High IQ link to being vegetarian (BBC) {Healthier too!}

[eppur_se_muova]

Intelligent children are more likely to become vegetarians later in life, a study says.

A Southampton University team found those who were vegetarian by 30 had recorded five IQ points more on average at the age of 10.

Researchers said it could explain why people with higher IQ were healthier as a vegetarian diet was linked to lower heart disease and obesity rates.
***
Twenty years after the IQ tests were carried out in 1970, 366 of the participants said they were vegetarian - although more than 100 reported eating either fish or chicken.

Men who were vegetarian had an IQ score of 106, compared with 101 for non-vegetarians; while female vegetarians averaged 104, compared with 99 for non-vegetarians.
***
more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm

[Matariki]

1. either way - aren't all those scores kind of low?

[Tunkamerica]

2. average is 90-100

so no. just average.

[Matariki]

3. oh. i thought average was like 110-120. my mistake.

[SmokingJacket]

4. Actually 100 is average, by definition.

Though apparently it's creeping up...

[lvx35]

17. when a sample set is tested, the average score is always 100.

for a given test....So you can only have an average that's higher or lower if its for a subset of the population...So a class can have a mean score of 106 only in relation to a mean score of 100 in the town, state or country.

edit: for clarity, a score of 100 is always defined as the mean of the test population, and all other scores are relative to the test population.

[Beaverhausen]

5. excellent info

thanks! :hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. lvx must be a vegetarian.

That was a pdc. Personality defining comment.

[longship]

6. How can this be meaningful?

Especially since nobody has ever been able to state clearly exactly what IQ means.

All told, this study is undoubtedly like all other IQ studies, a bunch of bollocks.

[KurtNYC]

22. Bullocks indeed

They only correlate two things. They don't show cause and effect. In fact it says they had a high IQ first so they can't claim that being vegetarian caused the higher IQ.

I would bet big money that vegetarianism also correlates with a higher than average income and a hig income correlates with a higher IQ. But nothing in that chain is cause and effect -- it is just the outcome of the opportunities that money brings.

[Rosemary2205]

7. These kinds of studies always make me laugh.

Especially considering how many versions of vegetarian there are on the planet and how IQ scores don't translate into overall intelligence but rather the ability to take a test in a particular cultural setting.

[Zan_of_Texas]

8. Dup

[Zan_of_Texas]

9. Agreed, Rosemary.

To me, "vegetarian" means someone who eats no meat, no chicken, no fish.

They should have categorized the diets in SOME meaningful way --

omnivore

no red meat

no red meat, no fowl

no red meat, no fowl, no fish

no red meat, no fowl, no fish, no dairy

Maybe that's too many categories, but I second the last post.

[Beaverhausen]

15. It's pretty simple really

vegetarians eat no meat/fowl/fish but do eat dairy and eggs.

Vegans eat no animal products whatsoever - including things like honey.


So you can't really call yourself a vegetarian if you eat fish but no meat. That just means you eat no meat.

[smirkymonkey]

42. Apparently, the people in the study weren't all strict vegetarians.

From the BBC...

"There was no difference in IQ score between strict vegetarians and those who said they were vegetarian but who reported eating fish or chicken."

As with most "studies" it sounds to me like there is an agenda being pushed...

"Liz O'Neill, of the Vegetarian Society, said: "We've always known that vegetarianism is an intelligent, compassionate choice benefiting animals, people and the environment.

"Now we've got the scientific evidence to prove it. Maybe that explains why many meat-reducers are keen to call themselves vegetarians when even they must know that vegetarians don't eat chicken, turkey or fish."

But Dr Frankie Phillips, of the British Dietetic Association, said: "It is like the chicken and the egg. Do people become vegetarian because they have a very high IQ or is it just that they tend to be more aware of health issues?"

[gollygee]

10. Thinking about your diet at all suggests a higher IQ

so I guess I'd assume that any group of people that has seriously considered their diet is smarter than the general population.

[noahmijo]

18. I think that's the best answer to this whole topic right there

From a semi-Vegan but total Vegetarian whose score was just shy of making it into MENSA :)

[TahitiNut]

11. There wouldn't be any correlation with affluence, would there?

Let's see ... higher scores on IQ tests ... more education ... higher paying jobs ... ability to afford better medical care ... ability to afford "fashionable" dietary habits. Some people in this world eat what they can get. I can just imagine that homeless family turning down a Big Mac. "Sorry, my children and I would rather starve for another day."

[gollygee]

12. That's a good point too.

was it Mark Twain who said, "there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[TahitiNut]

13. It's probably just a coincidence that this comes out after the E Coli recalls.

Sure it is. Of course. Uh-huh. Gotta assure those Taco Bell customers it's "healthier."

