Please help me answer this email

[Holly_Hobby]

This young woman is 32 with a Master's (I think it's called a Masters) in English. She obviously didn't take many History courses, and doesn't Google. Can anyone here give me some zingers to answer this crap? Thank you. The relevant part of the email follows.

...On the other hand, we may be needing prayer rugs and veils within the year (I can't remember the name of person interviewed offhand, but I can look it up if you like). While our country may have many flaws and be run by power-hungry, unethical white men, I'd rather have all my legs and limbs in tact.

I just watched a video called "Voices of Iraq". Basically, the producers just gave out video cameras to the ordinary citizens in various regions of Iraq. They were allowed to say what they wanted, and some questions were asked of them as well. Unlike in Iran's videos where the children shout death to America, the children of Iraq like the US. It also showed people's heads and hands being chopped off during Saddam's reign. Did you know Iraq was banned from competing in a fairly recent Olympics because Saddam often harmed and/or murdered the athletes? I'd rather live in a country that pays their athletes way too much, wouldn't you?

I'm glad more troops are possibly going into Iraq. If we don't fight to win there, 9/11 will seem like a campfire compared to the horrible vision of fire Iran's leaders have as they plan the next move to start the apocolpyse (spelling?). I've seen the clips Iran has been showing to their people, specifically their children, and chills ran up my spine. I also couldn't watch the interview on 60 minutes with the President of Iran without the same feeling. He's EVIL and he's toying with us like a cat before it kills a mouse.

And now I've seen Iraq's people speak out. I don't see how I can get any closer to the real story which is how these people want the same things we have (for the most part)...security, freedom and prosperity, etc. They want our help, and they deserve a chance at a better life after what Saddam has done to them. Most of the news shows only the bombings and concentrates on the number of deaths. That's why I don't watch them. I don't want to be brainwashed into thinking it's all bad news just because it's a war. It's no wonder the majority of the US want out based on these reports. I don't like war any more than you do, but we can't talk to them because they'd rather die and be martyrs. I've heard the quotes from the President of Iran. He warns all of us to bow down before him and become Islamists or else we will be destroyed. In Islam, we'd be invisible. Or if we defied the religion, dead.

Questions for you. What do you think will happen if we don't win in Iraq? Or maybe I should ask what do you think will happen if we leave Iraq? What are your news sources saying the consequences to leaving will be? Who do your sources believe are our enemies and allies?

NONE of the people in the Iraq Study Group (stupid name, if you ask me) have military experience. What a waste of time and money!!

[Sherman A1]

1. NONE of the people in the Iraq Study Group

have military experience. What a waste of time and money!! And neither does the Decider or his puppet master, the esteemed Mr. Cheney.

[Holly_Hobby]

2. Zing! Thank you! n/t

[caraher]

13. WRONG!

Obviously, there's so much rubbish in there it's hard to know where to begin. How about at the end?

"NONE of the people in the Iraq Study Group (stupid name, if you ask me) have military experience."

James Basker: "served in the United States Marine Corps for two years as a lieutenant" (per Wikipedia)
Charles Robb: "A Marine Corps veteran who finished first in his class at Quantico... Robb went on to serve two tours of duty in Vietnam, where he led a rifle company in combat, and was awarded the Bronze Star.(also Wikipedia)
Alan Simpson: "served in the United States Army, Infantry 1954-1956" (http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=S000429)

[Target_For_Exterm]

3. WRT the Olympic Team - here's what happens to them now:

"In recent months, sports teams and officials have been targets in the ongoing violence engulfing Iraq. The taekwondo team members were kidnapped May 17 while driving across western Iraq after a competition in Jordan. Later that month, gunmen killed the coach of the national tennis team and two of his players in western Baghdad. The attackers in that incident reportedly were religious extremists angry that the men were wearing shorts.

