initiated from some evil dictator-like principal with no empathy or understanding.

I think if the Teacher had said "I had to let them go alone because there was no escort available. Next time how would you prefer I handle the situation?", I think the principal would've carried on a rational dialogue and discussed what they'd prefer next time, or maybe would've re-assessed the policy and implemented methods for making sure escorts could be available or other alternate solutions etc...

I have no reason to believe there would've been anything more than a civil exploratory conversation between the teacher and principal after having chosen to let the students go to the bathroom unattended. I believe they are all adults with good intentions, but that out of desperation over-reacted and implemented a too-strict policy that is a bit moronic in its premise. But that doesn't equate to the principal being like this heavy handed evil unsympathetic dictator that dare not be approached or mandates broken. I just don't see it.

[Midlodemocrat]

54. As an ex-teacher, I can say that there are some administrators who

do approach their schools with a very heavy hand and it almost always backfires. Some sort of Napoleonic complex. Not every one mind you, but I can think of several.

I do hold the teacher in this situation completely responsible. I wonder how he/she would like peeing in a bottle? An adult having a rational discussion with another adult, enough their boss is a far cry from a child being forced to endure this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. The principal has the ability to fire the teacher

Just sayin . . .

[kiahzero]

51. Look at how administrators handle challenges to their authority in other areas

Schools that are chronically underfunded will happily piss away money fighting lawsuits over clear constitutional concepts.

[Occulus]

84. Actually, my middle school principal was exactly that

Just like a king in his fiefdom. One of his rules was, no shorts of any kind. We had to go to court to get to wear shorts in 80-90 degree heat at the end of the year.

Another fun moment was when he proclaimed proudly to the assembled parents prior to the school year, "we do not have drugs in this school." Snickers were audible and widespread...

Ugh. He was a real prick, that one... glad I only had to be in his little kingdom for three years. Come to think of it, he was a really creepy guy, too, and his daughter had entitlement problems "because MY dad's the PRINCIPAL!!"

Ick. They are out there, though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. You have never taught, have you?

There is a high price to pay for not following policy and abiding by every rule, regardless of how petty they are.

I tend to be a rebel. The last time I pissed off a principal, I was transferred out of my school and was given one hour's notice (in August, while I was on vacation) to get myself to school to clean out my classroom before the custodians threw all my personal things away.

That principal was a lunatic. She formally reprimanded me for having school stationery on my desk. Yes, to this day, there is a letter in my professional file accusing me of possessing school stationery.

The administrator who runs my program got mad at me one time and refused to pay me $750 in extra pay I had earned tutoring for her after school. TWO YEARS LATER, my attorney negotiated a settlement of $500. I am violating the terms of that settlement by disclosing it to you now. (I told you I was a rebel.)

Administrators can be cruel, evil and vindictive. Many are task masters who DEMAND obedience. I am brave enough to challenge them at times, but this restroom policy is not a battle I would take on. But I also would never have suggested peeing in a pop bottle. I would have sent these kids to the office and let the principal take care of them.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. Your Situation Was Irrelevant To This One.

None of the details of it matter to me, to be honest.

Fact is here, that this has nothing to do with a teacher 'rebelling'. It was about being in a situation of necessity of which one choice was temporarily and innocently going around a policy that was unable to be implemented at the time vs choosing the pathetic option of forcing 8th graders to piss in a bottle. Think what you will, but I say that was a 'piss' poor choice and not the type of judgment I'd want a teacher of 8th graders to have.

You are trying to compare this to a situation of if the teacher's alternative was to declare to the students "ya know what? Fuck the principal! This is a stupid policy anyway! Everyone to the bathrooms!". But that isn't even close to reality, so there's no rebelling here at all. And though we don't know for certain, I think the principal would've understood and would've far preferred having them go to the restroom rather than piss in a fucking bottle.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. You called the teacher a friggin moron

and claimed there was a choice to go against the school policy. I was merely trying to point out to you that most teachers will not defy authority because when they do, the price can indeed be very high.

I agree with you that this teacher used poor judgment. But I also think the administrator who implemented this policy is the bad guy here.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

86. I Think Both The Administrator And Teacher Are Friggin Utter Morons.

There. Fair enough.

