Clearing up the Mount Hood situation

[Donkeyboy75]

Climbing has risks; all climbers know this. These guys did NOT go up thinking "Oh well, if we fuck up, the taxpayers and SAR will bail us out."

Facts:

1) The climbers did NOT knowing go into an exceptionally dangerous situation. They left Thursday, when weather reports did not indicate dangerous conditions.

2) Taxpayers foot little of the bill for SAR efforts. These are often supported privately, and the rescuers themselves are volunteers. Why?

3) Taxpayers do foot some of the bill. Rescue work does give the national guard and mountain divisions of our military good "real-world" training during these efforts.

4) These climbers sought to limit risk as much as possible. They made rangers aware of their specific plans and were fully trained for their climb.

5) The route these climbers took is actually MORE unsafe in the summer due to falling rock and unstable snow conditions.

I'm sorry for those of you out there who are more worried about their purse strings than the fate of these three guys.

[treestar]

1. That clears that up. No further discussion allowed.

Your last sentence is not true. There is a social question there, and there is no reason we can't discuss it - you just attempt to shut down the issue with insults.

[Donkeyboy75]

5. When did I say we couldn't discuss it?

"Clearing up" means stating facts, not closing down discussion...

By the way, that last sentence was an opinion. This is a discussion board, last I checked.

[Rosemary2205]

16. LOL

From a poster who insulted me because I disagreed....... LOL. :)

[Nutmegger]

2. Jezus, why are we even talking about this?

If people are so damn worried about money, pressure the Democrats to cut the war funding or come up with a withdrawal plan. That'll save us a lot!

[Joanne98]

3. Funny, I was just thinking about bitching about the costs....

My New's Resolution is going to be to "bitch about money ALL the time."

The families should get the bill. I don't care about the fate of these three guys. Sorry.

[Minnesota_Lib]

23. I agree. In fact, I think we should disband fire departments. If people are..

..stupid enough to burn their houses down, it's their tough shit. I don't even care if the fire is in the middle of the night, I don't care about the fate of families who let their houses catch on fire.

And why do we need the Coast Guard? If someone's boat sinks, tough titty. Hell, think of the money that could be saved by eliminating police departments as well.

:sarcasm:

[PsN2Wind]

4. I'm sure you're aware though

that the cost of this rescue would fund seconds of the war in Iraq.

[Donkeyboy75]

6. LOL

[judaspriestess]

7. wouldn't these guys get billed?

[Donkeyboy75]

9. I'm not sure, to be honest.

The policy differs from place to place. Sometimes if the parties being rescued are shown to be negligent, they will be billed.

The American Alpine Club does offer rescue insurance for these instances.

[FightingIrish]

8. It's funny though how the entire nation can get so wrapped up

in the fate of three climbers and be so unconcerned about the three soldiers that die every day in Iraq. Sadly, for most Americans the daily death toll in Iraq is about as important as the weather or stock market.

[Donkeyboy75]

10. No argument there.

[benddem]

12. or the wounded

at Walter Reed, Madigan, Great Lakes, etc etc etc. The non-stop coverage of the Kim family just made me angry. The press just doesn't tell what is happening. Besides climbers and travelers get lost all the time in Oregon and Washington.

[smirkymonkey]

13. Yeah - this country's priorities are totally fucked up.

[Joanne98]

14. It's infotainment. The MSM loves "911 rescue" shows.......

It's a "human interest" story. "Blue collar news"....I guess they are taking a break from "missing white women".

[tridim]

15. That's not the fault of "the nation"

It's the fault of the corporate media. 10 years ago the climbers would have been a one day local story, today it's the #1 national story.

[theoldman]

11. There are only two reasons why these guys are in trouble.

Poor planing which includes not properly checking out the weather forecast or bad luck. Sometimes it's a combination of both. We will know the answer when they are rescued or their bodies are found.

[katsy]

17. It's kind to take care of our fellow human beings.

Money spent to save people is money well spent.

We need great thinkers, great builders, great dreamers and people who want to climb mountains. Some of them become our heros... just look at our astronauts.

We don't need war and more death machines. Let the repubics show their greed. Not us.

[TankLV]

18. Let's see - winter on a mountaintop - no chance of a change of weather....

These guys, for all their self proclaimed "experience" have only proven that they are indeed SELFISH IDIOTS.

