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It's time for some brutal honesty about the Iraq resolution.

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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:06 PM
Original message
It's time for some brutal honesty about the Iraq resolution.
This is a shameful thing, but at the time, I supported it. You know why?

I saw some sort of Georgia PBS special where David Kay was talking about Iraq. It scared the hell out of me, and with 9/11 as a recent backdrop, I was ready for the United States to bomb the hell out of anyone and everyone. As I watched the Bush administration make its case for war, I honestly thought that surely all of these definitive statements about Iraq were real. I mean, who would tell obvious lies that could be easily disproved with something as terrible and important as war at stake?

But then things started happening. I thought that ignoring the UN's request for another round of inspections was a HUGE alarm bell for me, because it was a chance to avert war that the Bush administration completely ignored. I came to this conclusion far too late, but right then, I knew that Bush was hell-bent on war. Then I didn't like all of the anti-France stuff. After all, they're not obligated to give us unqualified support. They're an ally, not a satellite state. Then all of the "Bush doctrine" started. Pre-emptive war?!? Wasn't that what Japan did to us in 1941? And what's this "doctrine" stuff? He's not James fucking Monroe.

The worst thing was the feeling when combat started. You know, guilt and the thought that I'd been incredibly stupid. After all, I'd supported it at a certain point. I just decided to hope that there was a minimum of casualties and that we got out of there ASAP. As soon as Iraq's army started melting away I knew they'd be back fighting a guerilla war and this wouldn't be over for a long time. When Bush did his fake fighter pilot thing, I was just sick. Things weren't even close to accomplished in Iraq. Right at that point, I went from quiet when people discussed Iraq to criticising it, especially given that there were NO WMDs, especially nu-cu-ler. And when the administration started changing the rationale for the war, I knew beyond a doubt that I'd... been... had.

It pissed me off. BIG time. I'd chosen to think that surely even the Bush administration wouldn't lie about something as serious as war. I was just STUPID. Why would the same set of people who engineered election fraud in Florida hesitate to lie about war? When that thought occurred to me earlier, I'd thought that no one would be arrogant enough pass off lies as a pretext for war. It was just too big a thing for anyone to do. I mean, an election was one thing, but war? Turns out that the Bush administration would be that arrogant.

I over-thought the whole damn thing. I tried to see it from my perspective: I would never use the United States armed forces as my personal plaything to satisfy my daddy issues. I would never send troops to war unless I could go to a funeral and tell the parents face to face that their child's death meant something. I would never lie to the country in order to start a war. I thought that no one was bad enough to do so. I forgot the lessons of history: that such a monster can arise anywhere, any time, from any society.

I would have signed the resolution. I would hope that I would be bold enough to say that I was fooled, and I made a mistake. I'm saying it here: I was fooled. If you think that makes me any less anti-war than you, then you are wrong. I will NEVER be taken in again. I will NEVER support war unless the United States is attacked first. I will never support the use of US troops for peacekeeping unless it is under the auspices of the United Nations and is done as less than 50% of the total committed forces.

Those of you who are up on a high horse because you never supported the war need to get the hell off of it. There are those of us who were wrong who are just as against all of this as you are. If you want to look down on us for it, then I suppose you've never been mistaken in your life, and screw you.

Oh, and one last thing: I didn't change my mind because I thought it was politically expedient or popular. I live in Georgia, the reddest damn state in the country. My current views are quite unpopular here. I changed my mind because it was clear that I'd been suckered. I plastered my car with Democratic stickers in '04 and added more in '06. I've been shouted at, flipped off, etc. Every time, I've shouted and/or gestured back. The fact that I was fooled pisses me off enough to give me that much more backbone. I'm Democrat, I'm anti-war, I'm anti-Bush, I'm anti-neocon, I'm anti-conservative. And if you question my motives, you can just queue on up with the Republicans in the "kiss my ass" line.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whatever. I won't vote for a candidate who voted for it.
Both of my senators were courageous and smart enough to vote against it. That's the kind of person I want running the country. Courageous and smart. I'm sorry that you were fooled. I agree it was a heinous propaganda campaign.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Same here....say "Hello!" to my litmus test!!! nt
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HardRocker05 Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
50. Ditto; but it's good if average people who supported IWR now see it for what it was. nt
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. You were a goddamn fool, and it's good to see you admit it.
Redstone
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
48. and you're a damned abrasive fool. nt
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 12:51 PM by QuestionAll...
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I wasn't talking to you.
Redstone
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. yes, you were wrong, but you were not in a political leadership position....
The propaganda and the lies were meant for you. You swallowed them. Not something to be proud of certainly, but your willingness to be swept along in the lies was not leadership. I expect more from my political leadership. That's why they're in congress, and you're in the constituency.

