Immigration Raids In 6 States- First They Came For...???

[Jcrowley]

Raids in 6 states met with anger, cheers
By KIM NGUYEN, Associated Press Writer Wed Dec 13, 8:44 AM ET

GREELEY, Colo. - Outside a meatpacking plant fence, a frustrated Tony Garcia watched as Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents swarmed inside to arrest illegal immigrants suspected in an identity-theft scheme.

"We need help," he yelled. "We need answers."

But most of his questions Tuesday had to wait. No names were released, and authorities did not say how many people were arrested. There was only the sight of dozens of workers being taken to law enforcement buses as agents swept through Swift & Co. plants in six states.

At the Swift plant in Grand Island, Neb., as many as 250 workers from a shift of more than 600 were detained, local union spokesman Mike Mary told The Washington Post.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_re_us/immigration_raid_13

[DU9598]

1. Iowa Discussion

On the Iowa board we are having an insightful discussion of this horrific act.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=152x13393>

[FyurFly]

5. horrific?

Enforcing the law is horrific?

[Jcrowley]

6. Corrupt

corrupt
from the bottom
to the top
and they tell me it's the law.

Hmm? Wonder if we can think of any historical examples of folks being rounded up legally with horrific consequences? Oh sure I recognize all analogies are odious but I suppose we could entertain the notion of context and institutional patterns of behavior in authoritarian cultures.



I do believe the US has the largest prison population per capita in the world.
It's all connected.

[DU9598]

8. Yes, if you saw the faces and had a heart

it was quite horrific. Terrifying, disruptive, inhumane are other words that come to mind.

[judaspriestess]

34. that could also be said about the cattle they are killing

2200 a day? :(

edit: spelling

[DU9598]

122. Are you related to Congressman Steve King?

Comparing humans to livestock is really beneath most of us, isn't it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Law enforcement is often like that. n/t

[napi21]

2. Meat packing companies are amoung the slimiest employers

in the US! 25 years ago, they were paying $19/hr and actually regulated. NOW, you're lucky to receive $10/hr and the working conditions are horrible!

Not only have they gone after those desperate people who will do anything just to have a job,, but they are intentionally going after those who would be afraid to complain about how they're treated!

Ihave sympathy for the illegals who are just looking for a paying job to support their family, but for the US to allow any company to operate like the packers do is illegal and should be stopped NOW!

[Sequoia]

3. Still in "The Jungle" it seems.

Just think of the broken familes..dad was arrested and sent over the border. However, the meat packing company will not be held responsible.

[napi21]

11. THAT is the major flaw! The employers have not been held responsible for

THEIR illegal actions!

I read several articles about why noone ever goes after the employers in cases like this. It seems when the first amnesty was granted to those illoegals who were already here, the law also stated thatemployers would be punished for hiring any new ones. That program lasted a little less than 2 weeks, and the enforcement people were told to back off AFTER all the big money donor companies called their congressmen to complain!

I can only hope that this NEW Congress acts differently!

For a long time, I've said if there were no jobs available, there would be no illegals becauseword would soon travel that it's not worth the risk to try sneaking across the border. I think we are punishing the wrong people here.

[Pushed To The Left]

118. Exactly! If hundreds of illegal immigrants are arrested and the employer

isn't penalized, he or she can just hire and exploit a few hundred more. If you go right to the top and arrest the employer, he or she won't be able to hire anybody from prison! In fact, I wouldn't mind them to have a bunch of immigration raids where they solely went after the employers. When we start seeing wealthy white business owners going away in handcuffs, unscrupulous employers will get the message. I think going after the employers is a great way to bring the hardcore anti-illegal-immigration people and the immigrants' rights people together to fight corporate conservatism!

[AZBlue]

18. I'd like to see a Swift boycott.

They claim they didn't know they were hiring illegal immigrants but went to court to stop the raid because it would take "40% of their workers." So, they did know. And they haven't been charged with anything. That has to change.

[originalpckelly]

30. I know...

I think it's awful that these employers refuse to pay Americans better wages to work at these jobs. Just a bunch of fucking corporate assholes!

[AZBlue]

33. Yes they are! And, they are breaking the law just as much as the workers.

And should be held accountable!

[kath]

104. Yes, these and other factory jobs used to pay well. Now the companies

rely on illegals and pay shit wages.
Companies hiring illegals should be VERY heavily fined.


How did you find out what the pay was 25 years ago? I *know* that wages have drastically decreased in many jobs, but I would love to be able to have access to some data to back me up...

[girl gone mad]

109. I couldn't agree more.

The government finally took responsible action and now DUers are complaining. I don't get it. :shrug:

[Jcrowley]

113. Is this what you call responsible action?

"Just 2 people out of the 4 busloads of people taken away in Marshalltown, IA were charged with ID theft."

The entire discussion about immigrants is Orwellian and so are all of the proposed "remedies."

Of course no police state would first come after "us" - an imagined group of "others;" of "aliens" needs to be created in people's minds as the first targets.

People are looking at this issue in a way that is inconsistent with the lessons of history.

