Are patriarchal societies/institutions/religions demeaning to women?

[bloom]

[lonestarnot]

1. In their exercise of power over women, yes.

[TahitiNut]

43. I often think what we call "patriarchal" is merely the result of a lack of faith.

My father once said "motherhood is a matter of fact while fatherhood was a matter of faith." Ignoring for a moment that this isn't something a kid wants to hear from his father, I wonder whether the repeated pattern of 'patriarchal' societies speaks more to the common biological conundrum than anything else. "Oh ye of little faith." Is 'faithful' a prevalent issue?

With the rise of 'entitlements' and a political hierarchy that rested on inheritance, organized ("official") religions gained political power by arbitrating inheritance. From tribal shaman to Pope, the 'faith' in fatherhood seems to have been mirrored in the 'faith' in religion.

Just how common has paternity been questionable? :freak:

"Necessity is the mother of invention." :evilgrin: (Who's the father?)

[bloom]

51. It does seem that an important difference

in matriarchal societies is that men don't necessarily expect to know (Who's the father?)


So yeah- without that - there are fewer control issues.

[Cleita]

2. I can't believe anyone has to ask.

When I was young and rebeled against the double standard, I was told that I was better off as a woman because I was protected by men and put up on a pedestal. Of course that depended on how sweet and chaste I was and how good my cookies were. Oh, btw, I was always suspicious that the pedestal was so the men could look up my skirt.

Actually, I was semi-raised by nuns, living with them at times so I got to know them really well. Don't let the pious, veil wearing virgins fool you. They were every bit the equal of any man even though they pretended deference to the priests and bishops, they pretty much told them to mind their own business where their affairs were concerned.

The great abbesses of the Middle Ages discovered in the convent life a way to be the equal of the war lords and kings whose lands they lived in and how to be just as rich and powerful. I believe that the only way women will actually ever achieve real equality in the future is to keep men out of their lives except for pro-creation like the Amazon legends of the ancient world.

[CTyankee]

4. I did a major paper in grad school on HIldegard of Bingen

She was some woman! She kicked ass with her archbishop and with several popes, and the ruler Barberossi as well! She was smart as hell, knew her medicines, her theology, music, poetry, art, politics. She was a pre-Renaissance woman. She did it all. Plus, starting and maintaining 2 communities of Benedictine religious women.

In those days, women often went into the convent to avoid the health disaster of childbirth, which killed so many women. The intelllectual women found an outlet for their thinking and their research. It was a haven for them, really.

[bloom]

6. When I was in Connecticut recently...

I went on a tour of the Harriet Beecher Stowe center.

Found out in addition to writing I don't know how many books (including the most read book of the 19th century - besides the Bible) she was an artist and bore 7 children. There was a box of medicinal things - as if she had her own pharmacy. She was also very political and went on lecture tours. I think she was pretty amazing.

The tour guide mentioned that the checks she earned would have come in her husbands name.

[CTyankee]

8. I love the Stowe house. It takes secondplace to nearby Mark Twain

house, much grander of course, which you probably also saw.

It is always thus, with women, no?

[bloom]

12. Yes - we went to both.

I was glad we went to the Stowe Center first.


It was interesting that there was sort of an artist community there and that they would have been such close neighbors.

[bloom]

5. Interesting segment on Democracy Now! today

about the micro-credit banks and MUHAMMAD YUNUS getting the Nobel Peace prize ("Yunus shared the award with Grameen Bank which he founded thirty years ago".)....

MUHAMMAD YUNUS (Excerpt from his speech): I was shocked to discover a woman in the village, borrowing less than a dollar from the money lender, on the condition that he would have the exclusive right to buy all she produces at the price that he decides. This, to me, was a way of recruiting slave labor....

SUSAN DAVIS: It was a really moving moment, where Muhammad Yunus and Taslima Begum, on behalf of the Grameen Bank, accepted the Nobel Prize. I don't know if you realize, but Taslima Begum is one of the twelve members of the board of directors. She’s also one of nine village women who are also borrowers. So Taslima is one of those people that we talk about: the poorest of the poor trying to use microcredit to lift themselves out of poverty. Well, she actually did that. And she, like many of the other board members, were victims of child marriage, married at nine, remarried at twelve, had a life of -- it was very hard. They’ve had to work for everything they’ve got. So when she spoke out at the Nobel Peace Prize, I just lost it. It was one of those moments where you think, you know, we talk about empowerment, but this was it. It was the spirit of empowerment just ringing through her body. And for the first time, I think, the world heard a Nobel laureate who is from the poorest of the poor.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, explain exactly how it works, though Muhammad Yunus did go through it. How did she get the money in the very beginning? What is she given? What is a woman given?