As for the high horse, piss on that. We knew what we were talking about and we were right. I won't pretend otherwise. I certainly won't apologize.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you, good post. n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Then again, you weren't being PAID to be right about it
You were probably too busy trying to put food on your family to deeply study the factors involved. You can get away with that excuse, but Senators who voted for this war cannot. If you make that kind of blunder in your job, you have no right asking the American people for a promotion.



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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. That's bullshit!
The information was out there!
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. I remember a grinning gwbu$h proudly proclaiming to be the
"First war president of the twenty first century..." in the days leading up to the unlawful invasion of Iraq.

I thought that saner minds would prevail. But I was wrong because even they went along with the obvious bushit at the time.

What do we have now? Korea has gone nuclear. Iran is going nuclear. Russia is reorganizing their nuclear arsenal. We don't even know what China is doing. We are putting new weapons in space. For what? For greed, for power. And we sit back and watch them in our livingrooms on tv, with a beer in our hand.

Nothing we can do or not do in Iraq will stop the fighting there now. The most we can do now is set the stage for several dozen War Crimes trials, from Russ Limbaugh to gwbu$h himself.
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. As humans, I don't think that we get off Scott-free when we admit
our mistakes. There were and must be consequences, because these mistakes enabled bushco to kill people.

You can't retract your failure of adequate diligence, but you can try to help. Pick out a killed solder's family with children and send them as much financial help as you can every year until those children are grown. You can not give them their father back, but you can help support them. Either that or get depressed and kill yourself to resolve your guilt.

It is the same shame the German People who supported Hitler had to atone for. It isn't as simple as writing a few short paragraphs on the Internet. It is a shame to be borne for life.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'm not sure how you expect to win people over
People usually don't respond well to "screw you" and fuck you."

Just sayin'...The rhetorical strategy here is asinine and self-defeating.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. i think comparing him to those that allowed hitler to do what he did
is quite a bit worse to a fuck you. dont you?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Eeeeh
Whatever.

The OP seems like a weird exercise in passive-aggression. I'll leave you to it.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Oh well. Good thing I'm not trying to win votes.
For me, or for anyone else. I didn't write the post to change anyone's minds. I wrote it to give my perspective.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. LOL
OK, there, buddy.

Duly fucking noted, then. :rofl:
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. If you never voted for or supported anyone who enabled or ordered the Iraq
war, then I retract what I said about your guilt. I should not have read that into your OP, as you did not specifically say it.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's OK.
I can hardly expect people to be understanding without putting that hat on myself. Sorry for the strong reaction - I had a roommate for two years who was from the former East Germany and got a good idea of the massive guilt that country carries and the horror with which they view their history. He finds the ideas of nationalism and patriotism repugnant. I learned a lot from him, and his perspective was a reason why my turnaround on the war was pretty quick.
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Half my heritage is Bavarian and I have family that I speak with weekly
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 11:55 PM by ToolTex
that still live a few klicks from the Eastern border. I feel similar to the repugnant horror you mention regarding Iraq every time I speak with them. I hate the neocon criminals that have brought this shame on the USA, and cannot forgive any that empowered or helped them do it.

(Edited for clarity).
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Well, it's certainly changed me.
I'm in grad school. In 2001, before 9/11, I remember hosting a get-together and was annoyed at a new friend who talked about some aspects of US society in disparaging terms. He was from Germany (a different person than the other one I mentioned). While I didn't pull the Nazi card on him, it was in the back of my mind - as in how dare someone from Germany condemn us?!? It didn't occur to me that his mindset was from a country that had learned about jingoistic patriotism at terrible cost to its soul. Turns out he was right.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Please, get over yourself.
:eyes:
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. not everybody's eyes open at the same time...
and it totally pisses me off when anyone demeans another for something they presently lack. Knowledge has come very slowly to me, and I've had much time to invest. Unlike some, I understand completely why so many in our country are un, or ill-informed. It took more time than I'd care to admit for much of this newly-found information to sink in. It's not easy to let go of beliefs you didn't even know you had, without repeated and conclusive evidence to the contrary. Thank-you for a respectful post.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. As I said...
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 11:15 PM by GaYellowDawg
I wrote the post to tell people that it's entirely possible to get fooled and be completely against the war now. I simply wasn't skeptical enough, and I'm also honest enough to admit that I was mistaken. It's unfortunate that I posted this on a board that is so full of brilliant, precognitive, incredibly well-informed saints :sarcasm: that I get roundly condemned for it.