The logical and inevitable outcome of the current immigration discussion is to make everyone in the country illegal until and unless they can prove to the satisfaction of police agents that they are legal. That is a variation on guilty until proved innocent, with the burden for legitimacy placed on the individual rather than on the police. The crime involved will be - is already - no more and no less than "living without the express permission of the government as interpreted by law enforcement agents and as informed by snitches."

What do you think liberal people in Germany were saying in the 30's? "Don't get me wrong, I am not prejudiced against Jews. It is just that I think we have enough problems trying to find work for our own people, and that Jews do not share our culture and our values. I have nothing against them, but is it right that they take jobs that should go to Germans? After all, this is Germany. Do we not as Germans have the right to decide our own destiny? If we let just anyone in - Poles, Slavs, Jews - what will be left of German culture? And how can we take in all of these poor people? They aren't learning German, they aren't adapting to our ways. Are they really loyal to Germany, or are they just strangers among us taking advantage of Germany? Shouldn't they be sent back to where they came from? I think that if you look at the statistics, you will see higher crime rates and higher unemployment among them. Should we be forced to support them when we have so many problems of our own? If you lived near the ghetto you would understand. We are being invaded. Something must be done."

Ya' see?

[flamin lib]

4. Why are they arresting and deporting only half of those committing

"crime"? When employers are fined to the point of bankruptcy there won't be an illegal immigration problem.

Apply supply side economics to this problem and it will go away.

[rocktivity]

13. DING DING DING! Flamin Lib, you're our grand prize winner!

...When employers are fined to the point of bankruptcy there won't be an illegal immigration problem...

The fines for saying a bad word on television or radio were increased exponentially--why not do the same to the businesses (AND subcontractors)? If they can't save money by hiring illegals, they won't hire them. And if illegals can't get jobs here, they'll stop coming!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Mugu]

15. You may need to reread the article.

The people that were arrested were using stolen identities, they're criminals whether they're here legally or not.

Regards, Mugu

[flamin lib]

True enough. My point is that they wouldn't be using illegal

means to be here if the allure of work didn't attract them. Both sides of the problem are breaking the law. Why concentrate on only one side?

This is a complicated issue and no easy solution is at hand, but if supply side works for economics it should work for employers too.

If I'm to be trickled down on why not the employers for illegal aliens?

[Mugu]

27. I agree with you that employers should be held accountable.

But in this case it appears that the company exercised due diligence in checking and reporting. Otherwise ICE probably wouldn't have known where and who to look for.

Regards, Mugu

[Jcrowley]

17. They have been criminalized

In a worldwide predatory economic system centered in DC and Wall $t. with many other locales. They have been pushed off their lands due to Western corporate greed and western consumer need and then blamed.
Pretty appalling.


Leasa Arguijo holds a sign for her 3-month-old grandson, Leonel Vicente Jr., while his mother, Rocenda Arenas, all of Greeley, cries for her husband who was one of about 300 Swift & Co. employees taken away during an immigration raid. Rocenda said her husband, Leonel Vicente, was an illegal immigrant from Guatemala who worked at the plant for about seven years and now she feared he was being deported.

Latino community outraged at timing of ICE raid

In one of the largest federal roundups in the state since the immigration frenzy swept the country, several hundred worried residents protested outside Swift & Co. beef packing plant, angry at officials for their insensitive timing of the raid.

"This is an insult to us as Mexicans because today is El Dia de la Vigen de Guadalupe," said Lupe Tapia of Greeley, in reference to Dec. 12, which is celebrated as a religious holiday recognizing the birth of the virgin Mary. "They are acting like (the undocumented workers) are terrorists but they are just coming here to work."

The raid was part of investigation that began in February after several reports of stolen identities were linked to the company. Workers who remained after the raid estimate that 300 or more were apprehended.

"It's running through the Greeley community, and people are calling in and saying 'should we go to work at the other companies here in Greeley?' " said Priscilla Falcon, a Chicano studies teacher at the University of Northern Colorado and an activist in the Latino community. "It's a hysteria that is flowing through the county at this point, I think."

http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20061213/NEWS/112130075

[Mugu]

32. The fact of the matter is that these people are criminals.

Not just because they are here illegally, but because of identity theft.

Regards, Mugu

[High Plains]

37. And the law is an ass.

It looks like a small percentage of the people rounded up were using somebody else's social security number. The vast majority of those detained are not accused of identity theft, only of trying to make a living.

We need either increased immigration quotas or a guest worker program.

[originalpckelly]

41. What happens to America when 40+ million people show up?

:shrug:

That's more than ten percent of our current population. That's the number a Pew Hispanic Center poll found wanted to come to America. That's about 40% of Mexico's population (which happens to be 100-107 million. 100 in the last census of 2000.)

What the hell are we going to do with all those people?

Here is the poll I speak of:
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=52

[michreject]

124. Bush agrees with you, I don't

We need either increased immigration quotas or a guest worker program.

[High Plains]

38. And the law is an ass.

It looks like a small percentage of the people rounded up were using somebody else's social security number. The vast majority of those detained are not accused of identity theft, only of trying to make a living.

