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What are the negative consequences of drilling in ANWR?

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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 05:54 PM
Original message
What are the negative consequences of drilling in ANWR?
-area to be drilled only 2000 acres, or .5% of the entire ANWR area.
-the USGS estimates as many as 16 billion barrels of recoverable oil would be present, with the current technology the area taken up by one derrick would be less than half the size of one at Prudhoe Bay, and could extract from up to 7 miles around its base.
-the caribou herd would not be negatively affected. Prudhoe Bay area and the pipeline being opened, from 1964 to the present the herd has increased ten fold

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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. The 2000 acres is a nominal footprint.
The disruption to animal migration is much greater than a simple 2000 acre claim. That's because the actual acreage is not an indication of what is happening. It's just a footprint. The pipeline footprint doesn't do justice to it's impact.

That is about all I recall from a discussion on the Thirty something cspan discussion.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. We won't see some of it. It goes to countries other than America.
I don't recall the percentage. But we won't even get the benefits of the oil. According to Sen. Ron Wyden, much of it would go to Asian countries.

It's short sighted.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
60. I doubt any would go to this country
The oil we pump out of Alaska is heavy and sour compared to the oil that comes out of Texas and Saudi Arabia.

We have very limited refining capacity when it comes to the heavy sour stuff, so most of it goes over to places like Japan where they have the right refineries for it.

That being said, oil is sold on an international market, and the increased overall supply may push prices down nominally for everyone, but it would be just as easy for a bloc like OPEC to cut their production by a corresponding amount and make the whole transaction a wash.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. It also doesn't take into account all the roads that will have to be built.
It'll essentially destroy that ecosystem.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. Isn't That 2000 Acres Broken Up & Spread Over Millions Of Acres?
In other words, not 2000 contiguous acres? Not sure where I heard this, but if it's true, the impact would be infinitely greater.
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aceman2373 Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. we need to develop alternative fuels
not drill for more oil. As long as the oil is available at cheap prices, we will continue with these
illegal wars and lies from our government.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Link
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. what are the positives?
not many...there's only a few years worth of oil there

it's just another scam so that a few large construction firms can make some obscene profits
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Most of the big firms like Exxon-Mobil or BP-Shell or Chevron-Texaco are looking for big fields.
Like ones in Iraq or Venezuela or Iran. Fields that have been discovered but not yet developed. ANWR is below their radar.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
47. But it's not under the radar of guys like Ted Stevens
the INSANE man in Congress shilling for oil companies and jobs. TO these guys getting a toehold on ANWR is all about WORK, in Alaska it doesn't matter if you pollute the fuck out of it as NO ONE will SEE it, and they know that.

All they want is the MONEY, as for ANWR and other wildlife areas in Alaska and the Lower 48 states they are NOTHING BUT A BANK to them, full of gold, uranium, platinum, oil - they don't give a shit about any animals and never did..

It's all LIP service for the american people who want to go camping once in a while, or see a live animal, or a big tree :)

Good point you make, it's small potatoes for the big boys..
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I've heard it described more as a point of principle
that environmentalists will not be permitted to make anywhere safe and this is a big ideological middle finger to the left.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. yes, that's definitely true too n/t
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Mendocino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
58. 'It's never decided till we win" Sen. Ted Stevens (r-Alaska)
"An area of flat white nothingness" Gale Norton Interior Secretary (former)

"We feel very, very confident we will be able to crack the backs of radical environmentalists" Tom Delay, regarding the opening of ANWR.

What Delay and Stevens said is just plain sad, but Nortons comment is particularly galling. The noted ecologist Aldo Leopold once stated, that someone who looks at an animal or plant or land and wonders obtusely "What good is it?" is the height of ignorance.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. Yes, that's what I was referring to.
I'm no blind environmentalist but I really, really resent blind anti-environmentalists. They are precisely why environments need aggressive protection to begin with.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Actually, it's far less than that...
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 06:49 PM by originalpckelly
the reserve can only supply the total US consumption for 575 days.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wow! All the republican talking points (lies)!
Keep your dicks out of our wilderness.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
59. thank you for your insightful input. nt.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why drill for 575 days worth of oil?
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 06:48 PM by originalpckelly
:shrug:

Excuse me, bad figure, it's 575 days of oil.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. IT is high sulfur oil. It would never come to the US, Why drill for Chinese oil?
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well, we could export it...
but the point is that in 1.58 years we'll be in the same boat. We aren't going to solve our problem by doing this.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. That and the fact...
...that we won't see the oil from ANWR at all for at least ten years.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. link? nt.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Here is a Wikipedia summary of the amount which could be produced...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#Estimates_of_oil_reserves

If it replaces 5% of our daily oil usage, then we can get 12 years out of it.

