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What happens when our number is up on the economy?

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Target_For_Exterm Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:29 PM
Original message
What happens when our number is up on the economy?
With Bush's deficit spending left and right to fund his tax cuts, and his adventurous wars that are costing the US BIG $$$ (and his dreams for new ones), it seems clear to all except the most brainwashed Bushbot that our economy is headed for trouble.

Our jobs are getting shipped overseas for the cheap labor. China and other foreign countries are buying up all our debt. Middle East countries are playing us like a violin to extract the most oil $$$ they can.

What do you think will happen when our number's up on the economy and there's no wiggle room left to avoid a disaster?

Will Bush try to engage in even more wars? Will we get invaded by someone else who sees an opportunity to take over the US? Will there be peace, but economic depression?

What do you forsee when TSHTF on the economy? Do you think enough wiggling will avert disaster? Or are we doomed?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. From the behavior of folks around here, I'd say
doomed. No one is buying anything for Christmas. I have friends who have a booth in the most popular flea market in the area, and business has been virtually DEAD. Another friend has a web-based business, and is having the same trouble. A check of the merchants on the courthouse square and even at Wal-Mart, and sales are waaaayyyy down this year.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't know how it will play out but...
I have ran all kinds of scenerios in my mind. When I see some of the Dems speaking they are looking very worried, we will begin to find out more and more each day next year...
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. The economy has a lot of wiggle room.
Yes, Bush's deficits are a medium- and long-term burden. But a dynamic, capitalist economy like ours has a lot of resiliency. And it's not as if things just come to an end. Bush's policies are a drag, but they don't determine the economy, the way the Soviet's five-year plans did theirs, so speaking as if it were something more than a secondary influence is a mistake. Or so it seems to me. There will be ups and downs. I predict the ups still will surpass the downs, even in the next five or ten years.

:hippie:
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Target_For_Exterm Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Even if China (and everyone else) decides to dump our debt?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. The shit hits the fan when we begin bombing operations over Iran
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 05:48 PM by Selatius
It's over at that point.

5 or 6 dollars a gallon for gas will wreck the economy in 48 hours.

China, fearing loss of its tens of billions of dollars in oil investments in Iran, will promptly wage an undeclared war by dumping US treasury bonds, which will send the value of the US Dollar tumbling even further. Other nations could quickly follow suit as they find the Euro is more stable.

The depreciated dollar should be the biggest concern. Because the US is largely an import economy, this means goods made with foreign labor become increasingly expensive. A Chinese worker making widgets for the American equivalent of 60 cents an hour could end up making 1.50 or more dollars after the Dollar depreciates because it lost that much buying power. You think your PS3 made with foreign labor is expensive now? Wait until after your dollars are are deflated in value.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. If we continue to fleece the working class, Banana Republic, here we come.
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 05:45 PM by Union Thug
And watch for increasing anger towards the the wealthy which will play itself out at first as simple acts of vandalism, leading to ??? I don't know, but as wages, benefits and safety nets decrease, anger and resentment will increase, as will the impetus for direct action.

Only when we are back in the business of taking care of EVERYONE in this country - meaning both blue AND white collar workers, will we be able to curb what I think will be the re-establishment of a revolutionary under-class.

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Target_For_Exterm Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. We came pretty close to revolution during the Great Depression.
If Roosevelt hadn't implemented his policies, our country might look very different now.

The scary thing is that I've talked to a number of Republicans who think it would be a good idea to have another Great Depression. These people scare me. They've glorified one of the worst disasters that has ever occurred in this country into something desirable to be longed for.

I have a feeling that a revolution would follow an economic depression of that magnitude in today's world. People are a lot different now than they used to be. Some of these narrow minded idiots would get a BIG surprise if their longing turned to reality.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Especially, with a generation who...
seems to have always been able to get most things they have wanted,.. When they have problems getting gas and other commodities it will become a disaster...
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. "a good idea to have another great depression..."
Wow, I haven't heard that one. What is their rationale?
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Target_For_Exterm Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I think they liked the lack of regulation and the ability
to spread their ill gotten gains a lot further. I guess life is good when you can buy up your neighbor's house (and everything else) for pennies on the dollar. And they assume THEY wouldn't be affected (because only those loser poor people end up without jobs). And they can hire people to do just about anything for pennies on the dollar, AND treat them bad (or kill them) and workers can't do anything about it.

Just a whole lotta sickness going on in their head that somehow has $$$ attached.

The idea that a whole lot of rich folks lost all their money in the Great Depression just doesn't sink in.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well, I would direct them to the 1934 truckers strike for a template
of what would be awaiting them and their Citizens' League minions.

<grin>
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Target_For_Exterm Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. They have a Herbert Hoover mentality.
Remember when the vets marched on Washington to get VA benefits, and Herbert Hoover called out the military on 'em? And a bunch of vets ended up getting shot?

That's the mentality.

People didn't put up "Hooverville" signs for nothing.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Looking at the economy is like looking at an Escher drawing
when you look at the parts they makes sense but when you look at the totality it seems impossible.

In spite of what it may look like, the end is not near.
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The Anti-Neo Con Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. A MASSIVE Depression.
One so bad that it will make the 1930's look like good times. What you'll likely see:

Rampant homelessness due to foreclosures.
75% unemployment.
Soaring crime (people may try to get into prison to get a roof over their heads & 3 meals a day).
Riots in cities. (Think 1968 X10).
A possible violent revolution...those in gated communites better be afraid.
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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'll bet $100 that we won't see all the things you listed anytime in the next 20 years. n/t
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'll bet you they will happen...
some are happening now and aren't being reported on...
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The Anti-Neo Con Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. You're more optimistic than I am I guess.
We'll be throwing billions in the toilet (Iraq) at least until early 2008.