We need either increased immigration quotas or a guest worker program.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Swift&Co. GAVE them the

fake SS numbers?

I wouldn't put it past them.

[Mugu]

57. And once we know that to be a fact they can be charged as well.

It's a bit early yet to be pointing fingers without knowing the truth.

Regards, Mugu

[originalpckelly]

36. "They have been pushed off their lands due to Western corporate greed"

What exactly do you mean about the "pushed off their lands" bit?

[Jcrowley]

45. Do you seriously

not know?

"We" stole half of Mexico by armed force -- the nice parts with rich deposits of gold and silver (and, as it turned out, oil -- though "we" didn't actually recognize that at the time.)

"We" made sure that "our" influence over Latin America was such that wealth would be steadily transferred from their countries to ours. "We" sent the Marines to Nicaragua, Haiti, & Guatemala often enough to insure that life in those countries would be a permanent living hell for most of the inhabitants. "We" imposed military dictatorships in almost every Central & South American country, stunting the aspirations of their people, & imposing conditions from which some of those countries will never recover. (So if some of the people want to escape from the living conditions in those countries, "we" had very much to do with creating those conditions.)

Interestingly, "we" started doing all this at the same time that "we" were exterminating the indigenous people here, AND using black slaves from Africa. What a loveable, righteous people "we" are, here in the "Land of the Free"!!

To read between the lines of today's American media treatment of the issue, the real "controversy" today is not between decent humane treatment for immigrants; and harassment by racists, vigilantes, and police. It's between two factions of rightwing opinion: should immigrants be exploited for their cheap labor (and their delightful inability to defend themselves), or should racism and xenophobia be pandered to, by encouraging nutcases like the Minutemen, and other "red blooded Amurrikans" who think it's exciting to organize mobs to defend white supremacy? This is a serious "issue" for people like Bush, who is doubtless torn, & genuinely sympathetic to both sides.

[Jcrowley]

108. Reasons

• NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their 'death warrant.'
• NAFTA's service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.
• Wages along the Mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA, reported a Carnegie Endowment study. An over-supply of workers, combined with the crushing of union organizing drives as government policy, has resulted in sweatshop pay running sweatshops along the border where wages typically run 60 cents to $1 an hour.

<snip>

Falling industrial wages, peasants forced off the land, small businesses liquidated, growing poverty: these are direct consequences of NAFTA. This harsh suffering explains why so many desperate Mexicans -- lured to the border area in the false hope that they could find dignity in the US-owned maquiladoras -- are willing to risk their lives to cross the border to provide for their families. There were 2.5 million Mexican illegals in 1995; 8 million have crossed the border since then. In 2005, some 400 desperate Mexicans died trying to enter the US.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm

And this is just a sample of the most recent causes. Should we go more deeply into US involvement in this part of the world starting in the late 1800's to see the historical cycle that brings us to today's events?

[pstans]

110. 2 people of the 4 busloads were charged with ID theft in Marshalltown

Just 2 people out of the 4 busloads of people taken away in Marshalltown, IA were charged with ID theft.

[warrens]

66. Something you might want to know...according to Chertoff

Swift tipped off its workers to keep them from getting felony charges for having stolen identities. Homeland Security is furious and took it out on the illegals. Chertoff is calling for DHS to be able to link its databases to Social Security.

It's not always a bad-guy employer, you know. This is hardball politics and Swift is sort of caught in between. The average employee makes about $25K annually and is a union member at Swift.

[tkmorris]

79. Well, that stands out like a sore thumb.

"The average employee makes about $25K annually and is a union member at Swift."

A unionized worker at a meat packing plant making 25k a year? That's a crappy union.

[peace13]

7. And you ask where the troops will come from.

They will arrest these folks and give them a choice. Enlist or go to jail. Remember a year or two ago when Homeland Security had the nationwide drug raids and rounded up thousands of unfortunates? There seems to be a pattern here.

[Ganja Ninja]

9. One thing they didn't come for was the white collar guys that hired

the illegals.

[jilln]

10. It's ironic you can't get someone into those places to enforce animal welfare laws

but you can if it's to arrest someone who obviously couldn't find a better job and is being preyed upon by the worst employers in the world.

[Sapere aude]

12. Though I am pro immigrant I have no problem with upholding the law.

The real solution to the problem of the poor in Mexico will not come until we enforce the laws on this side of the border. If we do that, those on both side of the political spectrum who have empathy for the poor (yes there are repukes that have empathy for the immigrants) will force a solution. The problem has no real solution as things exist because Mexico is not a part of the solution. If you enforce immigration laws and labor laws it forces Mexico to become involved.

[treestar]

16. Yes, it has a lot to do with how we don't enforce those laws much

and then get all huffy about their not being respected.

Also, they are just stupid laws. From 1952, they don't serve us well, which is why we don't enforce them. Then we make a show of enforcing them all of a sudden and it is rather blindsiding.

Needed workers should be able to come in legally. We have this informal system going on, you're needed, if you can sneak over you prove your meddle, but we reserve the right to suddenly disrupt your life and deport you and to look down our nose at you as a lawbreaker.

