Does the Pentagon have too many golf courses?

[Joanne98]

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=military+golf+courses&btnG=Search

The Pentagon operates 234 golf courses around the world. This seems to be a perk of the "permament officer core" an elite group that's seems to get ignored when we talk about greed.

Is this really necessary? The US is 49 trillion dollars in debt(with obligations). The dollar is dropping, the real estate bubble is popping, jobs are still going overseas...

I've been playing with google earth and was trying to locate these bases so I could see what they look like. You know, how the other have lives....

I know people like to talk about 200 dollars toilets but can you image flying from country to country just to play golf.

[Captain Hilts]

1. The courses are not free and are self-supporting. Perhaps the US govt. should pay taxes ...

on the property.

[Joanne98]

6. You mean the riff raff gets to use them too?

I think we need an investigation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. If you are an officer and you consider

enlisted rift raft, yes absolutely

Any other questions you may want to ask?

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Yuo PAY to use those courses

granted if you are playing in Hawaii, you play at a lower rate than the civilian courses

Oh and the courses are ALSO OPENED TO ENLISTED MEN AND WOMEN in Hawaii, and charge on a prorated by rank fee structure.

They are managed by MWR a NOT for Profit corporation by the way.

They USED TO BE only opened to commisioned officers and their dependents.

[Joanne98]

8. What is a MWR? Do you have a link?

Are they connected to that "Executive Golf" by any chance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Morale, Welfare and Receration

you obviously have NO CONTACT with the armed forces, or you would not be asking this qusetion.

Here is the link to the Navy's version of it

http://www.mwr.navy.mil/

[Joanne98]

18. Welfare? I thought we had welfare reform? We must have missed

this program. Thank's for the link.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Why do you hate the troops?

obviously you hate the troops, by the way definition of the word welfare is not only taking care of the poor.

In this case it is taking care of the mental health of troops

So your only use for troops is for them to get killed, and kill for you?

Unfrigging amazing!

[Joanne98]

25. I don't think the "troops" are the ones using these facilities.

I must be crazy to attack GOLF COURSES.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. They are using those facilities

My husband WAS a Navy Chief, well he is a USN chief Retired adn HE USED those facilities. Is he not a troop? (Well sailor in his case) but you get the frigging picture

[rug]

31. The 234 golf courses are part of the military mental health system?

I'll be damned.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Yes it is called RECREATION

Are you obtuse all the time or only when it involves the troops

[rug]

37. Recreation is not mental health

Why don't they close, say 200 or so of them, and fund PTSD clinics.

Or are you obtuse when it involves dimpled white balls?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. It is part of mental health

if you don't get it, I cannot explain this to you

By the way, what part of SELF SUPPORTING are you purposely missing?

While those mental health clinics at the VA, are tax payer supported, coming from DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS

Do we need to draw pictures for you?

[rug]

47. It's not self-supporting unless the land was bought and paid for.

Turning over hundreds of acres of federal land for golf courses for the military is not only silly, it's obscene.

A contract to cover operating expenses does not make it self-supporting.

I'd gladly support closing them down and direct the funds to MH clinics.

Even better, I'd pull them all out so they may avoid PTSD in the first place.

Defending this paean to military culture in the guise of "supporting the troops" is plain bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. As I said before

should we also close all military housing?

How about Trippler Medical Center? Balboa Medical Center?

The schools that we use to teach dependents in foreign bases?

Care to go on?

You hate the military, that is clear

MWR facilities are built WITHIN bases, they are already military reservations.

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about, but you hate the troops. Some in the left DO HAVE a blind spot, you happen to be one of them

Again what part of SELF SUPPORTING and non taxpayer accounts, aka will save you nothing, are you purposely missing?

[rug]

55. Let me see . . . .

You equate housing, hospitals and schools with golf courses.

No, I really don't think there is any need for you to go on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Why not?

MWR is part of the support structure

[Joanne98]

56. The US has a mental health system. It's called prison.

Because we can't AFFORD to put them anywhere else.

[Joanne98]

147. APF funds are authorized and APPROPIATED by congress

Figure 1. MWR Funding Process
Appropriated Funds
APF are funds authorized and appropriated by Congress to provide the basic support to MWR. Stringent rules governing the use of APF can be found in Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) 37-1 and AR 215-1. The rationale for APF support is to provide facilities and services that are deemed mission essential or are normally available to a civilian community from the tax base. Operation and Maintenance, Army; Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation; and Military Personnel, Army are the primary APF sources supporting operations. Military Construction, Army supports authorized major construction requirements in accordance with Appendix E of AR 215-1.

TO PROVIDE BASIC SUPPORT TO MWR!

[leftchick]

107. I agree

how about some balls and hoops for "recreation"? Running one golf course costs millions, over 200 ??? That is insanity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. MWR facilities are self sustainiing

and are not part of the DOD general fund, or allocated by Congress

Why is this SO DAMN HARD FOR PEOPLE TO GET?

[Joanne98]

134. Who OWNS the MWR facilities?

They have to be OWNED by somebody. I still haven't seen you put up a link to any financial reports. I never even heard of them before.

[kiahzero]

154. *Gasp* The U.S. Government

I know, it's shocking that the government owns military facilities. :eyes:

Just googling "MWR self-sufficient" without the quotes will find you plenty of references to portions of MWR that are required to be self-sufficient. To my knowledge, things like the Commissary aren't required to be self-sufficient, because that would defeat the purpose - subsidizing the cost of food for military families.

[Joanne98]

162. See post 146#

[kiahzero]

165. And?

[Captain Hilts]

46. If it's such a sweet deal, why don't you sign up? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I already served

and my husband retired from the USN, any other stupid questions you may want to ask?

[Captain Hilts]

90. It wasn't a response to your comment. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. my apologies

[Little Wing]

72. Your attempts at arguing are uninformed, tiresome, and boring

:eyes:

[Joanne98]

41. You should read the MWR page closer...

http://www.mwr.navy.mil/mwrprgms/finance/ufm_memo_secnav_04.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I don't have to read it

beng the wife of AN ENLISTED man I used MWR extensively, and you know what? It will chafe you... I STILL have access to those facilities

[JohnLocke]

12. Morale, Welfare and Recreation

http://www.armymwr.com/
http://www.mwr.navy.mil/
http://www.nps.edu/adminsrv/Navigation/MWR.html

[northshore]

3. And why not?

I used the golf courses on military bases all the time when I was in the military. What exactly is your problem with the military having access to reasonably priced, accessible, recreational activities?

[Joanne98]

4. Here's a "military resort" in Germany...

Charm in the Alps...

http://www.edelweisslodgeandresort.com/home.html

OOOHHH the sacrifice....

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. And your problem with MWR is....

Why is this attitude so prevalent?

This is the only way some troops, and their families, can AFFORD a vacation.

[Joanne98]

14. I didn't know the troops were playing golf.

Do they have a courses in Iraq? BTW this is my NEW attitude. My News Years Resolution is to bitch about money all the time. I just don't see golf courses as something we can afford. Maybe if the rich paid more TAXES!

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Then you can bitch about something else

as to an active combat zone, if they have one it would be in the green zone, and open most likely to military contractors before the troops who are too busy going outside the wire and GETTING KILLED, is this the only use for troops that you approve off?

Now do some research, you may find out that MWR is SELF SUPPORTING, has been SELF SUPPORTING for decades and is one of the few perks troops have.

Those gulf courses are not costing the taxpayer but in some ways the troops.

[Joanne98]

24. These golf courses are not costing the taxpayer? Really.

Well I will do some research. The little googling I have done is saying differently and the "contractors" are NOT the troops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Will tell you what

you want to close military housing too?

How about closing all pxs,

Schools for military kids

perhaps the military medical system, I mean that is cosing money too... and healing troops is not something we should do, especially if they are gonna cost more than what we invested in them in training.

How about the VA system?

By your attitude the only thing the military should do is train and kill, train and kill,

That would definitely help balance the budget, now wouldn't it?

Again why do you hate the troops?

As to the gulf courses, if you are a civilian contractor they are open to you too, and YOU TOO pay a fee to use those courses, if you are a government employee you also have access to MWR, and your prorated fee is also concurrent to your pay in the civilian world

What? Angry that I could stay in an MWR facility on Waikiki beach for 110 bucks while the two hotels besides us were charging 400 and 500 a night?

[Joanne98]

54. I'll tell you what.....

What about the civilians in this country? They get NOTHING! We struggle to keep our public schools open. No housing, no PX and NO Waikiki beach.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. And schools are funded

through your local taxes

Now the people of Hawaii understand the importance of the military

The Pentagon tried, under Rummy, to SELL the hale koa, why the land Fort Durusy happens to be on, is worth literally 4 Billion.

The government of hawaii re designated the land as park, which dropped the value to ten bucks.

But you are conflabing things. the Hale Koa towers were built using MWR funds, not Tax funsd... self supporting, what part are you missing

As to schools, they need to be funded, they are funded from your PROPERTY TAXES... many of your neighbors refuse to pay for them. Closing Fort Durusy or every MWR facility around the world, will NOT give you any more funds to run your local school.

Now pulling out of Iraq will help, but closing every MWR facility will do NOTHING

Damn it, we fought this battle with Rummy the dummy, now we will have to fight it with so called progressives?

And again should we also close Trippler Medical Center, and all the housing for dependents? You still dodge that question

[Joanne98]

I KNOW the schools are funded by local taxes.

But the "locals" are broke. I'm not dodging any questions. Housing for dependants. It's great. I want some for the civilians too and I didn't know Rummy was closing down golf courses. That must be the real reason he was fired.

[Shipwack]

75. You "know" incorrectly...

Many schools overseas are funded by the DOD, and the ones at home that aren't get "impact fees" from the government to help defray the cost of military dependents going there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. For example Hawaii

the local High School got something like 5K per kid per semester

[Joanne98]

131. Just how many schools are we talking about here?

I went to a military school in Japan when I was a kid, so I'm not completely DUMB. The point is the EMPIRE is getting a little expensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. We are talking any area of the country where

dependents go to local schools... how many bases do we have?

Yes the empire is getting expensive but yo are looking to cut things that will not help you, or your cause

You want to cut the empire? Bring ALL THE TROOPS home from all oversea bases.

STOP spending money on R&D that leads to multiple weapons systems that never come to fruition.

Oh and we can start by doing a full audit of the Pentagon

But your posts read like Rummy the Dummy in 2003

you will get no sympathy from me

[Joanne98]

181. Well finally we agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. No we don't

you want to shut down MWR... and I called your bullshit on it

Your anger is misdirected, and if you are, as yuo claim, part of the Center for American Progress, I call bullshit on that as well, or lordly we are in trouble

For the record the people who actually WORK at the Center that I have heard speak or read their work, are a tad more informed... but I am sure you knew that

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Noticed the ammount of people who came out to defend you

and thank you for your service

By the way, she is a good imitation of rummy the dummy... who wanted to close MWR as well, and did not understand what it did either

[Telly Savalas]

159. Will shutting down MWR facilities provide a sustainable funding source

for public schools and housing? Not even close.

The politics of trying to cut everyone down to the level of the lowest common denominator has got to stop. MWR vs. public schools isn't an either/or situation. The United States has the highest per capita GDP in the world. We can afford to have both. It's simply a matter of fixing priorities on things that actually have a material effect on the nation's finances: making the tax system more progressive and trimming the defence programs that are more expensive and of much less use than MWR -- unnecessary weapons programs with ridiculous price tags and the occupation of Iraq.

If we sold the land these golf courses are on we might be able to fund the occupation for a few days. The outrage is misdirected.

[northshore]

7. Cheap shot if you ask this veteran.

So I guess that this is the face of the 21st Century Democratic party.

Taking pot shots at anything that our servicemembers can do other than bleed?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. No it is not

the fringes of any organiztion have this

There are blind spots and some people do have them

Welcome to DU

[Joanne98]

16. Boy. What a response. Golf courses must be sacred territory

[northshore]

33. Sacred?

No, it's not the golf courses. It's the fact that you have this nitwit idea that members of the armed forces should not be allowed to have any recreation other that dodging IEDs and shooting at insurgents.

