Are people who climb Mt. Everest crazy?

[Philosoraptor]

I've often pondered this, with skydivers and base jumpers as well, I know it is in the realm of sports, thrill seeking, dare devilry, or whatever, but I suspect that anyone who has an obsession to climb Mt. Everest putting there very lives on the line MIGHT be a bit crazy.

To die a horrible, miserable, painful death in a blizzard just to get a 20 minute view from the top is odd to me. So often I think, maybe "I'm" the crazy one. More than 130 have died attempting to scale Everest.

Are they heroic? Admirable? Newsworthy? Important? I am not asking why they climb, I know it is because it is there, but, don't you think they might be little crazy?

[wtmusic]

1. Just another flavor of craziness

I would never try it, but I admit the challenge is appealing.

[Roland99]

2. Maybe not the ones that at least use oxygen!

:)

[Wonk]

61. Actually, there's an argument to be made why climbing without gas can be better.

If you're climbing on gas and you miss your turnaround time and run out on your way down, or have a problem with the gear anytime, then you hit a wall with the sudden change. That's likely what happened to David Sharp, running out of gas on the way back down from the summit.

If you're climbing without O2 then you always know where you're at in terms of being able to handle where you're at, and whether you're acclimatized enough to be there, and there's no wall to hit from having the gas shut off.

Here's what Ed Viesturs, who has summited 13 of the 14 highest mountains on Earth (8000m +)without gas, including Everest, has to say on this subject.

http://www.edviesturs.com/abouted

“When I first attempt a Himalayan peak,” Viesturs explains, “I climb without bottled oxygen, even if it keeps me from reaching the summit. My personal goal is to see how I can perform, to experience the mountain as it is without reducing it to my level. For me, how I reach the top is more important than whether I do. “Once climbers are on oxygen,” Viesturs continues, “they become stronger. But it’s a bit of a crutch. Without it, I don’t have a mechanical apparatus that can fail on me and thereby endanger me. The oxygen system is awkward. Sunglasses won’t fit over the mask, so I have to wear goggles, which fog up. Also, I can’t seem to suck enough air fast enough through the valves of the mask—I have to rip it off to take a full breath. Most importantly, I’m aware of the tricks that altitude and hypoxia can play on you. While climbing, I test myself, asking myself whether I’m aware of the conditions, of my actions, and of what is around me. Exhaustion and hypoxia can cause one to lose it mentally, and I never allow myself to fall into this state. When I’m guiding, however, I always use oxygen. You’re there for the clients, and oxygen does enable you to function better, both physically and mentally.”

[Roland99]

62. I was actually going to mention Ed.

:)

[kestrel91316]

3. Climbers don't climb merely for the view from the top, as you put it.

They climb for the physical and intellectual challenge of GETTING THERE.

The folks who do big wall climbing or serious snow/ice climbing are usually adrenaline junkies of varying degrees. I am a mild case of it. I used to go climbing in the Sierras (I took it up to desensitize myself to a debilitating fear of heights), but other than a few roped-up/harnessed/helmeted snow climbs of minor caliber, I pretty much stuck to the less dangerous climbs.

[Philosoraptor]

4. I've climbed a few smaller mountains

And put my ass in some dangerous positions, but to go up Everest seems to be asking for it.

[SmokingJacket]

40. And also to TELL PEOPLE they've done it.

How many people would do it if they were somehow prohibited from letting anyone know about it?

A lot fewer, I bet.

[treestar]

79. Just doing it to impress others

means you worry too much what others think of you.

[Wonk]

63. Gotta admit, the view is incredible, though

http://7summits.com

Looking at Mt Makalu from the 3rd step on Everest, which is pretty near the summit.

[kestrel91316]

75. I hear Makalu is about as dangerous as K2. Makes Everest look like

a walk down the street.............

[northofdenali]

5. No crazier than the ones who climb Denali's North Face

in mid winter. Or drive a dogsled to the top (as Susan Butcher and Joe Reddington did).

It's more adventure than insanity, I think.

[seemunkee]

6. No

No crazier than people who climb El Cap or people who cave dive or any other high risk sport.

I think a big problem is that Everest has become very commercialized. Its the tallest and gets recognized. If someone said they wanted to climb K2 or Annapurna most people wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. Both of those mountains are technically more difficult.

Its not about the view, its about the achievement of the goal.

[seemunkee]

7. Kit DesLauriers First Woman to Ski from Everest Summit

http://www.thenorthface.com/na/news/news-20061023.html

Keep pushing the limit

[wtmusic]

8. For insight into "Everest Fever"

pick up "Into Thin Air", by Jon Krakauer. Terrific read.