SUSAN DAVIS: Microcredit is a poor woman's survival strategy that Yunus systematized and created a way to make it scalable and sustainable. So it’s a little loan without collateral. She would form a group with four other peers. So, together as a group of five, they would work with eight other groups in a center of 40. They would then have a Grameen Bank worker come to them, to their village. They do a lot of the discussing of whether this is a good idea or not. Does she know how to make tasty sweets? Will they sell? Can she actually raise, you know, goats or cows or sell the eggs from chickens? Is it a good idea? So they do that screening.

Then, they conduct all their business in public. Now, when’s the last time you heard about banking being conducted completely in public? But transparency creates accountability. No one rips off anybody, because they all see all the loans given, they see all the loans being repaid right in front of themselves. They may not be literate or even numerate, but they know how to watch and count when it comes to their own money. So they take little loans. Now they can do it from as short as three months to as long as three years. Usually, right now, they’re averaging about $120. They've made loans to seven million women in Bangladesh, and they’re also shareholders.

AMY GOODMAN: And why is women the case?

SUSAN DAVIS: Well, they started off in the early days just trying to get to 50/50 between men and women. And there are still, you know, 300,000 or 400,000 male borrowers. But after they got to 50/50, Yunus realized that women were actually better fighters of poverty, because all of the disposable income that they earned went right into the mouths of their kids and family to improve their health and nutrition. They then wanted a better roof over their head, you know, to prevent the rain from coming in or the cold.

So, they’ve lent now, from 1984 ‘til now, over 640,000 housing loans at a very low interest. And these are houses for a maximum of like $300. Yunus told that story Monday night at the concert, in fact, of what it means for a poor woman to have a house of her own. And I thought it’s just like Virginia Woolf, you know, talking about women needing a room of one's own.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/1451222

-------

I think it relates to your point, "I believe that the only way women will actually ever achieve real equality in the future is to keep men out of their lives except for pro-creation like the Amazon legends of the ancient world."

[Radical Activist]

10. That's a bleak view.

What you wrote about convents is very interesting, but I'd like to think a woman can achieve equality within marriage at least on a personal level.

[Cleita]

17. As a once married woman, marriage isn't the problem if the

guy you are married to is a decent person. As a matter-of-fact marriage affords you protection and money you would have a harder time getting on your own. It's the fact that you have to scrabble so much harder for these things if you aren't married and when your husband isn't around. I'm telling you some of the shit that I tolerated at work, I never told my husband because I knew he would try to protect me from it but it wasn't practical for us for him to do that, so I had to put up with the inequality and misogynism so we could live better.

However, if women lived in communes like nuns but without the vows, they could take hold of their destinies better, forming businesses and corporations. I'm not saying there wouldn't be room for marriage, there just wouldn't be room for any men running things until a few generations had passed.

[Karenina]

19. I remember reading some years ago

of a South American Indian society that believed it took at least 3 men to impregnate a female. When the desired result came about, they high-fived and ALL accepted the child as their own. I can only imagine the advantages such a child would have had. The papa who reveled in the toddler steps and taught language, the papa who taught traditions and the whys and wherefores and the papa who taught the coming into adulthood rituals. Maybe I'm just romanticising... :shrug:

[Cleita]

31. I read about that too. It seems though that our culture

has intervened now. I saw a cable channel documentary on it. They interviewed some of the older women who missed "the good old days".

Too bad.

[msongs]

3. are matriarchal societies etc demeaning to men?

in both cases, patriarchal and matriarchal, the answer is yes, maybe, no, depending on the situation.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[bloom]

7. Actually - not so much

From what I've read. re: are matriarchal societies etc demeaning to men?

Such societies tend to be more partnership based. All members of society are able to own property and participate in the running of the community.

[JVS]

9. That begs the question of whether they are truly matriarchal or just relatively matriarchal...

when compared to patriarchal societies.

[Morgana LaFey]

42. most were matrilineal not truly matriarchal

big difference

[Radical Activist]

13. What society would that be?

This is all hypothetical isn't it?

[bloom]

16. There have been a few matriarchal societies

recently and then there are some from history.

The difference is in inheritance, for one thing.

Simone de Beauvoir discusses it in "The Second Sex". Also Riane Eisler in "The Chalice and The Blade: Our History, Our Future."

I'm sure that there are many other sources.