They ARE needlessly risking others' lives for their stupidity and thoughtlessness.

I saw let them freeze and take them out of the "jean" pool...

They get absolutely NO sympathy from me.

I do feel sorry for those that loved them - only THEY are the blameless ones here.

I hope if they are resqued, they are made to foot the ENTIRE BILL of their rescue cost.

And my only prayer is that these idiots don't cause the needless deaths of any of those who are trying to rescue them...

[ruiner4u]

19. wow... Just wow....

[Donkeyboy75]

20. Again, when they set out, the weather report was fine.

"I saw let them freeze and take them out of the "jean" pool..."

Who's the idiot?

[MazeRat7]

22. We were warned about casting asparagus.... the "jean" pool.... thats rich *LOL -nt

[TankLV]

30. And everyone knows that is stays all warm and ducky in winter on a mountaintop.

Right.

These guys are IDIOTS. Plain and simple.

There are more important things to worry about than these idiots.

Sorry, they should be left to their "expertise".

And, to answer a poster below, it's not at all the same as a dark atm or some other such silly try at comparisons.

They sought out a thrill - and now they are living the biggest thrill of their lives.

So we should be happy for them...

[piedmont]

45. It's already been brought up that this climb is safest in winter

"And, to answer a poster below, it's not at all the same as a dark atm or some other such silly try at comparisons."
Why? Because you say so?

"They sought out a thrill - and now they are living the biggest thrill of their lives."
So seeking out fun and exhiliration should be forbidden now?

I don't get the attitude-- these men set out with a good plan to mitigate the risks, then had the double-bad-luck of one them being injured with an unforeseeable storm coming up. People have VOLUNTEERED to rescue them, and you still have a problem with that?

[AlienAvatar]

24. That's a disgusting idea

I don't, for a second, think you are a lurking freeper, but this is EXACTLY the type of response I would expect to find in freeperville.

Quote, "I saw let them freeze and take them out of the "jean" pool..."

Honest to god, I don't like flame wars, but I sincerely hope you are not raising children.

If, or when, they return, fine them, punish them, make them feel shame, whatever. If they deserve it, give it to them. What you suggest is simply over the top wrong and immoral. Disgusting and evil.

[TankLV]

28. You just join up to say that?!?!

You're funny - in a sick way...

[Ariana Celeste]

55. yeah omg look at his post count

his opinion should totally be ignored :eyes:

[TankLV]

31. And I should care what you say - why exactly?!

My comments stand - and I double them...

[piedmont]

51. You obviously DO care, or you wouldn't post two responses to the same post

"My comments stand - and I double them..."

And they're doubly idiotic.

[tkmorris]

38. Welcome to DU

Don't worry about Tank's insinuations. Most of us here are really quite sane.

:hi:

[AlienAvatar]

47. Thanks

I was here years ago as sammythecat. I just started up again and thought I had to make a new identity. AZDem just pointed out that my old profile is still here. I didn't know that.

Anyway, I regret that I restrained myself from pointing out this jerks numerous spelling errors which just point to a lazy and sloppy mind. It seemed like it would just be pileing on. There's even a spell checker available when he posts, for crying out loud? All he has to do is click.

I hate to use a cliche, but it this instance it's appropriate. I'm not going to respond to his comments because they are simply not worth any time or effort. People like yourself can see them for what they are. I don't need to explain anything.

[bigwillq]

57. Hi!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[northzax]

26. let's see

dark alleyway, short skirt at night...of course you got raped, why should we spend any time or money helping you? come on, what did you expect?

also, handliy applies to people who deal illegal drugs, go home with people drunk, borrow money from guys named Gino, drop the soap in the prison shower, marry abusive assholes, buy a used car, not wear seatbelts or helmets, the list goes on and on. Think of how great society would be if we just didn't give a shit about people in trouble because they may not have made what we think are the smartest decisions! Wow, we'd save a ton of money!

[TankLV]

32. It's not about the money - it's about risking the lives of people to rescue these dumb asses...

I just hope no one else has to suffer...

And I hope the state sics a huge bill on them IF they survive...

[northzax]

36. the rescue people are volunteers

fellow mountaineers who think this is important enough to spend their free time, with no compensation, even expenses, to save lives.

you may not appreciate it, but people in the mountains do.

