Help me understand - how can people deny the Holocaust actually happened

[LynneSin]

I'm watching "The Daily Show" last night and Stewart was doing a bit on the Holocaust 'Deniers' convention in Tehran and it really made me think a bit about these people who claim the Holocaust never existed.

What kind of bad brown acid are these people tripping on. I know there are conspiracy nuts out there everywhere who deny some of the strangest things like evolution, the moon walk, the lone gunman theory and the concept that Jim Morrison is really dead. But unlike these other things which feasibly (and I use that term very loosely) could be believable in the sense that for many of these things we might not have 100% solid proof (for the record I believe in Evolution, man walked on the moon, that Oswald did not act alone and that Jim Morrison is probably alive somewhere in hibernation from the rest of the world).

But as for the Holocaust not happening, what brain fart could actually justify that one? I mean we've seen the camps, we've liberated those who survived in it. I mean, what were those camps for - a massive weight loss camp for anorexic wannabes? And yet it outstounds me that not only are there people who believe that the Holocaust was a hoax but hell, they'll have conventions for it.

Someone help me understand these nut jobs!

[LSK]

1. same reason people still claim Iraq had WMD

Because to admit the truth would shatter their entire world view and comfort level.

Unfortunately our President and VP are those type of people.

[sir_captain]

2. Two comments

1) It is things like these conventions that cause many Jews (myself sometimes included) to see anti-semitism all around them. Because to me, there is no other explanation.

2) Particularly considering that you would think that these nutjobs would hero worship Hitler and think that the mass murder of 6 million Jews was the greatest thing ever rather than denying that it ever happened.

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. I'm more interested in the why

What do the deniers hope to accomplish? I would think their agenda of hate would be better suited by admitting the facts.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. They hope

to remove legitimacy from Israel.

They understand that the "will" to create Israel was largely a response to the Holocaust. If they can claim the Holocaust never happened, then the nations involved were "duped by the Jews" and therefore, Israel's founding becomes less legitimate.

That and they're morons.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. That makes sense in a weird, twisted way n/t

[zreosumgame]

30. well, that makes so little sense

Since it was founded in large part on the basis of a jewish splinter group commiting terror and murder, the members of which then went on to join the IDF and the Mossad. But that does not mean the holocaust never happened. Or that only jews were murdered by the nazi's.

[Lurking Dem]

31. Read a book.

[zreosumgame]

37. try it yourself, try more then 'My Pet Goat' this time

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. No shit. Elie Weisel's "Night" is a good one. Maybe "Diary Of Ann Frank?"

"Because of Romek: A Holocaust Survivor’s Memoir" by David Faber?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. Unfortunately, I DID read all of your disgusting post. That's the point. Nice name calling

very mature. Who should read "My Pet Goat?" :eyes:

[zreosumgame]

60. you don't want insults?

then keep then from your own posts. Too bad you can dish it out but can't take it when tossed back at you.

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. Please point to where I called you a name.

Talk about "can dish it out, but can't take it." :eyes: All I did was recommend a few good books for you to read and you called me a MORAN. If you wish to read "My Pet Goat" exclusively, have at it. I just thought you would benefit by reading some biographies written by victims of Hitler and his Nazi Party. Maybe embrace some TRUTH for a change.

[zreosumgame]

89. you called me disgusting and it has been reported thanks

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. No I didn't. I said your POST is disgusting and it IS. Thanks.

:rofl::rofl:

[MonkeyFunk]

32. Without the support of Britain

and the United States, Israel would NOT have been formed when it was. And it was a response to the Holocaust that created the "will" in those nations to create Israel.

[question everything]

36. The same can be said for all the countries in the Middle East

that, until WW1 were part of the Ottoman Empire.

It was Britain, and France, that arbitrarily drew the boundaries of the countries, mostly to give kingdoms to the sons of Sharif Hussein who helped the British.

Look at Iraq and look at Lebanon, even Kuwait that was part of Iraq until Churchill decided to prevent it from access to the Gulf.

Or even the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and Gaza. Until 1967 they were ruled by Jordan and by Egypt and no one was rallying on behalf of the disenfranchised Palestinians.

[zreosumgame]

46. history is lost on those like the one you are answering

they are lost in their little fantasies of how 'holy' only one side or the other is, so the other side must automatically be 'evil'.

[cali]

48. I savor posts as rich in irony as yours.

They're unwittingly quite amusing.

[zreosumgame]

56. how so? how have I promoted one side as holy

and the other as evil in this thread? Have I posted saying the holocaust did not happen? or that all jews are angels or devils? Or all Arabs either one? or is the 'irony' you want to see just you making your keyboard all sticky again?

[cali]

67. You claimed that:

Since it was founded in large part on the basis of a jewish splinter group commiting terror and murder, the members of which then went on to join the IDF and the Mossad. But that does not mean the holocaust never happened. Or that only jews were murdered by the nazi's.


While it's certainly true that terrorism was committed by Jewish splinter groups, it's not true to suggest, as you did, that such action was what Israel was founded on. And although, you're absolutely correct about many others being victims of the Holocaust, I've noticed that quite frequently the people that point that out, do so not because of their feeling for those groups- the Roma, gays, the disabled- but to argue that the Holocaust wasn't really about exterminating Jews. Now, perhaps that's not the reason you pointed it out. I can't say.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lurking Dem]

73. I have assumptions

about people who can't spell "zero" but you seem to make a few of your own as well.

[cali]

74. My record here speaks for itself

I've started threads to condemn anti-Muslim crap and anti-semitism. I suggest you do a search if you're interested. Nothing I said was remotely bigoted, and you failed to address the fact that you made an incorrect assertion about Israel's founding.

[zreosumgame]

88. are you claiming the Irgun did not exist?

or that they did not commit acts of terror in order to try to force britan to help set-up Israel? Beyond that, who ever asked about your record? I do not see where i have addressed any of your posts so i am a bit confused why you would shout about it in the first place?

[cali]

94. Try reading.

Here's what I said upthread:

While it's certainly true that terrorism was committed by Jewish splinter groups, it's not true to suggest, as you did, that such action was what Israel was founded on.

Duh. that's hardly claiming that Irgun did not exist. And you called me a bigot, so I suggested you check my many posts denouncing all kinds of bigotry.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

118. I agree up to a point, but I worry about how often "six million deaths" is quoted for the holocaust.

Just over half the victims of the Holocaust were Jewish.

The correct answer to the question "Did six million really die" as posed by holocaust deniers is "no". Eleven or twelve million people died in the camps, and I think the non-Jewish half of those get ignored worryingly often.