[Radical Activist]

18. I cheated and looked at wikipedia

but I'll read up on it more. I thought there were some small societies that could be argued as being matriarchal but I know nothing about them.

[kiahzero]

21. How is that matriarchal then?

If both sexes are treated equally, that's egalitarian, not matriarchal or patriarchal.

[bloom]

24. I think it's like

when you have a matriarchy - the women don't expect to control the men. It's not like men who control women because they consider them to be like property or don't want them to have any power - men controlling women to have control of the children - as if they are assets.

Women don't have to control men to control the children. Women are more likely to focus on taking care of the children in matriarchal societies and men are off doing whatever.

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

Matriarchy is a form of society in which power is with the women and especially with the mothers of a community. The word matriarchy derives from the Latin word mater meaning mother and the Greek word archein meaning to rule. There exists a different term for 'women's rule,' namely gynecocracy, sometimes referred to as gynocracy.

Matriarchy is distinct from matrilineality, where children are identified in terms of their mother rather than their father, and extended families and tribal alliances form along female blood-lines. For instance, in Jewish Halakhic tradition only a person born of a Jewish mother is automatically considered Jewish. Hence Jewish descent is passed on from the mother to the child (see: Who is a Jew).

Matriarchy is also distinct from matrilocality, which some anthropologists use to describe societies where maternal authority is prominent in domestic relations, owing to the husband joining the wife's family, rather than the wife moving to the husband's village or tribe, such that she is supported by her extended family, and husbands tend to be more socially isolated.

Matriarchy is a combination of these factors; it includes matrilineality and matrilocality. But what is most important is the fact that women are in charge for the distribution of goods for the clan and, especially, the sources of nourishment, fields and food. This characteristic feature sees every clan member dependent beyond matrilineality and matrilocality and grants women such a strong position that these societies are now considered matriarchal.

Like in what I posted above from Democracy Now. The women - when they get loans - improve the standard of life for them and their children. I don't know why that does not happen as much when the men get the loans. That is the experience of the Grameen (sp?) bank. It suggests that the men are more likely to take off and not stick around to make sure that their children and the mothers of those children have what they need to survive.

[kiahzero]

25. That's egalitarian

the women don't expect to control the men

Then don't call it a matriarchy.

[bloom]

26. You're just assuming

that Matriarchies are the opposite of patriarchies. If you read about them - that is not how they are described. Women could pass down inheritance through the women - and not be controlling men the way men do women in a patriarchy.


Like it said in what I posted - "There exists a different term for 'women's rule,' namely gynecocracy, sometimes referred to as gynocracy."

[kiahzero]

27. I'm assuming that "matriarchy" means "matriarchy"

I'm sorry, I guess, for believing that "rule by mothers" meant "rule by mothers."

[bloom]

28. EX.

The Mosuo culture is most frequently described as a matriarchal culture; in fact, the Mosuo themselves frequently use this description, to attract tourism and interest in their culture. Sometimes, the Mosuo will be described instead as “matrilineal,” which is probably more accurate, but still doesn't reflect the full truth.

The fact is, the Mosuo culture defies categorization within traditional definitions. It is true that they have aspects of a matriarchal culture, in that women are the head of the house, property is passed through the female line, and women tend to make the business decisions. But political power tends to be in the hands of males, which disqualifies them as a true matriarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo

It's not always clear cut. Like this example at wikipedia. It's not really egalitarian - unless you figure that the women passing down the property and making the business decisions equals out the men having political power.

I think this is a pretty good example of how a matriarchy can work. It seems that our (patriarchal) culture assumes that if men had the political power that they would use that to take all of the power - the property and business, as well. That is not necessarily so.

One problem - as I see it - is that people see culture through our patriarchal lens - and make assumptions based on that.

[kiahzero]

29. ... your own source rebuts you.

The Mosuo culture is most frequently described as a matriarchal culture; in fact, the Mosuo themselves frequently use this description, to attract tourism and interest in their culture. Sometimes, the Mosuo will be described instead as “matrilineal,” which is probably more accurate, but still doesn't reflect the full truth.

So they're not really matriarchal. I agree.

[bloom]

30. If our own culture

was as matrilineal as they are - it would be quite a step. And quite a different culture from what we have.


Also - wikipedia seems to be playing down how matriarchal the culture is. Would you say that that culture is patriarchal - based on what you know? Or egalitarian? or something else?


One of the things that shows up in how history (or the present) is described - is that it is described with the bias of the patriarchy. So even when there have been cultures that are more matriarchal - that aspect has been ignored and/or minimized.