We need to upgrade our system to fit the modern world, instead of sitting there on a shaky pile of often and confusingly amended 50 year old laws, winking at those who violate them until one day we need an emotional catharsis or a show of force and then suddenly acting as if we are the victims.

[Rosemary2205]

14. I really have no problem with this

I'd gladly return to the days when our immigrants are all here legally and businesses are required to treat them and all low paid workers with just a little more respect.

[Ms. Clio]

95. those days never existed

what fantasy history have you been reading?

[Cleita]

19. Sigh! I knew this would be the end result of the anti-immigrant

movement. We as a country are damned.

For any of the self-righteous here who like to argue that they broke the law, don't bother to argue with me. I'm pretty pissed. Remember runaway slaves broke the law too in the ante-bellum South.

In their case the punishment also didn't fit the crime but was way over the top, like this is. How many people get arrested and disappeard for identify theft when they are white Americans?

[RebelOne]

20. But just remember, the runaway slaves did not

come here willingly. They were forced to come to this country. The illegals had a choice.

[Cleita]

23. Oh so that makes a big difference in how justice is handed out?

You disgust me.

Where is that ignore button.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. Use it twice, because the answer is "yes".

A kidnap victim is a victim. An illegal alien is subject to justice.

INS needs to punish the employers TOO.

[Jcrowley]

26. Patently false

You're pretty much ignoring the entirety of the historical record when you falsely state that these people came here of their own choice. It's laughable if it wasn't so obscene.

The reason these people are here are a direct result of colonialism, corporate theft of their lands and the policies of the World Bank, IMF as codified in criminal pacts like NAFTA.

If you'll read some history on this matter you'll see how ridiculous it is to believe that these people came here because of some choice. It was precisely lack of choices and desperate conditions at home created by what I briefly sketched out above which brought them here to work in awful conditions in humiliating jobs.

[originalpckelly]

28. So you're demeaning men and women who work at meat packing plants?

:shrug:

Is that something they should be ashamed of?

"humiliating jobs"

[Ms. Clio]

96. what a strawman

seriously, is that the best response you can make to a very informative reply?

[originalpckelly]

25. You're comparing slaves to illegal immigrants?

I think you're about to get flamed.

I cannot believe you are comparing people whom choose to work in America with people who were kidnapped and brought across oceans in horrible conditions to America, against their will.

No one is enslaving them in Mexico, so again it is not comparable.

I can understand the concept of immoral laws, which make it illegal to do something perfectly moral, but it isn't moral for these individuals to sneak across the border and come to America to take jobs which American workers could be doing.

I can understand also wanting to go after the employers, that makes sense to do.

But to compare illegal immigration to slavery is beyond outrageous and you ought to be ashamed that you have done it.


And not only that, but these selfish people are stealing, in many cases, the social security numbers of Americans. I know of one story in Colorado of a man nearly losing his disability benefits because an illegal immigrant had stolen his social security number and was working with it, thus making it appear the disabled man was working. He was a victim, and thankfully a local television station helped him with his problem, but I have to wonder how many other people are being hurt by these illegal immigrants.

[Cleita]

62. How they got here is not the argument.

The argument is for what they did that was according to our laws illegal and how they are paying for it. It was not illegal to own slaves back then although it should have been. What was illegal is that the victim ran away and suffered draconian punishment for it, even having half their feet cut off if they were caught.

The immigrants were rounded up for identity theft. They are being arrested and no one knows where they have been taken. We don't know if they are even going to get a hearing. Now I was a victim of identity theft and the thief, a white man, was fined and given a suspended sentence and community service. He was neither arrested nor spent a day in jail.

[Zookeeper]

102. White and black people DO get arrested for I.D. theft!

Where in the world did you get the idea that they don't?

[Imagevision]

21. Update: 1271 illegal aliens have been arrested in six states... not too shabby

[AZBlue]

22. You've obviously never been affected by identity theft.

Or do you just think all laws are ridiculous?

Here's the perfect example of the (true) victim's nightmare - taken right from this group your paranoid OP is defending:

Theresa Sanchez was expecting a $5,400 tax refund when she opened a letter from the IRS in January 2003. Instead, she got a bill demanding payment of taxes on $120,000 in undeclared wages. Someone using her name and Social Security number had earned the money through a series of jobs dating back to 1996 and had not paid any taxes on the income, the letter said.

Sanchez complained to the agency and to the Federal Trade Commission that her identity had been stolen, and was being used by someone to gain employment. Nonetheless, more than two years later, in April 2005, a woman walked into the Swift & Co. meatpacking plant in Greeley, Colo., and used Theresa Sanchez's name and Social Security number to get a job.

http://redtape.msnbc.com/2006/12/meatpacking_rai.html#posts

[Jcrowley]

24. Sorry

I tend to look at the root causes and refuse to blame victims. Even as one who has been mugged I couldn't work up the proper amount of animosity towards the young man who stole from me. I understand the conditions which bring such acts about and to continue to villainize people who have seen their lives destroyed, mostly due to that non-negotiable "American lifestyle" and all that that entails, is to ignore the consequences of colonialism and will keep us on the same path of gross injustice that affects us all.