[TankLV]

33. No - more like bungie jumping off a building or a bridge over rocks...

or drag racing TOWARDS each other playing chicken - those would be the apt comparisons...

YOU risk it, YOU pay the consequences...

Expect NO sympathy from me...

[northzax]

39. climbing Mt. Hood is statistically

much safer than many other activities. about ten thousand people a year do it (it's the second most climed glaciated peak in the world, behind Mt. Fuji) these guys have a combined 14 ascents of Mt. Ranier and experience in the Alps and Andes, they are not rookies.

why so much anger from a mountaneering expert?

[TankLV]

40. Picture this then...

It's just like the STUPID TOURISTS that ignor all the signs on Oahu's North Shore that announces that the BEACH IS CLOSED TO SWIMMING because of the high surf. And yet these idiots STILL insist on going in. People who live in houses on the shore have to move into town during the winter to avoid hearing the crys of help and RISKING THEIR OWN LIVES to rescue these idiots because they know they can't sit idly by and do nothing!

Understand better now?!

These guys INTENTIONALLY put THEMSELVES in harms way.

NOT an "accident".

They should have known better.

They get NO sympathy from me...

[northzax]

44. the mountain wasn't closed

not really the same thing, is it?

you have made your lack of care for fellow humans very well known, don't worry. I, personally, don't wish death or injury on anyone, and am proud to be part of a community, in some small way, where people are willing, even compelled by their own souls, to risk life and limb to help other people, even when those people may have not made the best decisions. It is blatently obvious you know nothing about mountaineering, nothing about Mt. Hood and nothing about what is going on.
Leaving your house in the morning puts you in harm's way, all you can do is mitigate it. Eveyone doing this search is a volunteer, no one is compelled to do it, and we are all better for having such people in our mix. Thank god there are people in the world who don't turn their backs. I hope you never need their help, but even if you do, they will gladly grant it, get you home and yell at you later.

[AlienAvatar]

52. Picture this then...

You are the one in charge of rescue operations in that area. Someone comes to you and says they have a loved one who is an idiot with suicidal tendencies. Their beloved moron is now stuck on the mountain and they can't come down without aid. They need help or they will die. This person then says to you, "Will you help my loved one?".
What would you say to this person. What are the exact words you would use to say "no, I won't." My feeling is that is probably all you'd say, and then you'd shut the door.
If that's the case, why are you here? Why are you a democrat. I think if you look around you'll find other websites and groups that would be more to your liking. Please, look around. Check out FreeRepublic.com. You'll find far more people agreeing with you there than here. As loathesome as you attitude is in this case, I can't help but feel you have many more ideas I would find repugnant.

I probably should strike that last sentence. I might be wrong about that. This might be an isolated case caused by a short term bout with freeperflu but it's doubtful.

[tkmorris]

27. I don't believe I just read that

Sometimes someone says something so bizarre that any refutation becomes impossible. Something so wrong that any attempt to counter it is just saying what is already blindingly obvious, though apparently not to the person being addressed.

This is one of those times.

[DarbyUSMC]

35. Yes, this is one of those times.

[northzax]

34. oh, and it's worth noting,

although I am sure you know this as well, that the primary Search and Rescue work on the mountain is being done by Portland Mountain Rescue and the Mazamas, both non profits staffed by volunteers.

disclosure, PMR has gotten a check from me on an annual basis since I first climbed Mt Hood in 1992- and I have been a Mazama member since I climbed Baker that same year.

[rasputin1952]

54. Well, if my few bucks in tax payments can help to find ...

these people and bring them home, I'm all for it.

Maybe I'm from the old school of Liberalism, but I figure that if we can save lives, we should do it. I am in no position to decide about the mental capabilities of those on Mt Hood, it makes no difference to me, just as the cost makes no difference to me. It as if saying that those who get caught caught in a storm at sea should just die, because they were too "stupid" to stay on land. Then again, those who stay on land are subject to tornadoes, floods and earthquakes. None of these victims should be die because we decided that the "cost" is too much to bear.

I suppose empathy plays a part in how I feel about this, I would not like my son to hear that they were not going to look for me after another 20 minutes, because some taxpayer might get upset. Somehow, that seems so inherently wrong to me as to wonder just why someone would think like that.

