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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:33 PM
Original message
Regarding Reid's statement about "the surge."
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 04:37 PM by yibbehobba
Many threads are touching on this issue today, and I feel it's important to have some of the context for his remarks. There's a lot of vitriol being thrown in his direction at the moment. Some of it is justified, some of it isn't.

Let's start by taking a look at what he actually said:

"If the commanders on the ground said this is just for a short period of time, we'll go along with that," said the Democratic senator, citing a time frame such as two months to three months. But a period longer than that, such as 18 months to 24 months, would be unacceptable, he said.

"The American people will not allow this war to go on as it has. It simply is a war that will not be won militarily. It can only be won politically," Reid said. "We have to change course in Iraq."


So let's break this down to its subatomic structure. First off, he's not necessarily supporting "the surge." What he's saying is that he might support it, but only in the context of a larger plan to completely withdraw from Iraq by 2008, and only if the military leadership requested it. And he makes clear that this is not a solution to the problems of Iraq. This is a far cry from supporting extended escalation in Iraq, which is what some people seem to be accusing him of advocating.

I would now like to call attention to a passage from page fifty of the Iraq Study Group's report:

Because of the importance of Iraq to our regional security goals and to our ongoing fight
against al Qaeda, we considered proposals to make a substantial increase (100,000 to 200,000)
in the number of U.S. troops in Iraq. We rejected this course because we do not believe that the
needed levels are available for a sustained deployment. Further, adding more American troops
could conceivably worsen those aspects of the security problem that are fed by the view that the
U.S. presence is intended to be a long-term “occupation.” We could, however, support ashort termm
redeployment or surge of American combat forces to stabilize Baghdad, or to speed up the
training and equipping mission, if the U.S. commander in Iraq determines that such steps would
be effective.


As you can see, Reid's statement is effectively a reiteration of the ISG position on increased troop levels, and the necessity of a political rather than military solution. Reid's statement is almost word-for-word from the report. So in my opinion we should take this as an indication that Reid supports the ISG report, nothing more.

So why is Reid supporting a rather dubious statement from the ISG report? My suspicion is that he is working from Baker's statement that the report should not be treated like a "fruit salad" in which some recommendations could be accepted while others would be rejected. Were Reid to reject this portion of the report (which is not actually a recommendation, but is background material) it may well give Bush the cover he needs to reject the portions of the report that he finds unacceptable, such as engaging in diplomacy with Syria and Iran. According to Baker, etc., if the ISG report is to be the framework under which we withdraw, then it must be taken as a whole.

Anyway, that's my take on what this all means. I don't like it, but at the same time I don't think Reid is really suggesting we "stay the course." The ISG doesn't recommend this course of action, and neither does Reid - but both leave the door open to it as a possibility, but only in the context of a phased withdrawal.

Edit: C&P errors.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. So sayeth the Iraqi Study Group...Amen...n/t
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yup.
That's pretty much the way it is at the moment. It sucks, but I don't see much of an appetite for going against it, on either side of the aisle.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. 1 question, how do those that support this short time make sure it is short?
How do they hold it to a short time? Seems like once the troops get over there that Mr.bush can do whatever the hell he continues to want.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. You can't.
We aren't necessarily talking about the actual deployment of troops here. This is all so much political maneuvering. We'll see what happens when it comes to Congressional approval for "the surge." This is all very much theory right now.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I know we are talking "maybes" but still, should ask this question of them all.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I was making this point earlier in another thread.
It seems clear to me that Bush is intending to increase troop levels permanently. It would be my hope that any congressional approval of an increase in troop levels would also explicitly declare an end date for such a "surge" regardless of any progress that is made on the ground, or any other benchmarks. Honestly, I'd rather not see it at all, but I doubt that we will be able to stop it.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. So, if James Baker is supporting Saudis against 911 families, will Reid follow
suit on that one too?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes.
He's actually a Republican. And he eats babies. Democratic babies.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I was dead serious. It's good that Reid doesn't go further than the ISG pro-war
(as I originally thought). But following ISG so blindly that even Timmy reacted: "how do you know it's temporary" is not excusable.
Sorry I can't be that cavalier as you about killing more people - the subject tends to sadden and anger me.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. What?
How dare you accuse me of having a "cavalier" attitude towards killing people? I'm not supporting this shit. My best friend in the world is a truck driver in al Anbar right now. He has literally the most dangerous job in the world, and I will not be at all surprised if he is dead and in fifteen pieces in a box when he comes home, if he comes home at all. I don't like seeing people come home in boxes any more than you do. I don't like seeing hundreds of thousands of civilians blown up any more than you. All I was trying to do in this thread was explain why I think Reid is doing what he's done. I'm sorry if I was inadequately outraged for you. My outrage, and my pain over this war are private matters, and I will be damned if I'm forced to reduce myself to silly platitudes and hand-wringing when talking about this war and its political consequences in order to justify my antiwar credentials on an internet discussion forum.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Your 'eating democratic babies' remark had me fooled.
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 05:08 PM by The Count
I was making the point that James Baker is hardly someone whose advice we should rely on and you made a joke of it.
This Reid piece of news today was the single, most depressing one since the elections. I was filled with hope that the democrats will not enable the lunatic - now they'll let him kill "temporarily" even more people.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. James Baker is not the issue.
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 05:16 PM by yibbehobba
I made that joke because I think the obsession of some DUers with the James Baker element of this story is utterly pointless. Whether or not Baker had anything to do with the report is totally irrelevant at this point. It doesn't matter if the report was written by Baker, Hitler, Jesus, Caligula, Plato, or Frank Zappa. It is what it is, and what it is, like it or not, is the establishment/consensus view on how to get out of Iraq. It is wrong on a fundamental level in many, many ways. I do not support most of its conclusions. Nor do the majority of Democrats I know.