However, in totality, it contains the same amount of oil used in 1.57 years or 575 days. I used numbers from a site I Googled for the 575 total, so they will be different. Here is the report where I found the figures for daily consumption:

http://www.rff.org/rff/Events/Energy2050/loader.cfm?url=/commonspot/security/getfile.cfm&PageID=19883

I used the estimated amounts from the Wikipedia article, however.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. i was interested in the high sulfur claim. nt.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
50. I don't know about that...
but if you Google it, you can probably find out about it.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. try this link
< canadiancontent.net/science-environment/48950-anwr-alaska-pipeline-l >
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. nothing. nt.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Maybe you should ask your avatar , why?
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. yeah. aha. nt.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. The 2000 acres figure is CORPORATE PROPAGANDA.
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 06:52 PM by tabasco
That figure only represents where pipeline stanchions actually TOUCH THE GROUND. The 2000 acres number does not include roads, other portions of the pipeline, etc. That number is pure corporate propaganda and should not be repeated because it is pure bull.

"The argument that this is just going to affect 2,000 acres -- I am sorry -- having flown over this area, having seen what happens, I know, and the Department of Interior knows, it isn't just about the pad where you drill. It is about roads and airstrips and pipelines and water and gravel sources and base camps and construction camps, storage pads, power lines, power plants, support facilities, coastal marine facilities -- it is a huge undertaking."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220010
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. good counterpoint. thanks. nt.
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. Furthers the illusion that we can remain dependent on fossil fuels
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Karmageddon Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. 2000 acres = an acre here, 2 acres there, etc... then add the roads, restaurants, bars, toilets, etc
and it adds up to a LOT more than 2000 acres. If it was all in one 2000 acre spot it wouldn't be nearly as bad (it would still be bad, but not AS bad). By spreading it around a few acres at a time, it will disturb a significant part of the area. They say 2000 acres to make it sound much more trivial than it is, which is exactly what you would expect from the oil industry.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here's your 2000 acres
Notice the little red square that represents 2000 acres and then look how that 2000 acres is spent:
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. now that is what i was looking for. thanks. nt.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Similar operation in Wyoming


The 2000 acres is only the measurement of the well pads, not the entire stretch of land.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yikes
that's pretty frightening. What's worse about Alaska is that the ground isn't hard like it is in Wyoming. It's permafrost. When you try to put roads on it, it melts... big problems there.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. AND if that weren't bad enough
Take a look at this graphic... if you match the above picture with this one, you'll notice the whole disturbed area happens to be nearly the entire calving grounds for the caribou.

Caribou don't calf, then there are no caribou.

This is more than just a pipeline running down the middle of Alaska:

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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. What is the terrian there?
From google earth, it looks like all that ground is peat bog, but i can't tell.

If it is peat bog, and they spend a few years making a mess, provided it isn't a toxic mess,
the peat bog will recover after they leave.

The problem as i see it, is for all of north america. As human industrialization has cut
off migrations of animals, and roads have separated once-continuous wilderspaces, will the
long term effect of the noise and human encroachment be further ecosystem breakdown, not
just in northern alaska, but across the planet.

When i'm worreid about drilling ANWR, its really the tip of the iceburg about the exploitation
of land without consideration to its implicit value in wilderspace.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. No, it's permafrost
And roads melt it.

Destroying it permanently.

There isn't any real going back from this kind of development.

This is an extremely fragile area that supports so much wildlife, the whole food chain could be altered as a result.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. And to expound a bit further
What the roads actually do is melt the ground under them, and then it spreads out, and out, and out - eventually destroying the whole area.

You just can't refreeze the stuff. It doesn't work that way.

This area shouldn't be touched AT ALL.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. Okay, let me weigh in here
as someone who spent two summers flying all over every square mile of ANWR, sampling by helicopter for the Dept of Energy in the late 70s and physically viewing all land north,east & west of Fairbanks I can tell you with complete assurance that the footprint left by the oil companies will DECIMATE the life up there.

Not just the caribou, who calve in that area, and as you can see by the maps supplied by Demobabe that much of ANWR IS calving grounds, also where they feed and fatten up for the winter. There are thousands of species of animals that live in that area, every state in the US has at least one bird that reproduces up there, and as a matter of fact, and THIS is FACT - Nowhere on earth is wildlife more abundant than in the Arctic Tundra Slopes during the summers.

The caribou will be destroyed by both global warming AND the oil fields, by being forced to graze in higher elevations where there are more predators, so they have a higher kill rate. And there are more than a single herd, depends on which side of ANWR you are.

Here's some interesting facts:

During the short summers the arctic tundra slopes accommodate the largest herds of wild animals in the world. Called the skin of the earth by the Natives, the tundra is a spongy 1-4 foot thick mat on top of the earth and is a living microcosm of grasses, lichens, tiny flowers, and berries, nourished by the captured snowmelt on top of the permafrost below. The caribou migrate there in huge herds to bear their calves. Wolves, polar bear and grizzly bear come too, and some these are resident animals. Other resident wildlife are Arctic hare, lemmings, snow owl, raven, ptarmigan, wolverine, ermine, fox and musk ox, to name a few.