They have bowling alleys, tennis and racquetball courts, pools, gyms, basketball courts, soccer pitches, lakes and streams to fish in, places to hunt, photo darkrooms, an extensive department store operation, and loads of other stuff to do on their off time and for the benefit of their families. And it doesn't cost you a dime. It is under non appropriated funds, which means that it has to generate it's own income. It gets no tax dollars to operate.

You are misplacing your anger at the policy of the present administration towards the military who swear allegiance to the Constitution for your benefit.

You present yourself today as a small, sorry person. If this is the case, you have little sympathy from me. I have no room for it with the disgust I have for what you have implied here today. If you were simply mistaken about the nature of funding of military recreational facilities, just say so and lets move on.

Golf courses sacred? No. But the fact that these young men and women are willing to take up our cause, no matter how temporarily misguided, makes their sacrifice sacred. And your attcks today are grossly offensive.

[hfojvt]

49. funding for operation is one thing

what about funding for construction? Do the profits pay for that? Why does the military need so many of its own facilities instead of supporting the local facilities? Are these facilities all in foreign countries, or are they at my local base too?

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. They are at your local base

every bse has MWR facilities.

And they are built inside the base.

[hfojvt]

74. I should have known that

since I did play racquetball on my lunchbreak once. I don't remember paying for it though. Maybe the soldiers picked up my share because they needed a fourth. Raquetball where I work is $2.5 an hour, so 1/4 of that would be next to nothing, particularly in 1986. But my workplace is not self-supporting. Close, perhaps, but it is funded by the city.

[treestar]

61. So uncalled-for

So you joined to become a member of a privileged elite that gets to boss the rest of us around?

Go play at the same golf courses as anybody else has to who doesn't have one on the job.

[benddem]

26. That is really obnoxious

people in the military work long long hours. Civilians would never put up with any of it. Training in the winter in the mud and snow. Wearing 80 pounds of gear. Your attitude is really uncalled for. When the troops get time off they can recreate. Places like the edelweiss aren't free.
If you don't think people in the military sacrifice...join up. You make me sick

[Joanne98]

63. So they should have RESORTS?

the edelweiss isn't free, well thank god for that.

[northshore]

10. Shame on you.

This is the first time I have been disgusted to be in any way involved with this board.

Go find something else to do with your apparently ample free time. I'll be somewhere else, and thats where MY contributions will go.

[Earth_First]

15. This veteran says "shame on you."

I am glad that the military serves it's service members with activities such as these. Without these services, the military would have been a certain deplorable experience. It was this time that we looked forward to during FTX and other training exercises. The military is not ALL conditioning and training.

[Joanne98]

19. LOL! I'm just trying to balance the budget.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. What part of SELF SUPPORTING

are you purposely MISSING?

By the way, should we also close the PX system? Rummy would agree with you, never mind IT IS SELF SUPPORTING

Unfrigging amazing...

[Earth_First]

23. Iraq is costing 1.3 billion a week...

try balancing that.

[Joanne98]

28. I think we should pull out. How's that for balancing.

[Shipwack]

29. While you're balancing the budget, I suggest

I hear that some enlisted men actually have their own room,,, What is this, the Hilton? Why aren't they in tents?

Let's try getting rid of VA hospitals, prosthetic limbs, and rehabilitation therapy for soldiers that have lost limbs... How many hospitals does the military need? After all, it is their own dumb fault for getting blown up by an IED.

"balancing the budget" my fucking ass.

and fuck "LOL" too.

[hfojvt]

53. how does golf courses - which are typically recreation for rich people

equate to everything else?

[Joanne98]

133. VA hospitals and golf courses aren't the same thing.

[aikoaiko]

21. make birdies -- not war.

;-)

I suggest the original poster lighten up a little. I hear they get cable TV too.

[sarge43]

44. Yeah, and libraries and movie theaters, too. n/t

[sarge43]

27. Where is your cite for the "flying from country to country just to

play golf"? As for the 200 dollar toilets, a household toilet wouldn't function on a submarine; specialized plumbing required and that cost a few bucks. Of course, the other have{sic} could live knee deep in shit and save you a couple of dollars per annum.

For the record, most of the other half live in conditions you couldn't endure for a day.

[Joanne98]

32. Okay. Maybe I should attack ALL golf courses....

How's this. Let's nationalize ALL golf courses all over the world and make them homeless shelters?

[Captain Hilts]

36. Flushing a toilet on a submarine is really exciting! nt

[Shipwack]

62. Yes it is... but not as much anymore...

Nowadays they are like regular flush toilets, for the most part...

Back in my day, when I was just a nub looking for grape juice on my USS Holland qual card, you had to:

1) Do your business

2) turn on the water spigot to start water going into the bowl

3) with you -other- hand pull this gigantic 3 foot long lever to rotate the ball valve on the bottom of the bowl

4) wait until everything had gone through the hole in the ball valve (maybe manually agitating things to make them fit through...)

5) rotate the lever back to its starting postion

6) after a -little- water accumulated in the bottom of the bowl (to seal in any odors escaping), quickly turn off the water so as to not waste it.

And heaven help you if you rotated the ball valve while they were pressurizing the tank to push out wastes...

A picture and description of an "old school" submarine toilet.

[wakeme2008]

40. in the 70s the Col I work for out of the Pentagon used to fly to Bermuda

to play Golf and get enough hours for FLIGHT PAY

[Joanne98]

45. Must be nice. You know only 15% of Americans even have a passport.

Most Americans are to poor to travel I guess.

[sarge43]

76. Was he on flight status?

If so, then he had to fly X number of hours per month to keep his rating and if he was rated, then he got flight pay whether he flew to Thule, Bermuda or wherever. If and if, so he played golf while he was waiting for the line crew to turn his aircraft around.

[wakeme2008]

85. he was head of a computer section and the only flights he did

was to Bermuda.

Was it legal, yes was it right NO IMHO

[Captain Hilts]

89. The Fight Pay thing is a real racket. nt

[sarge43]

AF kept as many pilots as possible rated as a reserve.

It could pull the rating and that would be a million or so in training and experience costs per pilot down the potty. Further, jock would probably put in his discharge request and go fly for some airline. Or keep him on status at o/a a hundred per month and use him in another job. Back then less than 10% of the AD AF were pilots, so on balance not exactly wasteful.

Where was he flying out of?

[wakeme2008]

119. I believe Andrews he was attached to the Pentagon

but worked a little north of it :)

[sarge43]

124. Well, semi-gaming, but he could have been flying out to March

:shrug:

[Shipwack]

39. Actuallly, $200 dollars fora toilet is a bargain...

compared to what a basic one costs...

And it's "corps", not "core"

And as much as I despise officers in general, the majority of them (O1-O4 paygrades) aren't making all that much, considering they are almost all college graduates... Of course, enlisted people are making less, but that's another rant....

[hfojvt]

67. AFAIK, O3's are making pretty good money

Of course, I am a double college grad. The only time I ever made really good money, was when I was working for DOD.

I think it was a $200 toilet SEAT that was the big story, and that was back in the 1980s when $200 would buy a little bit more than it does now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. It was 400

and by the by, that is how some of the black ops are funded, the ones nobody speaks about.

It also had a 600 hammer, the toilet seats, some actually run you that much, submarines for instance

[wakeme2008]

42. One of the MAIN REASONS military posts up North are being closed and

the ones in the South are expanding is the Good Old Gulf Boys Network....

[davidwparker]

52. No. There's never too much self-indulgence. Greed has no end either.

[treestar]

57. I didn't know it had any

That does seem like a little much. There would be golf courses outside the base.

[valerief]

58. What stuff do they have for people who don't like to play golf? You

know, like, the soldiers who've had their legs or arms blown off?

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Movie theaters, every base has one

libraries

Gymns

All the gamut, the golf course just seems to be the one targetted since it is obvious

Also kids who unfortunately lost limbs, will be taken care off by the VA, which is tax payer funded, and is poorly funded

If they stay in, and some have, that is becuase they will be able to play golf

[Joanne98]

65. I think they have olympic size swimming pools too.

[kiahzero]

73. Yes, yes, get rid of MWR.

We get it. You want to make the troops as miserable as possible.

There's no need to belabor the point.

Edit: Military families get their own bank, too. :P

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. And good services

and good interests on loans too

;-)

[kiahzero]

81. My motorcycle loan is through USAA

What's worse is that I'm not even military - my Dad was active for a while, reserve for a while longer, and is now retired.

I also pay nice low rates on my insurance. :D

[Shipwack]

78. hush kiazero, if you spin her up any more...

She's going to drill herself all the way to China ;)

'sides, I'm not sure about the other services, but Navy Federal Credit Union is open to everyone now, not just members of the military... Much to the consternation of local banks and what not... :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. SHHH

she might have to stand in line with them drity sailors and marines... she may get a heart attack

:-)

[kiahzero]

82. Heh

I'm going for full-on head explody action at this point.

[Shipwack]

71. There is other stuff...

Bowling, the gym, swimming, movie theaters, sight-seeing trips, trips to local attractions or fairly distant attractions, recreation centers that have wide screen TVs for watching sports of DVDs, arcade, video game centers, phone centers to make calls home, computer centers, cook-outs, auto hobby shops, the club (not encouraged as much any more) and sometimes wood working shops. Any sailor soldier, or airman that lives on base or nearby and is bored is because he or she wants to be bored.

Yes, I noticed the "limb blown off" portion of your post, but many of those activities can still be done by someone with a disability. Including playing golf.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

153. If you don't play golf

and I didn't when I was in the Army, there are still some good side benefits, even for "riff-raff" enlisted folk like me.

Besides the usual recreational facilities, I could go to the nearby Air Force base, look at the board of listed flights, inquire about seat availability, and be flying to any country that might be listed on my leave papers. For Free! Maybe a little $ for a box lunch. Uncle Sam flew me free (from a base near Stuttgart) to Madrid, London, Athens, Izmir, others. A great benefit (and really didn't cost anything, the planes were going there anyway).

I didn't re-enlist because there was a possibility that some flight might take me to Vietnam, and that wasn't on my preferred list. Also, I didn't like the way the first cut of rough was maintained on the golf course :)

Regards.

[kiahzero]

155. What kind of planes were you flying on?

I've heard that flying on a C-130 is a rather unpleasant experience.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

156. C-130's are ok

For the price, who's complaining (or who'd listen?). The seats are not real comfy, fold-down seats along the sides of the plane. But at least they're on the inside :)

The one I enjoyed the most was a C-119 (flying boxcar) that was flown with the rear doors left open. I don't think we ever got more than 500 feet above the Aegean, all the way from Athens to Izmir, and a great view out the rear.

The Air Force also has quite a few "Corporate-style" jets. They're very nice, but not as interesting.

[3121guitarist]

66. Jello Biafra once reported...

That the military spends money on thiry thousand! military bands, THIRTY F'ING THOUSAND!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. But we don't have enough buglers for

miltiary funerals to play taps

Yuo figure it out.

[valerief]

69. Hey, they're not gonna welcome our dictator with a DJ.

:argh:

[PaganPreacher]

92. Jello Biafra didn't know what he was talking about.

The Army has 34 active duty bands, 52 in the Army National Guard, and 20 Army Reserve. The Air Force has 12 bands on active duty, and 11 assigned to the Air National Guard. The Navy has 12 bands; the Marine Corps has 12, and the Coast Guard has one.

Totaled, the US Armed Forces have 154 bands, worldwide.

I guess the other 29,846 bands are super-top-secret "Special Bands", whose existence is covered up by the government.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[Joanne98]

84. I found a military golf course search engine on a MWR site..

did you know we have a golf course in Mosul?

Soldiers tee off at Iraq's first PGA golf course
The Mission -- Golf
By Spc. Joshua Hutcheson


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Contributed photo/Spc. Joshua Hutcheson
1st Lt. Jesse White, shop officer, 426th Forward Support Battalion, 101st Airborne Division, tees off Sept. 11, 2003, at the "TPC at Mosul South Course," a golf course he created to help the soldiers of Q-West relax during their time off. The course has six holes, ranging from 50 to 250 yards. Most of the holes are par-3, and besides the normal hazards found on a golf course there are a few additions particular to the environment, such as old military equipment.