[seemunkee]

10. And then read The Climb by Anatoli Boukreev

for another perspective

[leftofthedial]

9. just narcissists

[durrrty libby]

11. They just have too much free time. A problem I would adore.

[Ezlivin]

12. Seriously. Your target heart rate should never be reached except via aerobics

I think the world is a much more interesting place thanks to the so-called "Adrenalin junkies."

I will never climb any mountain, but I damn sure enjoy reading about the exploits of those who do. I will never take my wheelchair and do a 360° backflip, but I enjoy watching such exploits on YouTube.

Life needs a little spice.

[Philosoraptor]

13. I've done every one of those maneuvers, just not intentionally

[northzax]

14. Go read The Boys of Everest

you can get it at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Everest-Bonington-Climbings-Generation/dp/0786715790/sr=8-1/qid=1166117504/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8733900-4198410?ie=UTF8&s=books

[WI_DEM]

15. They climb it because "it's there"

[rock]

16. And as you perfectly well see, they would be insane

to climb it if it weren't there.

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Funny that you posted this. I've been watching 'Everest: Beyond the Limit' each

Tuesday night and pondering why a person would put themselves in a situation where 1 out of every 6 people would die. I find this series as well as numerous books on Everest very interesting. If I were younger and more physically fit, I might be tempted to climb mountains. The closest I've ever gotten is about 6000 feet up.

[Junkdrawer]

27. The controversy Discovery Channel would like to hide...

In a recent press release, close to one month after David Sharp's death, Russell Brice contradicts his expedition climbers' earlier reports to media. Meanwhile, more of the world's best climbers (latest American top climber Ed Viesturs, check below) have made statements about the feasibility to make rescues high up.

Russell Brice, and several of his supporters have also repeatedly reported on Brice's contributions in Everest rescues, but failed to mention when Russell's own guides and climbers have been helped high up - in one instance by three climbers who gave up their summit to save two Himex members lives.

...

The press release contradicts earlier statements from a Himex member who told ExWeb that shortly after midnight, Himex climbers discovered David Sharp next to the rock cave while it was still dark, and reported to Russell Brice that he was alive, shivering, not wearing gloves and showed signs of severe frostbite on his hands and face.

Brice further writes that when he did learn of David Sharp from "a climber" at 09.30 he did not know who he was, or even that somebody was in trouble.

This contradicts Mark Inglis statements to media that he radioed Russ who said about David, "You know, he's been there X number of hours, been there without oxygen, you know, he's effectively dead."


...

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=10074

[sinkingfeeling]

37. I don't think Discovery is trying to hide David Sharp's death, but I don't want

them to release the film of him to the public either. Here's an interesting discussion of high altitude rescues and ethics:


http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/story13643.html

<snip>The first point is that no matter how strong you are, there is no-one who can carry another person at 8500 metres. So it would have to be a stretcher job. To date that has never been managed at this altitude. Much of the North Ridge is not particularly steep, but the route traverses for a long way on outward sloping rock slabs. Imagine a frosty morning back in New Zealand, and trying to manoeuvre a stretcher patient along an iced up roof, pitched at 20-30degrees, that went on and on for kilometres, with a drop below of thousands of metres. Not an easy task. The chances of the stretcher party making it to safety without killing themselves would not be high. To even attempt such a rescue would have meant first getting the clients back to safety, then putting together a big team of guides and Sherpas, and then setting forth again to reach Sharp. He would have long been dead.

[Junkdrawer]

41. More on the David Sharp incident...

EverestNews.com has been informed from a member on the Russell Brice (Himex) expedition that David Sharp was seen talking and was alive and lucid enough to state to least one of those climbers, "My name is David Sharp and I am with Asian Trekking".

This occurred several hours after Sharp had been pronounced “effectively dead” and as the climbers who had passed Sharp on their way up to the summit again encountered him on their descent according to the member on the Russell Brice (Himex) expedition.

...

Forty Two people are reported to have walked by David Sharp on the 15th of May while David struggled for his life. People assume that most of these people walked by David twice, once on the way up and once on the way down the mountain. Only a few have spoken to the media about the final hours of David's life.

Sir Edmund Hillary have condemned those who walked by David. Eric Simonson, an expedition leader on Everest that runs Everest expeditions every year and a man with first hand knowledge in rescuing clients on Everest was appalled at the actions so many climbers. Eric's expedition in 2001 rescued 2 members of the Russell Brice expedition in 2001 from a much higher and much more difficult location (the Third Step) on the mountain “Climbers can be too selfish, “I don’t know how those people can sleep at night. It’s abhorrent.” Simonson was quoted.

....


http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/sharp06012006.htm

[Warpy]

18. Adrenalin junkies

love the rush that high risk activities give them. If they're poor, they drive too fast to amusement parks to ride the nastiest roller coasters they can find. If they're wealthy, they climb Everest.