And Thursday, the coach of the national wrestling team was shot dead in an apparent abduction attempt in Baghdad, forcing his team to pull out of a tournament in the United Arab Emirates."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071500241.html

Yes, they're ever so much better off. :sarcasm:

And you might point out that Bush doesn't really have military experience either (since he went AWOL from the National Guard), so by the same rationale he's not qualified to make decisions about Iraq OR serve as Commander in Chief.

[Holly_Hobby]

5. Thank you! n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Don't know if this will help directly,

but Tikkun has run an article about a Muslim imam speaking out against the president of Iran. You can find it in my journal.

A good place to find out what progressive/Muslim folks are thinking can be found at www.muslimwakeup.com

Here's part of a story on women's issues from the current front page:

When Women Get Together

By Ani Zonneveld

Recently, November 17-19, 2006, I attended the first W.I.S.E. (Women’s Islamic initiative in Spirituality and Equity) conference in New York. Spearheaded by Daisy Khan of ASMA Society (www.asmasociety.org), the task at the conference was to create a Shura Council (an advisory board) that will contribute to an interpretation of the Quran and our Islamic traditions in a modern context.

Of course not everyone agreed with a need for such a Council. Regardless of whether we agreed or not, however, the one thing that was apparent was that to some degree, we are all getting shafted by our Muslim men. We all agree that women are used, abused, discriminated against despite what the Quran dictates. I see W.I.S.E. as building on the momentum started by Turkey with the abolishment of hadith passages vilifying women, and on the training of women spiritual leaders in Morocco. The fact that these changes are happening in the heartland of Islam speaks volumes about the integrity of my fellow Muslims. After all, gender equality is a struggle found in the western world and in all faith traditions till this century.

In attendance were women from all over the world, over 100. I was humbled and proud to see so many women working to empower other unprivileged women. Some by way of lectures, books, and scholarship, as social workers, activists, and government officials, and others through the arts and pop culture. I can’t tell you about all the women I spoke to, but I can give you a peek into some of the extraordinary contributions of a few of them.


Hope that you find these sources helpful when it comes to talking about Islam to her.

Edited to add: there is also an article about Islamic Feminism, and one on the veil, part of which I post now:

Thaa!
By Tarek Fatah

Recently, there has been controversy around the veil worn by some Muslim women to conceal their faces. Many have viewed this as a conflict between Muslims on one side and the "Islamophobic" west on the other. Not so. The debate is being waged primarily within Muslim society and is part of the battle for the heart and soul of Muslim communities from Tunisia to Turkey, Indonesia to India, and right here in Canada.

To begin with, the veil is not required by Islam.

None other than Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Qatar-based Islamic scholar, stated in a Friday sermon that "it is not obligatory for Muslim women to wear the niqab ." He added, "The majority of Muslim scholars and I do not support the niqab in which women cover their faces."

Read the rest of the article about the struggle in Islam between the fundamentalists and everyone else. And know that the US war in Iraq is only strengthening the hands of the fundamentalists to the detriment of other Muslims, imho.

[Holly_Hobby]

6. Thank you - her head is gonna explode! n/t

[libnnc]

7. Sounds like some of the crap

someone in another thread is spewing. They must all have gotten the same talking points this weekend.

[Holly_Hobby]

10. It's so frustrating to try to educate these kind of people

She just finished reading "1984" at my recommendation, and none of it sank in.

[MadMaddie]

8. She says that the Iraqi's want our help...

Perhaps it should be pointed out that their lives were at least tolerable under Saddam before the forced and unneeded invasion by the * cabal,

The Iraqi's had running and rinkable water, bombs were not going off every five minutes, drive by shooting were not occurring, the kids could go to school...even with the Sanctions on the country they were better off..Women were not required to wear Burka's, the different religions were able to coexist....

And earth to supposedly educated women.." don't want to be brainwashed into thinking it's all bad news just because it's a war."

WAR IS BAD NEWS!!! Especially a WAR OF CHOICE!!! That's all....