When a 101st Airborne Division soldier decided to build a one-hole golf course near Mosul, he set in motion a chain of events that would draw the interest of everyone from his battalion commander to the PGA, which sent over supplies and gave official recognition for this sandy Tournament Players Club addition.

MOSUL, Iraq -- The days can be long and hard at the Qayyarah West Airfield in northern Iraq, full of dust and camel spiders. And what relaxes a person after a hot sweaty day better than the TPC at Mosul South Course, the first golf course in Iraq?

1st Lt. Jesse White, shop officer, Bravo Company, 426th Forward Support Battalion, 101st Airborne Division, created the course in May. In an area full of waist-high dirt piles and holes big enough to fall into, White made a course 150 yards long, with just one hole. His idea was to have a place where he could relax and get in a few practice swings when possible.

But one hole wasn't enough, soon other people wanted to play games there, and for that more holes would be needed.

"As it turned out, the new battalion commander was a golfer," White said. "He asked me what the chances were of expanding it."

The chances were good. Soon two more holes were added to the makeshift course. Then, after less than a month, three more holes were added, to make the course a total of six holes, "ranging from 50 to 250 yards," White said.

It was there that construction halted, only because they ran out of room.

"We'd like to add three more holes but we're out of space, if you can believe that out in the desert," White quipped.

As for it being the first course in the country, White claimed to have looked on the Internet to find others.

"I researched it, and as far as I know it's the only golf course in Iraq," he said.


At least it's not in the green zone!



http://www.armymwr.com/portal/recreation/golfcourses/#germany

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. And yuor point is?

so yuo think troops should only kill, be killed and that's it?

By the way, do you really want people who make oh 500 a month and access to the guns frustrated with nowwhere to go?

Gee golly, you and Rummy the Dummy do HAVE something in common, he didn't get it either

[Joanne98]

91. Would you quit attacking me please.....

I want to know more about this subject and you're not being helpful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. We gave you the info

and it comes down to MWR is self funded, and from a different NON GOVERNMENT account.

that is what it comes down to, distilled to its purest form

[DocSavage]

98. Maybe you

can find something a little more current. You have already shown that you do not know your butt from a hole in the ground re the military rec system. Hey, did you know that Shades of Green at Disney World is a MWR facility, how about the castle in Germany. Do a search and find out how many camping facilities the DOD operates too. Right about now your head should be exploding. Guess what. I always ran into more enlisted folks at these places than O's. But then again, there are more E's than O's. Never got bumped for a T-time at any course because of my rank. Oh, how about all the recreational boats that DOD owns, and campers that you can rent.

I know that after being in the field for 30-40 days, coming home it was fun to take the family to a rec facility for a long weekend, but then again, I am sure that you have never been yanked out of your house on 4 hours notice and flown half way around the world before either. How about sleeping 4 high in a berthing compartment for 8 months at a time.

And, if the new congress thinks that cutting DOD funding by eliminating MWR facilities, the will have one upset constituent on their hands. Anyone that spends time in uniform deserves all the perks they can get.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Remember it was the Democrats in congress

and the hue and cry from many of us, that kept Rummy the dummy from even touchgn the MWR system in 2003, and Hawaii basically redesignating Fort Durussy into a park upon sale, if DOD sold it... helped

But no Democrat will touch the MWR, well unless she goes to Congress that is

[Joanne98]

126. Are you saying the Disney and the military have merged?

http://www.shadesofgreen.org/home.html

I'm really glad you mentioned that. How are these things structured anyway? From what I understand so far MWR is a non-for-profit organization but it uses publically owned land. Military bases are owned by the government. But MWR/Disney? I think we are getting a little BLURRED here.

http://www.shadesofgreen.org/links.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Free clue to the clueless

Disney has discounted tickets sold through MWR for service members

They even have a miliary apreciation day allowing service members free access, so does Knotts Berry Farm

Oh and the geeatest shocker, they also have discounted tickets for sale at MWR offices for movie theaters and other at town entertainment

Dinsey has given support to the military for years... if not outright decades.

You seem to have a really big chip on that shoulder of yours

By the way, care to tell me how an E-5 could take his or her family to epcot Center on his pay? Oh and stay at the local resort

[Joanne98]

182. Since when did poor people stay at resorts?

Silly me. I thought resorts were for the wealthy.

[kiahzero]

185. Congratulations on missing the point.

The point of the program is to allow military families (which don't make a lot of money) to do things that would be out of their reach economically.

[Joanne98]

88. Camp Zama Japan.... Check out the dress code.

Camp Zama http://www.armymwr.com/portal/recreation/golfcourses/golfmap.asp#japan
Course Name: Zama Golf Course

Installation: Camp Zama

Number of Holes: 18 Holes

Golf Services Available:
PGA Professional
Full Service Restaurant
Pro-shop, Rental Clubs

Description: Newcomers to Camp Zama are surprised by the excellent golfing facility available on post to all active duty military personnel, DOD civilian personnel and family members of military/civilian personnel. Since golf is played year round, the Camp Zama Golf Course has a very active participation / tournament program. The Golf Club (a non-appropriated fund activity) has over 350 annual members. The club features an 18 hole course measuring up to 6225 yards. It is considered by most golfers to be an extremely challenging course. A driving range is available just below the 5th hole.

Gate Access: Authorized Military use only

Tee Time: Call for Tee Times 263-4975

Dress Code: Male golfers must wear collared shirts with the exception of the new style mock turtle neck short sleeve shirts made by golf clothing manufacturers (e.g. Nike). Shoes must be either golf or tennis style. No hard soled or waffle bottom shoes or boots will be permitted. Ladies shirts can either be sleeveless or collarless but not both. Jeans are allowed. Cutoffs, swimwear and running shorts are not allowed.

Nearby Attractions:
Mt. Fuji
Tokyo
Kamakura- a small city full of temples and historic treasures
Nikko – city and national park
Call the local ITR office for additional information DSN 263-4671 or 263-4505 Commercial: 011-81-311-763-4671

Camp Zama, Japan

I guess Nike is now the required clothing for the troops.

[Captain Hilts]

93. ALL golf courses have a dress code. Jeans are prohibited on all courses nt

[tammywammy]

95. No, Nike isn't required clothing

Is gives Nike as an example of that type of shirt, hence the "e.g." before the word Nike.

[Joanne98]

94. Somebody said the golf courses were open to the public.

Ft Lee isn't....

http://www.armymwr.com/portal/recreation/golfcourses/golfmap.asp#korea

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. MWR facilites are open to

DOD Personnel, and their dependents

In rare cases to DOD Civilian contractors or other US Government employees.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I have access, my hubby RETIRED after 20 years, my sis has access, my brother in law RETIRED after 20 years.

That is who has access.

[Joanne98]

102. Retired after twenty years? Damn....

We civilians don't even get retired anymore. I should have joined the Army.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Perhaps you should

after all we live high on the hog, according to you

Oh and we also get retired pay, better known as retainer pay. My husband can be recalled at any moment into active duty... but I am sure you knew that.

By the way any Government employee, civilian or military, who works for 20 GETS that retirement pay. Perhaps you should also check how much retired congresscritters, senators and presidents get too

But I am sure you knew that

[tammywammy]

105. Actually, according to the website that Joanne gave

There are quite a few golf courses open to the public.

[Joanne98]

99. The Army has two premier golf courses on Oahu, Hawaii....

Description: The Army has two premier golf courses on the island of Oahu, but without the premium price. All with lush, tropical settings, you are sure to enjoy yourself on any one of our beautiful courses. Located just out the gate from Wheeler Army Airfield and minutes from Schofield Barracks, Leilehua Golf Course is a secluded treasure. Set back from the hustle and bustle of busy life, Leilehua is surrounded by magnificent Eucalyptus and Palm Trees. This full 18-hole golf course is a favorite with the locals and military alike. The Nagorski Golf Course at Fort Shafter is a nine-hole course - just right for perfecting your game. Visit the Pro Shop for all the latest clothes and equipment to make you look like a winner. Grab a bite to eat before or after teeing off at Mulligan's located next door to the pro shop. Inexpensive lunch specials, breakfast, and sandwiches make this a great spot to relax and enjoy the scenery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Head explode

and the Navy has one too, and the AF has another one

Happy now?

Did I mention the camping facilities on the Island of Oahu or the camping facilities on the big Island?

Oh and don't forget the Hale Koa and Fort Durussy.

[Joanne98]

104. I have to ask? Do you golf?

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. No, does that matter?

I undersand why the MWR facilities are there... FULLY

As you said, perhaps you should join up, it will make it plainly clear why they are needed

[Joanne98]

111. How about tennis?

http://www.mwr.nps.navy.mil/aboutfac/athletic.htm

The NWR has tennis tournaments too...

BTW I haven't been able to find polo yet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Nope

and no they don't have polo

but the local base has cut rate stables to house horses of military members... does that count?

[DocSavage]

113. Maybe

I need to get on a Space A and go over for the weekend and hit a few. Oh, you do know about space A right?

[AngryAmish]

109. Yes it is necessary

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

114. Too many golf courses not enough brothels.

I mean if you want to give the troops what they really want.

Unless things have changed dramatically since I spent my 4 years serving the bosses, I didn't hear much talk, or interest in golf. On the other hand there was unceasing talk about the desirability of naughty women.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Since the courses were opened to enlisted men and women

there are waiting lines at these courses.

As to the other one... the military has a love \ hate relationship as you know.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. I'll bet the lines would be a bit longer for the brothels.

And, a lot of golfers would suddenly find more entertaining things to do than chase a little ball around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. You really do not want to have

fully sanctioned military brothels.

There are many reasons why not... and many historical models, for example the Japanese has a system where they used Korean during WW II... you truly want to go down that road?

Now on a far more general statement, we should legalize and regulate the world's oldest profession. It would be good for the health of everybody involved, but in our puritan society speaking this way can get proponents in trouble.

[Joanne98]

141. Why not authorize military brothels. It's so profitable....

Just think what the quarterly earnings would look like.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. You do know how these Japanese

brothels were run. If you want to have that kind of a "facility" I guess you are also in favor of white slavery and other forms of human traficking

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

210. You do have a knack of extrapolating nonexeistent corollaries.

No, I don't advocate military brothels. Nor do I advocate the idea that American GI's are clean cut boys longing to embrace a golf club or ping-pong paddle in lieu of what GI's since the beginning of armies have been noted for.

And, by the way, it wasn't just the Japanese who ran brothels stocked with Korean women.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3680/is_199904/ai_n8839351

FICTION WRITERS in Korea have depicted, for half a century, the plight of military prostitutes catering to United States Forces in Korea (USFK), often as a symbol of social ills, but this conspicuous reality has, for the most part, remained outside the consciousness of historians and political theorists until Katharine Moon's work. She gives Korean military prostitution a powerful contemporary historical narrative, which is also rendered in diplomatic terms as a system "that is sponsored and regulated by two governments." The place of Korean military prostitution in history, which, like Mt. Everest, extended an invitation to be climbed, has now been scaled, every inch of the way revealing the callous treatment of women of lower classes by Korean society and domestic and foreign military forces. Moon persuasively demonstrates how both the Korean and U.S. governments used military prostitutes as international bargaining chips. The book makes a valuable contribution to military and diplomatic history, a field which has often been dry and lacking in human dimension.