As long as the high risk activity is channeled into something reasonably benign, it's no problem. If it's channeled into gang wars in my neighborhood, big problem.

It's just another normal variation of the human personality. I don't share it, either, although I did tend to get bored outside critical care units so maybe I'm just kidding myself.

Then again, I've never enjoyed roller coasters.

[InvisibleTouch]

19. I can't judge what's unacceptably risky for someone else.

Personally, I have no desire to climb a mountain. Not even the slightest inkling. Zero, zilch, nada. I hate the cold, and I have no great love of physical exertion. But I can't determine for someone else that it's crazy or too risky, or they "shouldn't," or what-have-you. That's their choice, and just because I can't imagine the benefit, doesn't mean I can condemn it. I've done things that others would consider crazy and unacceptably risky, but my life would be incomplete without them. Just as I have the right to take my version of risk, so mountain climbers have the right to take theirs. When you do anything dangerous, you (presumably) know the risks going in, and accept them. No one else has the right to determine that for you.

[DemoTex]

20. My friend M.'s husband, Beck Weathers, almost died on Everest.

It was chronicled in Jon Krakaeur's Into Thin Air. Beck's was an egomaniacal thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Beck struck me as a first class ass.

But I only know him from Krakaeur's book. What's he like in real life?

[devilgrrl]

31. Beck Weathers, the freeper with more money than he knows what to do with?

Frost bite was too good for that self-absorbed twit.

[sinkingfeeling]

39. Although I probably wouldn't agree with Beck Weathers' politics, I admire his

determination. That man was left for dead, what 3 times? Yet, he, by his own will power, survived. I would shake his hand, if he still had one left. Did he get to return to pathology?

[DemoTex]

53. Yes, he is a pathologist in Dallas.

I barely know Beck, but his wife is a long-time friend of mine.

[Flubadubya]

21. On one of their promos for this show, a guy says...

"At this altitude your mind just doesn't think right."

My first reaction to that was, "Apparently your mind doesn't work right at sea level, otherwise, you wouldn't be up there now". :rofl:

[valerief]

22. Crazy is my vote. nt

edited for typo

[mattfromnossa]

23. Climb it and you will receive a lifetime dose of humility and exhilaration.

[bpj1962]

24. Everest

Recently I spoke to a professional climber who climbed Mount Everest as part of the team that did the oxygen bottle clean up that was sponsored by National Geographic. I asked him if the climb was difficult and he said that is wasn't a hard climb. The problem he said is so many of the climbers are wealthy people who pay anywhere from $70,000.00 to $100,000.00 to ascend Everest and for many of them it is their first climb. He told me that the guides sell them on the fact that they have gotten over 50% of the group to the top. What they don't tell you is that they are usually talking about the guides and the sherpas because so few climbers make it on their first attempt. The people involved in "Into thin Air" were on an ego trip and it cost them dearly. Experienced climbers don't make the mistakes that beginners do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. I'd rather die on the summit of Everest...

than alone and forgotten in some old folks ward, hooked up to tubes and shitting myself.

[SoCalDem]

28. They are just thrill-seekers/adrenaline junkies.

There are some people who just need to do exciting/dangerous/adventurous things.

These are usually very creative/outgoing people and since they do those things, sometimes they get hurt/lost/killed..

There's an interesting documentary that runs from time to time on the Doc Channel (Dish) that explained it pretty well.

[drm604]

29. I can understand the appeal.

I'd never do it because I understand how bad the odds are, but I understand the appeal. It would be quite a thrill to stand on the peak of Everest. But it would only be a thrill if I had gotten there under my own muscle power. If, hypothetically, someone invented some sort of helicopter that could take me there I don't think I'd be interested. It's the achievement that would be so thrilling.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. No. They do it to breathe the air up there.

:)

[Tracer]

32. I've been watching "Everest", and ...

... I've also read "Into Thin Air" and it's my opinion that ALL climbing on Everest should be banned.

Too many miserable, frozen deaths. Too many bodies left on the slopes. Too much trash left forever on the mountain. Too many assholes paying too much money to attempt the climb.

[GumboYaYa]

33. Everest is a trophy climb.

It is for rich idiots who want to act like they have done something special. There are so many more challenging climbs at much lower levels, I can't understand why any experienced climber would ever trudge up Everest.

There was a time when I thought it would be cool to summit Everest. Then I read its mountaneering history and was totally turned off to the idea.

As for the sanity of climbing in general; if you have to ask it is not for you.

[Junkdrawer]

34. There's literally traffic jams going up and coming down...

And when you get stuck in one of those jams, your nose, toes and/or fingers freeze off. And all it is is clamping a hook to a rope and climbing a VERY well trodden path.

And last year, numerous climbers walked right by a dying man. (see my post above).

All in all, sick, sick, sick.

