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When the "surge" fails for Bush, what then?

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:17 PM
Original message
When the "surge" fails for Bush, what then?
My fear is that the idiotchild will follow LBJ's example of trying to win with even more force.

Will he resort to more troops after the initial "surge"?

Will he resort to indiscriminate bombing?

Wars with Iran or Syria?

In his, and his lackeys', quest to save face, how far will he go?

I don't believe that most Americans are as unhappy about the war as they are with the lack of "success" in the war. I have the appalling feeling that if Bush were to bomb Baghdad as tactic, most Americans would welcome it as an indication of "accomplishment" and "doing something" and hope for the "silver bullet" effect of whatever course is proffered as an alternative to the frustrating and fruitless current policy that only increases the carnage.

I remember, all too well, the endless "plans" for victory in Vietnam. Bombing Hanoi, Bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail, the Phoenix Program, the "Fortified Village Program", "Incursions" into Cambodia and Laos. All the supposedly magical solutions dreamt up by the generals and politicians that promised "victory", then "success", then "peace with honor".





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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think W will resort to straight tequila shots.
:(
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm gonna start drinking that shit again
in large amounts if this if we don't figure out a way to stop this pox on humanity named Bush.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. yep me too and thats the last thing I need to be doing, going back to drinking
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. the difference is LBJ had an army
he truly doesn't
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. That's one of the things that worries me. He does have an Air Force.
With lots of nifty high tech bombs that will provide exciting videos to the public of dazzling "victories" that don't involve losing American lives.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Even an F-117 is vulnerable if you put
enough lead in the air...
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itsmesgd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. he'll retire
and leave the mess for someone else to clean up while he spends his Carlyle money
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. After he shots his load
there will be a withdrawal of troops and he will claim credit.
What could a few hundred more lives be worth to this man?
So far he has been the coward hiding behind Rummy and Dick. Now he will lead the charge to the ultimate retreat and pretend he had it planned all along.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. My fear is that the democrats will jump when the idiot child tells them to
"temporarily" of course....Now that I heard Reid's lunacy, I lost all hope.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. the congressional democrats?
Nawwww. They'd never go along with king george on invading, umm, never mind.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. None of the above.
I think he'll try to the keep the status quo as long as he can, optimally until January, 2009 when someone else can take the blame for the mess. The "surge" is the appearance of doing something without the expectation of a result.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Where will numbnutz get the troops to do all this?
Keep sending the same people back until they are so depleted mentally, physically and by number that they have to institute the draft?

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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. He Wants to Get The Democrats to Institute the Draft
They need the draft to expand the war into Iran and Syria.
It would be electoral suicide, of course.
So their plan is to get the Democrats to commit electoral suicide instead.

He'll go on abusing the Army to the breaking point and beyond,
until the Democrats institute the draft, out of "fairness".
Then the Democrats get all the blame when everbody's kids start coming home in boxes.

We must not fall into the trap!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. he will go as far as "the opposition" lets him -- it's up to us DEMs
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tierra, that's a real blast from the past! You are so right.
I remember all of that from Vietnam. Then the encroachment of North Vietnamese troops in the South. Then, wham, the people scrambling to get on the helicopter to get the hell out.

This is indeed where we are heading. Deja vu all over again.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Surge and Purge
isn't about time to flush this turd adminstration?

They have failed at everything.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. Why, there will be the RE-surge, aided by some HUGH!!1 event
A HUGH!!1 event that will make it impossible to say NO to.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Cheney/Bush have virtually guaranteed that OPEC will embargo oil to the US.
Never before in our history have we alienated the Middle Eastern nations so comprehensively. What I fear will happen is that their retaliation (supported by other nations that stand to benefit), which is virtually certain over the next 10-20 years, will be met with a "national security" mandate to increase our military occupation by orders of magnitude. It WILL happen. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell we're EVER going to reverse the damage done by this administration - particularly not without impeaching, removing, and prosecuting them for war crimes. In my view, that's not only mandated domestically due to their violations of the Constitution and treaties, it's mandated internationally to prevent the virtually CERTAIN backlash over the next 10-20 years. The considerations of party politics pales in comparison to the coming international catastrophes we face.



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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The first thing needed and probably the last thing resorted to.
That would be the admission of failure and guilt. Not so much by the administration, which will never do so, but by the American people and the politicians that represent us.

I certainly agree that impeachment, trial, and punishment should be the first thing on the agenda. That to prove that we have acknowledged that we allowed this to happen. That it's up to us to do what we can to rectify what we have allowed to happen. The vast majority of the people of this country applauded Bush when he sought and prosecuted the war and the crimes that it all so obviously entailed.

We castigate (rightfully) other countries for not prosecuting their criminal leaders (Argentina, Chile, Cambodia, Serbia, come to mind) but balk at doing so with our own. To my mind, that puts us in the same league, as a country, as the others and for the same reasons. We, the American People, cannot play the "good Germans" who opposed Hitler but denied any responsibility for allowing the bloodiest war in history or knowledge of the holocaust.