Clarissa Mendoza (center) broke down Tuesday after hearing from friend Juanita Solano that her boyfriend was detained in an Immigration and Customs Enforcement raid at the Swift & Co. meatpacking plant in Cactus, Texas.

Federal raid casts a pall over Cactus

5 other U.S. towns targeted; officials alleging ID theft

12:00 AM CST on Wednesday, December 13, 2006

By DIANNE SOLIS and DAVID McLEMORE / The Dallas Morning News

The federal raid that shut down the Swift & Co. meatpacking plant Tuesday in Cactus, Texas, left hundreds of families scattered and the future unclear for a town that survives on a mix of illegal immigration and dangerous work.

The Cactus beef processing plant – the only big thing in a very small place – was one of six Swift plants in six states that Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents hit during the early morning to break up what the government called a nationwide network that supplied illegal immigrants with authentic documents – Social Security cards and birth certificates of real people – to get jobs at Swift.

While agents targeted a company that bills itself as the world's second-largest processor of beef and pork, members of Congress praised the crackdown in the name of immigration reform. But uncertainty and chaos engulfed the little Moore County crossroads of about 5,000 people – many of them illegal immigrants, according to local officials.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/DN-raid_12tex.ART0.State.Edition2.3e6fe74.html

[originalpckelly]

29. Do you think anyone who wants to should be allowed to come from Mexico...

to America? Unrestricted with no formal procedures?

[AZBlue]

31. That's what I got from that.

Just open the borders and let anyone come on in - don't worry, we'll pick up the tab. We won't give our own citizens assitance but we'll help any non-citizen!

[originalpckelly]

35. These people have no respect for workers who do jobs that must be done...

but aren't exactly glamorous. No one should be screwed if they are a meat packer, and unfortunately by being willing to work for so little these immigrants are lowering wages for all workers in fields where they work. The companies which hire the illegal immigrants make it harder for companies who play by the rules to make money.

I think it's the most fucked up thing I have ever heard of.

[High Plains]

39. The immigrants are getting the same wage as everyone else.

They made up about 10% of the workforce at those plants. I don't think you can blame them for low wages in the meat packing industry.

I was a union meat packer at one time. It wasn't the Mexicans who broke the unions, but tough corporations and the inexorable logic of capitalism.

[AZBlue]

40. They made up over 40% of the workforce at these plants.

And that's the number that the company itself admits to - which means it's probably even higher.

[originalpckelly]

44. When did 40% turn into 10%?

:shrug:

[Jcrowley]

43. As long as we have policies

that drive them off their land most definitely.

So it's okay to allow the bananas, coffee, oil, rubber etc. to come across the border freely but not people? Maybe they are just chasing down THEIR stolen goods. Stolen by El Norte.

I strongly believe that they should close the border to Mexico. On one condition, which is you close it not only to people but to resources. If you say you want to close it to people but not resources, what you're saying is - I don't want you but I want the coffee that's grown on the land that used to be yours.

Why is this migration taking place? It's not taking place because suddenly a bunch of people from Guatemala decide they want to take an eco-tour of the strawberry fields in the San Joaquin valley. It's because their communities are being destroyed through the theft of the land. If you don't want these people moving up here then don't steal those people's lands, pretty simple solution.

[Hippo_Tron]

112. Better yet, lets force Mexico to allow unions as a condition of NAFTA

That will solve the problem overnight.

[Mugu]

42. It sounds like you're a very nice person, but

I believe that your “root cause” in the this case is misdirected. There's a reason that these folks want to come to America and work for slave wages. It's not like America is kidnapping Mexicans and bringing them here and forcing them to work.

There's a reason that isn't any jobs in Mexico and it's not America.


Regards, Mugu

[Jcrowley]

48. What do you think that reason is?

Do you deny the history of US foreign policy in Latin America and how that has affected people there?

You too sound like a nice person and the reason there aren't any jobs in Mexico is precisely because of US Imperialism. Should we go through it case by case and examine it in detail?

Must go now but I strongly suggest some folks read the history of US intervention in the last 60 years and recognize how that impacts what we see today.

What do you think life would be like here if a great percentage of our resources were taken by another country for decades?

[originalpckelly]

50. So when do you plan on ponying up your job?

It's easy to say it when you aren't the person who has their job to an illegal immigrant willing to work for less. So when do you plan on doing it?

[Mugu]

51. Clean up the corruption of the immigrant's home government

and the jobs will come. Buying products from other countries is not the same as stealing resources. Maybe instead, you could argue that America is stealing the other country's labor force.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

46. Tell me please the names of the people who sold those illegal immigrants

the identities. They also have been arrested I assume?

on edit:

The names of the Swift owners that allowed them to be hired, they've also been arrested no doubt?

[Mugu]

47. Now that they've got the people using the stolen identities,

they can squeeze them to find the people that sold it to them.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

49. I will wait patiently

let me know

[AZBlue]

59. Unfortunately, no Swift managers have been charged with a crime.

They should be charged as well and the company fined.