As for this being the most disappointing piece of news since the elections, do you not think that Bush's attempts to ignore all reason and escalate the war are far, far more disturbing than a vague, noncommittal comment by Reid? I'm sorry, but if this is the worst thing that's happened since the election for you, then you should consider yourself lucky. Why don't you wait until we're actually having the real discussion over the "surge" before you pass judgment on people who've not yet even assumed leadership roles?

Anyway, I'm sorry that I decided to attempt to get in the way of all the vitriol. Obviously, shrieking about this is the way forward.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Question on the babies?
Would that be boiled or barbecued?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Call Reid's office.
When he's done ensuring that the United States is in Iraq until the year 2034, I'm sure he'll be able to share some recipes.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. On to Iraq.
Scenario one, the Congress proposes and passes a resolution requiring bushchenny to request a formal declaration of war embedded in the next Iraq supplemental budget request? If they want the funds, then make the war "official" and comply with the war powers act.
Scenario two, the pentagon does a Nancy Regan and "just says NO". Sorry but we are all out of combat capable units like we've been telling you. So come back in let's say six months and we are good to go. Maybe.
Scenario three, Israel nukes Tehran and the Shiite has hit the fan big time. Or as the Saud's have demanded, you leaded or unleaded?
Just asking.
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is the "ISG Report" now the gold standard?
It's nothing but a fig leaf for bush -- kind of a combination of "stay the course" and "new way forward." In other words, it's nothing more than the bush family's usual coterie of suspects trying to put lipstick on the pig that is "W."

Anyone, including the milquetoast Reid, who doesn't demand an immediate withdrawal, including immediate de-funding of the crime if necessary, is just another partner in this ongoing crime against humanity.

In another two years, we could have a genocide in Iraq on a scale comparable to the holocaust.

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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I agree completely with your statement about genocide.
Iraq is already approaching the level of casualties last seen in the Rwandan genocide. I do not like the ISG report. It is wrong in many, many ways. But it seems silly to dispute that it is now the "gold standard," because it is. And Reid's statement was intended to support it. I'm not trying to state that it's right or wrong, I'm simply trying to explain why he's doing what he's doing.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. ISG: blame the Democrat in 09. nt.
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judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. your case is very well said and makes quite a bit of sense
I don't believe that we can just pull the troops out immediately. Unfortunately an escalation of troops for a short period of time might be necessary to move forward in this quagmire that * created.


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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I believe that increasing troop levels in any way is totally counterproductive.
People keep interpereting my statements as being supportive of increasing troop levels. I'm not supportive of that. At all. It will only lead to more pain, suffering, and death.
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judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. I don't think anyone is truly supportive of increasing troop levels
(except the war mongers) but with that said. It may be something that is necessary to get the situation in Iraq under control. Its a terrible situation for the troops especially. I hope it does not come to that.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. As part of a plan to get out
That's what he said on Stephenopoulos today. He would consider it if it were part of a plan to get out. I haven't seen that caveat written ANYWHERE, including on DU which is disgusting. I am so sick of people willing to twist reality to attack anybody for anything. It doesn't do any good at all. I don't think this surge thing is a good idea at all, but if it's somehow part of the entire ISG withdrawal plan, then maybe Reid has to consider it in order to continue to support the ISG.

