Bush declared war on transplant patients last night.

[benburch]

Did you catch that line about banning all research on "human-animal hybrids" in the speech from our Peerless Leader last night?

Most people think he is talking about some sort of bizarre SciFi creature - half dog, half human.

Nope!

He is talking about creatures that have a few human genes added to them so that their tissue, blood, or glandular secretions (such as insulin or growth hormone) can be used in human beings without rejection problems.

This is called Xenotransplantation. These creatures are not half-human. They do not have human brains. They do not have human faces. They just have tissue that will not cause an antibody response in a human being. The amount of human genetic material in such creatures is quite small!

If you were dying of liver failure, wouldn't you jump at the chance to get a pig liver instead of waiting on a list for a human liver that might not be available in time?

By banning this research, Bush dooms poor Americans to death, while the rich will simply fly to another country where the technology is available. Damned sure HE would get the pig's liver if he was sick. (Of course, he is already a pig.)

So, when you talk to people today, ask them if they would rather die, or have a Xenotransplant.

[JuniperLea]

1. I wonder if he counts in vitro embryos in his plan

He talked about throwing them out. This could get ugly. It's an expensive procedure and I'm betting a few of his "base" are using the technology.

[benburch]

2. They already have religious nuts doing adoptions of frozen blastocysts.

They call them "Snowflake Babies"

[Virginian]

56. Weren't his twins once in vitro embryos?

I remember reading that on another board.

[benburch]

89. I know they were the result of some sort of fertility treatment.

Bush and Laura had actually adopted a baby, but gave it back after she got pregnant with the twins.

[Canuckistanian]

3. I remember the debate during the 1st heart transplant

People were making almost that same point. They said we were crossing the line into Frankenstein territory. They were wondering if we would start to create human monsters with parts from anywhere.

Louis Washkansky, the first recipient of the heart tranplant even said the same thing jokingly.

[bananas]

4. On the other hand...

eventually people will gradually have all their organs replaced with animal organs, then they will be an animal with a human brain.

(that's a joke - thanks for your post explaining what he was referring to).

[Beetwasher]

5. Every Year He Has Some Bizarre Throw Away Subject

Like Sex Slavery or Steroids in Baseball. This year it was human-animal hybrids. It's really fucking bizarre. I think these are his little pet issues of the moment and every year he probably insists on adding something to the speech on some subject or other that has transfixed his pea brain momentarily.

[papau]

6. As a liberal Dem I also am against Werewolves - BOMB THE ISLAND OF DR

Moreau!!!! :-)

Meanwhile the new diabetes treatment involves putting annimal DNA into humans, - so do we kill folks with diabetes that recieve this treatment - letting only the insulin shot/spray users live? :-(

Who knew the solution to the oil problem was a prairie grass called switch grass from Texas - pity his encouragement of this reasearch will have to work with his cutting back on such research funds.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

7. Great analysis, Ben

Both Mike Malloy and I asked the same question: "What is this, 'The Island of Dr. Moreau?'"

But your look at this makes perfect sense. Dear Leader never says anything that doesn't have negative consequences for the sick and the dying, and this is another case of that.

Meanwhile, one cannot help but compare and contrast this matter with the ongoing out-of-control world-class nightmare of the frankencrops connstantly being introuduced by Monsanto and other agri-giants. Those hybrid species pose a real threat to the world food supply. But they're big Repig donors, so of course "never is heard a discoursaging word."

It's those little throw-away lines in speeches like these that really "set the tone."

Dear Leader talks about increasing science education, but he favors "intelligent design." He talks about cutting the deficit in half by 2009, but he created that deficit. He talks about improving healthcare, but promulgates policies that make us weaker and sicker.

Thanks for catching this one, Ben!

[Blank_stare]

8. I agree on the stance but not for the same reason. Animal transplanet wron

Wait i am not a fan of bush and his reasoning is wrong but his stance is right. What gives you authority to birth a living being to one day kill it and use it solely for its organs. How would you feel if some More intelligent alien race came enslaved humanity and began harvesting our organs because we are similiar. Its the same thing animals arnt your organs slaves.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

11. I somehow doubt you'd say that

if such technology could save your loved one.