I voted Democratic in 1988, 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006. I've put Democratic stickers on my car in Georgia. My Gore/Leiberman sticker is STILL on my car (to support Gore, NOT Lieberman). I've never voted for a pro-war candidate. I've never supported the war with my vote or my money. I got suckered for a few months, was honest enough to admit it, and that apparently makes me ignorant shit as far as the ideologically pure on here are concerned.
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. No, it appears that you are not the ignorant shit that your OP suggested.
Had you included your voting history information in the original, I suspect the responses would have been milder. Mine certainly would have been. But I was the one that was wrong as your omission should not have led me to conclude you supported the policy makers.

I do believe that those that supported the right in 2002, 2004, or 2006 are equally guilty to those that supported Hitler in the 1930s.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
51. it is very telling...
the little microcosm of DU....as to the health of society in general. And the irony is the 'ideologically pure' are devoid of human understanding. Blaming the voters...they might as well go kick their dog.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. You're Not a US Congressman, Are You?
Specifically, a Democratic congressman?

We are supposed to hold them to higher standards than the average Joe. We expect them to consider verified facts before voting on a subject as serious as this. We expect them to examine contradictory evidence.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. No and no.
No, I'm not a Congressman. Which means, no, I'm not a Democratic Congressman.

In college, I was in an intercollegiate state legislature. I learned the hard way about lots of dirty tricks and pure crap that happen in that setting. Things like keeping bills in committee, adding ridiculous amendments to bills to give a reason for killing them besides not wanting to do the right thing, and many other things. It's a poisonous, treacherous environment, and there's no way in hell I'd want to do it for a living.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am willing to accept that people can change, what irks me is people who claim the IWR
was a completely innocent resolution that did not give Bush a blank check to go to war.

People need to be honest with themselves about this.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Yeah, there's a lot of that crap on DU...
"It wasn't a vote to go to war." Please. My beagle is smarter than that.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. IYou were fooled, alright
That is all.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. i said the exact same thing. surely he wouldn't lie about this.
and if he does he is in SOOOO much trouble. he lied and he didn't get in sooo much trouble

it was powell that disappointed me. i didn't think he would do this to soldiers.

i didn't like going in. another thing i said in july prior, vietnam. but i understand you post. i can probably identify with most of what you posted. i didn't have the feeling you did because of 9/11. felt no need to bomb or kill for that. just get the perpetrators. and obviously the country of iraq wasn't them
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'm glad you posted this, I'm glad you made the journey you did.
For whatever reason, I never believed in the war, just as I never believed the 9-11 story. Most other people differed with me. I was attending to one part of the field of available data, almost everyone else was attuned to a different part. Maybe I was just a paranoid personality type who happened to be right. I don't know. But I do know that I'm glad so many have opened their eyes to the increasingly apparent reality. I hold nobody's error against them. Instead I am amazed, and heartened, that so many are seeing their way through the stream of bullshit that has been flowing nonstop from all the major media. It's not easy to buck consensus reality, and I applaud all who do, no matter when they come to do so.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. There were a few million people that protested the
oncoming Illegal Invasion of Iraq, not just in America. Busholini derided them, calling them a focus group. Others who were fooled by the blatant lies can be forgiven but the Busholini Regime cannot be forgiven for lying to the Congress. That was a crime and needs to be accounted for.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
43. I was one of those who protested & spoke against the oncoming war.
But I understand how it was that many were deceived. I'm pretty much used to standing with a small minority in my opinions. I remember talking about Watergate to people during the McGovern campaign & being told I was getting all frothed up about an inconsequential third-rate burglary.

So, yes, I can forgive those who were taken in by the lies. Else I would have to write off most of the American population.
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diamidue Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't really blame anyone for voting for Bush
the FIRST time. Many people just could never imagine that their government would lie to them. Colin Powell was at that time very much a trusted and respected man.