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. That changes things somewhat, I agree. Still, allowing Jr any more room to
destroy, smacks of the IWR moment all over again. He was supposed to report to Congress every 6 months on war, right? I wonder whatever came of that?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. I don't support the "surge"
But I do understand Reid hedging a bit, considering the plan is part of the ISG recommendations. Let Bush come out with this full plan before attacking, otherwise they'll just spin everything around until 'surge' means withdrawal and withdrawal means attack.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. One minor thing...
I made the mistake in another thread of suggesting that the ISG supported the "surge" as one of their recommendations. This is actually untrue. None of the ISG's recommendations advocate a surge in troop strength. Rather, this statement is included as background. I interpret this to mean that the ISG did not see fit to recommend even a temporary increase in troop strength, yet left open the door to such an increase, probably due to the belief that explicitly discouraging such a development would constitute an unreasonable limit on the powers of the executive. Given what we've heard about the ISG's internal deliberations so far, it appears that they were very worried about Bush outright rejecting their proposals (which he has done) and thus watered down their report. Increases in troop strength are mentioned nowhere else in the ISG report. This leads me to believe that the inclusion of support for a surge was really nothing more than an attempt to placate Bush.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Which follows what Reid did
Left the door open in order to avoid getting bogged down in Bushisms. He prefaced his statement about the additional troops with 'as part of a withdrawal plan', and included reference to considering the generals' requests and strategy. He then put the focus back on diplomacy, which is what we really need to be talking about. Any reference to a 'surge' in the ISG is going to be interpreted as supportive and the Bush's are going to run with it, which means Reid has to deal with it.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. That is because regardless of the 'caveat'
escalation will not get us out, it will get us further in.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. how long before we have to leave walking backwards and shooting into the armed mobs..??
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. 1) The ISG is a pile of malformed crap.
2) escalation is escalation.

Two months after we raise combat troop strength to almost 200,000 Iraq will still be a mess. There will however be more dead Iraqis, and probably more dead Americans. What then? What do you suppose will happend when 200,000 doesn't do it?

The way to end this war is to stop funding it.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. Recommended and kicked
Agreed. DUers sometimes jump to confusions, posting flames when they haven't read the whole thing. I do that myself sometimes, although I try not to.

One reason why DU is such a good place, is that our self-policing on these matters is quite good.

Good job.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
30. I support a *short term* protest against this Senator from NV
I could support a short-term surge of American anti-combat forces to stabilize the Capitol in Washington DC, until sanity is restored, and Reid does decide to submit to the mandate of the American people by committing to removing the US military from Iraq, and not escalating the conflict, as he seems to be flirting with here.

this may not be possible. and a prolonged presence of peace activist may be necessary, until militaristic people in Congress are either in submission to the will of the people, or are removed from office and tried for crimes against humanity.

We will not accept the Bush/Reid escalation! End the occupation NOW!

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I second that.
We are being suckered into more war again. Fool me once etc. insert bushism here.

Seriously people, this is exactly what it appears to be: an escalation of the conflict in Iraq. All the caveats and conditions and rationalizations are mumbo-jumbo to cover what has happened.

The Deciderator has Deciderated and (gasp!) the decision is MORE AND BIGGER WAR. The War Party enablers on both sides of the aisle are busy making confusion meme waves to cover the outrage against the sovereignty of the people.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. Why work from Baker's statement?
We should not trust Baker in any way, and yes we should treat the report as a "fruit salad" because there is some crap in there like this that will only make the situation worse.

We need a party that is not afraid to stand up for its beliefs no matter what "the experts" say. A lot of times the "experts" are wrong, and if we would have rejected them a few years back we would not be in this mess.

It is time to get out of Iraq. Now. Sending more troops over there will not bring peace it will just get more people killed.

Screw the report and do what is right.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
33. Nuance aside, the Headlines will read " Harry Reid Supports Surge"
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 06:34 PM by spanone
That's what America will see. That's what pisses me off.

like this:

Reid: Brief Troop Increase OK in Iraq

By HOPE YEN
The Associated Press
Sunday, December 17, 2006; 4:01 PM



WASHINGTON -- The Senate's top Democrat offered qualified support Sunday for a plan to increase U.S. troops in Iraq, saying it would be acceptable as part of a broader strategy to bring combat forces home by 2008. ~snip~

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/17/AR2006121700242_pf.html


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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
35. The surge group had better bring a hell of a lot of minesweepers w/them
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 12:48 AM by lebkuchen
Soldiers returning from second tours are saying their mobility around the country has become very very difficult due to mines having been lain everywhere.

PS Getting soldiers to go on third + tours is going to be equally difficult, since they know the seriousness of the guerilla insurgency on the ground. Harry Reid should plan on more soldiers signing the “Appeals for Redress” under the Military Whistle-blower Protection Act.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
36. If it's a component of a clear cut EXIT PLAN.....
That leads to an immanent withdrawal(within a clear cut time frame)....then perhaps. If not, then it's just "stay the freakin course."
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