[cali]

121. You're right

that the correct answer to the question is at that at least 11 or 12 million died. And those victims should never be forgotten. I didn't mean to suggest that those deaths weren't as tragic or as heinous as the death of 6 million Jews.

From an excellent piece:

The Nazis sought to annihilate all Jews and all enemies of the state. Every Jew was to be wiped out, but not necessarily every Russian, Serb, or Yugoslavian. That millions of non-Jews were also killed demonstrates the determination and magnitude of the Nazi extermination program to eliminate anyone who could even remotely be considered an enemy of the state. Current estimates based on documents from Nazi war records, and official government documents of various countries, place the death toll of people murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust as conservatively over 15 million non-combatant people.

<snip>

http://demiorator.blogspot.com/2005/01/non-jewish-holocaust-history.html

[sir_captain]

53. Hahahaha

pot calling the kettle black if I've ever seen it

Thanks for the entertainment

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

119. British Support? ha!

The British did nothing but play the jews off the arabs and the arabs off the jews. The British had no desire to give the jews a state in reality, let alone one on paper. The British gave up on the whole issue, asking the UN to step in and decide what to do with the Palestinian Mandate. It was the entire UN general Assembly that partitioned Palestine. Great Britain choose to abstain from the partition vote. And the US only voted to partition cause the USSR did. Other then that, what support are you taking about?

[cali]

34. wrong.

It makes tons of sense. It's an attempt to delegitimize the founding of Israel. It's also plain old raw hate and bigotry on display. As someone else suggested; read a book.

[Lurking Dem]

42. Apparently my response was unworthy.

However, if many actually think the Irgun were responsible (largely or otherwise) for the creation of a state it would go a long way to explaining the motivations of today's terrorist acts.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

49. temper, temper

little zero. Calling someone a moran because you're utterly unable to counter their argument only exposes your own weakness.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. ...

:popcorn:

[Lurking Dem]

54. .

I'll bet you're loads of fun at parties.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Hope to accomplish? I suspect embarassment of the U.S.

That's why they're flying in a former U.S. Congressman as a keynote speaker.

[zreosumgame]

59. for themselves as well

for them to deny historical fact is as stupid as when Israel tries to claim protection of UN resolutions yet has never kept their side of one in all their history. Or us (collectivly via our selected reps at the time)in the US demanding protection of dumbaya from war crime trials while demanding it of others.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Sure.

But everybody's already written them off as anti-semites anyways.

[MonkeyFunk]

84. Slight correction

David Duke was a Louisiana State Representative. He was never a congressman.

[wryter2000]

4. What allows them to think that Republics are good at keeping us safe?

And other nonsense. As that wonderful fellow from Vanity Fair says, to win, they don't have to disprove the obviously truth of what liberals say. They just have to muddy the water.

A few details of what we "know" about the Holocaust (like lampshades made out of human skin) turn out not to be true. They jump on that and scream "what else isn't true? Huh? HUH?"

Then, of course, they discount anything the survivors say, because they don't want to believe the truth. "And anyway, they lied about the lampshades."

[stillcool]

5. Conspiracy...

to obtain land in the middle-east. I think that's what 'they' consider the motive...and I don't think they deny that Jews were killed in Hitler's Germany, but they think the numbers were inflated to evoke sympathy and provide the necessity for a Jewish state. That's my understanding anyway.

[slackmaster]

7. Same kind of mental gymnastics that lets people deny evolution

They have made a commitment to think a certain way, and must reject anything that conflicts with their chosen world view.

[JNelson6563]

33. Well said.

:toast:

[cali]

78. Not even close. n/t

[Kagemusha]

8. It's hard to try and give the question a serious answer.

Even the slightest attempt to insert a bit more knowledge into the argument will, in and of itself, be interpreted as anti-Semitism and defending Holocaust deniers.

Just stop trying to understand. It's safer for all concerned.

[AngryAmish]

9. Because a lot of folks just don't like Jews.

[underpants]

11. Yes and the white supremists have undertaken this as their new product

They had always hated Jews of course but in this day and age they discovered that it could be harder to get white young men to hate blacks but anti-semitism is a great recruting tool.

I read an article about this a while back. Duke sees this as his new mission and much of that crowd is following suit.

Oh they hate Catholics too. A lot of far RW organizations do too but that is just a coincidence.

[brazos121200]

10. I read a book recently entitled: "Why People Believe Weird Things" and

in it the author compares the holocaust deniers with the creationists. He argues that some people believe these things because of deep inner longings he calls wishful thinking, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He says there are manipulators behind the scenes who know how to take advantage of people's gullibility to advance their own self-serving agendas. There is an anti-semitic industry out there who will blame all the world's ills on the jews, and the holocaust just doesn't fit in with their worldview. In the creationist's case, they have a deep aversion to thinking that they are descended from the "lower animals" and so just deny the scientific evidence for evolution which is overwhelming.

[H2O Man]

12. Hatred does

terrible things to a person. Those who hate, become hate.

[cali]

14. Well said. n/t

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

16. Not true that the primary interest is

whether or not there were really gas chambers. First of all, there's massive amounts of evidence documenting the use of gas chambers. Everything from receipts to photographs to thousands of eyewitnesses. How can you possibly even think this is open to question. Just google for god's sake.

The purpose of the meeting may be harder to explain, but it can be chalked up to deriding Jews for political puposes amoung other things.

[sir_captain]

19. Are you serious?

[WinkyDink]

22. Have you never heard of Zyklon-B? Have you never read the Nazis' own

descriptions of the pyramids of victims?

[EST]

15. Holocaust deniers invariably came to the age of independent

thought after WWII. I would have said rational thought but that would presuppose these cranks capable of rational thought.

Fascists do not want their fuhrer badmouthed-it upsets their worldview, wherein there are some people who are better than others and that people has to be them. Any acknowledgment that jews are normal thinking, feeling people is anathema to them.

Believe it or not, there are people in the world who believe-I mean committed belief-in things for which there exists exactly zero proof, in the face of considerable evidence to the contrary.

These people are insane and should be disallowed for any job or office which allows them to influence the not quite as crazy but malleable among us. Unfortunately, in order to guarantee free speech for those with rational, thoughtful opinions, that freedom has to be guaranteed for all-even unbalanced idiots.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Same folks who believe the "happy slaves" mythology in the south.

[WinkyDink]

20. Let's see: Ignorance; hatred; ignorance;

anti-Semitism.
Don't even get me started on the psychological problems involved.

[Bluerthanblue]

21. Perhaps for the same reason no one really cares about what

we did to the Native Americans that lived on this ground we call America now-

Or who believe we can and should justify shoving 'democracy' down the throats of people in a mid-eastern nation- while claiming it has nothing to do with oil- and everything to do with 'liberation' and 'the safety of the world'-

Or that the oppression of the people who live(ed) in the area known as the "Gaza strip" deserve what happens to them- (on both sides) The citizens, the little people are the ones who pay with their lives for the lust and saber rattling of the powerful- elite.