As for their going to Mt Hood, it was their decision, and I'll grant that; but it is the decision of a humane society to try and bring them home, there really aren't any other alternatives.

[blitzen]

21. interesting story on 3 teens who survived 13 days in Mt Hood snow cave in '76

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/116615670631000.xml&coll=7

[Mind_your_head]

25. Neat story - thanks for posting this blitzen! eom

[northzax]

29. for a sadder one

Everyone should take a moment to remember the 1986 tragedy on Mt. Hood where nine OES students died in a snowcave. S+R is much better now, thankfully. But even then, there were two survivors in the cave, so of course searching continues. If these guys are in a snow cave, they are probably alive.

[OregonBlue]

37. I partially agree but, any experienced climber would know that any

Cascade peak in general and Hood in particular, is very dangerous in December. Hood is notorious for those storms that move in very, very quickly. It's a dangerous mountain even in the best of weather and if they didn't know that or didn't bother to find out, then, they just shouldn't have been up there.

On the other hand, I pray that they are found alive. I don't want them to die just because they were ill-informed. Screw the cost, there are three people up there that need to be saved if at all possible and I don't care who ends up paying the bill as long as they are found alive.

Many of the people who were stranded in New Orleans also used bad judgment and CHOSE not to evacuate. I didn't hear DUers calling on them to foot the bill or advocating that we not try to rescue them. How is this any different? These three men and their families need and deserve our help. We all make mistakes, we shouldn't have to pay for them with our lives.

[Donkeyboy75]

41. Yes, the weather can change any time.

Hence the risk that they knew was involved. They posted their plans on climbing forums and were aware of the fickle weather in the Cascades.

I think it's reasonable to second-guess these guys and their plan, but to say, as some have, that they "deserve" to die is patently idiotic.

[OregonBlue]

49. Patently idiotic and hard hearted. Money more important than their lives?

Like I said, when the New Orleans victims chose to stay and were suffering, I didn't hear many DUers saying we should walk away, charge them, etc.

[windbreeze]

42. I hate to say this

but possible hurricane force winds had been mentioned to me by a local clerk in town, so when I came home, I checked it out via computer, SEVERE WEATHER WARNING was right there in red letters, and that was on Thursday...the only thing I can't say for sure, is whether that was posted after they left...I know it makes no difference now, of course, and I do hope they are safe and found...
windbreeze

[northzax]

46. they departed on Wednesday

and were supposed to be down on Thursday.

just as a clarification.

[windbreeze]

62. thank you

I didn't know that...I thought someone said they left on Thursday...man, I hope they are ok...I can't imagine the horror of being caught on that mountain with the kind of storm we had raging on the ground...
wb

[depakid]

43. "These climbers sought to limit risk as much as possible."

This statement likely to be factually incorrect. My understanding is that they didn't have an emergency locater transmitter with them (an MLU). You can rent these from several places- I consider them essential gear in any winter climb even on the crowded and less challenging south face routes. A cell phone alone won't do.

The went in from Cooper Spur (whether they got the required wilderness permit and climbing registration, I don't know- but it appears they left them -or just an impromptu note -at an unattended facility, as the "note" wasn't found until a week after they set off). Cooper spur is on the north face- which is much more remote. There are a number of different routes. Knowing exactly which one they took beforehand would have made finding them much easier during the critical window periods.

While it's true that north face climbs are dangerous due to rockfall in the summer, winter climbs are plenty hazardous for the reasons we have seen, plus there is serious avalanche danger after heavy snows.

Since these guys were not from the Northwest, it's unlikely that they truly appreciated how quickly forecasts- and how frequently- can and do change around here. Once the storm track hits- you can easily have to hunker down in whiteout conditions for a week or more before a break- which may last like 18 hours. Maybe.

Hopefully, they were well prepared for this- although as is usual with climbing tragedies, they suffered some bad luck. No one could have predicted that there'd be a 10 year winter storm- which is for all intents and purposes a hurricane. High winds massive snow and extreme temperatures on the mountain are common in any storm- but 95 MPH winds are not.

Considering the conditions, I'll be surprised (and very pleased) if they make it down unscathed, with fingers and toes intact. If they all do, I'm sure that when the dust settles, they'll be the first ones to admit that mistakes were made.