Those whose identities have been stolen have reported different accounts (one woman's husband sold her info, another two said they lost their wallets, etc). However, a good percentage of this particular groups' stolen identities were sold bought from Pedro Castorena who operated in the Denver area (whose been indicted in Colorado on these charges). How else do you think they knew for sure there were so many illegal immigrants in these particular plants? That combined with the fact that so many stupidly refused to go to work earlier this year to attend a pro-illegal immigration rally made them easy targets.

[Mugu]

64. What crimes you believe that management should be charged with?

Regards, Mugu

[AZBlue]

72. Knowingly hiring illegal workers.

They went to court to try to stop this raid because they had advance notice of it. They maintained that it would adversely affect their business and therefore should be stopped. In the court documents they are quoted as stating that at least 40% of their workers were illegal immigrants. So their claims of innocence are obviously false.

They knew they were illegal and yet they not only hired them and accepted their illegal documentation but they also tried to block Immigration from doing its job. For these reasons I'm looking up any and all Swift companies and plan on boycotting them, even if it's just a boycott of one. I'd really like to see some Swift employees brought up on charges, but I know that won't happen.

[Mugu]

76. If the company did knowingly hire persons that they knew to be illegal

then I agree with you that there should be prosecutions of the guilty.

Regards, Mugu

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. In Worthington, Minnesota, there were schoolchildren who came home to

an empty house.

Note the Swift company officials acting all innocent in this story.

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/873328.html

[Mugu]

54. There's no doubt that the children are victims,

but so are the kids of drug dealers and other criminal offenders. The kids are victims of their parent's illegal behavior, not the behavior of the authorities.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

55. Merry Christmas Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

56. Victims of corporate greed

[Mugu]

58. The greedy corporation did exactly what to cause the pain of these children?

The corporation provided a job and paid a wage to people that presented themselves as legal immigrants when they weren't.

Happy Holidays,

Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

60. The corporation looked the other way

The corporation knew exactly what the truth was

[Mugu]

61. You're arguing facts that are not in evidence.

If it is found that the company behaved improperly I'll expect them to be punished as well. It's not often that I find myself on this side of the argument, but without facts it's unfair to assign blame.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

67. Like Halliburton?

:rofl:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=928662&mesg_id=931391

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=928662&mesg_id=931160

[Mugu]

68. I'm not sure what your point is.

[seemslikeadream]

69. Why are you so concerned with illegal aliens and not

the real thieves that are destroying this country?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=928662&mesg_id=931070

[Mugu]

73. My complaint is against thieves

such a people that steal other people's identities. What thieves are you talking about?

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

75. show me where you fight so strongly against

corporate fraud, Mr. Crime Fighter

or are you just worried about the poor?

[Mugu]

80. Well you've got me there.

[seemslikeadream]

81. now just so we've understand each other

I did mean the poor who commit crimes

[Mugu]

85. I think that there is little chance that we are going to ever understand

each other beings as I have no idea what you're talking about.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

89. I just want to know if you only care about poor people that commit crimes?

[Mugu]

92. I care about people who commit crimes.

You're the only one that has said anything about socioeconomic class.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

93. That's really good to know

I'd love to talk corporate crimes with you, let me know where you might be having that discussion. I feel that is hurting you and me and this country more that illegals.

[Ms. Clio]

97. then you must have believed that Clinton should have been impeached for perjury

And that you should be arrested for every "crime" you ever committed -- jaywalking, underage drinking, speeding, running a red light.

[Mugu]

100. You don't believe that laws should be enforced?

Or perhaps you don't think that we should have any laws. Maybe you can explain why Bush shouldn't be prosecuted if guilty of a crime?


Regards, Mugu

[Jcrowley]

116. Justice?

[Ms. Clio]

120. That's my question to you -- should Clinton have been impeached for perjury?

Should you be prosecuted next time you jaywalk?

Should the laws be enforced equally for everybody, or do you, Mugu, get to pick and choose?

[Ms. Clio]

98. yes, indeed -- not clamoring for the arrest of the company executives, I notice

no, THEY deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[Mugu]

101. Find a crime that the company committed and I'm with ya.

If anybody is being selective about prosecutions it's you.

Regards, Mugu

[Ms. Clio]

121. But you know that all the people rounded up committed a crime, right?

That whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't ring any bells with you in their case, it seems.

[seemslikeadream]

70. Because something is happening here But you don't know what it is

You walk into the room
With your pencil in your hand
You see somebody naked
And you say, "Who is that man?"
You try so hard
But you don't understand
Just what you'll say
When you get home

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

You raise up your head
And you ask, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points to you and says
"It's his"
And you say, "What's mine?"
And somebody else says, "Where what is?"
And you say, "Oh my God
Am I here all alone?"

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

You hand in your ticket
And you go watch the geek
Who immediately walks up to you
When he hears you speak
And says, "How does it feel
To be such a freak?"
And you say, "Impossible"
As he hands you a bone

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To just give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations

You've been with the professors
And they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have
Discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of
F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read
It's well known

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you
And then he kneels
He crosses himself
And then he clicks his high heels
And without further notice
He asks you how it feels
And he says, "Here is your throat back
Thanks for the loan"

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

Well, you walk into the room
Like a camel and then you frown
You put your eyes in your pocket
And your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law
Against you comin' around
You should be made
To wear earphones

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?