[knitter4democracy]

95. I completely agree with you.

I was yelled at once because I let my students go to the bathroom when they needed to. I stood my ground, and the vice-principal backed down, but it was a Catholic school, and I told her that the parents would be furious if they found out we weren't allowing their daughters to use the bathroom when needed. She left me alone after that.

I was written up, though, for having my lesson plans in pen and in pencil from week to week, rather than all typed up and in a three ring binder. :eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

93. If the bathrooms were locked, then where was the choice?

Some schools lock their bathrooms, which is why the kids need escorts--they have the keys. Teachers have keys, too, but a teacher can't leave an entire class to escort three kids to the bathroom. He couldn't just send them, either.

Me, I would've sent the kids to the office (there's usually a bathroom there for the administrators and sick kids) with a note explaining the problem. Surely the three kids could supervise each other enough to get there.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. You Realize You're Arguing With Yourself, Right?

"If the bathrooms were locked, then where was the choice?"

followed by:

"Me, I would've sent the kids to the office (there's usually a bathroom there for the administrators and sick kids) with a note explaining the problem."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Do you normally enjoy asking questions and then answering them yourself via your own argument? I actually did laugh out loud when reading that.

Obviously there were many choices. But even more important to me in this discussion, is your making up of facts that the bathroom was locked. There is no reason to believe they were locked. If they were, I would think it an important enough detail to have been included in the article. Since it wasn't, it is likely they were NOT locked.

I'll repeat wholeheartedly: This teacher was a friggin moron.

[knitter4democracy]

101. Hee, hee, sorry.

:D I'm a bit loopy these days. :crazy:

Just because they didn't say the bathrooms are locked doesn't mean they aren't, though. Many schools do that, so it's not a stretch to say that. The fact that the escort rule had to be followed that closely leads me to suspect that they were locked there.

I have a hard time saying any teacher is a "friggin' moron," even though I've taught with some and had a few others. Bad decision, yes, but it doesn't mean that he's a horrible teacher overall or a moron for even being in the classroom.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. Ehhhh, Maybe You're Right. I Guess I Just Look At It This Way:

Whenever I'm confronted with a situation such as the one in this article, I always strive to be as objective as possible and see things from their point of view. I take myself and try and put myself in their shoes and see if I can relate to the action. I always undertake that mental role playing and it helps me to forge incredibly objective and accurate opinions when I need to, even when they end up conflicting with how I feel personally (the non objective self).

But in this case, when putting myself in the teacher's shoes and trying to visualize the circumstance, I couldn't even imagine under any circumstance having made the judgment call to declare to 3 8th graders to publicly piss in a coke bottle. I thought of dozens of different ways I might have handled it, but I couldn't whatsoever conceive an objective situation within these parameters that I would've taken the action the teacher had. At the end of my mental exercise, the only explanation I had left as to what circumstance could cause me to declare the action the teacher had, was that I'd have to be a friggin moron. That was the only conclusion I was able to arrive at that would end up with me telling 3 8th graders in the classroom to piss in a coke bottle. That's why I then wrote the opinion I did. I couldn't think of a situation of not being a moron, but still needing to force the kids to piss in a coke bottle LOL I hope you see a little bit what I'm sayin.

It was just my standard mental exercises of objectivity, but I would never declare them to be 100% accurate. Maybe the teacher isn't a moron and maybe you're right. But like I said; when thinking through the dozens of scenarios and options in my head when visualizing myself in the teacher's shoes, the only thing that made sense in arriving at this action was simply being a moron.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. The bathrooms are probably locked

If I had been the teacher, I would have sent these kids to the office and let the principal deal with their urge to go.

[WinkyDink]

17. the teacher was an idiot. He/she should have called THE FRONT OFFICE and had the

PRINCIPAL decide the matter---or do the escorting.

I taught in an upper-middle-class suburban/small town h.s.. Nobody NOT in education would believe the GROSS and FILTHY BEHAVIORS and their EFFECTS, by both girls and boys, that the custodians could tell you about.

[Midlodemocrat]

29. I never experienced that when I was teaching. The bathrooms were

always fine. Also an upper middle class school. :shrug:

[BreweryYardRat]

94. Or someone who's just gotten out of high school.

"I taught in an upper-middle-class suburban/small town h.s.. Nobody NOT in education would believe the GROSS and FILTHY BEHAVIORS and their EFFECTS, by both girls and boys, that the custodians could tell you about."