[Jennicut]

48. I think the climbers probably made some mistakes but I hope they are found healthy and alive

I think they probably new it was risky when they went up but I think alot of climbers like the challenge. I do think they did not realize how bad it could get up there and wish they had chosen an easier route and maybe not done it in December. However, the families have been extremely thankful towards the National Guard and volunteers and I bet if the climbers are found would say they want to try and pay some of the money back that is being spent if they could. I don't think they expected this to happen as they have done many climbs before.

[Cleita]

50. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

DH and I used to travel up through Oregon and around Mt. Hood following the Columbia river in the spring to see the waterfalls. (I recommend it for anyone who loves to see the beauties of America.) I don't remember a time that there weren't reports on the local Portland radio station of hikers missing up there at one time or another. There are hazards of going into the wilderness that most of us know about who do it and although we prepare as thoroughly as we can, it's sometimes hard to predict what may happen.

[skygazer]

53. My issue with things like this is not money

Nor is it some idea that these guys' lives don't have value or that they shouldn't have been out there. My problem is with the way virtually everyone seems to view nature.

Realistically, the reason those guys are in trouble, the reason that guy died in Oregon last week, the reason the Donner party ended up where they did and Timothy Treadwell got eaten by a bear and all the people who died in Indonesia in that tsunami died and the reason people's houses that get built on the sides of mountains fall down is because they took on nature and they lost. Human beings have this arrogant assumption of control over nature which makes them assign fault in any incident like this. And it's laughable.

We think because we have weather forecasts, and GPS and fancy technology and special equipment and our big ol' brains that we have control. We think of nature as some sort of beautiful benign entity that we can just view through the safety of our automobile glass or the cushion of our technology. We challenge it, as climbers do, but for the most part, we don't respect it (I think it's highly likely that those climbers know it and respect it more than most people who are criticizing their actions).

Indiginous peoples learned to live in inhospitable climates and conditions not by changing nature to suit their needs, as modern "civilized" man does, but by adapting their lives to suit the conditions. But we assume that we can beat nature somehow. Then when inevitably, someone doesn't, and they get stuck on a mountain, or lost in the woods, or fall in a creek or get attacked by a bear, we try to figure out what they did wrong and how they could have done things differently to survive.

The truth is, Nature is the most powerful force on the planet and we, like every other creature, are at its mercy. Instead of arguing over whether these guys were right or wrong, we need to admit that there but for a lot of luck go any of us because even if we're not traipsing around on Mr. Hood, we're really not as clever as we think we are and any of us can get beat by nature.

[piedmont]

56. "Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you"

I agree, somewhat, that we all owe our continued existence to a good bit of luck, but this paragraph I take issue with:

"Indiginous peoples learned to live in inhospitable climates and conditions not by changing nature to suit their needs, as modern "civilized" man does, but by adapting their lives to suit the conditions. But we assume that we can beat nature somehow. Then when inevitably, someone doesn't, and they get stuck on a mountain, or lost in the woods, or fall in a creek or get attacked by a bear, we try to figure out what they did wrong and how they could have done things differently to survive. "

You seem to be transferring some sort of mythical status to indigenous people-- that they don't get affected by natural catastrophe as much as "we" do. And then going on some fatalistic notion that we shouldn't waste our time figuring out what people in dire situations could have done better. But that's exactly how we improve our survivability (and it's how the indigenous people do, too)-- we find cases where things went wrong, and figure out what could have been done better, and improve our probability of survival if ever faced with the same situation.

edit: spelling

[northzax]

59. excellent point

what, exactly, was the life expectancy of an Inuit in 1800? not that good, I would suspect

And someone should look into the Windigo, before ascribing too much elegance to the indiginous lifestyle.

but I think the poster has one good point, reiterated by many a mountain and river guide: we all have some small sympathy for prople caught on the mountain (or river) but remember that the mountain/river has no sympathy at all. It simply is. When your number gets called, it is the most implacable force in the world.

The mountain doesn't give a shit that people die or live on it. we do. The mountain never makes mistakes, we do. and after we are all long gone and dead, the mountain will remain, not caring at all. it's humbling to think about.

[skygazer]

66. I didn't mean to sound like I thought indiginous people were somehow exempt

Only that for the most part they had the sense to work with nature and respect it rather than arrogantly assume they had some sort of control over it.