Or those that blame the people of New Orleans/Gulf Coast for the abyssmal treatment they endured, died because of, and continue to suffer through, in this, the wealthiest, most powerful nation on earth.

The reason is that
truth- when it is uncomfortable, or 'inconvienient' is often easier denied, minimized or ignored.

And denial, kills.

Death is something none of us will ultimately be able to deny.


slipping into depression yet again...

blu

[WinkyDink]

23. "Not caring" is not the equivalent of a total denial of reality.

[H2O Man]

27. Yep.

I like that: "total denial of reality." That is, in my opinion, the most important statement on this most interesting thread.

A couple thoughts: one DUer notes they have read a book that compares the Holocaust deniers with those who believe in the creation myth. Actually, creation myths are a world-wide attempt by our ancestors to explain reality, often in very insightful and poetic ways. The Holocaust deniers are attempting to confuse reality, always in the most hateful of manners that unites their members with those who were responsible for one of the ugliest chapters in human history.

The Holocaust is, without any rational debate, the most well-documented attempts at genocide in human history. Even taking just the DU membership, we have numerous people who had family members die in those terrible death camps, as well as people who had relatives fight against the Nazi machine.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. please forgive me

if this sounds offensive- or politically incorrect.... but I have to ask this question...

And in order to ask it, I have to preface with this statement- I in NO way doubt that the Holocaust happened, that it was savage, brutal, and something that should NEVER be forgotten, or repeated-

Having said that.

Is it just the sheer numbers? Is it that this atrocity happened to people who for the most part 'resemble' (ethnically- physically-socially) so many people who have exercised and continue to exercise power in this world that makes what happened under the reign of Adolf Hitler so contemptible, and so ...... above any other suffering/genocide/atrocities ever committed????

Somehow, I- and I don't understand why- there is a kind of mystical ... 'holiness' attached to the suffering of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust--- I in NO way desire to minimize the grotesque, vile, and evil (in its truest sense) actions that were done to a large population of people BECAUSE they were born 'Jewish'- but does that make the continued murdering of people who are Black- Female- Arabic- Gay- Poor- "less than" or somehow... a lesser atrocity? Especially when the murdering, torturing- brutal abuses are being carried out not only as we speak, but without enough outrage, and with the freedom to 'condemn' those who are victims as somehow complicit in their plight?

I'm not asking this clearly- but people who said of the body of an African American citizen, floating bloated in the yard of a home in the lower wards of NOLA " hey, they chose to STAY there- no one made them stay there" when in truth, some people had absolutely NO choice as to whether to leave- or over the fact that they were born into poverty in a place in America where the govt- but little oversight and safety measures in place to protect the most vulnerable in our society from becoming victims of nature and neglect?

Where are the 'compensation packages' for the Katrina victims? Where are the cash settlements and law suits that match those of the victims of 9/11? Why is the World Trade Center seen as "hallowed ground" yet, people are eager to just let the ocean have the ground that swallowed the lives of innocent vulnerable people in the gulf coast? Why do we pay lip service to the Native Americans?- even boldly admit our horrendous treatment of them, yet do nothing, (or the equivalent of nothing) to alleviate their suffering, loss, and near extermination???

Is it the 'identification factor'? is it "my pain is bigger than yours"? I don't understand- and I want to. Because what happened to each person in the Holocaust is no more or less vile to me, than any other act of premeditated cruelty, murder, or atrocity committed anywhere.

I identify with the young girl "Abeer" in Iraq- and the suffering that she endured because she was born female- attractive- and vulnerable. Her family perished along with her- and her relatives, neighbors and fellow citizens have every reason to hold a conference about the atrocities of American Imperialist atrocities- ditto the Guantanamo Detainees- ditto the Native Americans- ditto- Gays and lesbians in the US and abroad- ditto the poor and marginalized people everywhere who bear the brunt of the worst of human 'nature'....

sorry... no offense intended... I think it's time to break from DU for a bit----- I'm getting overload.

peace,
blu

[sir_captain]

55. The difference is rather simple

The most enlightened, leading scientific and academic country in the world decided to systematically exterminate an entire population of people. That has never happened before or since. There was no anarchy, no breakdown of law and order. It was a simple and collected decision to load innocent people onto trains, work them til they were nearly dead, load them into gas chambers and then incinerate the evidence in ovens. It is inhuman in a way that I hope is never duplicated.

It does not lessen the horrific nature of the atrocities in, say, Rwanda or Darfur, but it does make them different.

[Bluerthanblue]

75. I cannot

blind myself to the reality that people have always been victimized, tortured, murdered and mutilated by "some of the most enlightened, leading scientific and academic" powerful elite people who happened to be in power-

Have you ever heard of the Clearances in the Northern British Isles? People were burned out of their homes, murdered, raped, mutilated to make way for the grazing of sheep, and the making of money-

Have you not heard of the Crusades?

Do you know that we chased Chief Joseph and the tiny remnant of his people unmercifully as they sought refuge in Canada???

The Jewish people have grown and flourished.... can you say the same for the Native Americans?

What about the Gypsies, the homosexuals that Hitler chose to hate- and torment? How much better treatment- respect- legal freedoms to they enjoy???

This is an interesting read:

http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25346-2465962,00.html

[sir_captain]

97. I don't think you get my point

the crusades, for instance, were certainly barbaric. But they did not have the systemized scientific methodology that the nazis--in particular guys like Goebbels and Mengele--possessed. The crusades were purported to be an attempt to reclaim the holy lands and damn anyone who gets in my way. This certainly does not excuse their behavior, but it is still different from a cold and calculated decision to euthanize any person who even had a Jewish great-grandparent in order to facilitate the construction of a master race.

What does the idea that Jews still exist and have "flourished" (frankly, I find that statement somewhat disturbing) have to do with anything?

I also fail to understand your point regarding the Gypsies and homosexuals who were persecuted by Hitler.

Are you trying to suggest that Jews are getting some sort of unequal positive treatment? Cause that's sure how it sounds...

[Lurking Dem]

102. I'd like to hear an answer as well.

I don't think I am understanding her point on that post and the one below.

[Bluerthanblue]

115. this answer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2917066&mesg_id=2920535

would apply as well to your question Sir_Captain-

Sorry not to answer more personally-

blu

[sir_captain]

117. No problem

your answer elsewhere is still disturbing, however. And it would seem to me that your posts indicate an advancing level of personal attachment to an argument that is still not very well articulated.