The context of prospering prostitution in post-WW II Korea in Sex among Allies is all-inclusive; it is of economics, militarism, colonialism, racism, sexual politics, and tribalism. Moon's detailed descriptions reveal the passive and helpless state of individual prostitutes caught in a web of national and international diplomacy. The Korean government and the U.S. military, effectively working together for the first time in the seventies, managed Korean "camptown" affairs, which they had neglected since 1945. In the early seventies racial tension in the U.S. military was becoming as explosive as the spread of VD. The drama was being carried into the camptowns just outside U.S. bases, and the American military was not able to control it. Some form of cooperation between the U.S. military and the Korean government became necessary, particularly during the Nixon administration's move to withdraw from Asia throughout the seventies, a policy the Korean military regime greatly feared. The author painstakingly documents the circumstances of this joint "Purification Movement" in camptowns. Her documentation of interstate policy making illustrates how the prostitutes' limited power over their own lives was further reduced. However, military prostitutes in the clean-up campaign became international commodities used by the policy makers of both governments as well as brothel owners, their sex not a resource but an instrument that was used to ease racial tension and the rampant VD among the soldiers. As Moon concludes, "The control of camptown women's bodies and sexual health was integral to improving deteriorated USFK-ROK relations in the early years of the Nixon Doctrine" (p. 103) .
Advertisement

Moon's answer to her own question, "How is prostitution political?"requires elevating prostitutes to "actors," political players, in the context of interaction between foreign governments. They become political when conniving politicians use them in order to remain in power. Her narrative makes it clear that military prostitution contributes to international bargaining, as an inanimate mass of oil might be used to strengthen a political bargaining position. As she says, "Specifically, the Korean government intended to transform these women from "bad ambassadors" to "good ambassadors" by forcing them to accommodate the USFK's attempts at promoting nondiscriminatory behavior toward black GIs and strict VD control (p. 13). Under this new situation, in which prostitutes were more strictly controlled in order to suit the bargaining governments' needs, they became "actors" in international negotiations.

Copyright University of British Columbia Spring 1999

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. So yuo are telling me that this never happened

ok.

And that we should add these services to MWR.

Okie dokie.

By the way, it did happen, the Japanese did use forced prostitution. They are only an example... and they are not the first force in history to do that... this woudl be silly

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

148. The only thing I wanted out of the military was out of the military.

I was merely pointing out the the utter hypocrisy of the military in supplying "our troops" with the questionable pleasures of golf while ignoring what most troops really want. And, the absurd idea that "the troops" are made up of boyscout like nice kids who would rather "fight for their country" or play games rather than do what "troops" have been itching to do since they first picked up rocks to whack the designated "enemy" the bosses wanted them to whack.

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. You know

here is the problem

Some troops want to do that, others do not... so how is your big fucking paint everybody with a brush?

By the wide not everybody belongs in the armed forces, nor did I say they were boy scouts.

I pointed out what MWR does, and what it does not.

[Joanne98]

123. That's a whole nuther thread. lol

[Joanne98]

116. Fort Bragg riding stables.....

http://www.fortbraggmwr.com/sportsrec/ridingstables/ridingstables.htm

And they DO have a polo field.

An ice skating rink too...

http://www.fortbraggmwr.com/virtualtours/cleland/ClelandIceRink/index.html

[tammywammy]

118. I think you missed something here:

http://www.fortbraggmwr.com/sportsrec/ridingstables/ridingstables.htm

Smith Lake Riding Stables

Click here for the new Smith Lake Riding Stables brochure.

Phone: [phone]
Location: Building Q5340, Smith Lake Road
Hours:
Thursdays - Mondays
Summer: 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
Winter: 8:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m.
Open to the Public

So it's open to the public, it's not paid for with any government funds and it's completely self-sufficient.

I don't get why you're so upset?

Edited to add: I looked all over that page and I didn't see anything about polo either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Because if we got rid of MWR there would be so much

more money accessible to civilians... :sarcasm:

She is upset because troops have services available that theoretically should be available to everybody.

Wait, many of them are. My local city has a municipal pool system open to the public... then there is the public library system.

wait, there are also PUBLIC golf courses that have long lines but charge 1\4 of the private courses.

Perhaps she should look for some of these things in her own town and be pleasantly surprised that they are there.

Towns that don't have them, well if people don't pay service fees, you cannot expect public services.

[Joanne98]

122. Polo field here....

John L. Throckmorton Library
Location: Building 1-3346, Randolph St. (across the street from the polo field)
Phone: (910) 396-BOOK
Hours: 11am-9pm Monday - Thursday
1-5pm Friday - Sunday
Closed: Federal Holidays

I haven't found any advertising yet. It's must be for officers only!

I'm not upset, I'm way to synical for that. You know, public and private partnerships PPPS are not really self-supporting.

This type of finacing is pretty complicated. A job for the Center of Public Integrity, I would guess. I point is that the Pentagon has built a alternative universe. But you have to understand that the average American who bitches constantly about FOOD STAMPS for the poor, has little knowledge of how money is really spent. It's called guns or butter and it looks like we have a case of BOTH here.

You also have to remember the it was the Pentagon who LOST two trillion dollars. So looking at how they spend their money is neccessary. Especially since the country is broke thanx to 25 years of tax cuts for the rich.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. You also know that the E-1 to E-4

who has a family IS ON FOOD STAMPS.

The MWR system has been around since at least WW II and it has been self sufficient, due to Congressional intervention and mandate, since the 1970s

Yes it is a matter of butter and guns, but you are looking at the wrong place to save money.

you want to cut military spending, it is not at MWR where you are going to save money. Rummy the dummy believed that too. You want to save money, you need to cut on Weapons Systems, R&D, and other incidentals of having a military. By the way, in your attacks of the MWR system you are paralleling the attacks on the middle class by the GOP, congratulations.

MWR is not where you will save your money, which is what we keep telling you, but you are quite bullheaded about it.

As to the taxing structure, yep that is a problem, exactly what does that have to do with facilities that improve the quality of life for troops (and for those who have families for their families) when they are not deployed, training or otherwise in military operations?

Again, perhaps you should volunteer for a standard tour, and them you just may get it.

[hardtravelin]

127. We have a "polo field" here at FT Benning...

but it's just a large open field that is being utilized for a youth soccer area (kids from military families).

I suspect there are few if any "active" polo fields.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Welcome to DU

and thank you for your service by the way

[hardtravelin]

188. Thanks!!

We're spreading...

[Joanne98]

135. Not yet anyway.

[hardtravelin]

189. huh?

[Telly Savalas]

166. Then sign up.

If you think the military lifestyle is so cushy, why don't you join?

Sheesh. Your posts in this thread resemble the rhetoric of conservatives complaining about how good people on welfare have it.

[sweetheart]

129. Here's a picture of gratuitous waste

This is south of I-40 in New Mexico just south of Albuquerque.

You can see the golf course on the right, etched in to the desert, clearly very
cheap and natural to maintain given the local fauna. This photograph is testament
to the heinous waste of the military complex.

On the south of the photo is a huge underground bunker full of nuclear weapons and
on the top left of the image is a massive wooden structure built in a hole to test
aircraft for EMP forces, from space, you can see the shadows of the antennas.

I agree, but its not just the golf that is the waste....

[Joanne98]

136. Did you get that picture from google earth?

I'm just learning to use it. That isn't area 51 is it?

[sweetheart]

137. yes, a screen snap from google earth

To find the same thing, go to the intersection of
the I25 and I40 in new mexico, and then go to the
southeast of that. You'll see a huge airstrip there,
and if you keep going to the right, you can see that
golf course from 100 miles up.

[Joanne98]

140. Thankyou!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

157. If there's a waste here ...

I would agree that maintaining so many nuclear weapons is a waste.

But as long as we station troops in apparently god-forsaken wastelands like your picture, it doesn't hurt to have a golf course so they don't go bonkers from boredom.

I might also agree that eighteen holes is overkill. A small facility like that could have gotten by with a nine-hole course.

Neat picture, thanks.

[kiahzero]

158. They could provide other forms of recreation.

I do think building golf courses in the middle of the desert is more than a tad absurd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

199. Yep but Vegas does it as well

and those are not truly open to the locals if you get my drift

:-)

[Joanne98]

138. The AAFES funds 67% of MWR's budget...

Tax-deductibility of donations
Army and Air Force Exchange Service
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Army and Air Force Exchange Service (or AAFES) is an agency of the United States Department of Defense. Its mission is to provide quality merchandise and services of necessity and convenience to authorized customers at uniformly low prices, and to generate reasonable earnings to supplement appropriated funds for the support of United States Army and Air Force Morale, Welfare and Recreation (MWR) programs. These contributions to the Soldier and Airman and their families make AAFES a major non-pay benefit to customers. AAFES is headquartered in Dallas, Texas and is commanded by a Major General. The position of AAFES commander rotates between the Army and Air Force. The Navy operates the equivalent Navy Exchange (NEX), while the Marine Corps operates the Marine Corps Exchange (MCX).

AAFES is charged with generating reasonable earnings, but returns every cent to the customer. The only congressionally appropriated money spent in AAFES comes in the form of utilities and transportation of merchandise to overseas exchanges and for salaries of U.S. military personnel assigned to AAFES. A non-appropriated fund activity (NAF) of the Department of Defense, AAFES funds 98% of its operating budget, including civilian employee salaries, inventory investments, utilities and capital investments for equipment, vehicles and facilities, from the sale of merchandise, food and services to customers.

Roughly 67% of AAFES earnings are paid to MWR programs. As of 2004, $2.24 billion had been contributed by AAFES over a 10-year period to the Army and Air Force to spend on quality of life improvements for Soldiers, Airmen and their families--libraries, sports programs, swimming pools, youth activities, tickets and tour services, bowling centers, hobby shops, music programs, outdoor facilities and unit functions.

In Fiscal Year 2003, AAFES earned $355.3 million from direct sales (retail, food, and vending/services), finance revenue, and concessions on revenues of $7.9 billion. MWR and services programs received $229.7 million, which was distributed as follows:

U.S. Army, $138.1 million
U.S. Air Force, $79.4 million
U.S. Marine Corps, $11.9 million
U.S. Navy, $.3 million
The per capita dividend in 2003 was $262.72 for every Soldier and Airman.

In addition to funding MWR programs, AAFES earnings are used to build new stores or renovate existing facilities without expense to the federal government. Funds to construct these new or replacement facilities come entirely from sales of merchandise and services.

AAFES is also a major source of employment for members of the U.S. Army and Air Force family. Approximately 31% of the 47,323 AAFES associates are military family members. Many associates have worked for years with AAFES as they moved from one installation to another with their military sponsors. Another 1.9% of associates are military members who work part time in exchanges during their off duty hours.

AAFES operates thousands of facilities worldwide; AAFES has more than 12,000 facilities in more than 35 countries and in all 50 states. These include 3,150 retail facilities of which 205 are main stores on Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps installations around the world.

In September 2006, the largest PX (Post Exchange) in the world partially opened on Fort Campbell, Kentucky. It is slated to be fully finished and operational by January 1st, 2007. This project will construct a 165,000 square foot (SF) expansion to the existing 107,400 SF shopping center. The end position will be 164,000 SF sales area, 18,800 SF food court with 458 seats, expansion of both food concepts and concession operations.

On its website, AAFES states its business aim is "to serve Soldiers, Airmen and their families around the world."


See also
Base exchange

External links
Official site
AAFES Controversy
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_and_Air_Force_Exchange_Service"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_and_Air_Force_Exchange_Service

It looks like they've started their own country. Sales of merchanise, food and services. Sounds like to me they need a business license.

[Joanne98]

139. Oh I get it now. The Pentagon has created it's own Walmart....

And the "Walmart for troops" funds the MWR!

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=162

[kiahzero]

144. Yes, it's part of how the low wages are justified

Military families get by on astonishingly low wages because of the numerous benefits that come from being the military, including, yes, the Post / Base Exchange and the Commissary.

Sadly, Commissary privileges aren't one of the things that military brats get to keep, so I can't go anymore. :(

[Joanne98]

177. Well. Why don't we RAISE their wages and shut down stores.

It's not like we live in the dark ages. Isn't there a Walmart on every corner?

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joanne98]

142. I have a stupid question....

If the military stores sell products to fund MWR. Where do they buy their products from? Are they buying products from countries that they may be invading some day? China for instance?

[kiahzero]

145. I have a smart question:

Why are you so against benefits for military families?

[Joanne98]

149. Are you in the military?

[kiahzero]

150. No, as I said, I'm a military brat.

My Dad was an active duty Air Force officer for a while, then reserves for quite a while longer, and now is retired. My girlfriend was a reservist for a little while, and I have several other friends in the service.