[Junkdrawer]

38. Traffic Jam photo from 1996...Eight climbers died that day...

http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-73668?articleTypeId=1

[Wonk]

43. During the roughly 3 week window in May, yes, there can be bad traffic jams.

Traffic jams can be avoided by climbing in offseason. Of course, the weather is much worse without the jet stream "just right", which is why so many of the teams choose to go during the same window in May, which is why traffic jams occur at the bottlenecks such as the Hillary Step where there's only one ladder for climbers going up AND down.

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=15202

It's the first Everest autumn summit since 2002 and the first autumn South side summit since 2000. The Berg Adventures stellar team of Sherpas and climbers Dave Hahn, Kit DesLauriers, Rob DesLauriers, Bryce Brown and Jimmy Chin just pulled off an Everest summit we haven't seen in 6 years!

more...




No freakin way will you ever find me on Mt Everest, but it's interesting to read about.

[Junkdrawer]

45. Why don't they just install an escalator and a restaurant at the summit...

The Restaurant at the Top of the World (apologies to Douglas Adams)...

[Wonk]

52. Some in the climbing community have argued for removing that ladder.

The argument is basically: removing the ladder would reduce the number of deaths on Everest, because it would eliminate the "tourist climbers" from even trying in the first place. Bottlenecks weren't an issue before the ladder was attached in 1975, because the number of expeditions was so much lower.


The counter-argument is basically: who should have the right to remove it, denying most other climbers from a reasonable chance of reaching their dream of summitting? If someone wants to pay their money and take their chances of getting stuck in a bottleneck, then that should be their right to do so. Those who argue for removing the ladder are elitist.


I think there's some merit to both points.

[Junkdrawer]

54. Limit the number of groups and hold a lottery....

You can even charge a fee for the lottery and use the money to clean up the mess of the last few decades.

[Wonk]

56. In many ways, it comes down to cold hard cash.

There's a lot of money poured into the local economy by climbing expeditions, both in permit fees paid to the government and in salaries paid to Sherpa guides. A Sirdar Sherpa can make as much in a month as an average Nepalese or Tibetan worker makes in a decade. Even non-skilled base camp support staff (like those who haul in water to be used for washing and showers) can make as much in a month as they'd make in a year otherwise. I don't see a lottery for climbing permits generating nearly as much revenue. For those reasons, it'd be hard to sell the idea of a lottery to the locals.

Then there are the professional guides, from outfits such as Adventure Consultants, Mountain Madness, or Alpine Ascents, whose income depends on leading expeditions. I'm sure they would object as a group to a lottery system as well, because then whether they worked or not in any given season would be dependant on random chance, and booking clients and organizing expeditions would be much more difficult if all they could promise a client was "You can come up Everest with us next time we win the lottery, whenever that may be".

[Junkdrawer]

58. OK, so we're back to the restaurant...

Imagine a giant moving staircase and glass tunnel, like they have at airports, only 50,000 feet long...hotels every 10,000 feet or so....

T-Shirts, Postcards, Bumper Stickers, Oxygen....pure money.

Hey, get my secretary on the phone...

[Wonk]

60. I think the kind of people who want to climb would still want to climb.

I'm pretty sure you're kidding about the restaurant, but I'll address that too. At high altitude, climbers often have difficulty eating anything at all and keeping it down. There are plenty of stories of climbers at camp 4 forcing themselves to eat half a cup of ramen noodles (or something similarly bland) in preparation for their summit bid, then throwing it right back up again once they start moving. Tea is quite popular though, as becoming dehydrated is another of the risks up there.

As to your escalator idea, I think gondolas would be slightly more practical, though still not economically viable unless the ticket price was astronomical.

[Junkdrawer]

64. Gondolas...I like it. And AirBus could build the pressurized restaurant...

Hell, their new double-decker sans wings would be perfect.

"Mt. Everest World"....Disney would love it....

OK, now you can take down the ladder and let the "real climbers" provide the entertainment.

[devilgrrl]

46. they walk by people who already died...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. Well, that's something else entirely.

Ascending past the dying is unconscionable. Not retrieving the dead is something else.

[Junkdrawer]

48. You can almost see how it happens...

Someone gets it into their head to climb Everest. They train for a year, spend maybe a cool $100,000 with dreams of the ultimate, noble adventure. Instead they find themselves in a smelly, crowded camp with 200+ other climbers waiting their turn. On their way up, they see someone who (they tell themselves) maybe skimped on training and/or equipment and, guess what? It's their "human" duty to give it all up and rescue the guy.

The whole enterprise should be banned. Or, as I said above, put in an escalator and a restaurant. One or the other. But this "I conquered Everest" form of Russian Roulette is just sick.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. Why ban it?

They're all volunteers. They all want to be there. They know the risks.