Wild sheep and goats reside in the higher elevations of the Brooks Mountains. The caribou herds remain during the summer to graze the rich tundra, then migrate south across the passes of the Brooks Mountains to the subarctic rivers and forests in the fall. Great flocks of birds migrate to the tundra slopes from as far away Florida and Mexico. The large flocks include geese, swan, crane, egret and numerous species of duck. Some molt and become land borne, and all hatch their chicks during the summer months, teach them to fly, and then they migrate south in the fall.

******

This is of great interest to me, so much so that I've been writing a book about it for five years, and have some Hollywood interest in it - I'm not far from finishing it, and I would think that many people will be interested in my story about my time up there, chased by bears, and villages while naked with shotguns and hatchets, picking alpine flowers, and wandering amidst fields of caribou SKULLS, about one per every 6 feet for as far as you can see on the tundra.

As a matter of fact, the early global warming occuring at that time may have saved my life. When we crashed in a chopper on the other side of the Brooks Range we landed on what amounted to a 'water bed' created by the melting of permafrost UNDER the tundra. If that hadn't been melted my teeth could have shot up through my skull like popcorn upon impact.

If anyone has any questions about that area, Alaska (lived there ten years), or animals I'd be glad to answer them, meanwhile I'll get back to writing my book, so I can expose these bastards for killing a state that I consider a 'canary in the coal mine' or bellweather state, where you can SEE things are going wrong due to LACK of extremem weather for one.

Don't let them fool you, it's NOT a snowy desolate flat area of no use. That place is FILLED WITH LIFE,so much so that I've seen life moving from Horizon to Horizon and not much else.

Anything else you hear from them is PROPAGANDA, and they WILL KILL IT.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Powerful post. Thank you.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Very welcome
if nothing else I believe that humans require that some piece of Nature be preserved, since we come from it, and it's in our hearts and souls whether we know it or not, and just knowing that something like that exists keeps a lot of us SANE, eh?

But for the Oil Companies, it's "out of sight, out of mind"..

Not as long as I'M AROUND :)

I'm hoping I will reach a lot of people, many are reduced to living on concrete and have no idea what nature even IS anymore, so if I can INJECT their souls with some Mother Nature maybe we can get enough together to reach a Tipping Point in conscienceness.

Oh, the stories I could tell, about standing on the tundra, flat as a green pancake, with the sun crawling the horizon for 24 hours a day, and you feel like your shadow is keeping actual time, just like a sundial..

wait a minute, why not just tell them :)

Watch for it, called "The Jesus Bolt".
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. your words echo what many scientists have said
Thank you for adding your experience.

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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Thanks
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 09:24 PM by symbolman
there's going to be a lot of info in this 'adventure' book I'm writing and using humor and insane situations (some reminiscent of Hunter S. Thompson :) ) I'm hoping I sneak it right into the public's minds, so that they 'know' this info, but don't 'know' WHY :)

I appreciate your input too, people NEED to know this..
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I saw a documentary on ANWR, but I don't remember the name
basically, it showed how much life there was there VS what people were being told was there; i.e, that is is not a "frozen wasteland". Honestly, I can't believe we're even debating whether or not to save ANWR x(
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
65. Very interested in your book!
Please keep us updated as to when it's published. (I know, I know - you have to finish it first. :) I'm an on-again off-again writer myself, so I know how that goes.) For some additional motivation, just know that there's a lot of interest here to see the completed version! And now is definitely the time for it to have the greatest impact. Best of luck with it!

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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Thanks! Your being a writer and seeing merit
in it gives me more impetus, and I believe you are right, NOW is the time to strike with this - for one thing I still worry that the Dems could cave on this, so it's more important than ever to get something out there that people can relate to, to spiritualize evironmentalism, bring people back into the fold of Humanity.

It's not called The Jesus Bolt because it's religious, as it's more of a growth of an individual in a special place and time, a 'jesus bolt' is something pilots jokingly refer to as that ONE BOLT at the top of the chopper that holds ALL the blades on, when that comes out, the next person you will be talking to is JESUS :)

So it's a metaphor for what holds everything together, for instance, what if the Caribou ARE the Jesus Bolt of the Planet and we don't know it, until it's too late? What's the Protaganist's Jesus Bolt? What holds HIM Together, or any of us?

Not called Symbolman for no reason, studied Joseph Campbell, and others, so there should be a measure of deep symbolism in much of the experiences, if you want to see my Hollywood award winning Flash animation, and the reason I call myself Symbolman, you can go to http://www.symbolman.com and see the animation created from a Book I 'wrote' with NO WORDS, as an exercise in abstract communications between cultures. Wrote a 60 page story using only international Symbols to tell the tale.