Again, let me be clear. All genocide and murder is horrible and unconscionable. You asked what made the holocaust different. Several posters have pointed out to you that 1940s Germany was the leading scientific and cultural country in the world and that their scientific and systematic decision to murder millions of innocent people in such a cold and calculated manner is an event that is unique in human history. This is really not a very controversial statement.

For some reason that I cannot fathom, you have reacted to this by launching into very tired arguments about the current political state of US aid to Israel. What does this have to do with anything?

[WinkyDink]

105. Atrocities abound, as have and do mass murders. But we are speaking

of the 1940's, NOT the early Middle Ages, or the late 1870's, or even of Stalin's camps.

We are speaking of the MOST ENLIGHTENED and CULTURED nation of the first half of the 20th Century---home to Bach, Beethoven, Freud, Einstein, Goethe, et al.---using STATE TECHNOLOGY to murder its own citizens, NOT because they would not convert, or that they had different skin color, or that they were somehow less civilized indigenous peoples in "need" of conquest, or immigrants, or for any reason other than that, based upon lunatic "ethnic purity" concepts coupled with the age-old "blame the Jew" anti-Semitism, Germans wanted "lebensraum" that would be "Judenfrei".

And you know, there IS something awe-ful about the number "Six Million".

But hey---if you want to make the world more aware of other state slaughters, more power to you. To do so by "Mel Gibsoning" the Holocaust, though, is not, IMHO, appealing in the least.

[Bluerthanblue]

110. may I ask you if you

have a personal attachment to this issue-?

The reality is, that there ARE those who USE the Nazi Holocaust to defend actions taken against innocent civilians- And I do NOT believe those who suffered and died at the hands of the aggressors, the murderers, the 'sociopathic' killers who called themselves Nazis- would approve of the acts of barbarism committed by SOME who fly the banner of Zionism, and claim their legacy of suffering and death as an excuse or justification for doing evil to others, (in the truest sense of the word) and then have the audacity to try to claim innocence.

Call me any name you like- belittle my character, intelligence, judgment, sanity- (you won't be the first, OR last person to do so)- But, That doesn't change anything.

What you find 'appealing' isn't really of much importance to me, I'm sorry to admit.

That you believe you can intimidate or dismiss the very real, tangible, and lasting suffering of a myriad of people, from all kinds of backgrounds, through-out the history of human'kind' as 'lesser' than that of those who suffered terribly at the hands of the Nazis- IS important to me- and is a sad example of your own shortsightedness, and prejudice, I believe.

I will tell you this- disprove it if you can- The Native American People have suffered for over 200 yrs from the actions that we "freedom-loving 'salt of the earth' enlightened, intelligent, and 'compassionate" American people inflicted upon them" while holding our heads up in the global community. The survivors of THIS genocide, continue to live with oppressive poverty, depression substance abuse problems, and lack of opportunity. They- as a race of people, as a ethnic society- are NOT 'flourishing'- Neither do they receive the compassion, financial, and economic support, or advocacy from our very own government, that the Nation of Israel does.

Can you explain this?

You point out a very SAD and telling truth-
That being, the acts which "Cultured Societies" love to disassociate from, claim superiority to, or the incapability of ever doing-
were done-
and ARE done - by those whose actions reveal the "inhuman" "barbaric" and "monstrous" sides that exist within each and every one of us.

To deny that reality, is the first step towards the edge of the abyss-

Each person in this world has a RIGHT to live without fear of the worst of human'kind' being visited upon them- regardless of what 'their ancestors' may have experienced-



peace,
blu

[sir_captain]

116. I'm sorry--you are out of line

No one is suggesting that the death of anyone or any group of people is somehow of greater or lesser significance than any other.

*You* asked about what made the holocaust different from other historical examples of genocide, and you have received perfectly acceptable answers that did not at all reference Israel or Zionism.

For some reason that is very difficult to fathom--perhaps your writing is simply not very clear--you seem to have taken these factual answers very personally and have started to spew anti-Zionist rhetoric which, wherever you fall on the issue of Israel in the year 2006, simply has no place in this discussion.

Not a single person here has defended what happened on American soil to the Native Americans, or what happened to the Armenians or in Rwanda or Darfur--they have simply pointed out the differences between what happened in those places and what happened in Nazi Germany.

It seems to me that your ultimate position--that somehow Jews are receiving preferential treatment post-holocaust--to be ironic (and disgusting) considering your purported claim to care so much about all people.

[Ariana Celeste]

92. It happened to the Armenians, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

[Bluerthanblue]

101. I know about this, and it was one of

many other examples I would have brought up if I'd been more lucid.

I had the pleasure of meeting a wonderful Armenian woman who was the Grandmother of a friend. (actually the whole family was Armenian, not just the Gram) She, though, had gone through the hell- and survived to tell about it. She also had one of the best attitudes I've ever seen in an elderly immigrant- her laughter was hearty, and her tears agonizing. She had lost many relatives, in ways that no one should ever have to die- Hers was a family of very gifted rug makers, and that skill gave them a good start in America.
I'm not sure if she's still alive, (I stayed at her house some 15yrs ago)- I had never known about the Armenian Holocaust- What strikes me as really sad is that very few people HAVE heard of it- And it is probably denied by more people than the Nazi Holocaust, yet every bit as disturbing.

thanks for pointing that out.
blu

[Ariana Celeste]

103. It is widely denied,

and ignored. I imagine they are both denied fairly equally, but the Armenian genocide is definitely more ignored.

Most states officially recognize it as genocide, but we as a country do not. Guess who else doesn't? Israel- which confuses me. Here's a snippet from the wikipedia article I linked to:

"Although there has been much academic recognition of the Armenian Genocide, this has not always been followed by governments and media. Many governments, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Israel, Ukraine, and Georgia, do not officially use the word genocide to describe these events. Although there is no federal recognition of the Armenian Genocide, 39 of the 50 U.S. states recognize the events of 1915 to 1917 as genocide.

In recent years, parliaments of a number of countries where Armenian diaspora has a strong presence have officially recognized the event as genocide. Two recent examples are France and Switzerland. Turkish entry talks with the European Union were met with a number of calls to consider the event as genocide, though it never became a precondition.

Countries officially recognizing the Armenian genocide include Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, Lithuania, The Netherlands, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela. Although part of the United Kingdom, Wales also officially recognizes the Armenian Genocide. The Parliament of the State of New South Wales, Australia passed a resolution acknowledging and condeming the Armenian Genocide in 1997.<4>,<5>"


When I was in school, I never learned anything about the Armenian genocide (or "massacre"). We learned extensively about the Holocaust though. I don't argue that we shouldn't learn about the Holocaust- I do however wonder why nobody ever talks about the Armenian genocide, to the point that many believe that the Holocaust of Nazi Germany is an event that stands on it's own. The Armenians deserve recognition, too.