[Junkdrawer]

50. Sir Edmund Hillary wants at least a temporary ban to clean up the mess...

EVEREST SHOULD be closed to climbers to "give the mountain a rest for a few years", Sir Edmund Hillary, the first climbers to conquer the world's highest peak, said yesterday.

On the eve of the 50th anniversary of the first ascent of the mountain on 29 May 1953, by Sir Edmund and Sherpa Tenzing Norgay, his proposal triggered immediate controversy among climbers on both sides of the debate over the mountain's littered slopes.

Speaking after a procession through the Nepalese capital of Kathmandu to celebrate the forthcoming anniversary, Sir Edmund said he had suggested to the Nepalese government that it should stop giving permits to climbers so that uncollected rubbish from decades of expeditions could be cleared from its lower slopes.

The idea was backed by Junko Tabei, the Japanese climber who was the first woman to scale the peak, in 1975. She says she wants either a short ban on climbing, or a limit on numbers. "Everest has become too crowded. It needs a rest now. Only two or three teams should be allowed in a season to climb Everest."


....

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20030528/ai_n12695884

[question everything]

35. There has been a series on the Science channel, I think

and apparently there are so many now who climb the Everest, that they create a bottle neck there, waiting to be able to move while using their limited amount of oxygen.

Now, this is crazy.

[Odin2005]

36. It's a personality thing IMO.

http://www.typelogic.com/istp.html

[Cleita]

42. I personally would rather get my views in an aircraft flying over

the peaks. I don't think they are crazy so much as their priorities are far different from our mainstream ones. It's seems that many sport aficionados devote their whole being to putting their bodies against extreme challenges for essentially what is a game.

Most of us put our toys and games away when we grow up and must take up the responsibilities of life as adults.

[madokie]

44. hell if you ask me anyone who goes out in the cold if they don't have to is

but thats just me

[Dastard Stepchild]

51. Excitement is an under appreciated quality...

Mind you, I've only climbed a munro in Scotland (Ben Nevis) but it was really exhilarating to stand at the bottom and then slowly but surely work my way up it. I felt really powerful for several weeks after that.

[KT2000]

55. I don't know about crazy

but I find people who do such things to be boring narcissists. The climbing clique is hyper pretentious - in my opinion.

The ill-fated climb that Jon Krakauer wrote about was the most morally vapid collection of people this side of the Repub party. Definitely not heroes in my mind.

[Generator]

57. Yeah, probably but I find it fascinating

I read in Thin Air, say the I MAX show, am watching Everest now on the Discovery channel.

But damn it-right now we have 3 climbers lost on Mt. Hood here in Oregon. Lost now for days. Massive wind storm, snow storm and avalanches. WHO the fuck goes climbing a 11 thousand foot mountain in December? Idiots. That's what I think. But heh-I must respect their decision right? It was voluntary. Do they respect me drinking in excess or doing something else because it gets me high? NO they do not. They would call me an idiot. So I can call them idiots if they choose to die by climbing a mountain in DECEMBER! Who does that? WHY? What about Spring and Summer you know the nice seasons? Maybe they should try to climb Everest in December!!!!!!!

[northzax]

73. um, I've climbed Mt. Hood in December

it's not that big of a deal, a day hike.

[MOB]

59. Discovery Channel: I should have died

Great episode (the first in the series I think) was about three hikers who experienced a series of tragedies trying to peak Everest and yet managed to survive severe hypothermia, dehydration and two totally broken legs.

But these missing guys are on Mnt Hood

[leftyclimber]

65. Clinically, some of them are, but most of them are not ( REALLY long)

There are two "schools" of climber on Everest. You don't hear about the old-school guys much. They go in, climb an obscure, super-hard route, and get out. You hear about the new-school guys, who aren't climbers -- IMNSHO they're tourists with crampons on.

From a research paper I wrote about ethics on Everest, explaining old-versus-new-school ethics ... for those who are interested (I think I may have posted some of this before. n.b. I removed some citations in the interest of length.):

The Old School
Prior to the advent of large-scale, commercialized climbing like that of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, climbing was about finding an appropriate challenge for the climber’s skill level and meeting that challenge responsibly. Old-school climbers could be seen as seeking a flow experience, where they attempted to match the level of the challenges they sought to accurate risk perception and accurate perceptions of their own skill levels.

The skills expected of an old-school climber were extensive. “The mountaineer needed to be a weatherman, engineer, athlete, nutritionist, medical doctor, geologist, and handyman all rolled into one” (Elmes & Barry, 1999, p. 179). Climbers worked their way up a scale of difficulty relative to their skill sets in a manner in keeping with modern specialization theory, where “each level of specialization carries distinctive behaviors and orientations” (Bryan, 2000, p. 18).