I remember 'writing' it in Seattle years ago, and I would go into a coffee shop and tell people, "I'm writing a Book with NO WORDS.." and they'd make a face and say, "SURE you are..", but then I'd haul out the prototype and people of all occupations actually gathered together to puzzle the meaning of the symbols out, realizing that each symbol changed the meaning of the ones from before, creating a narrative in the process - one person described it as 'visual esperanto', always liked that.

I'll be GLAD to let folks know when it's done, and god willing a publisher kicks it out into the world to live or die, I'll announce it on the DU and everywhere else I can think of, maybe a big enough publisher will do all that for me...

Again many thanks for your interest, PRAY for me that Ralph Steadman agrees to do the cover - when I approached him on it at a book signing he seemed interested in saving the Caribou with a wild collection of experiences and even a plot, so maybe..just maybe.. what killed me is that I "look" for signs that something is suppose to happen, so when I walked into the Sunset Strip bookstore where Ralph was signing he was wearing a jacket with CARIBOU SYMBOLS all over it.

I just about shit. :)

Love to pick your brain on publishing in a PM or two if you can give me some tips, I'm not going to go the route all the HOW TO books lay on you, I've always been the guy that gets back stage, so I'm going to do it that way.. :)

Appreciate the insights!
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I didn't say I was a PUBLISHED writer, mind you.... ;)
...Well, in many ages past I had some poetry and short stories published, won a few writing competitions in high school and undergrad, that kind of thing. Gained a famous/infamous reputation in a small community of fanfic writers in the 90's. These days I have the best of intentions to get back to my original sci-fi concepts, and that's the on-again off-again part - I've got a series of 4 novels in the works that I poke and scribble at when I have the odd moment. My 2007 resolution is to finish at least one of those books in the next year, but we shall see how it goes.

My stuff is categorically fiction, however, and while I fully intend to work in an allegory here and there, it's a work like yours that's really important for consciousness raising these days. There is a shift in the wind, and every little bit helps to keep it going, helps raise awareness further.

I think it was Richard Dawkins who used the airplane analogy, similar to your "Jesus Bolt." He pointed out that an ecosystem was like an airplane, if you consider the various bolts holding it together to be the individual species in their niches. If you lose a bolt here and there, say along the wings, maybe the plane can still fly for a while (i.e. maybe the food chain can still function). But if you keep losing them, at some point the whole thing is going to drop out of the sky (in other words, the collapse of the whole ecosystem). Of course if you lose one key species (the "Jesus Bolt," as you say), the rest of it collapses like a row of dominoes. The truly scary part is that we don't really know which species is the bolt that holds it all together.

Wishing you the best with your cover artist (I love the symbolism of the caribou on his jacket!), and with the future publication. One thing you might look into: see if there's a local writer's group that meets in your area. If it's a good group, they're wonderful for not only critiqueing/editing your work, but many also include published writers who can give you good advice about the technicalities of getting something published. Try Google, or ask at your library - they should at least be able to point you in the right direction.

If you think of it, drop me a PM when there's news on your book, just in case I should miss your announcement.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Will do with the PM
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 04:59 AM by symbolman
and thanks for the metaphor, another good one, says it all :)

Back to the grind, hard with a 2 year old around, can only write all night, then DEAL all day, but I'm doing this for him as much as for me, and the world if it wants it :)

Oh, and good luck with your ventures as well. Think about the Sci Fi Channel, for some reason they've been putting out incredible works lately, THE LOST ROOM was kick ass in case you missed it.
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Mendocino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
34.  The Prudhoe Bay facility produces twice as much air pollution as Washington DC.
It suffers 400 oil spills a year.

Production costs in domestic fields average between $5 and $7.50 a barrel versus about $1.50 for Saudi crude.

The Alaska pipeline is near the end of its functional life and is susceptible to accidents. (In 2001 a drunken hunter shot a hole in it, shutting it down for a week and spilling about 200,000 gallons of crude.)

Transporting this oil from the pipehead is risky. The oil companies have blocked plans for tankers to be escorted by tugs. Remember the Exxon Valdez

Just last summer and early fall the feeder pipelines were shut down because of corrosion, the oil companies have no comprehensive maintainence programs.

ANWR would produce at its peak, a million barrels a day. A modest 3 mpg increase in CAFE standards would easily match the production.

The 16 billion barrel estimate is based on technically recoverable, without regard to costs. Economically recoverable is about 6 billion barrels at todays prices, a mere 300 day supply. (US uses about 20 million barrels a day.)

The 2000 acre footprint is a gross underestimate, it only counts the space taken up by actual drilling facilities. As an earlier poster noted, it doesn't include roads, housing and compounds for crews, airports, helipads, pipelines, pumping stations, etc.