Can't speak for the girls, but most of the boys' restrooms when I was in high school were hellholes. Piss floods on the floor or actual floods from backed up plumbing, piss all over the seats, toilets clogged beyond belief with toilet paper, soap dispensers torn off the walls, and so on.

When I had to shit in high school, I'd do my best to walk over to the auditorium or the media center, because those were the only places on campus where I wouldn't have to worry about catching God-knows-what.

People are fucking animals.

[WI_DEM]

20. She should have told the front office to have somebody get their ass down there and quick even if

it's the principal. That these kids need to go and she needs to stay in the classroom. She was put in an awful position.

[Midlodemocrat]

25. Had it been me, I would have just told them to go to the bathroom

and dealt with the higher ups later.

Never in all my years of teaching did I *ever* deny a child the right to use the bathroom and the one teacher who did deny my daughter a pass to the bathroom got her head handed to her. There is no excuse for such a rule, regardless of the condition of the bathroom.

Do they think perhaps the kids are being pigs because they are rebelling against this moronic rule? That it's embarassing to have an 'escort' to the bathroom in 8th grade?

What morans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. How long did you teach?

And you never saw kids damage a restroom?? :crazy:

[Norquist Nemesis]

30. "Escorts" was an inefficient method to handle it in the first place

The justification of 'escorts' due to concerns about defacing is dumb to begin with. If it was really the condition of the bathrooms that were at issue, give the kids a hall pass and put in a bathroom monitor that gives regular inspections on the condition. Have the monitor sign the time the kids exit and require the kids turn it in to the teacher when they return to the classroom. If the bathroom gets 'defaced', there's a small pool of kids on the suspect list.

Sounds to me like the escorts are a tool to humiliate the kids, rather than keep the bathrooms in good order.

[Occulus]

88. IT isn't dumb if the kid WANTS to cut his name on the top of the stall.

And seriously- lots and lots of people like 'leaving their mark'. Have you never seen a rest area bathroom stall? And presumably, most of the users of those are adults.

Not that I ever carved my initials into anything when I was a kid, nosir, not me, never, not once, ever. :evilgrin:

Still, setting a trash can on fire is pretty drastic.

[hedgehog]

31. Take a look at some of the newer school buildings.

The bathroom stalls at the junior high are more or less open to the corridor - there is a baffle but no door and the sinks are in full sight. The kids are instructed that they can use the bathroom when classes change. Here's the kickers - There aren't enough toilets and the kids barely have time to get from one class to the next without a bathroom stop. The kids also have the option of using a toilet during their 20 minute lunch as long as they don't leave the cafeteria. There is one toilet accessible.

The same pretty much applies at the high school. Every year they have a Respect Week and cap it off with a special speech making session. I feel respect exists only when it goes two ways. Treating students like unruly prisoners doesn't show much respect.

[Midlodemocrat]

32. You said it, hedgehog.

If you want respect, show some.

We're going through the same thing at the new high school my kids attend. The administration behaves as if the student population is one step from mass murderers.

My son was on crutches due to a broken foot and they wanted me to send in a note EVERY DAY so he could get an elevator pass. Hello? That bright green thing on his leg. It's a cast you idiots. Those wooden things protruding from his armpits? Crutches. It was as if they thought he would ride the elevator for fun. :eyes:

I sent in a note from the MD when he would be off crutches and a letter indicating that he was to be given an elevator key/pass until that date. I copied the superintendent.

He got the key.

[hedgehog]

37. My kids are subject to migraines that can be cut off if they take

aspirin or ibuprofen at the first signs. For years, I had to get a doctor's prescription and give the nurse a bottle of pills every year to ensure that the kids had access to medication. The last two kids just keep the pills in their back packs. They are in violation of the no pills at school ban, but they don't get migraines.

[Midlodemocrat]

62. And they don't have to worry about some fascist denying them access

to the school nurse for their medication. God, what have we become?

[Occulus]

85. Of course he got the key

ADA and all. The problem is, there are far, far too many parents willing to not make a fuss- as you did- and who, by NOT making a fuss, only allow such policies to be proposed and implemented and ultimately, perpetuated.