Climbing was seen not only as a test of technique and skill, but as a test of character. Every climber on a team was expected to look out for the others, to work toward the goals of the expedition in whatever role the expedition leader deemed necessary, and to work safely toward the expedition goals. These internal cultural conventions were never codified as a set of rules, but were expected to be adhered to as they were passed down from climber to climber.

Early expeditionary climbers were isolated in a way that is difficult to fathom in an age of jet travel, helicopters, and satellite telephones. For example, the 1938 American K2 Expedition had to hike 330 miles to reach the base of the mountain, and the 1950 French Annapurna Expedition spent most of their allotted time trying to find the mountain they intended to climb because the region had not been mapped accurately. There was no chance of rescue should something go wrong, and climbers frequently abandoned attempts on peaks because survival was considered more important than reaching the summit.

Just as survival was more important than gaining the summit, so was style. The style of the climb was an important factor for judging the quality of an ascent. “Moral restraint and individual responsibility” (Chouinard & Frost, 1972) were key features of a quality ascent, as was repeating an ascent in the same style or better (i.e., more efficiently) as the first ascensionist. Even better was developing a new, more difficult route on a mountain that had previously been climbed.
The philosophy of the old school is perhaps best summed up by Whymper, the first ascensionist of the Matterhorn, at the close of Scrambles Amongst the Alps:

Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end. (Whymper, 1871, p. 380)

The New School
By the mid-1980’s, there was little, if anything, left in the world to explore in the manner of the Himalayan first ascensionists. Veteran mountaineers were pushing physical and technical limits and were climbing increasingly difficult routes. Climbers were moving away from siege style attempts and climbing big mountains alpine-style instead, frequently without the use of supplementary oxygen.
At the same time, however, neophyte and relative neophyte climbers were beginning to show up in greater numbers on the regular routes on those same peaks. These climbers had not been exposed to the mentoring system of the old school, and perceived reaching the summit, rather than a climb adhering to the old-school standard of “good style,” as the only quality ascent. Many lacked basic climbing skills; some had never even worn crampons before.

While Bischak and Boyce (2004) equated the greater number of 8,000-meter peaks climbed by guided clients with those clients’ greater experience as climbers, it is inaccurate to compare a climber with none of the skills necessary to attempt a peak on his own to a climber who has the skills to independently and safely ascend and descend a mountain, regardless of the number of 8,000-meter peaks the latter has or has not climbed. The main difference Bischak and Boyce could accurately point out between the two groups with this assertion is that one group of climbers has spent more time at higher altitudes than the other. The amount of time an individual has spent at high altitude is not the same as cumulative climbing experience or level of mountaineering skill.

Reductionism of this sort either displays ignorance or irresponsibility, perhaps both. It is, however, reflective of the attitude that many guided clients took toward their participation in and skill development (or lack thereof) for Everest expeditions. This new generation of high-altitude climbers relied increasingly on support from guiding services and Sherpas to get them up and down the mountain, although they often “demanded the same autonomy accorded skilled players without the responsibility to the team or each other” (Elmes & Barry, 1999, p. 179). Some clients sued guides who turned them away from the summit in the name of safety.

Previously, “the prestige achieved by the climber was inversely proportional to the amount of help he accepted and used on the climb” (Hardy, 2003, p. 80). Now the prestige was in having made the climb at all. Self-reliance and responsibility were replaced “with goal orientation and the illusion of society” (Krakoff, 2003, p. 431).

The new attitude being introduced to high-altitude mountaineering manifested itself as in-group recreation conflict. Highly skilled participants in other forms of outdoor recreation are more likely to experience conflict with low-skilled participants in that activity than vice-versa (Vaske, Dyar, & Timmons, 2004), and a similar reaction appears to have occurred in the mountaineering community. Prior to the development of commercially guided expeditions on major peaks, the likelihood of encountering an unskilled climber on the same route on an 8,000-meter peak (or another climbing team, for that matter) was slim to none. Now inexperienced climbers on guided expeditions often outnumbered the experienced, nonguided climbers. As this change in participant types began increasing, the veteran mountaineers began to leave Everest and pursue difficult ascents on other mountains in the Himalaya.

Part of this conflict can be tied to the evolving motivations of climbers as they continue to participate in the sport. Williams (1996) found a distinct difference between the motivations of individuals who had only been climbing a few years versus the motivations of climbers who had been participating in the sport for an extended period of time:

Climbers with limited experience looked for motivation from more extrinsic sources such as peer group approval, physical challenge, excitement and adventure, while the more experienced climbers moved toward intrinsic factors including enjoyment, personal satisfaction, mental stimulation and relaxation. (Williams, 1996, p. 121)

Additionally, Elmes & Barry (1999) suggested that the clients on guided expeditions were both less experienced and more “narcissistically crippled” (p. 179) than previous mountaineers on the same mountains.