Drilling pads and roads would be built using local sources of gravel. Most would be scooped from river beds, likely ruining local fisheries. Other sources might be hills and glacial deposits, where scars and eroison would remain on the tundra for centuries.

Operating on winter snow and ice roads might not be practical , as global warming is melting the permafrost into soggy quagmires.

The effects on wildlife would go beyond that of just caribou. A study by the Alaska Science Center of the USGS detailed the damage to all wildlife that would occur if ANWR were developed. This report was rejected by Interior Secretary Gale Norton's office as "science fiction" and she gave the scientists ten days to produce a new, more agreeable report (the first study took 12 YEARS) The new report was only two pages long.

Should I go on? One more tidbit:

A whistle-blower that worked for BP Prudhoe for 22 years testified to the Senate that the company was putting workers lives and the environment at risk and that "working for BP is like working for a drunk driver that is your boss and insists on driving you home."
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. EXACTLY
and I've seen it all first hand. We even snuck into Deadhorse and ate at their facility when our camp food was running out (sort of stole a chopper to do it), and while I ate I watched a CARIBOU give birth in a pool of oil, the mother and baby died with black tongues.

The chemicals sit around in 55 gallon drums with chipmunks floating in them, and the cost to the wildlife is not only staggering in that locale, it will disrupt the FOOD CHAIN. Most of life in the Norhern Hemisphere begins in the Bering Sea, much of the weather is born there as well.

No one knows what will happen is they decimate so much life, as they say, a butterfly flaps it's wings in South America and there's a tornado in Illinois, it's all CONNECTED and we don't know where the breaking point is.

Imagine that between all the pollution dumped up there, and global warming, were we to lose PLANKTON in the seas up there.

Now tell me what the LARGEST animals in the world eat, that's right, PLANKTON. So much for Humpback whales. And so much for Oxygen as well, as a large percentage of Oxygen is CREATED by those litte plants and animals in the seas. The Sea is suffering from what would be considered ACIDOSIS in a human being, and the carbon dioxide creating that effect leaves another problem, the PH factor of the ocean as it acidifies will INCREASE global warming exponentially.

Some caribou herds have done okay, others are being destroyed - a person could say, "Well, there used to be 2 billion Humans on the planet when I was young, and NOW there are 8 billion, so I guess they're doing alright.."

As someone in Biafra if Humans are doing fine :)

Thanks for all that info, I'm hoping my book will reach joe sixpack, as an 'adventure' tale, with facts that may help them to argue these very points.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. besides the fact that it'll rape one of the last untouched areas on earth...
...for a 6 months supply of oil that will in all probability be sold to China? :shrug:
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. can you provide details on why it will be sold to China..
I have yet to see the reasons for this. thanks.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. When I lived in Fairbanks it was common knowledge
that much of the oil from the pipeline was being shipped on over to Japan.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Because of location...
...the crude would have to be sent far to the south (Texas I believe has the nearest continental refinement). Keep in mind that the crude harvested doesn't have to stay in the US, and petroleum companies have sold to the Chinese. It would seem probable given that there is only a 6 months supply that it would not be used domestically.

I find it appalling we're even debating this. Even IF the oil is used domestically, 6 months is nothing. 6 months of oil could be saved with stricter fuel requirements on all cars and I hope this is the result after the SC hears the State of MA VS the EPA.

This is truly one of the last unspoiled places on Earth. It must not be touched. Period.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. Not China, but Japan
China is mostly thirsty for the same light sweet crude we go after.

See post 60 for an explanation.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
38. From what I understand, there really isn't that much oil to be
extracted that makes the ecological compromises worth it.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. Because we need to save it for a potential emergency
Lets say that we suddenly found ourselves in a conflict that the US found itself in that wound up cutting off our foreign sources of oil. That would be a good time to start drilling in the ANWR because we have no alternatives. It's also a good reason to develop alternative energy sources but if said conflict happens before America ends its dependence on foreign oil then we'll be glad that we didn't drill into a year's worth of oil at best in a time when we didn't need it.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. We need to NEVER drill there
we just might KILL the planet, literally.

From what I understand, if many people changed LIGHT BULBS to more efficent ones and used energy saving devices in their homes, it would be equivalent to the oil produced (and it's very poor quality), from that region.

They've already done enough damage up there, having seen it in person, I am going to try to show it to everyone I can with my writing - I wish I could bring people THERE and let them SEE it, watch the heads pop up in the tundra, thousands of little eyes watching you.

I once flew over a Migrating herd of caribou, and at 2000 feet and 180 mph they filled in the tundra below, and from Horizon to Horizon I saw NOTHING but caribou, couldn't even see the ground under them, the ENTIRE Planet was ALIVE in all directions.

It was a spiritual experience, and so intense that here it is 35 some odd years later and I'm writing about it so that people can realize how precious and potentially fragile the earth is.