[Joanne98]

143. AAFES financial structures

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2006-10,RNWE:en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=AAFES+financial+structure&spell=1

[Joanne98]

146. Since this is my thread, I'm going to do this.....

If you think that you can say the golf courses or MWR is self supporting. You are completely deluded. Your need to be a genuis to figure out this crap. Look at it. It's HUGE!1!1! I can't believe I actually feel sorry for Rummy! What a friggin nightmare.

Financial Management Plan (will be updated in 2003)




The Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation
Financial Management Plan
Part 1: Development Process

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Background
MWR VISION
MWR STRATEGIC ACTION PLAN
MWR FINANCIAL OBJECTIVES

Army MWR Funding
APPROPRIATED FUNDS
NONAPPROPRIATED FUNDS
STRUCTURE OF NAF INSTRUMENTALITIES

MWR Organization and Financial Responsibilities
Army MWR Financial Planning Process
CFSC PLANNING REQUIREMENTS
NEW INITIATIVES
KEY ASSUMPTIONS

Execution of the MWR Financial Plan
KEY FINANCIAL INDICATORS
MANAGEMENT ACTIONS
UNANTICIPATED REVENUE

Responsibility for This Plan
Appendix A
References
Appendix B
Tiered Responsibilities
Appendix C
Description of Critical Financial Indicators
Appendix D
Explanation of Terms
Appendix E
Acronyms

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 1 of The Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation Financial Management Plan is a manual describing the process used to develop the Army's MWR financial management plan. It discusses the organization of and key financial indicators for the interacting components in the total MWR system, and it articulates the MWR financial management responsibilities, at various levels within the Army, for safeguarding appropriated funds (APF) and nonappropriated funds (NAF). This manual also specifies options for the appropriate actions to take should circumstances necessitate changes to spending priorities or availability of resources. References required for the development of the financial plan are listed in Appendix A, and tiered responsibilities are defined in Appendix B. Appendix C describes the critical financial indicators, and Appendix D explains terms. Acronyms used throughout this manual are defined in Appendix E.

Following the process described in Part 1 results in a series of guidance, financial, and assessment documents. Found in Part 2 of The Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation Financial Management Plan, this series of documents constitutes the MWR financial plan. Part 2 is maintained, and periodically revised, by Headquarters, Community and Family Support Center (CFSC). The bridge between this Army-wide financial plan and individual installation strategic business plans is provided by major Army command (MACOM) strategic action plans. Use of this comprehensive system of plans will enable the Army to maintain a strong financial position for its MWR programs.

BACKGROUND
MWR Vision
The Army MWR strategic vision for the 21st century is derived from the strategic vision for the entire Army and complements the Army's vision for installations. It contributes to the readiness of Army forces by providing MWR programs that enhance the quality of life of America's Army.

The Army MWR Vision for the 21st Century states the strategic vision as follows:

America's Army, committed and ready, is served by responsive MWR programs that enhance quality of life, contribute to communities of excellence, enrich living and working environments, and foster a sense of community.

MWR Strategic Action Plan
The Army's MWR Board of Directors (BOD) developed a strategy to ensure that MWR programs continue to meet the institutional and individual needs of America's Army. The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan is the vehicle to implement that strategy. It outlines actions (including assignment of the responsible agency, delivery date, principal coordination, and range of costs) necessary to achieve goals and objectives that are key to transforming the MWR program and shaping the MWR vision.

The guiding principle behind MWR financial management actions is stated as follows: "The MWR system will be managed consistent with business-like practices."

The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan lists six Army MWR goals. Goals One and Four are central to the accomplishment of the Army MWR financial objectives:

¨ Strategic Goal Number One: Corporate leadership provides vision, policy, and direction to plan and operate MWR programs.

¨ Strategic Goal Number Four: The financial management function provides management with financial systems, policies, and controls for accountable, auditable, and properly resourced programs.

MWR Financial Objectives
The strategic financial management goal for Army MWR is supported by three general objectives:

¨ Develop guidance and implement policies that meet MWR requirements.

¨ Improve budget planning and management.

¨ Optimize APF and NAF financial management systems and structures for MWR.

APF and NAF operating, capital, and cash budgets are developed in support of the funding authorizations identified in Department of Defense Instruction (DoDI) 1015.10, Programs for Military Morale, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR). Programming and budgeting cover two time periods:

¨ Long-range (beyond 5 years). Programming guidance is provided in the Program Objective Memorandum Program Development Instructions (Document 1 of Part 2) and in The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan.

¨ Short and mid range (1 to 5 years). Programming guidance is provided in the Program Budget Guidance for appropriated funds (Document 2) and in the Annual NAF Budget Letter of Instructions (Document 3).

The resulting budgets represent the detailed financial plans that support the basic objectives outlined above, DoD and Army MWR fiscal standards, and local adaptations of The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan. At the major Army command (MACOM) and installation levels, the mechanisms to coordinate these financial plans with The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan are the MACOM and installation MWR strategic action and business plans. Close coordination of these plans is imperative.

ARMY MWR FUNDING
The MWR program is divided into three categories: Category A-Mission-Sustaining Programs; Category B-Community Support Programs; and Category C-Revenue-Generating Programs. DoD specifies how programs are categorized in DoDI 1015.10. Generally, functions that are related directly to mission readiness, such as libraries and physical fitness centers, are in Category A. Category B represents programs that satisfy the basic physiological and psychological needs of military service members and their families. These programs encompass the community support systems that, to the extent possible, make installations temporary hometowns for a mobile military population. Examples of Category B programs are arts and crafts, outdoor recreation, child development, and youth programs. Category C programs reflect MWR business programs that are highly desirable as a means of providing recreational activity as well as improving morale and generating revenue. Examples include golf, bowling (13 lanes or more), food, beverage, entertainment, and membership clubs.

The programs within the three categories are funded with APF, NAF, or a combination of both funds. The authorization policy regarding APF and NAF support is determined by DoD, while the Congress provides oversight through the House National Security Committee MWR Panel and the Senate Armed Services Committee. Detailed guidance concerning APF and NAF authorizations is outlined in Appendices D and E to Army Regulation (AR) 215-1. Mission-sustaining programs (Category A) are funded primarily by APF. Category B programs are sustained with a mix of APF and NAF, while revenue-generating programs (Category C) are primarily supported through NAF. Figure 1 provides an overview of the MWR funding process.




Notes: AAFES = Army and Air Force Exchange Service; AMWRF = Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation Fund; APF = appropriated funds; ARM = Army Recreation Machine; CRA = Capital Reinvestment Assessment; DOD = Department of Defense; HQDA = Headquarters, Department of the Army; IMWRF = Installation MWR Fund; MACOM = major Army command; MCA = Military Construction, Army; MPA = Military Personnel, Army; NAF = nonappropriated funds; OMA = Operation and Maintenance, Army; and RDT&E = research, development, test, and evaluation.

Figure 1. MWR Funding Process
Appropriated Funds
APF are funds authorized and appropriated by Congress to provide the basic support to MWR. Stringent rules governing the use of APF can be found in Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) 37-1 and AR 215-1. The rationale for APF support is to provide facilities and services that are deemed mission essential or are normally available to a civilian community from the tax base. Operation and Maintenance, Army; Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation; and Military Personnel, Army are the primary APF sources supporting operations. Military Construction, Army supports authorized major construction requirements in accordance with Appendix E of AR 215-1.

Nonappropriated Funds
NAF are funds generated by MWR and family programs (through sales, fees, income from concessions, or charges at local installations) or received through revenue-sharing agreements with the Army and Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES). Additional funds may be generated by public-private ventures. NAF are separate and distinct from monies appropriated by Congress; however, they are entitled to the same protection as funds of the U.S. Treasury. Chapter 3, Section II, of AR 215-1 provides for individual fiduciary responsibility for properly using NAF and preventing waste or loss.

At the local level, each installation MWR director is responsible for programming and managing his or her installation's MWR NAF through a NAF instrumentality (NAFI). NAFIs fund all NAF installation expenses. NAF dollars are provided to installation NAFIs from the following sources:

¨ Operating profits from sales of goods and services and from fees collected for the use of MWR programs (such as golf and bowling) and for family programs (such as child care). Almost all of these revenues are kept by the installation at which they were originally collected. A small percentage is transferred to the Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation Fund (AMWRF).

¨ Installation-generated shares of AAFES dividends and Army Recreation Machine (ARM) profits. A significant portion of AAFES and ARM profits generated at Army installations remains with the installation MWR. The rest goes to the AMWRF.

¨ Army Banking and Investment Fund (ABIF) interest income. The ABIF maintains separate bank accounts for each Army NAFI. Funds not immediately required are invested in a portfolio of secure, short-term U.S. government securities, and interest earned on these funds is paid to depositors.

At Headquarters CFSC, NAF are generated from the following sources:

¨ AAFES dividends and ARM profits.

¨ Capital Reinvestment Assessment (CRA) contributions. Installations are assessed a percentage of their gross MWR revenues to support BOD-approved requirements of the AMWRF and the mandate of Congress to consolidate monies at the Department of the Army level.

¨ ABIF interest income. The AMWRF earns interest on its funds on deposit with the ABIF.

¨ Loans from the ABIF, commercial sources (in accordance with AR 215-1, paragraph 11-9), or other sources.

Structure of NAF Instrumentalities
NAF are programmed and managed through NAFIs, which are Army MWR businesses operating on installations, at MACOMs, and Headquarters, CFSC. Generally, these NAFIs are collectively referred to as Army Operating Funds. Additionally, special-purpose NAFIs, referred to as nondiscretionary funds, have been established to administer certain programs such as NAF employee benefits, retirement, and risk management.

Army Operating Funds are found at three levels:

¨ Installation. Installation commanders manage and operate their NAFIs based on mission requirements, community needs, and MACOM direction. Installation-level plans for operations and minor capital improvements are approved by MACOM commanders.

¨ MACOM. MACOM-level NAFIs may be established to administer MACOM-wide NAF businesses or to fund MACOM NAF administrative budgets. MACOM commanders approve budgets supporting these NAFIs. These budgets-combined with installation-level plans-are submitted annually to CFSC and aggregated for MWR BOD review. Available MACOM funds serve as the primary Successor-In-Interest to their installation NAFIs, in accordance with AR 215-1.

¨ CFSC. CFSC NAF budgets are approved by the Commander, CFSC, in accordance with the overall strategy and direction approved by the MWR BOD. Several operating funds exist at this level:

¨ AMWRF, operated by Commander, CFSC, finances major capital/program investment needs, support services for the Army, and also a portion of the NAF administrative budget for CFSC. It is the ultimate Successor-In-Interest to all Army and selected DoD NAFIs.

¨ Hospitality Directorate Funds exist for administration and capital requirements of the Armed Forces Recreation Centers.

¨ ARM Operations Fund and ARM Trust Fund exist for operating and administering the recreation machine program.

Special-purpose nondiscretionary NAFIs, also administered by CFSC, include the following:

¨ Army Medical/Life Fund, Army Central Insurance Fund, Army NAF Retirement Trust Plan Fund, NAF Employees 401(k) Savings Plan Fund, and Army Billeting Fund exist as nondiscretionary, self-sustaining NAFIs.

¨ ABIF manages the Army's NAF banking and investment services.


MWR ORGANIZATION AND FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES
Within the Army, each echelon-installation, MACOM, and Headquarters, Department of the Army-has a responsibility to ensure that financial plans are prepared, coordinated, and executed in the best interests of the government and military service members. Detailed tiered responsibilities are outlined in Appendix B.

ARMY MWR FINANCIAL PLANNING PROCESS
The Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management (ACSIM) has delegated to CFSC the responsibility for developing Army MWR APF and NAF budget guidance. CFSC works through the MWR BOD committees and in coordination with the Assistant Secretaries of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs and for Financial Management and Comptroller to obtain review and approval of the guidance. This guidance addresses DoD and Army fiscal standards and The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan. On behalf of the BOD, the Commander, CFSC, has the lead responsibility for ensuring that plans are coordinated and support the Army MWR vision. Therefore, MACOM guidance must complement The Army MWR Vision for the 21st Century, The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan, and The Army Morale, Welfare, and Recreation Financial Management Plan.