I simply can't believe anyone at all could defend the teacher's decision, but I have to ask (as others have) what exactly were the options. I think I smell a rat on the part of the school administrators- have they never heard of hall monitors? We have pager phones now. Why can't the hall monitors be 'on call' for restroom breaks? Log them in and out and report the time on the pass and the monitor's own log. There will be no question of who vandalized what.

Jesus. Are the kids in charge of the school administration?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. That's what I've been thinking throughout this thread

I don't condone vandalism at all. In fact, it makes me irrationally furious. But you have to wonder if the kids don't vandalize bathrooms as a way of getting back at stupidly organized schools run by ACA's (ass-covering administrators).

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. I hope their aim is better than most...

Most can't seem to hit a urinal or toilet bowl with any consistent accuracy. How much would go in a soda bottle? 10% maybe?

I'm usually all for increasing teachers' salaries. But once in a while ...

Maybe the school needs a permanent bathroom monitor with no other duties. This teacher is the perfect candidate.

[katamaran]

34. It's not the messiness that schools worry about...

It's not the messiness that schools worry about...kids peeing on the floor, leaving trash, etc. It's the kids who smoke in the bathroom, put their cigs in the trash and set a fire, kids who meet up for illicit encounters, kids stay in the bathroom for 20 minutes or so to skip as much class as possible, kids walking out the building, kids sneaking around in general. Stuff like that. I've been out of high school ten years now. I went to a middle class suburban high school. It wasn't a bad school at all. But those things led to the "no breaks" policy. Over the course of four years, it went from bad to worse. A trashcan fire at least once a month, kids never coming back to class, etc. Kids will do whatever the hell they want to do these days, and no threat from a hall monitor or teacher will stop them.

Peeing in a bottle sure as hell isn't the solution. But in a school my size, with 1500 students, three multi-stall bathroom pairs, and a limited number of teachers who can be hall monitors during their planning period lends leads the schools to have to implement rules like that. There were no less than eight teachers on duty at any one time, and even they couldn't keep track of everyone coming and going. The schools are underfunded, so they can't hire security half the time.

[SheilaT]

46. I'm horrified at

the privacy issue.

Were these boys supposed to unzip and pee in the bottle inside the classroom?

And as others have asked, would girls have been told the same thing?

As for the earlier comment about restrooms in various stores being pig-pens, it's been my observation that all too often someone seems to unlock the restroom when the store opens, and then someone else locks it back up at closing time, and in the hours in between there is never a cleaning crew or anyone monitoring the conditions. If trashcans are overflowing it's a real clear sign that there should have been maintenance people emptying them some time earlier.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. I must admit that is the first thing that I thought of.

Even beyond the entire escort issue. I can't imagine how humiliating it would be to have an audience while using the restroom, regardless of their ability to see inside the stalls.

[Odin2005]

61. Christ, our schools really have become prisons.

This is a fucking outage. The fascist idiot who came up with that policy should be forced to pee outdoors into a bottle for the rest of his/her life as punishment.

[G Hawes]

72. It's a sad thing when rules such as

those requiring eighth graders to be escorted to the bathroom even exist.

Very, very sad.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

73. I had a real problem with this as a girl & as an adult

When I was in high school, the school was huge and there was not enough time to go to the bathroom between classes. There were 3500 kids in four grades.

I had orchestra at noon, and I would go to the bathroom to change my pads when I had a period, at that time. We walked in the band hall and everybody threw their books on the shelves, and went in the instrument room to get our instruments out, and then walked down a long hall to the big room where the orchestra director was, so he didn't see us hit the door when the bell rang.

He threatened to send me to the principal's office, or write me up as tardy, and I told him I HAD to go to the bathroom. He told me I should go some other time. I told him I had no other time to go. He had a wife and a daughter.

I couldn't have gotten thru a whole day without changing a pad. I used to go a whole day without peeing, a lot of times, because of this crapola. This was back in the days before sticky pads.

Looking back at it I should have thrown a dirty kotex on his desk, and gotten suspended.

I still refuse to talk to this idiot 35 years later.