You know how I learned about the Armenian Genocide? One of my favorite bands- System of a Down. They are all of Armenian descent- and are pretty active politically in other ways, too.

[ieoeja]

62. It was the cold blooded methodology.

Stalin killed more Jews. But the Holocaust gets far more attention. Obviously in this particular comparison the difference in attention can not be due to ethnicity, race, religion or the world-wide-conspiracy-to-dominate-the-world-by-getting-themselves-killed-everywhere-they-go conspiracy by Zionists.

The difference is that Stalin didn't process them like so much livestock in slaughter house. When the Soviets were killing you, at least you felt like it meant more to them than just another day at the job. You'd like to think your death had some meaning for somebody.

[Karenina]

72. Industrialized murder.

This is the aspect of the Holocaust that must be comprehended. The Nazis set up FACTORIES to murder people. I understand your frustration when considering all of the events you have mentioned. It is one thing to commit atrocities under the "cover" of war, expansion, an "Act of G_d", policies u.s.w. aber quite another to SET UP FACTORIES for the sole purpose of exterminating people. I respectfully ask your consideration on this point.

[Lurking Dem]

76. Aside from others' astute comments

part of it was sheer percentage. 90% of Poland's Jews, for instance, were killed. 67% or world Jewry was killed. Try to imagine that for a minute. Family, friends, coworkers, the guy down the street whose dog you hated, everybody GONE *poof*.

There are still fewer Jews in the world than there were before the war.

[H2O Man]

79. That's a fair question.

I'll start by saying I did not disagree with your previous post. I see the Holocaust as part of human history, and do not separate it from the many other horrors that define man's inhumanity to man. I think that we find examples from the individual level to national/international. My point was that the Holocaust is remarkably well documented.

I do not think there is gain to be found in comparing the evils of things like the Euro-American policy towards Native Americans, with the system of slavety that damaged both the US and Africa, with the Great Starvation in Ireland, in a "competitive" way; I believe that is what you are saying, as well. Perhaps the idea was summed up by John Donne when he stated that, "No man is an island entire of itself. Every man is a piece of that continent -- a part of the main. ...Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

120. I think the systematic, scientific approach makes it uniquely horrific,

even if not uniquely bad.

There have been other genocides, and there have been mass killings on larger scales under Stalin and Mao (although those weren't genocidal, arguably), but almost invariably they've been marked by "savagery".

The holocaust is uniquely disturbing because it was relatively *dispassionate* - the Nazis decided to murder all the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies etc, and set about doing it in the most efficient ways possible. Herding people into gas chambers as a result of an intellectual decision is even more horrifying than starving them to death through not caring, or gunning them down through cruelty.

There's also the issue that the Nazis *were* the third-largest mass-murderers of civilians of all time; they're a *long* way ahead of number 4, and numbers 1 and 2 - Stalin and Mao - killed many of their victims more because they found it inconvenient to keep them alive rather than because they actively wanted them dead, and their killings were less systematic and less well-publicised in the west. So the holocaust wasn't *unique* in that sense, but it was one of only three ever, and the other two have several strikes against them. That's pretty close to unique.

And it makes a big difference that the Holocaust was perpetrated by and against Westerners - atrocities always feel realer when the people involved have more in commmon with oneself.

[Bluerthanblue]

122. Thank you for explaining your

personal perspectives and opinions of what sets the Nazi Holocaust apart among atrocieties.

While I don't share your personal view, I respect it- and you, and appreciate that you took the time to rationally voice why you embrace the positions you do.

My experiences in life have led me to conclude that although we may percieve ourselves to be very 'different' and 'unique'- we are actually more alike than many of us are comfortable with. - for good and ill.

Atrocities always feel real to me, regardless of the people involved.

Disassociation is a necessiary tool many people use to survive living in this world- but it also tends to rob us of the fullness that life can bring if we can allow it to.

And that is a poor trade off (imo)-

peace-
blu

[Bluerthanblue]

29. the results are the same- what word would you pick?

we may not be having 'conferences' on the rape of the Native Americans- the victims of Katrina, being homeless, without health insurance- etc ....

But what real difference does that make? Does it change the FACT that:

homosexuals were subjected to lobotomies, and murder because of their "deviant behaviour"- are still victimized, murdered and legally and socially discriminated against in this- the year 2006?????

or erase the reality of:

the murders, rapes, abuse, enslavement and lynchings of people in America because they were/are born with skin which is a different color than the 'ruling' 'class'?- the fact that the constitution of this country 'claims' equality but looks the other way, and uses 'it's always been this way' to justify bigotry and prejudice?

justify how we still live with:

the unbelievable denial of what is being done right now- this minute, this very second to the people of Iraq because of our actions, IN OUR NAME by our fellow citizens, with weapons paid for by each one of us, under some convoluted banner of 'not wanting to lose' or 'dishonor those who died' or 'to protect US from greater terrorism'???


My GOD!

The entire world can see the lies that we are using- hiding behind- to justify doing what we do-

The simple truth is, if IF people truly CARED then we would stop letting it happen.

I believe the opposite of love is not hate- it is apathy- a complete lack of caring. If someone hates me, then they have some interest/acknowledgement that I exist. When people quit caring, then the deaths, the abuses, the reality of suffering is of absolutely no importance.

I care.

too much, about too many issues/people/situations.

parsing words is something i suck at-

while we play with words, people suffer and die-

i hate this.

blu

:nuke:

[WinkyDink]

106. Because words do matter: I might not care about the Holocaust

(it's an example; I care, a lot), but I don't deny its reality, its existence.

Holocaust-deniers refuse to acknowledge its empirical reality.

This WAS the OP's topic, correct? And yes, the world would be a far better place if everyone cared. No Republicans, for one thing.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[johnnie]

40. "what we did to the Native Americans"

Who's this we? If you are comparing the two, then I take it that you also clump modern Germans in the same group as the Nazi Germans?

[Bluerthanblue]

64. have 'we'

returned to the Native Americans what was taken from them by our ancestors? Have we attempted to make amends for the broken treaties? The lies that were told, to benefit the 'white man'? Do we not live, despoil and desecrate their lands, and look down our noses at NA's who have the audacity to not want to have their ancestors and their history cartooned and commercialized by modern American society??-

We 'play' at Native American spirituality, yet where are the real initiatives to 'make things right' for those our ancestors so grievously wronged?