(Pardon me while I go eat a can of spinach.)

I wonder if anyone notices that the women have lower IQ's than the men. :eyes:

[gollygee]

14. I saw that too

whatever. . .

[smirkymonkey]

45. I noticed - yet they also say that more women are vegetarians.

How does that work?

Aren't these the same researchers that just completed a study "proving" that men are more intelligent than women? :eyes:

What's up with the UK these days anyway? Between these idiotic studies that foster animosity between groups and their increasing push toward "police state-ism" I am begining to think they are becoming even more dystopian the we are.

A lot of shit is being stirred up that is distracting people from what the government is doing and creating conflict between groups of people within society. Divide and Conquer?

[Zynx]

20. Exactly.

This is like saying people who go to private schools have higher IQs.

[Bjorn Against]

23. How can you say that though when a vegetarian diet is less expensive?

Meat is more expensive than produce, so to pretend a vegetarian diet is restricted to the wealthy is just plain wrong. Now of course there are exceptions to that rule, the homeless generally have to take what the shelters feed them and they may not have the option of eating vegetarian. For pretty much every one who buys their own food however they will pay less for vegetarian meals than they would for meat.

[Stardust]

43. Are you sure about that? Are you vegetarian? I was for several years

and found it considerably more expensive to prepare vegetarian meals (especially if you like the "fake meat" products). Seems like we required a larger quantity of food to feel satiated and to prevent hunger from returning too soon.

[Bjorn Against]

50. I am a vegetarian

so I can attest it is not very expensive. Just look at the menus at most restaurants and generally the vegetarian items tend to be cheaper. There certainly are some expensive vegetarian products out there, but as a whole a vegetarian diet is not very expensive.

[Bjorn Against]

21. A vegetarian diet is generally less expensive than a meat based diet

While people in extreme poverty may be required to eat whatever they can get, for people who buy their own food there is really no reason that price would prevent them from eating a vegetarian diet. Meat is generally more expensive than produce, so I don't quite get your point.

(Of course looking outside of America at the world as a whole what you are saying makes more sense, but looking just in America the large majority of people buy their own food and pay more for a meat based diet.)

[KurtNYC]

24. The cost of ground beef on a per calorie basis is FAR lower than

any vegetable I can name.

One pound of 85% lean ground beef is 1163 calories and costs $3

1100 calories of spinach is 176 ounces of spinach or 11 pounds and costs $22 (or if organic at $6/lb: $66)

[Bjorn Against]

26. Well most people get way more calories than they need

You can have a good healthy vegetarian, for less than the cost of a meat based meal which is less healthy.

Quite often people eat half a pound of ground beef in a single meal, for the calorie equivalant they would have to eat 5 and a half pounds of spinich. No one eats five and a half pounds of spinich in one meal.

[Feron]

39. Of course if you eat nuts...

then it is easy to exceed the calories that a person would get in ground beef. One 1/4 cup of the sunflower seeds or plain cashews I eat has 180 calories. I imagine that the honey-roasted and other varieties are even higher. And most people don't portion like I do.

Other items like trail mix and granola are chock full of calories as well.

Meat can also be purchased cheaply if you look for specials. Veg alternatives like faux corndogs are often more expensive than the real thing.

At any rate, I don't think that intelligence and diet are related as long as a person is getting enough nutrition. It's possible that the omnivorous subjects in the study were eating lots of junk. Whereas their vegetarian counterparts likely eat more whole foods and are more alert because they aren't on a sugar rollercoaster.

IQ testing is terribly flawed for many reasons one of them being race. Furthermore scientists cannot define intelligence in a way to test it, so scoring high on an IQ test does not mean that you are smart. IQ testing is useful for determining retardation and that is about it.

[Nikia]

28. Whole chickens are pretty inexpensive too

Fresh produce can be pretty expensive in the off season. When I was growing up poor we didn't eat many vegtables, aside from the ones in school lunches, during the winter because fresh produce was expensive and my mother had a prejudice against canned vegtables.
There are some produce items that are generally inexpensive like dried beans and some produce items in bulk (potatoes, carrots, apples) and cheap bread and eggs, for non vegans.
Culturually, I think that many lower and working class people do consider meat as an important part of their diet and would not eat beans regularly and consider eggs a breakfast food or hear that they are high in cholesteral. There is cheap meat that does provide plenty of calories per dollar when compared to many vegitarian options.

[Sparkly]

30. I don't think anybody's going to eat 11 pounds of spinach at a meal.

I had a lot of lean years with mostly bulk dried beans and grains from a health food store -- they were then about 40-50 cents a pound (and when cooked, they yield a lot of portions). Rice, bulghur, barley, quinoa, for instance; red and yellow lentils, green and yellow split peas, all kinds of beans. Healthy, cheap, and a more efficient use of land than raising cattle, for instance.