[Holly_Hobby]

11. Many thanks....

I get so upset at this crap that I can't think straight.

[dorkulon]

9. vast majority of Iraqis DO NOT want our "help"

August -- "World Values Survey of Iraqis (commissioned by the National Science Foundation) found 98% of Iraqi Sunni Arabs oppose the U.S. occupation of Iraq, up from 95% in 2004. Among Shias, 95% oppose our occupation, up from 81% in 2004. We have even lost most Kurds - 63% now, up from 20% in 2004."

http://www.democrats.com/more-iraqis-oppose-occupation

[Holly_Hobby]

21. Thank you. Duly added to my email reply. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

12. Point by point, a reply:

...On the other hand, we may be needing prayer rugs and veils within the year

Are you suggesting that Iran, with an annual military budget of less than 1% of the United States', will be able to mount an invasion of the United States? Because if you are, you're frankly either stupid or crazy.

(I can't remember the name of person interviewed offhand, but I can look it up if you like). While our country may have many flaws and be run by power-hungry, unethical white men, I'd rather have all my legs and limbs in tact.

So would our soldiers.

I just watched a video called "Voices of Iraq". Basically, the producers just gave out video cameras to the ordinary citizens in various regions of Iraq. They were allowed to say what they wanted, and some questions were asked of them as well. Unlike in Iran's videos where the children shout death to America, the children of Iraq like the US.

This is simply untrue. Any poll will tell you this. Nine out of ten Iraqis hate us. Conversely, the United States enjoys mild popularity among the Iranians--or did, before the invasion of Iraq.

It also showed people's heads and hands being chopped off during Saddam's reign. Did you know Iraq was banned from competing in a fairly recent Olympics because Saddam often harmed and/or murdered the athletes?

That's shocking. And untrue. Iraq has competed in every Summer Olympics since 1980.

I'd rather live in a country that pays their athletes way too much, wouldn't you?

I wasn't aware that anyone was suggesting that you had to move to Iraq. In fact, you don't. However, there are quite a few Americans who do have to go to Iraq. We call them "soldiers." Wouldn't you rather they come home?

I'm glad more troops are possibly going into Iraq. If we don't fight to win there, 9/11 will seem like a campfire compared to the horrible vision of fire Iran's leaders have as they plan the next move to start the apocolpyse (spelling?).

Fight to win from whom? Who are we fighting? Iran is not related to Al-Qaeda--in fact, they're on opposite sides of the Iraqi conflict. Al-Qaeda supports the Sunnis in Iraq. Iran supports the Shi'ites. The Sunnis and Shi'ites are at war with each other. Who do we support? Do we fight the Iran-backed Shi'ites, supporting the Sunni terrorists? Or do we fight the Sunni terrorists, supporting Iran? Do we fight both parties? Because that would be fighting the entire population of Iraq.

I've seen the clips Iran has been showing to their people, specifically their children, and chills ran up my spine. I also couldn't watch the interview on 60 minutes with the President of Iran without the same feeling. He's EVIL and he's toying with us like a cat before it kills a mouse.

And how would he kill us? With rhetoric?

And now I've seen Iraq's people speak out. I don't see how I can get any closer to the real story which is how these people want the same things we have (for the most part)

Well, you could look at polls of the Iraqi people to find out how they think. But you might not like their responses

....security, freedom and prosperity, etc. They want our help

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=59894

and they deserve a chance at a better life after what Saddam has done to them.

Yes, they do. And in order for that to happen, we have to leave.

Most of the news shows only the bombings and concentrates on the number of deaths. That's why I don't watch them. I don't want to be brainwashed into thinking it's all bad news just because it's a war.

So you don't watch the news. You have no idea what's going on. You just saw a bunch of pro-US Iraqis, who are vastly outnumbered, given cameras. You know what we call that? Antecdotal evidence. And it's worthless.

It's no wonder the majority of the US want out based on these reports. I don't like war any more than you do, but we can't talk to them because they'd rather die and be martyrs.