Of course, there are people out there who will let loved ones die for religious/philosophical dogma's sake. The Jehovah's Witnesses, with their "dishonor the blood" doctrine, come to mind. Numerous children have died because their parents wouldn't allow a doctor to "dishonor the blood" and give the child a transfusion.

B-T-W: Welcome to DU!

[Blank_stare]

15. I view it no diffrent then saying wouldm you kill someone else

If givent he opition between killing another person and getting their organs to save a family mememeber, would you? Thats the same ethical question to me and i would ahve to think about it. However raising humans as organ slaves si a science fiction horror, yet aniamls who feel pain, fear, and value their lives as much as humans are cast to the wind.

[benburch]

12. I eat animals.

I cannot see the difference between eating them and transplanting them, except that one only keeps me alive for a few days, the other can save my life for years.

[Blank_stare]

13. could you?

Would you support raising dogs for their organs? Who gave you the moral authority to sacrifice a animal life to save a human. How is the senitenel living animal that can feel pain considered lessworth then a human. More importantly could you personaly kill a dog and tear out its warm beating heart as it whines?

[Beetwasher]

14. Yeah, Right, Whatever

I suppose you don't eat meat or wear leather? Who gave you the right? :eyes:

[Blank_stare]

17. I dont

I dont do either. And this suggestion is a slap in the face of every animal rights activist anywhere.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

25. LOL!

I need a good laugh every now and then. Thank you SO MUCH.

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. Tough guy

You're my hero!

:eyes:

I suppose one could have this argument without the ridiculous juvenile posturing, but then it wouldn't be as...I dunno...childish and stupid?

[benburch]

79. Or nearly as much fun!

:evilgrin:

[Beetwasher]

19. Uh Huh, Sure

No animal products whatsoever, huh? Puhleeze.

A slap in the face of animal rights activists everywhere? Ha! Guess what Chester, stopping this research is a slap in the face to deathly sick people everywhere. I'll side w/ the people on this one.

[benburch]

16. Absolutely.

As long as those dogs were treated humanely while alive, and were sacrificed painlessly, I would have no problems whatsoever.

Nobody is talking about ripping the beating heart out of an aware dog! Last thing you want is stress hormones in an organ you want to transplant, so you have to sedate the animal such that it is not feeling pain, and then stop the heart and begin the harvest procedure.

And I speak as a dog owner who, over the years, has had more than a dozen dogs I loved dearly.

[Blank_stare]

20. Double standard

Using that moral justifaction the rich could use the poor as organ slaves so long as they are killed humanely. You are against that to right? Or maybe the retarded as organ slaves i mean alot of them are as smart as the average dog ( no offence it is a fact) Why not harvest their organs. You dont have a moral leg to stand on, you just turn your head and pretend its okay.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blank_stare]

?

Why is one mroe highly valued then the other. Also why dont we harvest the rich organs. its all the same, WE ARE ALL ANIMALS just slightly smarter. IF the smart should use the weak why arnt we harvesting retarded humans.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

38. Not the brain, though.

http://www.ourpla.net.nyud.net:8090/john/Graphics/smeyegor.jpg

Its Abby Normal!

[Beetwasher]

43. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blank_stare]

26. okat then my moralist isnt yours

So i should be able to harvest organs from humans and you couldnt say or debate it about it. Afterall it is my moralitly?
And will these rethug attack tactics stop i thought you were progressives.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benburch]

30. This sounds like somebody who just came in to make trouble.

Nobody is this loony.

[Beetwasher]

34. Indeed

So funny!

[Bridget Burke]

40. An extremely vegan diet....

Might not provide sufficient nutrients to the brain.

[Blank_stare]

42. Ever heard of boca?

How bout Nuts?
All replace the protiens found in animals and all are cruelty free.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Yes, but if you don't balance your diet carefully...

You might stop making sense.

[Blank_stare]

39. Excuse me Witht eh personal attacks

I see when you cant counter someone's ethical moral points you call them a idiot. I used a line of reasoning to support my arguement. So far people have just said slaughter animals is common sense and called me a idiot.