The rest of the world is blaming "America" for the crimes committed in Iraq and elsewhere. Not the individual Americans but America. And, we will receive the brunt of the backlash that's coming. The rich and powerful will successfully fend for themselves as always. The rest of us will be left listening to the pundits explain how this all happened as we wait in line for our dollop of gas.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. Indeed. If we fail to hold these criminals accountable, it's over.
Endgame.

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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm going to go slightly off-topic and then address your main point.

I don't believe that most Americans are as unhappy about the war as they are with the lack of "success" in the war. I have the appalling feeling that if Bush were to bomb Baghdad as tactic, most Americans would welcome it as an indication of "accomplishment" and "doing something" and hope for the "silver bullet" effect of whatever course is proffered as an alternative to the frustrating and fruitless current policy that only increases the carnage.


This is an important point, and it's necessary to think about this to understand the political reality in the US, which will determine how and when we leave. It is my belief that most Americans are unhappy with the war for reasons that are quite different than the reasons most DUers dislike the war.

Most of us here disliked it from the beginning, on general principle. It was illegal,
and unjustified. It had a high chance of failure. It made no sense and would kill thousands of innocent pepople. Most Americans, in my experience, are not angry about the war because of these reasons. I doubt many Americans could tell you how many civilians have been killed in Iraq, but I suspect that most of them think the number is far, far lower than it actually appears to be if the Lancet report is to be believed.

In my view, Americans are fundamentally unhappy with the war because we are losing. At a very basic level, I think that most Americans believe that it is wrong, morally wrong, for the US to lose a war. Again, this is a very different way of viewing the situation, but that is the political reality in the US as I see it.

Now, to address your question. What happens when the surge fails? The surge will fail. That much seemse certain. Even the AEI in their idiotic powerpoint dog & pony admits that it has the potential to cause huge problems. We are screwed no matter what we do. Let's say we go in with the idea of getting rid of Sadr's personal army. That seems to be the course being advocated by the various morons who think we can still influence the political reality of Iraq. What happens then? What about the Badr Corps? If they see the Mahdi Army being cut down, it will be an opportunity to become the dominant Shiite militia in the country. They will act accordingly, probably by slaughtering Sadr's people alongside us. And what of the Sunni insurgents while this is going on? If there is a power struggle on the Shia side, precipitated by our decision to go after one particular Shiite militia, they will probably see it as an opportunity to divide and conquer, and will do whatever they can to undermine the Mahdi Army, the Badr Corps, and the central government even further. If we decide to go after the Sunni insurgents, they will react violently, probably against both us and the central government. And the Shiite militias will see it as an opportunity to get rid of the Sunni troublemakers once and for all. If we go in and attack both sides, the result will likely be utter chaos, as we will be seen as being against all Iraqis.

There seems to be no way of resolving this. Regardless of who we attack, the other side will take advantage of it knowing that sooner or later we will leave. And there's no way for us to attack all of the belligerents without turning Iraqi public opinion against us and the government, even more than it is now.

So, the surge will fail. When and how are the questions. Let's think about a probable timeline for the surge. Nothing is getting done until the Democrats are seated in Congress in january, that much is for certain. Bush cannot simply implement this on his own. He will need the backing of congress. So that puts us into late January before we even think about doing it. Now let's say it gets approved immediately. It will take what - one or two months to prepare? Now we're into March or April before it even begins. Who knows what's happened in Iraq between then and now. Likely, things will just get that much worse. So let's be generous and say that the surge starts in early March. Let's be even more generous and say that at a basic level it does improve the security situation in Baghdad rapidly, so that by May or June the city is no longer playing host to hundreds of civilian deaths every day. Or maybe other areas of the country stabilize because the militias are too busy dealing with Baghdad to wreak havoc elsewhere. This is an unlikely outcome, but not impossible. At this point, Bush will be able to claim that the surge has worked. This could mean real trouble, because of course the surge did not work at all - all it did was temporarily suppress violence or move it elsewhere. But there is the possibility that it could give Bush the leg room to say that we should stay for longer, or with more troops.

Anyway, all of that it somewhat of a digression from the main point I wish to make, which is this: Bush and Cheney are trying to run out the clock. They are trying their damndest not to have to pull out before their term
ends. This buys them another 4-7 months, depending on how things go. And God only knows what might happen in Iraq by June or July of next year. It's very difficult to say with any certainty.