CFSC Planning Requirements
The CFSC is responsible for establishing and implementing an MWR financial planning process in order to enhance the BOD's ability to exercise its key responsibilities. Each fiscal year, CFSC develops a 5-year financial plan for the AMWRF (Document 4). The 5-year period covers the current fiscal year and the next 4 fiscal years. (For example, the plan developed during FY97 will cover FY97 through FY01.) The financial plan is consistent with all relevant DoD and Department of the Army policies, directives, instructions, and guidance. The sources of funds addressed in each year of the plan should include the following:

¨ CRA revenues (Document 5).

¨ Army share of dividends from AAFES, less any BOD-established adjustments. AAFES provides a 5-year forecast of the Army's share of AAFES dividends. CFSC reviews the 5-year forecast and may use it or substitute its own independent estimate of AAFES funds (Document 6).

¨ Profits from the ARM program. ARM profit projections and internal capital expenditure requirements are constructed in accordance with CFSC guidance (Document 7).

¨ Loans from the ABIF or other sources (Document 8).

¨ ABIF interest income and other sources of funds, if any (Document 3).

The AMWRF 5-Year Financial Plan (Document 4) should cover the following types of fund uses:

¨ NAF major construction

¨ Program investment

¨ Field support and services

¨ All other uses determined by the BOD, including repayment of ABIF and commercial loans (Document 8). The plan displays other uses in sufficient detail to allow effective management and oversight.

Having estimated the sources of AMWRF income and uses (expenses), the final step in preparing the AMWRF 5-year plan is calculating the estimated cash balances carried over to the beginning of each fiscal year covered by the plan.

The MWR BOD reviews and approves the AMWRF 5-year financial plan in coordination with MACOM-approved financial plans. When combined, these plans result in the Army MWR Operating Funds Cash Flow Forecast (Document 9), which provides the cash flow plan for Army-wide MWR NAF. The appropriated fund portion of the Army MWR operating forecast ( Document 10) is developed by CFSC from numerous OSD budget exhibits.

New Initiatives
Financial planning is routinely conducted on a fiscal year basis to provide a standard sequence, from programming through submission to approval, during the annual budget process. New initiatives for expenditures from the AMWRF should be planned, programmed, and endorsed by the appropriate BOD committees and the BOD during the annual budgeting process. Requests are written and include a full description, cost estimate, and justification (normally including a cost/benefit analysis) for each initiative. Requests are formally coordinated for comment from all appropriate and affected organizations. BOD endorsements are formally identified in their meeting minutes and approved by the Secretariat.

In extraordinary circumstances, a new initiative may develop that requires more immediate review and approval to take advantage of a timely opportunity. Although development of advantageous initiatives is encouraged and supported, when circumstances require their consideration outside of the annual planning cycle, special care must be taken to ensure that out-of-cycle initiatives receive timely, accurate, and rigorous review, similar to what they would receive had they been considered during the annual budgeting process. In addition to the routine requirements described above, out-of-cycle requests must identify previously budgeted offsets of a value equal to or greater than the requested initiative.

Requests for review and approval of new initiatives outside the annual budget cycle are prepared for approval at the level required by Army regulations and budget guidelines.

Key Assumptions
In preparing and executing the Army MWR financial plans, the Army makes several key assumptions that limit the degree of variance attributable to unknown factors. Generally, these assumptions can be categorized as either internal or external to the MWR organization.

Internal assumptions include the following:

¨ MWR programs will continue to play a key role in retention and readiness.

¨ Customers will be value driven: price, service, and convenience.

¨ MWR will continue to be called upon to provide service to troops deployed on peacekeeping and humanitarian missions.

¨ Budget and work force projections are current and reasonable.

¨ Major base closures and realignments will occur as planned.

¨ Troop strength will remain stable.

External assumptions include the following:

¨ Legal interpretations of existing policy will support continued operations.

¨ Legislation will support present MWR programs.

¨ Economic environment will remain stable.

¨ Catastrophic events will not seriously impact planned expenditures.

¨ The Office of the Secretary of Defense and Congress will continue to foster a cooperative joint venture climate.

Should one or a combination of the assumptions prove incorrect, the MWR plan could be significantly affected.

EXECUTION OF THE MWR FINANCIAL PLAN
Experience suggests that budget estimates for the Army MWR financial programs are subject to uncertainty, some of which is associated with the assumptions listed above. Changes to the financial plan are inevitable for the current and future fiscal years. Given this uncertainty, the Commander, CFSC, monitors the status of total Army MWR resources and keeps the BOD committees informed accordingly.

Key Financial Indicators
The BOD uses several key financial indicators to monitor systematically the financial status of the installation-, MACOM-, and headquarters-level MWR program resources. These indicators are explained in the Annual NAF Budget Letter of Instructions (Document 3) and displayed in the Commander's MWR Standards Assessment (Document 11) and the Critical Financial Indicators briefing (Appendix C and Document 12). The Commander, CFSC, will ensure the financial strength and solvency of the funds under his control.

MACOM AND INSTALLATION PROGRAM RESOURCES
Key financial indicators for monitoring the MWR program resources at MACOMs and installations include the following:

¨ Authorized APF support. The BOD ensures that the Army MWR programs use APF, rather than NAF, for obligations that have been authorized and appropriated by Congress.

¨ Solvency ratio. The solvency ratio is calculated by dividing cash on hand by current debt. The resulting ratio indicates the ability of the total MWR NAF structure and its major components to meet financial obligations in the short term.

¨ Net income before depreciation (NIBD). The BOD uses NIBD as a gauge of financial performance. While it establishes acceptable levels for NIBD, the BOD recognizes that not all MWR programs are intended to make a profit and that some will not contribute to NIBD.

¨ Budget variance. The BOD uses variance from planned spending to monitor budget programming and management. Actual spending within a specified range of budgeted spending indicates adequate budgeting processes.

¨ Capital purchase/minor construction (CPMC) execution. CPMC execution is an indicator of adequate contract planning and execution. The BOD uses a percentage of execution as its benchmark.

ARMY OPERATING FUNDS
Key financial indicators for monitoring Army operating funds are as follows:

¨ Ratio of AMWRF outstanding loan balance to field operating cash

¨ Changes in AAFES dividends to the AMWRF

¨ Ratio of Army operating funds cash to field current debt (solvency ratio)

¨ Ratio of Army operating funds cash to total Army current debt.

SPECIAL-PURPOSE NAFIS
Key financial indicators for special-purpose, nondiscretionary funds are as follows:

¨ Ratio of assets to liabilities

¨ Evidence of operational self-sufficiency

¨ Actuarial forecasts and studies as appropriate.

Management Actions
RESPONSIBILITIES
CFSC routinely monitors all MWR financial indicators. The Commander, CFSC, will expeditiously bring to the BOD's attention any instances of substantial deviations from the benchmarks established for the key financial indicators.

The BOD is responsible for establishing and maintaining a strong and stable financial condition for the Army MWR program resources. At a minimum, the BOD will take appropriate action when

¨ indicators reflect a potential ratio of Army operating fund cash to field current debt of less than 1:1 over a 3-month period of time or

¨ the outstanding loan balance of the AMWRF is projected to exceed 50 percent of the aggregate field NAFI cash balances.

When circumstances indicate that pledging of NAFI assets may be beneficial, the BOD will review and endorse the action. After Secretariat approval, OSD and Congress will be notified.

In the event that exigent circumstances occur without the opportunity to address a regularly convened meeting of the MWR BOD, the Commander, CFSC, is empowered to direct the most prudent actions feasible and inform the chairman of the BOD at the earliest opportunity. At the next regularly convened meeting of the BOD, the nature and circumstances of all facets of the condition shall be explained fully and reviewed in detail.

CONTROLS
Actions available to the BOD for ensuring the financial strength and stability of the MWR program include raising MWR revenue and reducing expenses:

¨ Raise revenue

¨ Assess installations

¨ Modify local revenue-sharing arrangements

¨ Authorize the AMWRF to borrow from the ABIF or commercial sources

¨ Sell assets

¨ Reduce expenses

¨ Reduce or terminate dividend and grant programs

¨ Defer or cancel purchases

¨ Defer or cancel unexecuted NAF major construction projects

¨ Defer or cancel MWR programs

¨ Freeze hiring

¨ Reduce staff.

Over the long term, the BOD could establish sinking fund reserves to provide financing for potential significant outlays.

PRIORITY OF PAYMENT
Army MWR financial planning shall ensure that sufficient funds are available to pay all liabilities when they are due. In the unlikely event of a shortage of funds to pay liabilities, payment will be made in the following order of priority:

¨ Minimum essential NAFI personnel

¨ Debt service obligations to entities outside DoD (Document 9) lists those currently in force)

¨ Contractors, vendors, and other parties external to DoD

¨ DoD entities.

Unanticipated Revenue
If actual revenues are higher than anticipated, the BOD allocates resources for meeting unfunded requirements based on recommendations of their supporting committees. Examples of unfunded requirements include the following:

¨ Prepayment of ABIF or commercial loans

¨ Reduction of unfunded pension obligations

¨ Creation or augmentation of sinking fund reserves

¨ Investments to generate operational efficiencies

¨ Repair and alteration of existing facilities

¨ Construction of new facilities

¨ Initiation of new programs

¨ Improvements to current programs.

RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS PLAN
The Commander, CFSC, is responsible for maintaining this plan and revising it as necessary.
Chairman, MWR
Board of Directors Commander, CFSC




Appendix A
References

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Army MWR Board of Directors Charter and Bylaws

The Army MWR Vision for the 21st Century

The Army MWR Strategic Action Plan

DoDI 1015.10, Programs for Military Morale, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR)

AR 215-1, Nonappropriated Fund Instrumentalities and Morale, Welfare, and Recreation Activities

DFAS 37-1, Financial and Accounting Policy Implementation



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Appendix B
Tiered Responsibilities

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SECRETARY OF THE ARMY

¨ Establishes, maintains, and disestablishes Army NAFIs. This authority is delegated within the Army as provided for in AR 215-1 and other pertinent regulations.

¨ Designates ACSIM as Army Staff proponent and focal point for MWR and NAF activities.

¨ Designates financial oversight of APF and NAF to the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Financial Management and Comptroller and responsibility for MWR programs, personnel, and contracts policy to the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs.

ASSISTANT CHIEF OF STAFF FOR INSTALLATION MANAGEMENT

¨ Serves as the Army Staff proponent for MWR and related programs, NAF management, and Army-wide MWR and NAF policy.

¨ As proponent of AR 215-1, delegates authority to Commander, CFSC, to promulgate policy and to approve exceptions to policy consistent with controlling law and regulation.

MACOM COMMANDERS

¨ Exercise budget oversight of MWR program operations and NAF financial management by assigned units and installations.

¨ Review and perform oversight of MWR programs and ensure that APF and NAF are used as authorized.

INSTALLATION COMMANDERS

¨ Manage and operate MWR programs based on mission requirements, community needs, and HQDA requirements.

¨ Ensure that operations are conducted in accordance with approved plans.

COMMANDER, CFSC

¨ Promulgates Army policy to implement DoD policies and other guidance upon approval of ACSIM for the management and administration of MWR programs and NAFIs.

¨ Continually reviews the Army MWR program and researches, tests, evaluates, and establishes alternative business strategies.

¨ Develops financial management practices for the management of MWR and NAF resources (issues MWR budget guidance, provides NAF financial oversight, etc.).

¨ Promulgates and implements MWR construction policy and provides program oversight.

ARMY MWR BOARD OF DIRECTORS

¨ Is responsible to the Secretary of the Army, through the Chief of Staff of the Army, for identifying required policy changes for Army Staff development and Secretary of Army approval. The Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs acts on behalf of the Secretary of the Army.