[Beetwasher]

46. Moral Points? What Moral Points?

Animals are not human. Morality is relative and animals don't even have morals. They slaugher eachother all the time. Will you force them to stop? Are you also trying to force everyone to stop eating meat?

Watch where you step! You might kill an insect! They deserve life too! Don't wash your hands! You're killing thousand of tiny organisms!!! MURDERER!!!

Seriously, calling you an idiot is not a personal attack, it's an objective truth.

[Blank_stare]

67. You claim we are above animals

Yet you use their lack of morals as a reason we should lack morals and slaughter them.
And germs do not feel pain and dont even value their life.

[Beetwasher]

71. Heh? I Said No Such Thing

Learn how to read.

I didn't claim we're above animals.

How do you know animals value their life? Now it's valuing their life that matters?

Pathetic. Seriously, live by your own moral code, but don't force it on others. You sound like a Republican. THEY want to force their version of morality on others, just like you do.

[FlaGranny]

94. How do YOU know

that germs do not feel pain? If they didn't value their lives, would they try to live? I hear that plants even feel pain. There's even a plant that folds up it's leaves to protect itself if you touch it. Just because a living being doesn't have a brain, that doesn't mean they can't feel pain. Plants even grow better if you talk to them or play them music - and you EAT them?

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

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[Sydnie]

21. I couldn't, but Frist could

He seems to have no problems doing it to a cat. Can't imagine he would draw the line at a dog or any other animal for that matter. Just because I wouldn't want to do it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be explored for those that might benefit from it.

It would make more sense to use a pig as an example rather than a dog though. It has already been shown that pigs could be compatable and afterwards, they could be used in the food chain, which they are already anyway.

Again, I wouldn't necessarily want to do it, but if I had a sick loved one, or even found myself in that situation, I would have to revisit the issue.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Blank_stare]

28. thankyou

In my mind the suffering of animals and humans are equal and one does not that prioty over the other. And if i had kill another human/animal for my family memeber to live ui would ahve to think about it. I However do not believe in double standards. And thanks for the welcome ^_^

[Sydnie]

35. I think you missed my point

I am saying that *I* couldn't do it. I love my animals, but I also eat animals. I am not for stopping this type of research at all. I just suggest that your model is wrong. Dogs are not as compatable as pigs. That has been proven already. We already have pigs in our food chain. If we are going to slaughter an animal to eat it, why not find a way to have it's slaughter save a life beyond the food chain?

I can never see this happening with a dog or a cat.

However, they are cloning ears and such on the backs of living mice. How do you feel about that type of research?

[Blank_stare]

37. Depends

Do the animal die/suffr in the process. Then i am against it, if it realitively painless and the mouse lives then i am for it.

[Blank_stare]

44. Pigs are smarter then dogs

Pigs feel pain like dogs, pigs feel fear like dogs And pigs value their life like dogs. Why is it ethical to do this with pigs but not dogs?

[benburch]

Ethical with dogs too.

But dogs are not as suitable for transplantation; Organs are the wrong size, and the physiology is much different. Aspirin kills dogs, and would likely kill a dog organ. Humans and pigs are very similar inside.

[Blank_stare]

52. I think most americans would disagree with you on that

I think more then 50% would turn down organs harvested from Rovers cold dead corpse. But thats just subjective morality to i'll take my victories where i can get them.

[Sydnie]

68. Not if it wasn't THEIR Rover

and besides, as Ben said and as I said, pigs are more compatible. That's why the only pig that gets a name is the one that is shown at the country fair. All the others are just pigs to the famer.

[benburch]

92. We form anthropomorphic attachments with our domestic animals.

I volunteer at a low-kill shelter where I help socialize feral cats, and the differences between a cat that has lived its whole life with humans and one that has been 100% wild are striking.

We become surrogate mothers to our kittens, and they remain dependent upon us for their whole lives and it changes their behaviors significantly. We literally infantilize them such that they never develop a normal adult cat personality.

The same is true, to a lesser extent, of dogs. With a dog there is some of the infantilization going on, but also we become the pack leader. This is how you can socialize a wild dog; Feed it, set boundaries, be consistent, and it begins to regard you as the pack leader and will accept you.