Hardy (2003) predicted that the introduction of neophyte climbers into venues where they had not learned the necessary skills and had not been exposed to the dominant culture of the activity would ultimately dilute the ethos of climbing culture. Many old-school climbers complained that Everest was being bought and sold.

The experienced mountaineers who were not displaced by the arrival of the guided clients began to display similar attitudes toward climbing as those clients, becoming more goal-oriented and less inclined to assume the interpersonal responsibility inherent in the old-school climbing ethos. Reports began trickling out of climbers leaving members of other teams to die so that they did not have to abandon their own summit attempts. The climbers in distress were not in locations that would have proved dangerous to an individual attempting to mount a rescue, and in most cases, the climbers proceeded directly past their dying colleagues rather than offering help....

[Philosoraptor]

67. What about bungee jumpers and skydivers?

And certain nature show hosts, living and dead?

[leftyclimber]

68. Don't know.

I don't research them. ;)

[Junkdrawer]

69. That's how I see it too...My "Mt. Everest World" sub-thread above...

is my reaction to seeing the accomplishments of the old school climbers reduced to the unbelievably obscene spectacle that "Everest, Beyond the Limits" has become.

[Philosoraptor]

70. I've been watching that, & a lot of amateurs are screwing it up

[leftyclimber]

72. I hear ya.

The problem is that the Nepali government makes so much money off of their permitting system that they've consistently refused to limit ascents or vet climbers. It also makes it difficult for climbers who have the qualifications to be up there to raise the funds for the permit. Then comes sponsorships, bringing paying "guests" along to help fund your trip, and the continual decline into another commodified resource. Ugh.

And the irony to me is that Hillary thought no one would climb it again after the 1953 British expedition because, well, it had been done. What's the point?

-armchair mountaineer

[Wonk]

76. Nice analysis of how the climbing culture has changed over the years. nt

[BoneDaddy]

66. Adrenaline junkies

and arousal based personalities seek life threatening situations.

Pure rushaholics.

Crazy to some
Brave to others
Depends on where you sit.

[OnionPatch]

71. Yes.

I think they're crazy with overblown ego. The only reason anyone would go through all that pain and discomfort is so they could say they did it. Me thinks the ego is totally outgrown in these people. And I apologize if my opinion offends anyone, but you asked. :shrug:

[northzax]

74. I think it's a matter of the 121st Psalm for many people, myself

for those of you not running to your bibles..."I shall lift up mine eyes to the mountains, from whence cometh my salvation"

And we can talk about all the newbies we want (as leftyclimber did above) and there is something to be said for it, but then, the great generation, Bonington's Boys, (Ian Hough, Dhougal Haston, Peter Boardman and the like) was savaged by death as well, and they were hardly amateurs or dilletants. And the next generation has been just as unlucky (Anatoli Bourkeev, Scott Fischer, Rob Hall, and now it looks like Chris Boskoff, alas). There are very few old mountaineers, if you make a life out of climbing mountains, eventually you are likely to die there.

but then, how many old race car drivers, or test pilots, or open ocean sailors are there? when life becomes about pushing the envelope, eventually you will get unlucky. just the way it is.

[Wonk]

77. Christine Boskoff and Charlie Fowler are missing too? Oh my.

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?news=15388

American star climbers Charlie Fowler and Christine Boskoff are missing in China, Alpinist reports today. This is very unsettling news for the American climbing community. With 6, 8000ers summited, Christine is among the top female high altitude climbers in the world. She mantled the Himalayan commercial outfit Mountain Madness after founder Scott Fisher vanished on Everest.

Charlie Fowler is described by Alpinist as "one of America's most prolific pioneers, with countless expeditions and first ascents to his credit."

After months of climbing in central-western China, the two traveled to Genyen, in China's Western Sichuan Province, November 9 to do a 2 day hike to an un-named 6000-meter peak in Dechin. After the climb, they expected to return November 25 and catch a December 4 flight home. When the two failed to show up in US however, a search party was sent to Litang today to investigate the town for clues about the Americans, but has found no information regarding any stays in local hotels or other details yet.

more...

[treestar]

78. Crazy and seeking attention

You don't throw your life away, it's the only one you have, just for a thrill.

It's just stupid. There is no excuse for risking your life over such a thing.

Waiting until it can be made safe might make sense. But risking one's life for recreational purposes is inexcusable. One has no right to do that to one's spouse and children, just for a thrill. And no right to impose that tragedy on the rest of us.

[Crunchy Frog]

80. Yes. n/t

[Wonk]

81. kick nt

[Texasgal]

82. Wonk!

I have enjoyed reading your posts on everest climbers.

I have some interest in it too, of course I am not as well versed in it as you are.

Thank you for posting... very interesting!