No, I do NOT class the people of Germany today in the same group as the people who joined up with Hitler during his reign- but I will not deny that there is a 'neo-nazi' presence still at work in this world- I also believe that people like the "prescott Bush cabal" profited off the suffering of the victims of the Nazi's and people who profit off the 'spoils' of our military actions RIGHT not- and against the Native Americans- the Iraqi citizens- the children and grandchildren and great grand children of those who suffered under slavery in this country- And those who defend their 'right' to be 'proud' of what they did- when have we apologized to those this country has so grievously wronged?

lip-service.....

never again, goes for all oppressed peoples- many of those who live scarred by the Holocaust share that truth- they don't get the attention of the media, but their voices are full of wisdom and courage- spoken as only those who understand can speak-


"I will fight no more forever" .Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce..."Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."....MLKjr

[johnnie]

71. My ancestors got here in the 1880s

I don't think they had anything to do with stealing land.

What have you done to make up for it? Are you packing your bags and moving out of America? Or are you another person with 2% Native American blood and thinks that you are oppressed?


This world is getting smaller and smaller, and the population is getting bigger and bigger. I would hate to see what it would be like if their was never any migration.

[Bluerthanblue]

81. no actually

i'm ashamed to say some of my ancestors actually were among the first to violate the Native Americans homeland.

I've not done enought to make up for any of the atrocities that have been committed by people which enable my children and I to live the life we do today- a life that falls well below the federal poverty guidlines- but that to my mind falls far above what most people in this world find themselves coping with- yet they don't demand that we cut them slack, or give them unlimited rights to ensure that they will never have to suffer from oppression - rights that include pre-emptive violence- and refusal to acknowledge that 'collerateral damage' is just a pretty phrase that means "I don't give a fuck about YOUR people- your people only matter when it is convienient to me"- which is a lie that fools only the foolish.

And sadly that falls on most of our plates.

Yes indeed the world is getting smaller and smaller- and the powerfull are getting more and more arrogant and devious- Justification of violence- intolerance- pre-meditated murder might fool some people- might even allow them to sleep at night - but I gotta say it doesn't work at all for me-

All I can do is to seek justice, and equality for ALL people- regardless if I like them- they look like me, or if it might inconvenience me to make 'room' for them.

I have no idea what genetic material might be living amongst the predominantly celtic ethnic dna that makes up my body- but I do know this- there is far more that unites me to all human beings than that which seperates me. I can try to do that with my mind- but the reality is, we are all humans- even those who bring us shame, sorrow, and suffering.

[johnnie]

86. Good response

Don't get me wrong, I do recognize the injustice in the world, but sometimes it is better to work on a better future than to dwell on the past. Of course. don't forget the past, but the energy used on trying to make something right that happened centuries ago could be well spent on trying to unite people instead.

I understand about the slaves, the Native Americans, the Irish, the poor, the Japanese, women, children and on and on. But as a "white" man, I didn't do *all* of that, but yet I hear about it constantly. I refuse to be a self-hating white man. I just won't do it. I would rather work on bringing people together than sectioning them off by what their ancestors did, what their gender did or what their skin color did.

[doublethink]

85. Substitute "what we did to the Native Americans'" with .....

"The United States of America" and I think you'll get the posters drift. What was done by Nazi Germany (the Holocaust) was done in the Germans peoples 'name' ..... in a sense that what "The United States of America" has caused in your's and my name, whats happening to the Iraqi people today, whether we approve of it or not. Neither of these events are something to be proud of, but they are part of both peoples respective history's. Once we accept that 'reality' (especially of the present) and come out of denial .... then the next step is to CARE enough to try and change things that are being done in your name to other innocent people with our tax dollars, so on and so forth. I agree with you that most modern Germans as a people had nothing to do with the Holocaust, obviously most were not even alive back then but maybe, just maybe if enough of them BACK THEN 'Cared' enough before ..... well lets just get more of our fellow Americans Caring today, and maybe we can change the present. All the best and PEACE.

Note: I don't speak for the poster you were answering, this is just how I interpreted both your arguments.


Ref: "They Thought They were Free" by Milton Mayer
"A Peoples History of the United States" by Howard Zinn.

[Bluerthanblue]

91. thank you- and you too Johnnie-

I believe we are in basic agreement- And Doublethink, you said what I was trying to say, far clearer and consisely than I can or could.

We need to Care- and act on our caring.
thanks for your patience and time-

blu

[doublethink]

96. And thank you for CARING ..... Bluerthanblue.

It's a good thing. How's that for concise? :hug: and Peace.

[Dastard Stepchild]

24. I know someone that feels this way.

He dislikes Jewish people, so I am pretty sure that is what is fueling his own personal fire. There is no use in attempting to make him to feel otherwise. He BELIEVES it.

[Quantess]

25. Possibly they (Holocaust deniers) are just taunting Jews. (no text)

[TheWraith]

26. Many reasons, not the least of which being that

A vast majority of the people involved in that sort of thing really are neo-Nazis and/or white supremacists. Second, you'll swiftly find that there are two classes of people in that camp, with a very fuzzy line between the,: the ones who genuinely believe what they say, and the ones who mainly say things like that to try and rally support and like minded people to their cause. One of the latter once openly admitted that the point of holocaust denial was to make Nazism an acceptable political system again.

You might want to read this. It's a copy of a long pamphlet distributed by a group called the Institute for Historical Review, one of the major denier groups, annotated and rebutted by a group called Nizkor which basically spends their time spanking the IHR and others like them. It gives a lot of insight into the kind of worldview that those people have to have.

http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

Seriously, though, I wouldn't worry too much about them. The very nature of their argument makes them a lunatic fringe cause, along with the chemtrail people and alien cattle mutilators. They've been trying to break into the mainstream for well over a decade, with zero success. In the middle east is a slightly different story, since the idea could gain a little bit of footing there, but the Israelis could do a lot to undercut it if they just stopped screwing everybody else.

[azurnoir]

28. I don't get how people could seriously believe this either.

The idea of Holocaust denial has been around for a long time my first brush with it was almost 30 years ago when a room mate of mine joined up with a christian group known as the One Way. She had a pamphlet they printed called "the 6 million that never happened". At the time a thought it to be ridiculous and that none in would believe that BS however she came to believe it. I would note that she and her brother "disappeared" with this group, they went to some para-military (it turned out) training camp in Ohio, their parents engaged a PI to find them, they never did as far as I know, but if these are the kind of people that believe this crap, they are the ones that become cultists don't want to say weak minded but there you have it.

[gravity]

35. Holocaust denial is just anti-semitism

I don't think these people truely believe that the holocaust never occurred, well maybe some. THey are just looking for more excuses to justify their hatred towards the jews and Israel.

[kiahzero]

38. They put facts behind ideology.

These are the same type of people who would still tell you today that Iraq had WMDs or that the WTC and Pentagon weren't really hit by planes. It's ideologically easier to deny the Holocaust, so they do.