I've had all sorts of animals in my life, and love them dearly; goats, pigs, wild birds I rescued, dogs, cats, fish, turtles, terrapins, snakes, sea monkeys. But if killing any one of the would save my child's life, I would do it in a heartbeat.

I'd probably cry, but I'd do it nonetheless.

[Sydnie]

95. I am living that very example now

I have a cat that was abandoned by it's mother. I bottle fed it, taught it's bowels to work, treated it just as if it were my own baby. It now thinks of me as it's mother and will seek me out for it's needs even if someone else is there and available to meet that need. Example - she has wrecked the screen in the window next to my computer and uses that as it's personal door bell. I can request that someone else open the door to let her in, but she will usually not budge until she sees me make eye contact with her and leave the room myself. I consider my "pets" to be part of the family and treat them with that same respect.

I couldn't do that to a pet. I could support it if it were an animal that is already being slaughtered for food. In fact, it makes sense to do that with animals that we eat. If they are to give their life, we should make use of every part of that animal.

[Orangepeel]

31. well, we kill it solely for its flesh and skin

maybe you think that's wrong, too. If so, fine for you.

But, most of American society doesn't, so why is this wrong?

[Blank_stare]

47. Most americans supported slavery once

Does that make it right? Should they ahve just ignored it and pretend its okay? I have my right to proclaim animal rights and convince as many people as i can that slaughterign animals for any reason besides self defence is wrong.

[Orangepeel]

74. I'm saying you are arguing a point three steps from reality

Society says that it is okay to raise and kill animals soley for human pleasure. It is your right to think that's immoral and you are welcome to say so.

But to argue that it is wrong to raise and kill animals to save human lives but that it is okay to raise and kill animals because they make my tastebuds tingle? Insane!

I realize of course that you are saying that you think both are wrong. But, nobody else is. You are arguing that "B" (using animal organs to save lives) is wrong, when the rest of the world still thinks that "A" (killing animals to make dinner) is perfectly fine.

[Bridget Burke]

36. If you're a vegetarian, I can understand.

If not, I don't.

[Blank_stare]

41. I am

I dont support, eating meat, fur or animal testing.

[benburch]

45. I hope you never become diabetic.

No beef insulin for you!

And no human insulin made by transgenic microbes either; They are ANIMALS. Or does size matter to you?

[Blank_stare]

49. I would rather die for my beliefs

Then live knowing i betrayed myself my ethcial truths.

[Beetwasher]

51. You Are Responsible For Murdering Literally THOUSANDS Of Organisms

Everytime you wash your hands. MURDERER!!!! :eyes:

I suggest you kill yourself so you don't betray your ethical truths.

[Blank_stare]

54. Germs dont feel pain

German arnt thinking being who feel pain, suffering, fear and value their lives. So please dont you that ignorant excuse.

[Beetwasher]

55. Heh, How Do YOU Know? Are You A Germ?

So it's ok to kill if there's no pain? Well, now there's some wiggle room, huh? Some ethical truths you've got there, Chester.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

63. LOL! Oh, So It's Not So Absolute, Huh?

Now feeling pain is necessary?

[Blank_stare]

70. Its called be a sentinel being

Or are you not even aware of the mildest defition of what being a living being means. Of course you still seem able to "try" and debate it. My advice do your h.w take a class in ethics then come back.

[Beetwasher]

73. LOL! A Sentinel Being?

Is that a being that keeps watch on something? The "mildest defition"? WTF is that? A "defition" that's not spicy?

A living being? Guess what, Chester. Single celled organisms ARE alive. Duh.

My advise to you? Stop looking like an idiot.

[Blank_stare]

78. miss spelling of sentient

My bad, and it means being aware of your surronding and is the base word of sentinel. I have been playing to much war craft 3... damn night elves. Anywho, Yes my definition of life is beign of war of your surronding and comprehending them.

[Beetwasher]

81. LOL! YOUR Definition of Life?

Your definiton of life is irrelevant. Trees are alive. Insects are alive. Amoeba's are alive. You don't get to decide what's alive, or what's sentient for that matter.