And I certainly don't think it's a waste of time to figure out better ways to survive the wilderness - I do however think it's foolish to argue over what people should have done when no one really knows what they did or what their exact situation was (which is something so many people do - "Well, I wouldn't have done THAT"). Certainly all of us should have some knowledge of how to survive in nature before we go wandering out there.

[Cleita]

63. Having lived both in cities and in the woods, I feel safer in the

woods even when I have had an occasional encounter with a wild animal who could damage me. Usually they ignore me as long as I don't seem threatening to them. Of course there could always be that one who decides to put me on the menu. That's the nature of the wilderness. Weather is actually a bigger threat and I have always tried to hole up in a safe place during storms. But really urban life is far more dangerous. Just the act of battling traffic on the freeway is far more dangerous than hiking in the woods.

[SeattleGirl]

58. One thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that in the

Pacific Northwest, mountain climbing is a very popular activity, and there ARE a lot of very experienced climbers here. People come from all over the United States to climb Mt. Hood, Mt. Rainier, etc. It is true that some inexperienced people do go out climbing and get themselves into trouble because they didn't know and didn't take the time to learn all they needed to know before they set out, and get themselves into trouble primarily due to their ignorance. But that is not the case with a lot of other climbers.

There IS an inherent risk in climbing, no doubt about it. I learned to rock climb years ago; my teacher was a friend of mine who also teaches mountain climbing, ice climbing, and rock climbing with the Mountaineering Club. We made sure we had all our supplies, that our equipment was in top condition, checked the weather all the way up to the time we set out, and set out. We took every precaution possible. The trip was successful, but still, something unforeseen could have happened. I've injured myself more around the house than I did on that trip (a really bad heel blister and very sore muscles were the only things that happened on that trip).

People partake in all kinds of activities that can cause harm. Just because some people choose to partake in activities such as mountain climbing doesn't mean they're stupid, or reckless. They do it because they want to do it, and the smart ones go about it in a careful, methodical way, seeking to give themselves the best advantage while they're doing it. These particular men left notes describing where they were going, what supplies they had, etc., which is pretty damned smart.

Some of the comments I have seen about these men are very disheartening. Would you condemn Jane if she were killed or seriously injured in a car accident because she chose to drive to Aunt Sally's house? She didn't HAVE to go, but she chose to go. If she were driving responsibly, but Joe Yahoo was not, and hit her vehicle, is that her fault? Would you make her the bad person because she got behind the wheel of her car? The cops and the ambulances and the fire trucks have to respond to that accident. Why would that be seen any differently than someone who chose to go climbing, or to play baseball or football, and got hurt in the process, and required the assistance of others?

These are not stupid, careless men, and should not be condemned because they got caught in something they didn't foresee.

[northzax]

61. I can tell you the answer

and it's sad. I think, really, that the problem comes from mountaineering being perceived as a fairly elitist sport (which on some level it is, but not neccesarily) and that, combined with the idea that some people are strictly risk averse, for whatever reason, leads to it being easy to condemn. it is a shame that people who know nothing of the sport would feel that way, but I bet there is a strong correlation. So who cares if a couple of rich white guys freeze to death? serves them right for being rich white guys who do things that some people can't comprehend.

[SeattleGirl]

64. Good points, northzax

And I think that that perception comes from the expeditions to places like Everest, where more and more rich people have been paying for guides to take them up. They have little or no experience, and sometimes the guides and leaders get caught up in having to take the summit first (i.e. Rob Hall and Scott Fisher on Everest...the weather system that moved in was unexpected, but I also think they took their eye off the ball and let their competitiveness overtake them, with tragic results). But many people who climb do it for the love of the sport, for the challenge to themselves, rather than as a "prize" they can lord over others.

But regardless of whether someone is rich or not, they don't "deserve" to die on a mountain.

[jpgray]

60. Speaking as someone who has climbed many of the San Juans, I agree completely

[Donkeyboy75]

65. And may you climb many more, good sir!

:patriot:

[librechik]

67. My hubby is a climber and I am appalled at the situation--

But I recognize the expertise of the climbers and the safety steps they took--Also appreciate the details you have posted. We can all learn a lot about survival from this incident, no matter the outcome. Sometimes Nature is just too strong for even the wisest and most prepared.