[question everything]

39. It certainly diverts attention from say, Iran's nuclear intention

or lack of civil rights and personal freedom.

[RedStateShame]

45. Really? People here deny evolution!!!

It's convenient amnesia for many. If something is too troubling, stick your fingers in your ears, go "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and you don't have to worry about it. That's why any Jonestown Repoublican will tell you that the economy is fine, we're winning in Iraq, there is no racism left in America, the nation's homeless are just lazy, and everything exists because of a magical granfather in the sky snapping his fingers.

[ComerPerro]

50. there are all kinds of deniers out there

some think its an all out lie and conspiracy, some say the deaths were only around 100 to a few thousand, some say there were never any murders and that the victims were people who just died from overwork, malnourishment, or disease (like somehow that's any better)...

Whatever the variation, though, its pretty sick...

[Minnesota_Lib]

58. I once got into a short debate with a denier. A very short debate.....

The station I was working for was showing the mini-series War and Remembrance. Following a scene in which one of the main characters along hundreds of others died in a gas chamber, this putz felt the need to call and set us straight about the Holocaust. Unfortunately, at that time of night only the newsies were on staff so I got stuck fielding the call.

He was furious. He said we were showing propaganda and that it had been proven that the Holocaust was a hoax.

I merely responded that, one, the holocaust was the most well-documented case of genocide in history (the Germans kept meticulous records) and that the nation of Germany has taken responsibility for it, and, two, if one were to believe it to be a hoax, one would have to believe that millions of people from all sides—-the apparent victims, the German military and civilian population, the Allied military, the international Red Cross and all the judges, prosecutors and investigators for the Nuremberg trials among others—-would have all been somehow brought into a conspiracy so massive as to be unmanageable and in the intervening years not one of those millions, not a single one, has ever come forward to say “Hey, we were just kidding.”

By the sound of it the guy was hyperventilating. Finally he started shouting “But the goddamned Jews deserved it. They brought it on themselves, you f---ing Jew lover!”

That was pretty much all I ever needed to know about the deniers and their psychology.

[izzybeans]

69. That certainly is an illuminating story.

Thanks!

[AspenRose]

104. Pretty elaborate 'hoax'

With all those people having numbers tattooed on them and all. I know one of those people.

*shaking head*

[Squeech]

63. Power

There are people out there prone to believe in conspiracies, who see indications of evil influence in everything from the movement of interest rates to uncomfortable movies, and want someone to blame.

And then there are others who want to build power bases and sucker such people to support them, and who construct superficially plausible explanations for economic and cultural phenomena on the thinnest of evidence. Distinct minority groups are easy to blame, especially if they take some pains to keep themselves distinct. In our time it hasn't always been the Jews, in various places it's been Kosavars, Tutsis, Chinese small businessmen, Korean grocers, etc.

But the Jews are easy to pick on. (Full disclosure: I was brought up Jewish. Unsure whether I still identify as such. I have no plans to light a menorah this season, but I'll certainly eat latkes!)

Anyway, the Jews have customs that keep them distinct. They don't eat lobster or cheeseburgers. They don't go to church on Sunday, they have their own distinct Sabbath. (Which was the original Sabbath, before the emperor Constantine changed it.) They wear a hat indoors.

In many parts of the country, they look distinct. They have curly dark hair and big noses.

They're also easy to dislike for cultural reasons. They value social liberalism and civil rights and, obviously, religious freedom. They're extremely committed to education. They count their change.

There's a bunch of history too. Many of the great global banking empires in the world were founded by the Jews. (There were reasons for this. Good Christians were taught that usury, lending money at interest, was sinful, so the Jews, who in many countries were legally prevented from owning land, joining craft guilds, or practicing many productive trades, filled this market niche instead.) It's easy to blame economic hardship on banks (think of the "gnomes of Zurich" meme), and note that Hitler and his fellow travellers got a ton of mileage from pinning the Great Depression on a presumed conspiracy of Jewish bankers. In this country we more often invoke Hollywood as the predominant Jewish plot.

I think the idea of "chosen people" figures in too. My understanding of this is not that Jahweh considers the Jews to be smarter or more righteous or in any other way better than everybody else, but only that, because Abraham was the first human to recognize Jahweh as the one and only deity, Jahweh owes his descendants a favor or two. And we also have special obligations to Jahweh. The rest of the world has ten commandments to follow, and most of them are just things you're forbidden to do, like killing; the Jews have something like 613, many of which are things we're *required* to do-- and many of those are not at all fun, like cold baths.

All of that said, I think the Jews did themselves a disservice by harping on the six million. Had I designed the PR campaign, I'd have pointed out that the Nazi extermination machine killed eleven million people, including homosexuals, gypsies, trade unionists, Jehovah's Witnesses, communists, and several other easy to pick on minorities, and Jews just happened to be just over half of them.

[izzybeans]

65. For the same reasons some people see signs of the Apocalypse everywhere

or fear another Nazi Holocaust in the eyes of every arab.

All three seem like the paranoid fears of irrational people. In reality these folks just consume information that supports their ideology, protects their ego, and reinforces symbolic divisions between groups of people who otherwise live a common existence.

Get all these people in the same vacinity and they start throwing bombs, rocks, and IEDs at one another. Garbage in, garbage out.

[cali]

77. I don't think you can compare

the mentality of millennialism to Holocaust denial. Not even close. Nor do I think that some vague group of people who "fear another Nazi Holocaust in the eyes of every arab", (who are these people you're referrring to?) are the same as people who want to deliberately disseminate crap about genocide never happening.

[izzybeans]

82. There is no apt comparison in the terms you put them in the grand scheme of things, I agree.

I didn't mean to set up a moral equivalence. I apologize. I was answering the question posed by the OP.

Racism exists. This is all my comment suggests. Vague groups or otherwise it is a tragic state of affairs.

[Lurking Dem]

83. Is it eternal?

That is, do you think it is part of the human condition?

When I was young, in the heady days of Star Trek, I dreamed of a world free from racism and misogyny. I'm no longer sure it's possible.

[izzybeans]

87. So long as there are "Freedom Riders" I suppose there is hope.

There will always be people who separate themselves off from good faith attempts to form solidarity across groups. These folks stir up the pot (the white separatists in this country for instance) to a certain extent, but can and should be marginalized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Riders

Holocaust deniers can only believe the shit they do because they have separated themselves from the community of "freedom riders" that exist within the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The deniers do not engage with the knowledge created in the more integrated communities and they can not build the trust required to form alternative and more just beliefs as a consequence. The more people are brought into a common network of trust the fewer the separatists there can be. It is troubling that these groups get public platforms to advocate this crap. So perhaps my hope is minimal on this issue at the moment. But there are "freedom riders" that have created solidarity between Arab and Jewish residents of Israel and Palestine. So, sure I suppose as long as I find evidence of those groups then Star Trek dreams survive even if only minimally.