[electron_blue]

33. Whenever I've been pushed to the limit of poverty in my life, the first

food to be cut is always meat. I've said before that I was a "financial vegetarian" because meat was too expensive for me. I associate eating meat with having more money.

I don't think anyone would eat 1100 calories of spinach, but you can go damned far on plain old (cheap!) beans & rice.

[dysfunctional press]

35. just the opposite for me.

meat is one of the LAST things i cut out in times of low funds.

ground beef and chicken can always be found cheap, and every once in awhile, there will be fantastic sales on frozen fish.

[tabasco]

51. I loves my beans & rice !

Bouillion cubes onions peppers margarine and hot sauce make it pretty good & beans are very healthy! Yummy!

[smirkymonkey]

66. Haven't you heard? Margarine is considered a "trans-fat"

it's hydrogenated vegetable oil which is associated with a higher rate of heart disease and other cardiovascular problems.

Try olive oil - much better for you and tastes better too! :)

[gollygee]

46. I think "fashionable diets" might refer to

the expensive faux meat items you can find at vegetarian shops, which are indeed pretty expensive. Beans and rice are, of course, very inexpensive and healthy.

[Rob H.]

31. I'm vegetarian and far from affluent

so naturally I don't buy the idea that one has to be affluent to be vegetarian.

[Dastard Stepchild]

40. Same here :)

Thanks bulk beans, rice and spices!

I actually have a very manageable grocery bill, and I am pretty thankful for that.

[LeftyMom]

47. Rice and beans are cheap.

I'm vegan and I don't have a lot of money by any stretch of the imagination.

[mzmolly]

54. Beans are dirt cheap.

One can get a bag of dried beans for two bucks and eat soup for a week straight.

[originalpckelly]

16. So says the person in a permanent vegetarian state.(nt)

[Dastard Stepchild]

37. You've brought this one out a few times...

It must be one of your favorite statements (the only?) about vegetarians and/or animal lovers.

[LeftyMom]

49. So sad that it's not funny. It reminds me of when little kids first discover knock nock jokes and

repeat them endlessly to the great annoyance of anybody within earshot.

Orange you glad I didn't say banana? :eyes:

[Dastard Stepchild]

52. :)

"Orange you glad I didn't say banana?"

Now I'll have that one in my head for the rest of the day. That or..

Guess what?
What?
Chicken butt.

[bananas]

61. Hey, I resemble that remark!

And how come everyone always ignores the fruitarians and breatharians?
Breatharian is the cheapest diet.

edit: I'm vegetarian except for fish, and I agree it's less expensive and healthier (for most people).

[originalpckelly]

63. So says the person in a permanent vegetarian state.

:P

[babylonsister]

19. I thought your IQ was established in your youth; you can increase it as

you age? Who knew!

[UTUSN]

25. So HITLER would be looked-up-to? He also loved dogs & LIMBO loves Xmas n/t

[Sparkly]

29. Huh?

:shrug:

[Bjorn Against]

36. uhh, Hitler was not even a vegetarian

In fact his favorite dish had sausauge in it. He did not eat a lot of meat, but he was no vegetarian and even if he was why would that matter?

We don't associate all people who eat meat with Genghis Khan, and I find it ridiculous and insulting that people would associate vegetarians with Hitler.

I am sorry but you are using one of the most reprehesible right wing smears.

[LeftyMom]

48. Hitler wasn't a vegetarian.

While his doctors had advised a vegetarian diet for a problem with flatulence, he was quite fond of sausages and roasted birds.

[UTUSN]

56. To #s 29, 36, & 48

29: Wouldn't a "higher I.Q." be considered something POSITIVE? Therefore, if so, then the positivity would be being attached to vegetarianism. Besides some health benefits, I'm mostly neutral about veganism, besides a SMALL vague annoyance at the rigidity in a couple of vegans I've known. So, my comment was to point up a NEUTRAL rather than a POSITIVE value. Certainly nothing personal about the o.p. or anybody else.

36: Now, THIS gets my dander up. How in the world is using-HITLER-as-a-NEGATIVE "a right wing talking point." It's against DU rules to call a fellow DUer a wingnut, besides being just rude.

to 36 AND 48: It's news to me that HITLER wasn't a vegetarian. Somewhere, somehow, I osmosed that he was. Thanks for that info. That being the case, we can go with the HITLER-loved-dogs angle to point up that WHATEVER-good-quality does not transmute into a generalized-positivity.


to 36: I certainly did not intend any ugliness, certainly NOT anything personal. I'm in NO mood for a flame war, and this topic doesn't merit one. I'm also checking out now, so let's end it here, or (you) declare victory, or whatever.