¨ Is responsible to the Secretary of the Army, through the Chief of Staff of the Army, for approving major management strategies, plans, and programs pertaining to Army MWR.

¨ Approves MWR goals, management initiatives, and programs; reviews and approves implementing strategies; and evaluates performance for goal attainment.




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Appendix C
Description of Critical Financial Indicators

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Critical financial indicators, which appear in Document 12, are determined as follows:





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Appendix D
Explanation of Terms

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Army Operating Funds Cash. Combined ABIF cash balances of the AMWRF, ARM Fund, and Field Operating NAFIs.

Cash On Hand. NAFI cash deposits in the ABIF, change funds, petty cash funds, etc., reported on NAFI financial statements.

Current Debt. Same as current liabilities listed on NAF financial statements and includes payables, accruals, unearned income, and the portion of loans payable within the next 12 months.

Field Current Debt. Current debt for Field Operating NAFIs.

Field Operating Cash. Cash on hand at Field Operating NAFIs. Field operating cash may be reported as either the balance in accounts of the ABIF (as used in the MWR Critical Financial Indicators report-Appendix C) or the balance in NAFI financial statements (used in the Commander's MWR Standards Assessment solvency standard).

Field Operating NAFIs. All Army NAFIs (and those DoD NAFIs that come under the executive agency oversight of the Army) at installation and MACOM level, except billeting funds, chaplain funds, civilian post restaurant funds, and civilian welfare funds.

Nonappropriated Fund Instrumentality (NAFI). A business organized and operated within DoD for a specific purpose. A NAFI makes sales or collects revenues, has operating expenses, and makes a profit or loss. As with any business, it has assets, liabilities, a bank account, a manager, etc. A financial statement is produced for each NAFI.

Special-Purpose Nondiscretionary Funds. Those NAFIs established for specific restricted purposes and whose funds may not be otherwise used. Includes the Army Medical/Life Fund, Army Central Insurance Fund, Army NAF Retirement Trust Plan Fund, NAF Employees 401(k) Savings Plan Fund, and Army Billeting Fund.

Successor-in-Interest. A NAFI that provides financial support and assistance to another NAFI, as required, and assumes all outstanding liabilities or receives the residual assets of that NAFI following its dissolution. A MACOM, in the exercise of successor-in-interest assistance, may have to direct that the financial resources of one or more NAFIs provide assistance to another NAFI.




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Appendix E
Acronyms

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AAFES Army and Air Force Exchange Service
ABIF Army Banking and Investment Fund
ACSIM Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management
AMWRF Army MWR Fund
APF appropriated funds
AR Army Regulation
ARM Army Recreation Machine
BOD Board of Directors
CFSC Community and Family Support Center
CPMC capital purchase/minor construction
CRA Capital Reinvestment Assessment
DFAS Defense Finance and Accounting Service
DoD Department of Defense
DoDI DoD Instruction
HQDA Headquarters, Department of the Army
IMWRF Installation MWR Fund
MACOM major Army command
MCA Military Construction, Army
MPA Military Personnel, Army
MWR morale, welfare, and recreation
NAF nonappropriated funds
NAFI nonappropriated funds instrumentality
NIBD net income before depreciation
OMA Operation and Maintenance, Army
RDT&E research, development, test, and evaluation

[piedmont]

175. I'm not wading through that to find your point for you....

Is there a budget in there somewhere, or is the mere fact that an organization publishes a long document supposed to imply that they can't be self-supporting?

[Joanne98]

179. HA! what you see here is a capitalist/communist/socialist

economic system. It's a gigantic BIO-SPHERE.

[piedmont]

190. Huh? Now you're really not making any sense. nt

[Joanne98]

151. I hope everybody who reads this thread, that has EVER been

in the military, researches this subject more. nadinbrzezinski saz you are all invited to use these services. I ask you to PLEASE go and see what happens. Good night.

[kiahzero]

152. Shocking

The services that are open to the public are open to the public. The services that aren't, aren't.

Your arguments are ridiculous.

[Joanne98]

160. The services aren't open to the public. They CHARGE!

They CHARGE for facilities that the are OWNED by the taxpayer. Civilians should be able to use them FREE OF CHARGE!

Just think of me as a SHAREHOLDER!

[kiahzero]

164. So that's what this is about?

:rofl:

It's been a few days since I've seen so absurd an argument.

[Joanne98]

171. Is the military socialist or capitalist?

If you are socialist then PERKS should be FREE! Not just for military members but all American citizens. If you are capitalist then you shouldn't be dependant on taxes. Make up your mind.

[kiahzero]

172. The military is a somewhat socialist institution within a capitalistic society.

If you wish to bring socialistic ideals to mainstream society, pointing out the socialist nature of the military is a good way of doing so.

Attacking it... considerably less so.

[Joanne98]

180. But wouldn't it be better if we did it with an institution less violent

They do drop bombs on people you know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. shocking I know

but we don't live in a world where we could do away with a military force

It's not like everybody is going to wake up and sing kumbaya

That said, should we review our spending structure, yep

Should we start by cuting the few things that make life bearable for the service member and their familes? Again why do you HATE the military so much?

[BrotherBuzz]

170. This dumb draftee paid green fees to play golf on an Army golf course

I also played the same course as a civilian and still had to pay, albeit for a higher green fee.

As a 'shareholder', I don't want management giving away the goods for free, but I have no problem giving the 'employees' a discount because that's good for the business moral.

:shrug:

[Joanne98]

173. All this shit was paid for a long time ago......

Your father and grandfather PAID for it. It was NEVER suppose to be a BUSINESS!

Same thing for the highways and electric. it was paid for a long time ago. Why the charges?

[BrotherBuzz]

178. Golf courses are living

They need to be fed and maintained. :shrug:

[Joanne98]

183. You got to be kidding.

Do they have "human rights" too?

[kiahzero]

184. Oh, please.

You asked why they cost money. He responded that they need to be maintained in order to be usable.

[Joanne98]

186. If they didn't exist they wouldn't cost any money.

[kiahzero]

187. That's not what you asked

You asked why there was a charge to use them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. You think the highway does not need maintain-ace?

I need to tell Cal trans to stop maintaining them highways

You think the electrical grid needs zero maintenance? Need to tell the energy company to stop doing that

Lets see how long these services last in any usable form.

You are getting more and more pathetic

[aikoaiko]

161. they let me use one of their shooting ranges and hunton large portions of land.

and their recycling center.

[Joanne98]

163. Who are you talking about?

[aikoaiko]

202. You suggested I go use their services. I do.

Shooting ranges and hunting are just two more services that the public can take advantage of at our local army base.

that is all.

[Joanne98]

167. Army MWR "bidness" programs.....

I know this sounds BASIC. But the Army isn't a BUSINESS! Or it is not supposed to be.

http://www.armymwr.org/business/default.asp?ID=1

I hate to be a mind reader here, but I bet if I looked futher I would find DIVIDENDS. Is the MWR a stock (sold only to federal employees) that pays DIVIDENDS!

This is reminding of "Prison Industries"...

[kiahzero]

169. We get it.

You don't think that troops should have recreation. We get it already.

You'll be happy to know that over the six years of Republican governance, benefits for the troops have been cut.

[Joanne98]

174. Quit hiding behind the troops.

[kiahzero]

176. Right

Talking about the troops in a discussion of military benefits is totally inappropriate. Forgive me. :puke:

[Joanne98]

168. Fort Excellence!

http://www.armymwr.org/home/Show_file.asp?fileID=582

Eagle Trace Golf Course
Par 72
Welcome to Fort Excellence's Eagle Trace Golf Course. Eagle Trace has been developed to demonstrate to commanders the key factors of an excellent golf operation. Equipment, products and procedures have been specified and a business plan developed.

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[Joanne98]

191. Military Industrial Complex....

What's the difference between production and services?

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Military-industrial complex
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President Dwight Eisenhower famously referred to the "military-industrial complex" in his farewell speech.The term military-industrial complex (MIC) refers to a close and symbiotic relationship between a nation's armed forces, its arms industry, and associated political and commercial interests. In such a system, the military is dependent on industry to supply materiel and other support, while the defense industry depends on government for a steady revenue stream. The term is most often used in reference to the United States, where it was coined in a speech by President Dwight Eisenhower.

As pejorative terms, the "MIC" or the "iron triangle" refer to an institutionalised collusion among defense contractors (industry), The Pentagon (military), and the United States government (Congress, Executive branch), as a cartel that works against the public interest, whose motivation is profiteering.

Contents
1 History
2 Origin of the term
3 Cultural references
4 See also
5 Sources
6 Notes
7 Further reading
8 External links



History
According to historian William H. McNeill, the first modern military-industrial complexes arose in Britain and France in the 1880s and 1890s. The naval rivalry between these two powers was of utmost significance in the fomentation of this first MIC's growth and development. Officers like John Fisher influenced the shift toward faster technological integration (which meant closer relationships with private, innovative companies). Similar military-industrial complexes soon followed in nations like Germany, Japan, and the United States.

Industrialists who played a part in the arms industry of this era included Alfred Krupp, Samuel Colt, William Armstrong, and Joseph Whitworth.


Origin of the term
The first public use of the term was by the Union of Democratic Control, formed by Sir Charles Trevelyan in the United Kingdom on 5 August 1914. Point Four of their pacifist manifesto declared, "4. National armaments should be limited by mutual agreement, and the pressures of the military-industrial complex regulated by the nationalisation of armaments firms and control over the arms trade".<1>

President of the United States (and former General of the Army) Dwight D. Eisenhower later used the term in his Farewell Address to the Nation on January 17, 1961:

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.
Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex
In the penultimate draft of the address, Eisenhower initially used the term military-industrial-congressional complex, and thus indicated the essential role that U.S. Congress plays in the propagation of the military industry. But, it is said, that the president chose to strike the word congressional in order to placate members of the legislative branch of the federal government. The author of the term was Eisenhower's speech-writer Malcolm Moos.

Vietnam War-era activists referred frequently to the concept. In the late 1990s James Kurth asserted that "y the mid-1980s . . . the term had largely fallen out of public discussion," and opined that "hatever the power of arguments about the influence of the military-industrial complex on weapons procurement during the Cold War, they are much less relevant to the current era."

Contemporary students and critics of American militarism continue to refer to and employ the term, however. For example, historian Chalmers Johnson uses words from the second, third, and fourth paragraphs quoted above from Eisenhower's address as an epigraph to Chapter Two ("The Roots of American Militarism") of a recent volume on this subject (The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic , p. 39).

The expressions permanent war economy and war corporatism are related concepts that have also been used in association with this term.

The term is also used to describe comparable collusion in other nations such as Wilhelminian Germany, Britain, France and post-Soviet Russia.


Cultural references
The American television series The X-Files displayed a nameless conspiracy of the American government, dominated by the Military-industrial complex's sinister machinations. This conspiracy included everything from tobacco lobbyists to extraterrestrials. Not surprisingly, some conspiracy theorists felt the show was created to disenfranchise their distrust and hide the real conspiracy. In the third season episode of the series, "Jose Chung's 'From Outer Space'" series lead David Duchovny satirizes this reaction amongst conspiracy-thinkers when he calls a writer's search for the truth regarding a bizarre alien abduction as an effort made for "the military-industrial-entertainment complex." It was also the basis of the documentary Why We Fight (2005 film).