An alternate scenario is that the surge fails miserably - violence continues or worsens in Baghdad, US casualties increase (this seems inevitable) and the government spirals even further into the abyss. At that point I think it would be nearly impossible for Bush to continue the war. He might try, as always, by manipulating reality - saying things are better when they aren't, for example. Given enough effective bullshit, they might be able to stall for a few more months, citing bogus statistics about progress that has occured, is occuring, or is about to occur. But if the surge fails in this way, then it will be the end of the war. Bush will not be able to run out the clock for two years. It is simply impossible. And when Congress has to force Bush to withdraw, all hell will break loose in American politics.
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ribrepin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks for the analysis and I think you are dead on
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Thanks for the analysis. I agree with minor differences.
I differ only in that I believe that what is planned is escalation under the rubric of "stabilizing" Iraq so the "Iraqis can govern themselves." Which in itself is utter hypocrisy and nonsensical. For the Iraqis to "govern" themselves will mean that one side or the other will take power and punish the other side which may temporarily quell some of the violence. A very doubtful proposition at best.

I believe that the "surge" will be followed by another "surge" or, because of the lack of troops, a bombing campaign with the standard "regrets" about "unfortunate" civilian casualties.

In any event, the "surge" is a recipe for disaster far exceeding what we have already seen there.

I also disagree that Bush & Cheney are trying to merely run out the clock. They are being told by the lackey Pentagon that they can still achieve "Victory" or "success", or at least go down in history as having tried to avert the coming consequences by doing "everything" they could but were defeated by a hostile press and the "liberal cut-and-runners". The same "stab in the back" scenario used by the right-wing to justify the loss in SE Asia.

I certainly hope that my prognostication is wrong. I can't say that I hope yours is right because both are horrible.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Actually, we're not in disagreement.
I do believe that Bush fully intends to make the "surge" permanent.


I believe that the "surge" will be followed by another "surge" or, because of the lack of troops, a bombing campaign with the standard "regrets" about "unfortunate" civilian casualties.


I don't think there can be more than one. This is really the last chance for Bush.


I certainly hope that my prognostication is wrong. I can't say that I hope yours is right because both are horrible.


Yeah, I don't like having these horrible thoughts. I tried to provide as upbeat of an analysis as I thought possible, but from my point of view we're completely fucked, with no chance of fixing it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Is it just me or does anyone else think this war is again being
manipulated by BushCo so they can retain control of the Thug party?

They don't give a damn if we win or lose the "war". They never have, imho.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I would say...
...that Bush's control over the Republican Party at this point is nonexistent. Quite frankly, he barely seems to have control over his own administration. As for your assertion that he never cared whether we won the war, his loss of the war has had no tangible political benefits whatsoever - quite the opposite, it seems to have fucked him.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I think you're confusing Bush with BushCo. Junior's use of
whatever power is ceded to him by the Cabal has been a disaster. But, since everyone got a little richer, it hasn't mattered very much if you take the long view.

But I'm wondering what they hope to gain from deploying more troops into an obviously lost effort -- unless it's to pacify the Saudis? And maybe to prop up their failure one more time, and long enough for the Democrats to take office. I bet they can't wait to start blaming the Democrats for losing the war.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. This deserves its own thread
It is probably exactly what they are planning. Simply delay the inevitable and run out the clock until they are gone and then dump this thing on the next administration.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. the "surge" will eat up the rest of his misbegotten term
then the next president will be saddled with an even worse problem in Iraq

along with an economy in even worse meltdown

and an environment that will be killing us faster than we can fix it

and a world that hates us even more than they do now

and a nest of ex-president vermin breeding and scheming from their hideaway in Paraguay
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Here is another "What if"....
What if al Sadr knowing that the US Regime is determined to kill him and as many of his Mahdi Army as possible decides to declare a peace with the Sunni Insurgency and partner up with them to rid Iraq of the US/UK Ocuupiers and the Sunnis agree?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Woohoo!
then we can shock and awe again and everything will be fine!
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
28. If it's like Nam, it'll be one more surge. They just did this shit in Baghdad this summer.
Didn't work then, won't work now. More blood and gore and guts.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. One More Big Push . . .
Followed by one more maximum effort . . .

Followed by one more major action . . .

Followed by one more . . .

Because we all know we are turning the corner and there is light at the end of the tunnel and ultimate victory is within reach and . . .
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cool user name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
33. As long as he's not held accountable ...
... he will continue to do what he wants.

"Impeachment is off the table."

Words of wisdom. :sarcasm:

:eyes:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
34. KandR for great insight.
NT!

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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
36. Question: What does Bush expect from 30,000 US. troop surge?
In surgents can take five, replenish weap
Then the shit hits the fan again, outcome all those well placed snipers to make their accomplished shooters are going to score. Rumsfeld blew it bigtime by invading with too low numbers and then the fool fires the Iraqi Army,,,dumb-dumb-dumb!!
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
37. It will end McCain's bid for presidency
I don't think McCain thought * would ever do it, so he could campaign on the "...if they had listened to me" platform. Well, they listened to him, and its not going to make a bit of difference. Buh Bye John
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