Your morality is inconsistent and you define things to fit your personal whims.

Again, are you going to try to stop people from eating meat and wearing leather? Are you going to try to stop animals from killing eachother? If not, you're a hypocrite.

If you think animals deserve the same rights as humans, then they should be held to the same standards. I suggest you go out to the veldt and get the lions to lay down w/ the antelopes. Good luck!

[benburch]

82. Daphnia are not germs...

But any water treatment system kills them by the billions.

[bmbmd]

53. I used to treat infections with antibiotics-

but never again. Those microbes are equivalent to humans. Stop being prejudiced against God's creatures that only have one cell.

[Blank_stare]

57. Again they dont feel pain

They arnt even awre of anythign and follow veyr basic patterns. Dont even have brains to or nerves to know pain. Animals do.

[bmbmd]

87. But they have souls.

And therein lies the crux of the biscuit.

[Bridget Burke]

60. We've got other vegetarians here....

But none of them joined DU just in time to support George Bush.

[Blank_stare]

66. I am nto defending bush

I am defending animals. Bush doesnt give a rat's ass about animal rigths and even has been labelign animal rights groups as terrorist. I have been a memeber for a long time and only posted when i witnessed someone suggesting we should be harvestign animal's organs.
I am not a republican and you sir are attempting to lead a witch hunt.

[Bridget Burke]

69. I am not a "sir" & I don't hunt witches.

I've also pointed out that using the word "eco-terrorism" is propaganda.

[Blank_stare]

72. Fine madem

I assure you i am a progressive, Am a very big supporter of animal right and it motivated me to becoem a active memeber of this board. However, i dont like people implieing i joined this board to defend george bush. For the simply reason it is not the truth.

[Sydnie]

75. In all fairness, this is not a new member

say as new as last night. July of 2005 is not that recent.

Carry on the debate now, but don't let that be a factor in it, ok? Please?

[Blank_stare]

80. Sadly i cant

I have to go ;_; Work calls.

[benburch]

90. And you were losing the argument, anyway. nt

[Beetwasher]

9. We MUST Save The WORD FROM THIS!!!!

[underpants]

27. OMG!!! Yahoo news has a photo from just last week!!!!

Oh WHEW!! never mind

A man with a gorilla mask raises his arms after running into the Chesapeake Bay during the Polar Bear Plunge Saturday, Jan. 28, 2006 at Sandy Point State Park in Annapolis, Md. For a minimum of $50 in pledges, participants take a dip in the Chesapeake Bay to benefit the athletes who train and compete throughout the year in Special Olympics Maryland. (AP Photo/Matthew S. Gunby)

[Beetwasher]

32. "King O' The World, Ma!"

n/t

[rucky]

10. Vote this up!

It's not as much fun to talk about as Dr. Moreau creatures, but it's pretty darn important.

[rucky]

22. kick

[Kansas Wyatt]

50. What about war on diabetics?

I submit: Human Insulin (recombinant DNA origin)

Does he mean human insulin is an evil that must be eradicated?

[benburch]

83. That is exactly what he means.

And pig valves for heart repair.

And pig skin for burn patients.

[WinkyDink]

58. He figures he should be the last one. MonkeyBoy!

[Blank_stare]

61. He wants to be the last president also

^_^

[woo me with science]

62. excellent analysis. thank you for this. nt

[benburch]

85. You are most welcome! nt

[livinginphotographs]

64. Well, I'll remember never to donate a dime to the White Rose Society

Since the guy who's constantly shilling for it is such an ass when it comes to animal rights.

[Rob H.]

76. Ditto nt

[benburch]

84. If I changed my opinions to get your donation...

...what sort of hypocrite would I be?

Keep your money. I'll do fine without you.

[livinginphotographs]

86. It's not about changing opinions.

It's about not acting like a prick when someone disagrees with you.

[benburch]

88. Yep, I'm an obnoxious prick.

Ask anybody. :)

[FlaGranny]

91. Pigs' heart valves

have been used for human transplant for many years.

[benburch]

93. Exactly!

And Bush wants that ended.

[Moderator]

96. Locking...

This conversation has run its course.