We don't need that oil, we need better science and a govt that doesn't treat real scientists like Coppernicus :)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. I think the OP was looking for talking points to use against RWers
I was giving him one that they will buy because it doesn't involve the environment.

But yes I agree that distrupting a valuable ecosystem for oil that we don't need and will probably never need is a stupid idea.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. Yes, I think you're right about the OP wanting talking points
And I know RWers aren't big on the environment, but that REALLY IS the main issue with drilling in this area.

Most people have never seen this area or understand it's impact on the planet. RWers use this to their advantage because the average person just thinks Alaska is just some big frozen wasteland (far from it), so if they start carving it up and drilling it like Texas, what's the harm?

Imagine a huge part of the Amazon rainforest needed to be cut and removed for oil drilling? That's sort of the equivalent of what they're doing here.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
41. The camel gets it's nose under the tent.
Anyone really think it will end with the first parcel being opened up?

I've got a bridge to sell ya..............
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LastLiberal in PalmSprings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #41
57. 'If I can make it there / I can make it anywhere...'
O.k., I know that's from the song "New York, New York", but the theory is the same. If we let them drill in the most pristine place in the United States, any future objection to drilling (or mining, etc.) offshore, in another wilderness area or even in a national park will be countered by "You let us drill in ANWR, so what's the big deal now?"
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
45. I have two reasons against drilling there
One: it doesn't even come close to "substantially" providing additional oil. It's a token drilling project, and above all, the symbolic value of ANWR is what drives the oil drillers.

Two: what part in "Arctic National Wildlife Refuge" don't the oil driller understand? Get and stay out, out, out!
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. HERE HERE!
Your mouth to god's ear :)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
53. We are talking about desecrating a national refuge
Back in my father's youth he lived in a dirt poor town which was a haven for the Mafia. Every month a couple of thugs would come by his houes of 9 kids and pass out food and clothing. As far as they were concerned, the Mafia was harmless and welcome. Not so for those who were negatively impacted by the crimes they committed.

I make this point because one of the excuses folks use to justify the continuance of the oil relationship with Alaska is the patronage that these oil companies pay to the village of Kaktovik and others. Funding schools, as they tout, is certainly a worthwhile enterprise, so is an income for disadvantaged residents there. But at what cost to the community, state, and the environment? What will happen to these communities when the oil is depleted? What will be left of the land that many once relied on as a renewable resourse for food and substinence?

These defenders should also remember, we are talking about desecrating a national refuge. While native Alaskans may have a special interest because of their proximity and use of the refuge, the land is a preserve entrusted and bequeathed to all Americans.

Here is my supporting data from a series of reports:

From a 2003 GAO report on the impact of oil exploration and production on refuges: (http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-04-192T )

First, "The National Wildlife Refuge System is a national asset established principally for the conservation of wildlife and habitat."

"Constructing,operating,and maintaining the infrastructure necessary to produce oil and gas can harm wildlife by reducing the quantity and quality of habitat.Infrastructure development can reduce the quality of habitat through fragmentation,which occurs when a network of roads,canals, and other infrastructure is constructed in previously undeveloped areas of a refuge.Fragmentation increases disturbances from human activities, provides pathways for predators,and helps spread nonnative plant species.For example,officials at Anahuac and McFaddin National Wildlife Refuges in Texas said that disturbances from oil and gas activities are likely significant and expressed concern that bird nesting may be disrupted."

"Infrastructure networks can also damage refuge habitat by changing the hydrology of the refuge ecosystem,particularly in coastal areas.In addition,industrial activities associated with extracting oil and gas have been found to contaminate wildlife refuges with toxic substances such as mercury and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs). Mercury and PCBs were used in equipment such as compressors,transformers,and well production meters,although generally they are no longer used."

" . . . improvements in technology may allow operators to avoid placing wells in sensitive areas such as wetlands.However,oil and gas infrastructure continues to diminish the availability of refuge habitat for wildlife,and spills of oil,gas, and brine that damage fish and wildlife continue to occur.In addition, several refuge managers reported that operators do not always comply with legal requirements or follow best industry practices,such as constructing earthen barriers around tanks to contain spills,covering tanks to protect wildlife,and removing pits that temporarily store fluids used during well maintenance."


From a 2003 National Academy of Science report on the 'Cumulative Environmental Effects of Oil and Gas Activities on Alaska's North Slope.':(http://www.nap.edu/books/0309087376/html )

Firsthand Input to the Report
To gain diverse views and pers-pectives,
the committee traveled to
Alaska several times during the course
of its two-year study. The committee
heard from federal and state agencies,
representatives of the oil and gas
industry, environmental organizations,
and officials and community members
of the North Slope Borough and the
municipalities it visited: Barrow, Kaktovik,
and Nuiqsut. It also visited Arctic Village
and toured oil facilities at Prudhoe Bay,
Endicott, and Alpine, and flew over
Kuparuk, the offshore Northstar facility,
the National Petroleum Reserve-Alaska
and the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Roads. Roads have had effects as far-reaching and
complex as any physical component of the North
Slope oil fields. In addition to their direct effects on
the tundra, indirect effects are caused by dust,
roadside flooding, thawing of permafrost, and
roadside snow accumulation. Roads and activities
on them also alter animal habitat and behavior and
wildland values.