Who are "they?" The Sunnis? Or the Shi'ites? Because they're totally different, and most of the violence there is Sunnis killing Shi'ites and Shi'ites killing Sunnis.

I've heard the quotes from the President of Iran. He warns all of us to bow down before him and become Islamists or else we will be destroyed. In Islam, we'd be invisible. Or if we defied the religion, dead.

Really? I can't seem to find any quotes from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying that. I think you made that up. Moreover, "Islamist" does not mean what you think it does. An "Islamist" is someone who wants everyone in the world to become a Muslim. You can't possibly make someone Islamist--that's not even the goal of Islamists.

Questions for you. What do you think will happen if we don't win in Iraq? Or maybe I should ask what do you think will happen if we leave Iraq?

There will be a nasty civil war between the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. The Shi'ites will win. They will be friendly to Iran. Iran, Iraq, Syria (because of Hezbollah), and Lebanon will form a Shi'ite-dominated power bloc. The rest of the Muslim world, being Sunni, will unite against them. This will set the stage for either a bloodbath or a cold war. This is very unfortunate. But our continued presence is not helping the situation in any way. Our best bet is to attempt to negotiate a power-sharing agreement, bring Syria, the Saudis, and Iran into the political process, and draw down our forces. Hopefully we'll only leave a cold war and not a hot one.

What are your news sources saying the consequences to leaving will be? Who do your sources believe are our enemies and allies?

No news source would declare what the future would be. If it does, it's not a news source, it's an opinion source. And relying on opinions for news is dangerous. As for the second question, it's kind of meaningless. There are neither enemies or allies in politics. There are only players with their own goals.

NONE of the people in the Iraq Study Group (stupid name, if you ask me) have military experience.

First of all, this is untrue. Perry was SecDef, and Panetta, Robb, and Baker all served. However, neither Bush nor Cheney served. What was your point again?

[Holly_Hobby]

16. WoW! Thank you, Kelly! n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

17. Ever so welcome.

Right-wing garbage is so satisfying to shut down.

[TheWraith]

14. Oy. And completely wrong to boot.

"I just watched a video called "Voices of Iraq"."

I would ask where this supposed video came from, because it's certainly not an accurate representation of local opinions. In scientific polls, well over 90 percent of Iraqis disapprove of the US in general and the US presence in Iraq in particular. The people there don't secretly love us. The Iranians, on the other hand, are much more positive towards the US, for one simple reason: we had nothing to do with supporting their leaders. The Iranian government's approval rating among its citizens is between 17 and 26 percent.

"I'm glad more troops are possibly going into Iraq. If we don't fight to win there, 9/11 will seem like a campfire"

What the hell kind of campfires does this woman go to? And does she realize that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11? Nor, for that matter, did the Iranians. Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi, as were 15 of the 19 hijackers. The other 4 were Egyptians. Neither Iraq nor Iran had anything to do with it.

"compared to the horrible vision of fire Iran's leaders have as they plan the next move to start the apocolpyse (spelling?)."

I hate to break it to you, but we're the ones who were talking about the preemptive use of nuclear weapons not too long ago.

"Most of the news shows only the bombings and concentrates on the number of deaths. That's why I don't watch them. I don't want to be brainwashed into thinking it's all bad news just because it's a war."

It's not called brainwashing, it's called reality. Wouldn't you think things were bad if the US were invaded, 8 million people killed, and another 12 million forced to flee the country for their lives? That's what it would be like here if you took the statistics for Iraq. All that smoke that the right-wing pundits blow about the number of killings being no more than the murders in a US city is a complete and total lie. Every day, between 30 and 100 bodies of people tortured, mutilated, and executed are found in Baghdad alone. Care to name a US city where that happens?

"I don't like war any more than you do,"

Obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't be blinding yourself to the facts.

"but we can't talk to them because they'd rather die and be martyrs."