Same thing at work, judges who refused to take lunch breaks so I could get the shakes from a blood sugar attack, isntead of letting me eat. I finally had to stand up to a judge and I told him, "I have low blood sugar and I have to eat lunch. Would you like the name and phone number of my doctor? Do you want to call him? I'll be glad to give you his number." and he backed down and took 30 minutes for lunch so I could get a greaseburger.

One of the prominent trial lawyers at the hearing said, "I'm impressed with the way you stood up to the judge."

I really hate the fact that the Big Brother society won't take your word for anything anymore, you have to have a doctor's excuse for everything, because they don't believe you. So inconsiderate of basic human bodily functions. :banghead:

[Occulus]

87. They say it's because "people abuse it"

Well, yes. Some people DO 'abuse it'. That's life. Get over that fact, and concentrate on the people who really DO 'need to go'. While you're at it, see to it that the people who DO 'abuse it' DO get singled out, instead of telling everyone as a group. Why? Because if you chastise as a group, you also chastise the people who are following the rules AS IF THEY DIDN'T. And that makes them give up and break the rules, because quite obviously, rules no longer matter.

I see this at work each and every day, and I bet the rest of us do as well. It's human nature. Punish the innocent along with the guilty, and the punished innocent will make themselves guilty in some way out of spite. But NO teen would behave that way... no, never.....

x(

[Warren DeMontague]

74. So telling the kids to piss in a bottle will teach them not to "urinate in inappropriate areas"?

That's funny.

[rknryd]

82. What is this Walmart Prep School?

I mean how degrading:wtf:

[BoneDaddy]

91. There are policies and procedures

when students are suspected of being under the influence. Typically the matter is directed by the nurse and suspected students are sent out to official labs where urine is taken.

This teacher stepped WAY over the lines of his responsibility and decided to take matters into his own hands.

Crazy world.

[knitter4democracy]

96. I taught once with a teacher who charged the kids for a pass.

One of the foreign language teachers charged the girls fifty cents (exact change) to go to the bathroom after she found out they'd been abusing the break (taking too long, wandering around the school, meeting up with friends, etc.). She then upped it to a dollar.

I found out after a couple of students needed to go to the bathroom everyday at the beginning of my class. I asked them what was going on (pass-time wasn't long enough for a bathroom break, often), and they finally told me what was going on. Boy, did I get mad. I found that teacher during our next prep period together and reamed her out. She tried to tell me how the girls had been abusing their "privilege" and I told her that she'd deserve the lawsuit when a student got a UTI or peed all over herself or had her pad bleed through onto her desk's seat. She hadn't even thought of all that ( :eyes: ), and she changed her policy to excusing a girl if there really were an emergency. The girls hated it.

I always let my kids go. If a student seemed to be abusing it, then I set a time limit (knowing how long it took to walk to the nearest bathroom for my breaks). My last year, I was the furthest away from the bathrooms of any teacher, so I gave my kids a little longer to get there and back. If they went over their time limit, they got a warning, and three added up to a detention.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

103. This was a female foreign language teacher?

This, I presume was a female teacher, and she never thought about periods?

Was she born without a uterus or something? Or was she born without an empathy cell in her body?

[knitter4democracy]

110. Yup. I have no idea what she was thinking.

It was one of the dumbest things I'd ever seen a teacher do. I wish I'd been there when she got reamed out by the principal, if just to see someone else get yelled at for once.

[Babette]

97. We had this policy at my school...

We had major problems with kids defacing the bathrooms- either ripping soap dispensers off walls and smearing feces everywhere or writing obscene things about other students in big black permanent markers all over the wall. There were kids smoking in the bathrooms, and a few instances of kids asking to go to the bathroom and just walking out of school. The principal instituted a "lockdown". No one could leave the classrooms for any reason. If a kid had to use the bathroom, we had to call her to come up and escort the kid to the bathroom herself. Not many kids wanted to have the principal escorting them to the bathroom. She'd be angry everytime it happened, even though it was her policy. Of course, being principal, she wasn't always available. During a meeting staff asked what we were expected to do when this happened, and the superintendent himself told us "tell the kids to pee in the corner." That was the tip of the iceberg there. I left halfway through the year.

Now I'm late for work!

[Hippo_Tron]

107. Can't they install cameras in the restrooms?

Obviously not in the stalls but they could easily identify the kids that vandalize them.