See also
List of countries by military expenditures
Permanent war economy
Military Keynesianism
Military funding of science
Project for the New American Century
Blue Sky Tribe
War is a Racket (1935 book by Smedley Butler)
Why We Fight (2005 documentary film by Eugene Jarecki)
Corporatism
Federal Reserve
Militarism
Prison-industrial complex
US/Saudi AWACS Sale
F-35 Lightning II
Alex Jones
Business Leaders for Sensible Priorities
Ultra-imperialism

Sources
DeGroot, Gerard J. Blighty: British Society in the Era of the Great War, 144, London & New York: Longman, 1996, ISBN 0-582-06138-5
Eisenhower, Dwight D. Public Papers of the Presidents, 1035-40. 1960.
________. "Farewell Address." In The Annals of America. Vol. 18. 1961-1968: The Burdens of World Power, 1-5. Chicago: Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1968.
________. President Eisenhower's Farewell Address, Wikisource.
Hartung, William D. "Eisenhower's Warning: The Military-Industrial Complex Forty Years Later." World Policy Journal 18, no. 1 (Spring 2001).
Johnson, Chalmers The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic, New York: Metropolitan Books, 2004
Kurth, James. "Military-Industrial Complex." In The Oxford Companion to American Military History, ed. John Whiteclay Chambers II, 440-42. Oxford & New York: Oxford University Press, 1999.
Nelson, Lars-Erik. "Military-Industrial Man." In New York Review of Books 47, no. 20 (Dec. 21, 2000): 6.
Nieburg, H. L. In the Name of Science, Quadrangle Books, 1970

Notes
^ DeGroot, Gerard J. Blighty: British Society in the Era of the Great War, 144, London & New York: Longman, 1996, ISBN 0-582-06138-5

Further reading
Andreas, Joel, Addicted to War: Why the U.S. Can't Kick Militarism, ISBN 1-904859-01-1, <1>.
Cochran, Thomas B., William M. Arkin, Robert S. Norris, Milton M. Hoenig, U.S. Nuclear Warhead Production Harper and Row, 1987, ISBN 0-88730-125-8
Friedman, George and Meredith, The Future of War: Power, Technology and American World Dominance in the 21st Century, Crown, 1996, ISBN 0-517-70403-X
Keller, William W., Arm in Arm: The Political Economy of the Global Arms Trade Basic Books, 1995.
Kelly, Brain, Adventures in Porkland: How Washington Wastes Your Money and Why They Won't Stop, Villard, 1992, ISBN 0-679-40656-5
McDougall, Walter A., ...The Heavens and the Earth: A Political HIstory of the Space Age, Basic Books, 1985, (Pulitzer Prize for History) ISBN 0-465-02888-8
Melman, Seymour, Pentagon Capitalism: The Political Economy of War, McGraw Hill, 1970
Melman, Seymour, (ed.) The War Economy of the United States: Readings in Military Industry and Economy, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1971.
Mollenhoff, Clark R., The Pentagon: Politics, Profits and Plunder, GP Putnam's Sons, 1967
Patterson, Walter C., The Plutonium Business and the Spread of the Bomb, Sierra Club, 1984, ISBN 0-87156-837-3
Pasztor, Andy, When the Pentagon Was for Sale: Inside America's Biggest Defense Scandal, Scribner, 1995, ISBN 0-684-19516-X
Pierre, Andrew J., The Global Politics of Arms Sales, Princeton, 1982, ISBN 0-691-02207-0
Sampson, Anthony, The Arms Bazaar: From Lebanon to Lockheed, Bantam, 1977, ISBN 0-553-655-X
St. Clair, Jeffery, Grand Theft Pentagon: Tales of Corruption and Profiteering in the War on Terror , Common Courage Press (July 1, 2005), ISBN 1-56751-336-0
Sweetman, Bill, "In search of the Pentagon's billion dollar hidden budgets - how the US keeps its R&D spending under wraps", from Jane's International Defence Review, online
Weinberger, Sharon. Imaginary Weapons. New York: Nation Books, 2006. ISBN 1-56025-849-7.

External links
Wikisource has original text related to this article:
Military-Industrial Complex Speechwww.MilitaryIndustrialComplex.com Features running daily, weekly and monthly defense spending totals plus Contract Archives section.
http://www.dod.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2006/
Schema-root.org: military industry 92 military industry topics, each with a current news feed
Open Secrets: Top Defense Contributors to Federal Candidates and Parties database
War Resisters: Piechart and info on defense spending
Military-industrial complex on SourceWatch
National priorities project chart showing how your federal income tax is spent
Quotes on Money and Banking and Militarism
Flows of Money and Patronage from Washington Truth in Recruiting
Why We Fight : A Film by Eugene Jarecki exploring the effects of the Military Industrial Complex
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex"
Categories: Articles with invalid ISBNs | Political economy | Social justice | Military industry | Military economics | Conspiracy theories | Dwight D. Eisenhower

[jus_the_facts]

198. Seems you're wasting your time and effort...and sanity...the truth HURTS...

...and nobody wants to hear it...even here...but I commend you for trying regardless. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. What truth?

that if you want to cut military spending you do not start by cutting the few amenities troops have.

There are many places where you can cut the fat, and MWR is not the place to start.

I could introduce you though to several other high profile programs that have cost you billions... that may or should be scaled down, significantly.. such as the F-22 Raptor, and the Air Force Space Command.

[jus_the_facts]

203. Funny how the troops haven't had their BASIC essentials taken care of this go 'round...

....to protect their LIVES while standing around getting blown to bits...the legless and armless...or THE DEAD...won't be able to FUCKING PLAY GOLF OR ANYTHING ELSE...maybe they shoulda privatized their entertainment instead of what's NECESSARY for WAR..or an occupation. :eyes:

[kiahzero]

204. Yeah, privitizing the MWR would be a great solution.

After all, it works so well in other arenas.

This whole argument is absolutely retarded. I admit I'm curious what sort of disgusting thinking (or lack thereof) is driving this desire to take away MWR from the military.

[jus_the_facts]

207. excuse me....

...I forgot this after that statement. :sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. Funny how you do not understand how the MWR budget

is not part of the incidental cost of MWR

By the way, that is ANOTHER battle that people are fighting

Oh and the arguments made on this thread by the OP are exactly the same arguments made by Rummy the Dummy in 2003 when he intended to not privatize MWR, but close it, fully and completely, as in close schools, close PXs close recreational facilities. That was his ultimate goal

It was not privatiZation, it was out right closure

And we fought Dummy the Rummy back then, we will fight so called progressives

By the way if the military is living so high on the hog.. yes Rummy used that argument as well, when are you joining?

Oh and he was making the argument that this would save oh so much money...

I know there are some so called progressives who hate the military in any shape, way or form... and this threat is a perfect example of that

Now that I think about it, it was earlier in the Bush debacle, that Rummy made them arguments since I was still readying and calling congress from hawaii, so mid 2002, sorry.

[jus_the_facts]

206. I was told I wouldn't be accepted after high school because I am blind in one eye....

...now I'm THANKFUL that I wasn't good enough stock to be a part of the military industrial complex back then when I was too naive to understand how the world works...or better yet how it never has and apparently never will.

[kiahzero]

208. Maybe you should focus your ire on the massive R&D budget?

If your complaint is the MIC, why try to make military families' lives worse?

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. And you still cannot comprehend why your ire

is focused on the wrong place.

By the way now that Europe is dumping our dollar and we expect a drop in the value, we might have to cut a lot more than just MWR, that will make you tickled pink

Something you may want to sink your teeth into

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,453906,00.html

[jus_the_facts]

212. My *ire* isn't focused on the wrong place...the PENTAGON...

..is THE problem in and of itself...the world is too goddamn small to be continuing this asinine control of land and other peoples lives and natural resources...IT ISN'T WORKING NOW AND IT NEVER HAS...except to invent new and improved ways of killing ourselves and anybody else who gets in our way...we higher animals can't seem to wrap our big brains around ways of making our world a better..peaceful place instead of the tired old militant way of FORCE...that's my perspective on the subject...to each their own choice and to each their own reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. Until humanity grows out of tribalism

good luck on that one

Does DOD need to have a small (or big) slash in the budget?

Yes... in that we agree.

Can we dispense with a military? Not even the Swiss have done that... but I am sure you knew that, and this is YOUR goal...

So when we learn to sing kumbaya and play nice with each other, we may dissolve the armed forces, until then we are territorial and tribal animals... hate to break that to you

Oh and by the way, in case you wonder MONKEYS as in Chimpanzees, also engage in what looks what tribal warfare and they kill as well, but I am sure you knew that... and by the way, Jane Goodall was surprised the first time she saw that. Since we have documented more than just one instance.

[jus_the_facts]

214. No shit sherlock...btw chimpanzees aren't MONKEYS....

..they're in the APE family...if you don't even know the difference then don't keep tryin' in vain to enlighten me further with your spew. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. and your point is

they are 98% genetically the same as humans

So try again sherlock,

Oh and you may want to do a self delete

And you say it's spew, yet it has given rise to the thought that tribalism and conflict, and yes even war, is not specific to only the human animal

So when you get rid of tribalism and Territorialism in the human animal, then and only then can you think of getting rid of the armed forces'

By the way... in case you wonder, on a species completely unrelated to us, war like behavior has been observed recently as well, bottle nose dolphins, so how is your fantasy going?

[jus_the_facts]

218. No dear... you try again...you said that chimpanzee's are monkeys....

..that is FALSE....my POINT is WE ARE ANIMALS...our emotions didn't evolve with our ability to make technology to carry out those basic emotional/animal instincts..so instead they will make us extinct in short order because of it. :think:

[nadinbrzezinski]

221. read bellow

you may even learn something today, as a commercial for the local credit union says regularly.

[jus_the_facts]

222. Since we're so off topic anyway...your avatar suggests you've read some Lovecraft....

An exerpt from Call of Cthulhu...written in 1926 by H. P. Lovecraft...


"The most merciful thing in the world...I think...is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity....and it was not meant that we should voyage far...

The sciences...each straining in its own direction....have hitherto harmed us little....but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifing vistas of reality....and of our frightful position therein...that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."


.....in light of our war machines and nukes...and the ongoing destrution and dessimation of the environment...the reality of the 21st century's vistas of terror our sciences have created...I find Lovecraft's words eerily prophetic....

Science has been the best and sometimes worst of us...the military is the absolute worst because we KNOW BETTER but continue its use regardless.

[jus_the_facts]

215. DU stuttered..so here it is again...No shit sherlock...btw chimpanzees aren't MONKEYS....

..they're in the APE family...if you don't even know the difference then don't keep tryin' in vain to enlighten me further with your spew. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. try self delete

and by the way, you may try to laugh, but you cannot answer some of these basic questions

[jus_the_facts]

219. I'm not laughing with you...but AT you now.....

....and don't have to justify one goddamn thing to you because you obviously wouldn't comprehend it if I were to keep trying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. No the one that does not comprehend is you

and now you are resorting to personal attacks

How mature

Again, for the one who seems slow to comprehend

We have found evidence of Territorial behavior in nature

We have found evidence of what can only be classified as war like activity in nature

It is not only the human animal that engages in these behaviors

Now once you banish these behaviors from the human animal you can start talking banishing military forces

They will be with us UNTIL we do that.

Until then, banishing the military is pie in the sky fantasy

And you may talk all you want about the Military Industrial complex but what you wish for is not BIOLOGICALLY possible at this point

And animal studies are backing this conclusion further

You can and will continue to laugh at the science, but truth is you hate the military and you also seem to hate science

Do I need speak even more slowly for you?

And here are some articles for the ignorant on this subject

http://scholar.google.com/scholar%3Fq%3Ddolphin+aggression+and+death+of+bottlenose+dolphins%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26oi%3Dscholart

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.anthro.32.061002.120046

http://www.gortbusters.org/?q=node/1560

Do you want to continue this discusion or are the facts starting to sink in?

[jus_the_facts]

223. don't go assuming....you know what that does don't you.....

and you also seem to hate science

Do I need speak even more slowly for you?

Now who's the immature one making personal attacks?!? You aren't listening and now I couldn't care less what you have to say so I'll leave you with that.

[DocSavage]

224. If you

are a tax payer, you are part of the military industrial complex. Work at GM? Bingo, Boeing, Kraft Foods, Johnson and Johnson, you win. And let me thank you for all of the taxes that you have contributed that have gone to the DOD. I retired from the Navy, and I know that without hard working tax payers like yourself, I would not had the equipment to use on a daily basis, never mind a pay check every 2 weeks. Thanks again. Think I will call the base and see if I can get a t time for tuesday, should be pretty good weather.

[itsrobert]

192. As a person who makes purchases at the BX/PX

I rather they cut out the golf courses so they could lower the prices at the PX. The vast majority of service members and their families never step foot on a MWR golf course.