I just hope you don't think the economy is rosy.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. After the democratic vitory in November, I look for the economy
having a much brighter future!
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Time will tell, but never get depressed...
until it's after too late. :evilgrin:
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. CEOs are starting to cash out
and buy mansions in every third world country in the hemisphere, espcially in areas vulnerable to hurricanes.

:evilgrin:

They know something is up. Either their gravy train is going to be derailed with strong new anti embezzlement laws or antitrust laws will start to be enforced after 26 years of lax to no enforcement.

In the short term, expect declining house values and inflating prices for everything else. Also expect credit to get a lot tighter as banking giants realize you can't get blood out of a stone and between housing depreciation and unsecured credit card debt, most folks won't be able to pay them back under their shiny new anticonsumer bankruptcy law.

Also expect higher taxes as Congress attempts to deal with the massive debt without pissing off the super rich.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. I keep asking people how can this continue.
We build nothing, but buy everything. Eventually our economy will crash and crash hard. It will be a wild ride, get out your popcorn.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. I suspect that when Grover Norquist
first uttered his bathtub drowning philosophy of government, he did not imagine that the investor's paradise
would be this grim.

It is funny how when you reach a certain point of excess wealth, the rosy glow of going from multi millionaire to billionaire is not warm enough
to take the frisson you get when you look at where America is right now. In the heartland, the jobs keep going away. The auto industry is folding or just holding its own. Meth is rampent, and violent crime is up. Our oil price is going to follow the direction the middle eastern OPEC states go, and that direction looks incresingly unstable. Saudi Arabia, in particular is looking rather scary, and when they fall into neptocratic dysphoria, don't expect the fundamentalism to decrease.

Further, if we do not do Bush's Saudi master's bidding, and stablize the bloodletting, primarily of Sunni Iraqis, the Saudis will do it for us. When that happens, a defacto state of war will exist between us and Saudi Arabia. Why do you think Harry Reid folded on 'the surge' so fast? When the ambassador/prince left DC, he left to go back to a Royal Family about to have a crisis. If they have a crisis, it cannot help but affect us in ways detrimental to oil prices-- and whither oil prices go, so goes our economy, as it currently constituted.



Our heavy industry is so weighted to transportation (cars) and weapons (from colts 1911's to the latest briefcase nuke) that it reminds me of the quote from Major Barbera by GB Shaw. Barbera's father is a military industrialist of the late Victorian model. When asked his religion, he says he believes in money and gunpowder, for without enough of the latter, you cannot keep the former.

Our weapons are there to secure our oil so we can drive cars. Most of what we do here in the states is either about the structurally un-offshorable jobs like Food Service or Healthcare, or it is a support industry for automobiles. When I watch the local channels, the great preponderance of commercials in prime time are for auto dealerships. Or they are for tires, detailing, etc. Those other remaining industries are either co opted or simply cowed, like auto workers, airline traffic controllers, doctors. Corporate power brooks little criticism. Don't believe me, work for Wally World for a week. Employers like this economy, it's a manager's market. But even middle managment is being outsourced now, and Niemuller's handwriting is on the wall.

This society will not function without cheap oil. And the choice is so apperent to me, we either become the third reich for global oil hegemony, or we grow away from oil. The benefit of the latter is that doing so will create a new paradigm for the world to compete with. Simply funding further research on spherical containment fusion reactors would possibly produce results that make energy monopoly irrelevent.

But that is not the direction we are headed. We have a delusional commander in chief (Cheney), who any day now, I fear is going to provoke some further regional conflict for Straussian philosophy and profit. Considering the prime guiding principle currently driving their policy, I would ask, "What do the Saudis want us to do?" The answer is a surge in forces, the Saudis buying our dollars like mad and pumping their wells into deeper damage, hoping that they will get a share of the as of yet supposedly un-surveyed areas on CHeney's energy group meeting map.

The other half of our Faustian middle east/persia policy, Israel is about to experience a diminishment of American support. I don't think that Jimmy Carter is a voice in the wilderness on this one. And with that, there must be a framework in place for Israel's survival which cannot happen in an unstable region.

Here is my salient point. The global economy, such as it is, cannot really support the expense of all this military conflict. 21st Century warfare is like a hyper virulent disease. It cannot sustain itself in an epidemic-- it kills too quickly, or in the case of warfare, burns capital too quickly for the psychlogical and economic equilibrium global capitalism requires.

So the world economic leadership will be forced to make changes that do not include our continued warfare. They really need to do that without entirely crippling our economy. If we steped up to them with a decent proposal about how we were going to help create a post carbon age world wide, about how we were going to work to minimize resource and sectarian conflicts instead of supporting or even inflaming them, I believe we would not be just talking to ourselves.

But I think that failing that, the global capital community has probably figured that they can just kneecap us with oil, a thing they use comparitively more thriftily, and let our military/automotive economy grind to a halt. That halt could occur in 2007 or 08, when we rebel against the next required 'surge,' or it could come when the Saudis do not think we are doing enough for the former baathists.

The shift to euros by more oil trading nations would also hurt us. I think *that* along with a basic increase in oil price to where goldman sachs feared it would go to would be the perfect storm could send us into full War Corporatism with a command economy and no convertable currency. We could make weapons, fix up cars we have already made, pump domestic oil from everywhere we can stick a dixie straw into mother earth, who knows, we might even get desperate enough in a decade or two to even start looking at renewables again. But by then, by design, there will be a class, not of hyper rich, but of Dukes and Kings of Wealth. Right up the point where America hangs them from light poles, of course.









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