[Cleita]

34. I would love it if we adopted a matrilineal culture as a first step.

To me this would mean that all children born to a mother would get her family name not their father's. Since children usually stay with their mothers regardless of divorce, half siblings would have the same family name instead of the confusion I witnessed when I was in school of related kids having different names. I always thought that the issue of illigitemacy would die here too.

I know we don't talk about that very much these days but in some areas of this country it's still gossiped about. If all children of a mother bore the same family name, I believe the labeling could stop.

[bloom]

35. That would be a good first step. nt

[Radical Activist]

22. When you wrote that

all members of society will be able to own property and participate in running the community I think back to 1850-60's Utah, during the time when polygamy was legal and practiced openly. Women had the right to own property, divorce their husband, receive an education, have a career, vote, and they served in elected office. The first woman to serve in a State Senate was in Utah. I read about one family where five women married to one man all took turns living out east to get a professional education (as nurses I think but my memory isn't perfect here). The other wives would care for the children of the woman who was away. The women ran the affairs of the household and held jobs. Eventually, the wives decided the man they were married to was a free-loader, they all divorced him and went on living together and supporting eachother with their children.

I've always found it an odd contradiction that women in Utah during that time period probably had more rights than women anywhere else in America. Of course, that society was very patriarchal in other ways and polygamy practiced then was something different than the underground societies that practice it today. I've never figured out how to reconcile the patriarchal nature of polygamy and the Mormon church in that time period with the level of rights given to women at the same time. Its one of the many odd contradictions within Mormonism.

[JVS]

23. Utah Sux!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the opportunity for insightful commentary!

[H2O Man]

11. Other.

Some are. Some aren't.

[bloom]

14. Do you have any examples of patriarchal societies

that you think are not - that you like to share?

[Morgana LaFey]

45. Yeah, I wanna know too. 'cause I really question the

truth and accuracy of this statement. I REALLY do.

[Cameron27]

50. I can't figure out how they can possibly

NOT be demeaning to women, so I also would like some examples.

[Robeson]

15. Does a bear shit in the woods? Does a fat baby fart?....

...I know, crass examples, but, you get the point.

[EstimatedProphet]

20. IMO it depends

As someone pointed out, it is possible that matriarchial societies would be demeaning to men. Maybe not so much either.

From my limited understanding of the situation, matriarchial societies in reality are less demeaning of men than patriarchial societies are of women. That however is in part due to some really bad examples of partiarchial societies. On average they're probably about equal.

[dysfunctional press]

32. religion is demeaning to ALL human beings.

it's sad that so many people seem to think that they need that crutch to get through life.

[Morgana LaFey]

46. Patriarchal does not mean religioius

Religions can be patriarchal, of course, but you're conflating them as if the patriarchal is part of the definition of religion, or the characteristics of all religions. Not so.

[spoony]

48. Lame cliche aside, no human has ever existed

who didn't have a "crutch" in their life. You have at least one. Probably many more than that. Everyone does, so you can demean others' "crutches" all you like, it just makes your own hobbling about look ridiculous.

[me b zola]

33. I would love to see how the vote broke down according to gender

I know that there are men who will agree with your question, and women who will disagree, but I would like to see how it breaks down.

BTW, I answered yes.

[bloom]

36. For those answering "huh?"

I suggest you read (but not post to) this blog:

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/

and you'll get a different viewpoint about the patriarchy than what you usually hear.

[slackmaster]

37. OTHER: Are broad-brush, tautological poll questions of any value?

:shrug:

[bloom]

38. In light of some other threads...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2909091&mesg_id=2909091

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2911677


Some people clearly do not view patriarchal constructs and restrictions as demeaning to women.

I think it's interesting to see how many answer such a basic question. As some have suggested - it's hard to believe that there would be an answer besides 'yes'. For those who see it as self-evident - it's instructive to know how many do not.


Perhaps it is instructive to those who accept the patriarchy as it is - to know how many do not.

[slackmaster]

39. In a patriarchal system, one gender exploits the other

In a matriarchal system, it's the other way around.

I vote for a balanced system.

[bloom]

40. the way it's been

Matriarchal societies are egalitarian. Patriarchal ones are not.

http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/goettnerabendroth.html

[slackmaster]

41. The statement fails the Unbiased Being From Another Planet test

Must sterilize.

:nuke:

[Morgana LaFey]

44. Yes, by definition. nt

[The Magistrate]

47. Yes, Ma'am, They Are

[Cameron27]

49. Yes, absolutely demeaning to women and some are

lethal for women.