[Wonk]

86. Thanks. There are a couple of other issues about Everest climbing I haven't

even touched on yet, such as occasional thefts from high camps, and some people selling inferior quality re-filled oxygen bottles. It's a risky sport to begin with, and it's criminal, though hard to prosecute, when those risks are increased by other humans trying to save a buck or make a quick buck while being indifferent to who else they're hurting.

Vitor Negrete, who was another solo climber this year, climbing on the same permit as David Sharp was with Asian Trekking, reported one of his high caches of equipment had been looted. He also perished on his way back down from the summit, just days after Sharp did, but got much less media attention than Sharp, perhaps because he was Brazilian.

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=2062

(snip)


On May 16, Vitor received bad news at arrival in C2, on his summit bid: David Sharp, a British member of the expedition outfitted by Asian Trekking and including the Brazilians died on the mountain. Malaysian climber Ravi, also outfitted by Asian Trekking, was suffering from frostbite in two fingers. In addition, someone has emptied a cache left by the Brazilians in C2, containing gear and food.

Lucky enough, Vitor and the Sherpa climbing with him were helped out by other climbers, who let them a place in a tent and food enough for the night.

Summit bid seriously jeopardized

“All these events have affected me deeply – I even considered calling the attempt off,” said Vitor. “However, Ravi told me to reach the summit for him. Tomorrow I’ll go to C3. The plan is to reach the place by noon, rest for some hours and then set off for the summit by 9:00 pm. At C3 we have left another cache with food and gear – I hope we can find that one intact. Otherwise the summit bid will be seriously jeopardized.”

The thefts

This was only the latest in a number of thefts reported by strong, independent climbers on the mountain. Only last week, Simone Moro reported having his cache stolen on Everest south side.

Last year, young Polish climber Marcin Miotk found several of his camps emptied in his lone climb of the mountain late in the season. Like the Brazilians, the unguided climber ascended without supplementary oxygen and his life was jeopardized by the thefts.

Marcin summited and survived against the odds, but made a call at ExplorersWeb: "I got my summit and I will probably not visit Everest North Side again. But I care for other climbers' lives. So I wonder what we can do together - to change this?"

more...




http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=1733

Charged with manslaughter on Everest, oxygen supplier Henry Todd and two other defendants were given unconditional bail in February and ordered to appear at the Central Criminal Court in London on 6 June.

In a recent New Zealand article, it was made clear that some commercial expeditions have in the past, and will continue this year to buy oxygen from Henry Todd. In fact, Todd was glorified as an environmentalist for refilling old POISK bottles. With that, ExplorersWeb set out to ask Henry Todd for the usual technical information and specs.

The questions

In the ExWeb series, "Oxygen on Everest - The highest death lab in the world" we described how oxygen problems on Everest sported a sudden, sharp spike in the late 90's. In 1999, expedition after expedition reported failing oxygen bottles bought from Henry Todd.

more...


The charges against Todd were later dropped due to lack of evidence.

[blitzen]

83. yes, if russian roulette is crazy n/t

[AtomicKitten]

84. Let's just say I don't get it.

Compared to the plight and ultimate demise of James Kim, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for people that purposely put themselves in harm's way.

[onecent]

85. I think I would be thrilled to have a passion as strong as some of

these individuals. My life seems pretty mundane....uncomplicated kind of....

I wish I had some of the passion that these young people have.

I didn't really have that passion at 25 or 35...because I didn't know I should have. Does that make sense.

I didn't know about goals...or dreams....I just pretty much went through life in la la land....not really thinking about the final outcome.

Now in the golden years, some of this seems a little more important to me.....

[Redneck Socialist]

87. No

I fully understand the appeal, though I'd be hard pressed to explain it.

[Wonk]

88. Kicking this thread back up to be near the two ongoing mtn climbing flamewars.

This thread is much friendlier as well as being more informative than either of those, imho.

edit: Might as well add links.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2943542&mesg_id=2943542
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2937661&mesg_id=2937661

[Withywindle]

89. Agreed, kick!

And I'm posting in it just to help myself keep track of it. :)

Thanks so much for your information especially - I've learned a lot. My SO and I are both watching the Discovery Channel series, mesmerized. It's not something either of us would do, but the passion those who do it have is amazing (and sometimes horrifying). But I know the feeling I get sometimes hiking in the Appalachians where I grew up and Everest looks like that times 1,000. I have a pretty vivid imagination, that helps!

I suppose I could get all high-horsey about people who voluntarily put themselves in harms way yada yada, but here I am sitting on my ass smoking cigarettes. Given the choice I WOULD rather die on Everest than in a hospital full of tubes, but I know which is more likely.

[Junkdrawer]

90. Last episode of "Everest: Beyond the Limit" is on now...

and if you want to see what leftyclimber is talking about in post #65, tune in...