But I remain naive, I suppose.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

80. Deny until it goes away ...

Deny it constantly, consistently, never admit the possibility that it occurred. That seems to be the historic example set by Turkey about the Armenian genocide. Just deny it. And it will be forgotten.

It seems to have pretty much worked, so Iran can try it again. Deny it enough and at the very least, a majority of Iranians might believe it, maybe even a good percentage of the area's muslims.

It's not brown acid or a brain fart. It's a well-thought-out strategy.

[Rex]

95. Hate.

Hate can blind people from the truth. I've seen it happen firsthand.

[jonnyblitz]

98. believe it or not, for some it is an attempt to rehabilitate Nazism

by downplaying the holocaust or denying it ever even occurred. this is something I just read about in a bio of the American Nazi, George Lincoln Rockwell but i have read it elsewhere, too. Deborah Lipstadt is a good source on this topic, but I digress. Some neo-nazis and sympathizers believe the holocaust besmirches their otherwise wonderful cause and could be a reason many aren't flocking to join up with them. For some arab or muslim anti-Israel types, denial of the holocaust allows them to assume one of the main reasons for the creation of Israel is a hoax therefore it gives them justification to be against its existence. :crazy:

[Xithras]

99. It's an argument of numbers. They aren't denying the death camps.

I had the unfortunate luck to get into an argument with one of these prigs years ago. He didn't deny that the death camps existed, but he denied that they targeted Jews and claimed that the pre-WW2 Jewish population in Europe was inflated to fake the numbers. Instead of six million dead Jews, he claimed that no more than "a few hundred thousand" were killed, which made them no more or less victims than any other group persecuted by the Nazi's. When I pointed out that 3 million Polish Christians were exterminated, and 1 million Serbian Christians, he brushed that off as lies too. He simply couldn't understand how that many people could have been killed in that period of time.

Granted, the numbers ARE staggering. Between 1938 and 1945 11 million Europeans (Jews, Poles Serbs, Russians, Slav's, mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, communists, political dissidents, Eastern Christians, Sinti, Roma, unionists, Freemasons, and Catholic & Protestant clergy) were killed in the death camps. That averages to 1.5 million people a year, 4305 people a day, 179 people an hour, or 2.9 people every minute. It's a huge number, and that very hugeness is what makes it suspect to the deniers. When you break it down the way I did though, it becomes much easier to see how they pulled it off. 3 people a minute, spread over all of Europe, is trivial if you're evil enough.

[Jed Dilligan]

100. I'd say they're a loose coalition

There are hardcore, old-school, medievalist anti-Semites who deny the Holocaust in public, but in private they believe it happened and was a good thing.

There are people whose agenda is to clear Israel out of the Mideast, and they believe the Holocaust is the justification for Israel's existence. They, too, probably know it happened, but they are trying to provoke controversy to undermine international support for Israel.

The worst ones of all, in my opinion, are those who think Hitler was dandy except for these vicious rumors; they love the idea of authoritarian right-wing government, and it saddens them that all those shiny boots should be soiled with the hint of genocide. I remember learning about the Holocaust in school in the 80s. The boys in my class, all sons of Reagan Republicans, unanimously agreed that "Hitler was great except for what he did to the Jews." When you argue with this crowd, they will quickly drop the blanket denial of the Holocaust and fall back on, "Yeah, but Stalin wuz worse."

The final word on Holocaust denial is Art Spiegelman's cartoon in Harper's: a line of Jews being led to the crematorium, and one is slapping his thigh and saying to another: "The hilarious thing is none of this is actually happening!"

[treestar]

107. IMO it is different when it comes from Arabs, they were not involved

in WWII generally speaking, it may be that they are seeing things in such a different way that we cannot fathom where they are coming from.

Where the Arabs do not want Israel to exist, they could say so, that it should not exist, holocaust or none. Somehow the Arabs who deny it are actually agreeing that it should exist if there was a holocaust.

As to Americans/Euros who do it, they are probably just shoring up their anti-Semitism of that type that says "the Jews run everything in the world." If that is so, it must follow that the holocaust could hardly have happened to those who run the world, and must have been a put-on for the sympathy factor.

I have read that the Nazis actually killed 12 million people in the holocaust, too, so if that is so, they killed as many non-Jews and they did Jews. These second six million victims seem to go almost unremembered. Hitler didn't plan to stop there, either, and one would tend to think Arabs were not going to count as "Aryan" to the Nazis, should their alleged empire have spread that far.

[Lurking Dem]

108. Sure they were involved.

The Mufti of Jerusalem even met with Hitler. He recruited 20,000 Muslims to fight for the SS and they killed countless Jews in Hungary and Croatia. He also met and worked with Eichmann and Eichmann visited Palestine. The SS funded the 1936-39 revolt.

[cali]

111. One could argue that the Nazis were

responsible for many more deaths than 10 million. In any case, anyone who's studied the Holocaust knows that non-Jewish victims are not ignored or forgotten in the literature. Far from it, there's been extensive research, documentation and literature produced about the persecution of the disabled, the Roma, gays and others, but for many reasons the historical spotlight has shone more intensely on the Jewish Holocaust. Why? Hitler was determined to completely eradicate only one ethnic groug: The Jews. And he did a damned good job. Did you realize that over half of the world population of Jews was exterminated?

Of course the Nazi empire did spread into the Arab world. The germans and/or their proxies in the form of fascist Italy and Vichy France, occupied much of North Africa. Arabs were not singled out for persecution.

Current Arab anti-semitism is well documented, though one doesn't need any kind of academic documentation to view it. It exists through both private and state run or state sanctioned media. The Protocols of Zion are a best seller in many places throughout the mideast. I think there's ample evidence to suggest that the creation of Israel and the Occupation of the West Bank and Israel have fomented a great deal of this anti-semitism.

[geek tragedy]

109. Their goal is to rehabilitate the Nazi legacy and thereby

make Nazism and its values more acceptable in mainstream discourse.

They also hate Jews and are upset that Hitler didn't finish what he started.

[Lipton64]

113. Radical Islamists want ammunition to use against Israel and against Jews....

that's what this is all about.

[tinfoil tiaras]

114. I agree

Holocaust survivors still talk about their experiences. Do those sad Holocaust-denier freaks think that these people (the survivors) make up the stuff about how horrible the concentration camps were? :puke:

There's a whole museum dedicated to remembering this dark point in history. How anyone can think that the Holocaust was made up is way beyond my comprehension....