Damage to Tundra from Off-Road Travel.
Surface erosion, water flow and tundra vegetation
on the North Slope have been altered by extensive
off-road travel. Some damage has persisted for
decades. The current 3-dimensional survey method
requires a high density of seismic-exploration trails.
Networks of these trails now cover extensive areas
and are readily visible from the air, degrading visual
experiences of the North Slope. Despite technological
improvements and increased care taken by operators,
the potential for damage to the tundra still exists
because of the large number of vehicles and camps
used for exploration.

Effects on Animal Populations.
Bowhead whales’ fall migrations have been displaced by the
noise of seismic exploration. Garbage and food
provided by people working in oil fields have resulted
in higher than normal densities of predators (such as
brown bears, arctic foxes, ravens, and glaucous gulls)
that prey on the eggs, nestlings, and fledglings of birds.
As a result, the reproduction rates of some bird species
such as black brant, snow geese, eiders, and probably
some shorebirds in industrial areas are, at least in
some years, insufficient to balance death rates. These
populations may persist in the oil fields only because
of immigration of individuals from source areas where
birth rates exceed death rates.


Interference with Subsistence Activities. The
Inupiat Eskimo people of the North Slope have a
centuries-old nutritional and cultural relationship
with the bowhead whale. Most view offshore
industrial activity—both observed effects and the
possibility of a major oil spill—as a threat to the
bowhead whale and, thereby, to their cultural
survival. Because noise from exploratory drilling and
marine seismic exploration have caused fall
migrating bowhead whales to change their
movements, subsistence hunters have been forced to
travel greater distances to find whales, increasing
their risk of exposure to adverse weather and the
likelihood that a whale’s tissues will have
deteriorated before the carcass can be landed. Recent
agreements concerning the timing and placement of
exploration in the fall have reduced the effects on
subsistence hunters.

The Gwich’in Indians of northeast Alaska and
northwest Canada have a centuries-old nutritional
and cultural relationship with the Porcupine Caribou
Herd. Most Gwich’in oppose any oil development
that would threaten the herd, especially on the
calving ground, which they consider sacred, and
thereby threaten their cultural survival. These threats
have accumulated because repeated attempts to
develop areas used by the herd have occurred and
will probably continue to occur.

Response of North Slope Cultures to
Declining Revenues. For North Slope residents,
the current way of life of North Slope communities
made possible by oil and gas activities will be more
difficult to maintain when these activities cease as
oil is depleted because other sources of funds appear
to be modest. Eventual adjustments to reduced
financial resources are unavoidable. Their nature
and extent will be shaped by adaptations North Slope
communities have made to the accumulated effects
of the cash economy.

Legacy of Abandoned Infrastructure and
Unrestored Landscapes. The network of roads,
pads and pipelines, and infrastructure that support
production will likely remain in place for many years
to come.

Social Changes in North Slope Communities.
Most North Slope residents have positive views of
many of the economic changes that have resulted
from revenue generated by petroleum activities, such
as access to better medical care, availability of gas
heat for houses, improved plumbing, and higher
personal incomes. At the same time, however,
balancing the economic benefits of oil activities
against the accompanying loss of traditional culture
and other societal problems that can occur is often a
dilemma for North Slope residents. Without this
revenue, the North Slope Borough, the Alaska Native
Claims Settlement Act, and hence the Arctic Slope
Regional Corporation, would not exist or, if they did,
would bear little resemblance to their current form.
This discovery of oil and its development on the North
Slope has resulted in major, important, and probably
irreversible changes to the way of life in communities.
These effects accumulate because they arise from
several ongoing, interacting causes.

Cumulative Aesthetic, Cultural, and Spiritual
Consequences. Many activities associated with oil
development have compromised wildland and
scenic values over large areas. Some Alaska Natives
told the committee that they violate what they call
“the spirit of the land,” a value central to their
relationship with the environment. These
consequences have increased in proportion to the
area affected by development, and they will persist
as long as the landscape remains altered.


Finally, I would point out that this particular exploration and development is by no means assured of producing the revenue that may have characterized other oil development in Alaska.

From a report entitled, 'FALSE PROFITS: The Business Case against Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.':

"This report demonstrates what should be obvious to any investor, executive, or decision-maker: Refuge drilling is not likely to meet the investment criteria used by the major oil companies. Oil from the Refuge would be extremely expensive to find and transport to market. Since Arctic drilling is a politically charged, high profile environmental issue, a company choosing to drill in the Refuge also could suffer damage to its shareholder value and brand image, as Exxon did following the Valdez spill in 1989.