Who are you talking about? The Iraqis who supposedly love us? You have to be, since it's been repeatedly stated by the military, the AP, the Iraqi government, etcetera, that upwards of 95% of the fighters are Iraqis, not some foreign terrorist element as the spinners would have you believe.

"I've heard the quotes from the President of Iran. He warns all of us to bow down before him and become Islamists or else we will be destroyed. In Islam, we'd be invisible. Or if we defied the religion, dead."

This doesn't even parse. For starters, Ahmedinejad is a windbag, and anyone who takes him seriously needs to get their heads examined. If you base your level of fear on what rhetoric somebody uses rather than an actual assessment of the facts, then the smallest tin-pot dictator is as scary as Hitler.

[Jim__]

15. In the documentary, the people of Iraq were allowed to speak freely.

However, the film makers edited down 450 hours of the Iraqi people speaking to an 85 minute film. Did they randomly select the bits that made the film? Or, did they select the parts that supported their political point? I think its obviously the latter. While Iraqis were speaking, the film shows American newspaper headlines that "contradict" what the peson is saying. However, nothing ties the date of the headline to the time and place of the "filmed" contradiction. That amounts to pure propaganda.

[Skittles]

18. pretty sad

I would ask her how someone so educated can be so easily fooled not just by propaganda, but really, really bad propaganda

[Holly_Hobby]

22. I am continually shocked at her level of ignorance. n/t

[Skittles]

25. oh I see it all the time

it's proof to me that education does not make a person intelligent - my grandparents, who never even went to high school, were much, much smarter than most of the degreed people I know

[achtung_circus]

19. Voices of Iraq

is a 2 year old movie. As noted above it was heavily edited, as it had to be, the question, and it's a fair question, is what slant directed the editing process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voices_of_Iraq

Criticism

Some accused Voices of Iraq of being conservative propaganda intended to influence the 2004 presidential election in the United States. These accusations arose when the film was released theatrically prior to the US election, and that within the movie Iraqis highlighted positive changes in Iraq. The accusations were further fueled when the film's PR was handled by a "a P.R. firm employed by the Army. MS&L's motto: "At MS&L, we have a new and higher purpose. We don't just change perceptions, because perceptions can be fleeting. What we do - in every sense of the words - is this: Change Minds." Producer Martin Kunert responded to the connection between MS&L and the US army, "Saying that because MS&L promotes the Army commercial campaigns reveals a bias in our film is akin to claiming Mickey Mouse films are liberal propaganda because Disney financed Michael Moore."<16>

For an updated view, only one year old see here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1589928,00.html

Um Mawj, 40, mother, and her daughter Mawj, 11, and son Manar, 10

We have just moved to a new neighbourhood from Doura . We had a big house with a garden, a blow-up pool, a decent school. But it became impossible. Every day there were shootings, bombings and kidnappings.

My nephew was kidnapped, my friends' children were kidnapped. They all paid ransoms. When I dropped my children to school I'd wait outside until they finished and take them straight home. My daughter's exam was cancelled because of a bomb alert.

We put the house up for rent. I was worried it would be taken by squatters but we finally got a tenant last week who will pay £230 a month. That's the same we're paying for the tiny apartment we've found in a safer part of town. We had to pay a lot up front so it's been a stretch financially. But there is just one bombing or shooting a week here. It's nice.

The children's schoolwork doesn't appear to have suffered but they are fighting more than they used to because they are more nervous. The only place they're allowed to ride their bikes is around their grandfather's garden.

I imagine the situation has changed somewhat since October, 2005; not for the better.

[ComerPerro]

20. standard Republican position on Iraq: We need to win, we need more troops

BUT I AIN'T FIGHTIN!

[jgraz]

23. Why don't you ask her to show her Masters in English to an Army recruiter

I bet they could use some more English majors to help clear IEDs.

[Holly_Hobby]

24. Bwhahaha! I think I'll send her the enlistment form. Thanks. n/t