[Bjorn Against]

64. No hard feelings, I just heard right-wingers try to compare vegetarians to Hitler too many times

I believe that you were honest in your belief that Hitler was a vegetarian because I have heard many people try to claim that, it is just quite simply not true.

I wasn't accusing you of being a right-winger, I just said by bringing up the false Hitler connection you were repeating a false right-wing smear. I am sure that is not what you intended to do, but sometimes when people hear some of these "facts" from the right-wing they repeat them without really examining their validity. I have made similar mistakes before, as have most people. I am willing to bet that almost everyone here has repeated a right-wing talking point at one time or another without even realizing it because those talking points are so pervasive.

So again no hard feelings, I do not think you are a right-winger I just hope you can take this as a lesson before you make these associations in the future.

[PADemD]

67. Tonight's History Channel program stated that Hitler was a vegetarian.

[Sparkly]

27. Another article about this

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061215/hl_hsn/kidswithhighiqsgrowuptobevegetarians

[dysfunctional press]

34. their mothers probably weren't vegetarians tho...

i remember reading something a long time ago, to the effect that women who ate a high-protien diet during pregnancy usually gave birth to healthier, and ultimately smarter, children.

[Dastard Stepchild]

38. WELL... since science proves I am a genius then...

Please feel free to direct all future challenging questions to me as opposed to that know-it-all Marilyn vos Savant. I'll make sure to stock up on the tofu in case you throw me any zingers.

Erm, except that I think the IQ test is a worthless measure of intelligence. But I'll go ahead and overlook it. JUST THIS ONCE.

:)

[Pithlet]

41. So, if you're both tall and a vegetarian and happen to be a Leo

then all the latest studies say you should be a super-genius as well as an excellent driver. :thumbsup:

[EstimatedProphet]

44. I usually test around 145-150. I eat meat.

Suck on that!

[mzmolly]

53. Well if 100 ate fish and chicken and called themselves vegitarians

I have to argue against the claims of intelligence. ;) I was a vegetarian, and ate no flesh for two years. Then I had a child and we began alternating vegetarian days with meat days. Now, I look for organic humanely slaughtered meats when ever possible. I think that means I'm of average intelligence? But, then again, I knew that.

[NoodleyAppendage]

55. Correlation is NOT causation. Epidemiological research is not prospective.

I guess the vegetarians around here already know the points in my response title and the rest of us meat-eaters are too dumb to understand simple scientific tenets.

J

[eppur_se_muova]

62. Well and succinctly put. Surveys ask questions. The answers they return ...

may not be at all what the investigators were looking for.

In this case, the correlations between vegetarianism and educational status may simply swamp any other effects. OTOH, what if they HAD observed some statistically significant correlation that couldn't be assigned to other variables? That would be a significant result, and one worth adding to our store of knowledge. The fact that they didn't observe a large effect independent of social/educational status isn't surprising, but I would say that in a way it's reassuring. I'd hate to think human neurophysiology was that fragile.

Not posting the OP would have been kind of like walking past a small fire and a big can of gasoline and ... walking on past. :evilgrin:

Now, where's the survey correlating vegetarianism with atheism? Or atheism with heart disease?

[Dastard Stepchild]

65. I do know all the points... and I am a vegetarian, so it it should be of no surprise there...

But I am also a PhD student, so I am pretty sure that trumps the ingestion of tofu. Can't read a piece of research now without going through the mental checklist of everything I ever learned in my research methods class.

I'll never forget our first day of class... the professor made us repeat ad nauseum "Correlation is NOT causation."

[Zhade]

57. Correlation is not causation.

Well, at least this is a better post than the one wherein a vegetarian tried to make the laughable argument that their shit literally doesn't stink.

Man, that was arrogant! And hilarious!

[Katzenjammer]

58. All those IQ "differences" are noise.

The amount of defensiveness in this thread is amusing, but pointless. If the IQ "differences" are as described, there are no differences.

[mirandapriestly]

59. I think it's like Volvos have less fatalities

because people who buy an expensive car reputed to be safe are more likely top be careful drivers, not because the care is actually safer to drive.
We're vegetarians and my 13 year old who has never eaten meat is in APP which requires the top 2%-3% in national standardized testing, but I think the thinking makes you vegetarian rather than the other way way around.

[raggedcompany]

60. who gives a shit?

good for them/us/whoever.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. They also included people who eat fish and chicken as "vegetarians".

Methinks the hard core PETA gang might want to read the whole article before they add this to the list of reasons to lecture meat eaters.