Using the companies’ own assessment criteria, drilling of any sort in the coastal plain of the Arctic Refuge would be a high-cost, low rewards investment. The multi-national oil giant BP has indicated—by action if not by so many words—that it may agree. In November 2002, BP withdrew from Arctic Power, which lobbies on behalf of the oil industry and state of Alaska to open up the Arctic Refuge to drilling. BP’s decision to abstain from the political debate came in the midst of other moves to diversify away from drilling in Alaska’s “frontier” areas. In doing so, BP sent an important message that reinforces the one detailed in this report: drilling in the Arctic Refuge is not a sound investment, politically or economically."

Using the companies’ own assessment criteria, drilling in the coastal plain of the Arctic Refuge is an unattractive investment. Oil from the Arctic Refuge would be extremely expensive to find and transport to market. According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the Arctic Refuge would not produce any economically recoverable oil until reaching a price of $17.17/barrel (in 2003 dollars), assuming a 12 percent return on the companies’ investment. This fails the major oil companies’ investment criteria in four fundamental ways:

• Most major oil companies assess potential projects such as the Arctic Refuge using lower oil price assumptions, ranging from $12.70 to $16.20 (normalized to Alaskan North Slope (ANS) crude prices).

• Even at low price evaluations, oil companies today routinely require a return on capital from their investments of between 13 and 18 percent; none of the major companies use a figure as low as 12 percent as the standard rate of return. An investment involving greater risk, such as the Arctic Refuge, would need to offer an even higher return for the companies to consider investing.

• According to USGS estimates, North Slope oil prices would have to sell at more than $19 ANS before oil companies would begin to see the returns of up to 18 percent that they demand.

• The USGS figures do not include lease payments to the federal government and state of Alaska, increasing the cost of drilling and further eroding the economics of Refuge oil. In addition to being expensive, Arctic Refuge oil also is fraught with risk. In the aftermath of the Enron scandal – where undisclosed financial risks cost shareholders billions of dollars – these risks deserve the fullest scrutiny.

• Insecurity of the Alaskan Pipeline. Any company planning to drill in the Arctic Refuge would be placing a multi-billion dollar bet on the security and stability of a single, aging, indefensible pipeline. The only way to transport North Slope oil to market is through the 800-
mile Trans Alaska Pipeline System, which passes through some of the wildest places left on earth. In today’s uncertain world climate, betting billions of investment dollars on the security of a single pipeline is a high risk in and of itself, let alone the other possible
environmental risks involved with Arctic Refuge drilling.

• Risk to Shareholder Value and Brand Equity. Arctic Refuge drilling is an extremely prominent and divisive issue in the United States. A majority of Americans opposes drilling the Arctic Refuge, and substantial public outrage likely awaits any company that invests in
Arctic Refuge drilling. Public backlash against a company that drills in the Arctic Refuge could reduce profits, tarnish the company’s brand image and damage shareholder value.

• Alaska is a Declining Oil Province. A company investing in Arctic Refuge oil would be investing in the long-term future of a declining province, one marked by harsh conditions, high fixed costs, deteriorating infrastructure, and geology that flummoxes even a major
company like BP.


Regardless of the political dynamic surrounding this issue, the question remains the same. Can oil companies profitably pump out the short supply of oil that lies beneath the Refuge? The answer, when considering issues of concern to the major oil companies, is no.

CONCLUSION
A company investing in Refuge oil would be investing in the long-term future of a declining province, one marked by harsh conditions, high fixed costs, deteriorating infrastructure, and complicated geology. Refuge oil appears to fail all of the oil companies’ strict investment criteria. In addition, Refuge investment carries a high degree of risk, ranging from dependence on a single, aging and highly vulnerable pipeline, to the significant political threats the project poses to brand image and shareholder value. In short, from an investment point of view, there appears to be no economically recoverable oil in the coastal plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. For all of these reasons, drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is a high-risk, low-reward investment. By taking a stand against Arctic Refuge drilling now, companies can secure the public’s goodwill, improve the value of their brands, and demonstrate to shareholders their commitment to fiscal discipline and corporate responsibility.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
66. ANWR is pretty symbolic-Rethugs look on it as a "gateway"
I should try and dig this up (I have it somewhere) but in 2003 I believe, Tom Delay told some special interest group (I think-my memory is fuzzy) that "If we can open up ANWR for drilling, we can drill anywhere. Every National Park will be on the table" or something like that.
And thats the general Repuke attitude towards ANWR.

Personally, I think we should be moving away from oil dependance instead of settling for these quick fixes. But, the significance or symbolism associated with ANWR make it an issue very well worth fighting for.
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