[Eric J in MN]

105. Exactly. They should give people notice that they're...

...suspected of immigration violations, and give them time to clear up the matter. That way they can make plans for their children etc. when going to a hearing.

The federal government shouldn't just grab and lockup hundreds of people in s a surprise raid.

[HuffleClaw]

63. ok, lets say they instead rounded up all the BLACK people

on 'suspicion of gang activity'... i expect the media 'spin' would be a tad different.

[Mugu]

65. The authorities were there because of a big cluster of identity thefts.

They then detained people that were found to be violating the law.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

71. Why are you not concerned with all the off shore accounts

that enable the rich to pay no taxes?

[Mugu]

77. There's lots of things that I'm concerned about.

But what in the world does off-shore accounts have to do with this discussion?

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

78. I'm trying very hard to figure out why

you are so concerned about these people. If you are truly a crime fighter of "ALL" show me

Show me where you have voiced so much concern for other crimes

[AZBlue]

82. Why on earth does Mugu have to "show" you anything?

None of us owe you anything.

[seemslikeadream]

87. just wondering AZBlue

why a person would be so concerned about this crime, just wondering if he was as concerned about other crimes, is that a crime?

[Mugu]

83. I don't know who “these people” are that you speak of.

And I have no need to prove things that I have not commented on (such as off-shore accounts and crime fighting.) I get the impression that you wish to argue simply for the sake of argument. Even through I appreciate the opportunity to get my post count up.


Regards,

Mugu

[Eric J in MN]

106. Tell the specific people suspected of identity theft that...

...they have 48 hours to turn themselves in or they will be arrested.

Don't arrest hundreds of people in a surprise raid.

[AZBlue]

74. Depends.

They didn't just go in there blindly, hoping they might find some illegal immigrants. They knew for a fact that almost half the workforce there was illegal. Check-out the case against Pedro Castorena - he'd been supplying many of them with their stolen identities. The Feds got a lot of info from his little operation before they went near Swift.

So, in response to your question...if they had similar information that another plant's employees were participating in gang activities, raided the plant and indeed found that those employees were part of gang-related crimes, I think the media coverage would be about the same.

Breaking the law en masse is still breaking the law, no matter what color your skin or your nationality.

[Jcrowley]

103. Can you answer these questions

The way to find the "illegals" is....????

Everyone must prove their innocence or they will be presumed guilty. Everyone. Everyone must be stopped. Everyone must show papers. Everyone must justify their very existence to any law enforcement officer at any time.

But how? What would prove that one was innocent? Documents? What sort of documents? The more draconian the sweeps, the more incentive to create false documents and the better the false documents will get. The better they get, the harder for law enforcement or employers to know the difference, which will lead to calls for MORE comprehensive and intrusive police work. The more comprehensive and intrusive the police work, the more people will resist.

This "problem" as people are imagining it, is not solvable. It's not even a problem it's a symptom.

Glance at a group of people going about their business the next time you are out. Are they "legal?" Can you tell? How could you tell? Should they be interrogated? If they aren't stopped and interrogated, how can you know whether or not they are legal? Should every group you see be stopped and interrogated? No? Only certain groups? Which groups and why?

Again the solution is easy. Stop stealing their land.

What in the world makes anyone think for a minute that a human being wants to pick up and leave home taking incredible risks along the way to insecurity in a foreign land. Well why this occurs is due to the abominable conditions in the place they once called home. Social dislocation. Examine the factors involved in creating those unlivable conditions. Now if you're not going to be a hypocrite this means no more bananas. No more coffee. No more rubber wheels. No more sugar.

[Mugu]

111. There's no need to cast a wide dragnet to catch illegals,

but when they're identified during police encounters such as traffic stops, domestic calls, or like in this case criminal activity (identity theft,) don't look the other way, enforce (or repeal) the law.

On the point of not checking immigration status because it will only encourage better forgeries, I going to bet that you lock the door to your home when you're away. Why? It only encourages battering rams and broken windows. Why bother to take the keys out of your car? It only encourages carjacking. By your logic why bother to enforce any laws? It only produces better criminals. I'm sorry, but that argument just won't fly.

Nobody with any humanity can blame people that want to escape the awful situations that they found themselves born into. But I can't agree with you that people come to America because America wrecked their homeland. America isn't perfect and has caused problems, but places such as Mexico are basket cases mainly because of the actions of their own corrupt governments.

Best regards, Mugu

[Jcrowley]

115. Unjust laws

How many do you think you could find?

Everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did was illegal. Same with The Underground Railroad. Blind obedience is extremely perilous and quite ignorant of historical parallels that reflect today's reality.

This is inaccurate:

"places such as Mexico are basket cases mainly because of the actions of their own corrupt governments."

and pretty much ignores the entire trajectory of events that brought about what is the Mexican government. In essence the statement is thoroughly devoid of meaning, substance and context.

What say ye to this?

• NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their 'death warrant.'
• NAFTA's service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.
• Wages along the Mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA, reported a Carnegie Endowment study. An over-supply of workers, combined with the crushing of union organizing drives as government policy, has resulted in sweatshop pay running sweatshops along the border where wages typically run 60 cents to $1 an hour.

<snip>

Falling industrial wages, peasants forced off the land, small businesses liquidated, growing poverty: these are direct consequences of NAFTA. This harsh suffering explains why so many desperate Mexicans -- lured to the border area in the false hope that they could find dignity in the US-owned maquiladoras -- are willing to risk their lives to cross the border to provide for their families. There were 2.5 million Mexican illegals in 1995; 8 million have crossed the border since then. In 2005, some 400 desperate Mexicans died trying to enter the US.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm

Do you know the history of US involvement in this part of the world? If so could you please give me an account that backs your statement I have highlighted? If not you might do well to gather more information for a better understanding of the causes.

[Mugu]

117. If the efforts that I prescribed don't work, then what's the the problem?

Catch them if you find them, if they don't surface, don't bother. I don't need to know history as you tell it, I know what the Mexican government has done. If NAFTA was unfair to the people of Mexico, then why did Mexico sign-on? Nobody held a gun to their heads. By your own testimony NAFTA has been a terrible weight for Mexicans. Is it possible that the Mexican government didn't have the best interests of their constitutes at heart? Or is it that only white Americans (In this case President Clinton) can be corrupt?

And if you think that the Mexican government is so good then maybe you think that we should follow their lead and treat our southern border and illegal immigrants the way they do their's.

I have to go to bed, you have more stamina than I. Good night.


Best Regards, Mugu

[Jcrowley]

123. Who do you think is in control?

Obviously you are unaware of the geopolitical arrangements and in total denial about this history. It's not "as I tell it" it is all in the public record.

Your words are very confused. You would do well to sit back and read more of what has been going on in this Hemisphere over the last century.

[Skidmore]

86. Good. It's time to reclaim industries and quit using the excuse

that Americans won't do those jobs to excuse slavery and other illegal activity.

[Eric J in MN]

107. Mass arrest isn't the answer. NT

NT

[seemslikeadream]

90. Child-abuse, yeah, child-abuse yeah,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhShERNIl2o

That until the basic human rights,
Are equally guaranteed to all,
Without regard to race,
I'll say "war"

Until that day the dream of lasting peace,
World-citizenship and the rule of
International morality will remain
Just a fleeting illusion to be pursued,
But never obtained.
And everywhere is war.

Until the ignoble and unhappy regime
Which holds all of us through,
Child-abuse, yeah, child-abuse yeah,
Sub-human bondage has been toppled,
Utterly destroyed,
Everywhere is war.

War in the east,
War in the west,
War up north,
War down south,
There is war,
And the rumors of war.

Until that day,
the african continent will know no peace
There is no continent,
Which will know peace.

Children, children.

Fight!

We find it necessary.
We know we will win.
We have confidence in the victory
Of good over evil
Of good over evil

Fight the real enemy!

[seemslikeadream]

94. Children In Limbo After Immigration Raids

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10527729/detail.html


Barr Middle School in Grand Island became a shelter for children on Tuesday. Teachers and other school officials spent the day finding safe places for children of parents in federal custody.


Just Another Day In Paradise
Think About It

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59dXGN2EDCc


She calls out to the man on the street
sir, can you help me?
Its cold and Ive nowhere to sleep,
Is there somewhere you can tell me?

He walks on, doesnt look back
He pretends he cant hear her
Starts to whistle as he crosses the street
Seems embarrassed to be there

Oh think twice, its another day for
You and me in paradise
Oh think twice, its just another day for you,
You and me in paradise

She calls out to the man on the street
He can see shes been crying
Shes got blisters on the soles of her feet
Cant walk but shes trying

Oh think twice...

Oh lord, is there nothing more anybody can do
Oh lord, there must be something you can say

You can tell from the lines on her face
You can see that shes been there
Probably been moved on from every place
cos she didnt fit in there

[Mugu]

114. The parents knew that this day could come and broke the law anyway.

If the law is wrong then change it. But making laws for parents that non-parents can't enjoy is discriminatory and obviously anti-gay.

Regards, Mugu

[seemslikeadream]

119. Halliburton subcontractor hires illegal immigrants for Katrina work

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/katrina3.html

WASHINGTON, Oct. 21 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- As many as 100 undocumented immigrants have been hired by a Halliburton subcontractor to clean-up areas damaged by Hurricane Katrina, a United States senator revealed.

[seemslikeadream]

91. SEPARATED WORKERS BY THEIR SKIN COLOR

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002144.php



NUH?

SEEN?

YA NO SEE IT?

[Ms. Clio]

99. of course they did -- these abuses are not new or unique in American history

I'm stunned and disgusted that the shameful "Operation Wetback" is occurring all over again.

[Ms. Clio]

125. "terrorizing an entire work force" -- Jim Papian of the UFCW on Democracy Now

For those with Dish, it repeats at 7:00 p.m. on Link TV.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=77481