Anyone who voted GOP a second time, tho, gets absolutely no sympathy from me.

And there was NO excuse for ANY of the Senators or Congressmen to support this invasion.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think we knew it was bullshit from the get-go.
We could have set out watches by Junior's rush to war; it was so predictable. It was like watching a car crash in slow motion. I would be pretending if I said any of the Dems in Congress had legitimate reason for vote YES on the IWR, other than watching their own political behinds. The Republics set the trap and too many Dems weren't brave enough to weather the epithet of "weak on terror" and call bullshit on this folly from day #1. And, sorry, but a retraction of that vote after the fact and after the 2004 election doesn't win any brownie points in my book. This vote separated the leaders from the posers IMO.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. I have no problems with people who 'see the light"--only with those who
after so much evidence hits them in the face they refuse to 'see' it.
Welcome.
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AlienAvatar Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. And that includes the vast majority
of Congress. "after so much evidence hits them in the face and they refuse to 'see' it". Only thing is, I think they "saw" it. They saw it just as plainly as most of us here saw it. Their cowardice and self-interest completely overwhelmed any quality of leadership, responsibility, or character that they may have ever possessed.

I'm disgusted with just about the whole lot of them. And I'm afraid it's going to take a generation to clean out that garbage. IF it ever happens.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. Thank you for your post.
And I would bet money that a good number of the DU'ers on their high horses now, those who "knew all" from day one, are not being completely honest about that fact.
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Mechatanketra Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
37. Seems the problem is, you're not prepared for brutal honesty.
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 01:59 AM by Mechatanketra
I mean, hey, it makes so much more sense to get on a high horse about having been wrong.

This is the thing I've been gritting my teeth over since the war began, especially during the nomination of Kerry when it seemed like all of his supporters were trying to rewrite history to the effect that "Oh, everyone believed there were WMDs and supported the war, we were all fooled, and anyone who wasn't supporting the war resolution just doesn't take America's security seriously." It tries to take the moral high ground about being wrong, and deride the motives of those who were right.

Well, double **** you back, sirrah (and by "you", I address everyone who insists that there was any honor in supporting the IWR). You said it twice yourself: you were stupid. I don't say that to be mean, to pump myself up and lord it over you — I say that because at the end of the day, nothing productive will happen until the people who were wrong accept they were wrong, and (this is the critical part) stop thinking they get to act just the same as if they were right.

If you're against the war now, and you think you've learned your lesson now and forever, that's certainly wonderful — welcome back to the reality-based community. But the thing is, this war — and let's be more brutally honest, and get to the heart of the badness here: this massive pile of corpses — was made possible by people like you, and not just by those people being mistaken but by their stubborn adherence to that mistake against all of us who were screaming at them about the mistake from day 1. That's the heart of it: it's not just that you made a mistake, but that you (collectively, all of those who supported the resolution, and thereby made it clearly acceptable for Congress to) fought the people who weren't mistaken.

Is there going to be wariness? Is there going to be mistrust? Is there going to be outright resentment, even anger? Nine hells, yes. You're the paroled felon working the cash register: people are gonna recount their change. The cold hard fact of life is that you have to earn the trust back, because part of the damage caused by this mistake you regret is that trust.

"I'm sorry." are honorable words; "I'm sorry, but..." are a prelude to foolish denial. There's true remorse, that makes you work hard to atone for the wrongs that you've done, and then there's pathological guilt, a buried, rankling irritation that makes you lash out at that which reminds you of the wrongs you can't come to grips with. If what you feel is really the former instead of the latter, than you need to "get the hell off it". As you yourself begin, it is a shameful thing — so show shame. That's part of your cross to bear.

But sneering at those who didn't support the resolution, and even snidely implying that no such creature really exists, isn't going to convince anyone of your resolve to not get fooled again. That's pride messing with your head, and eventually pride's going to ask you to put the blinders back on because it's safe and comfortable while reality hurts. And in the meantime, I'm counting my change again.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Hoo boy.
I mean, hey, it makes so much more sense to get on a high horse about having been wrong.


If you read that into my post, then you've pretty much missed the boat. I don't take any pride whatsoever in having been wrong. It angers and upsets me. It only makes things worse when someone comes along and twists the knife. I think that people who do that pretty much suck.

You said it twice yourself: you were stupid. I don't say that to be mean, to pump myself up and lord it over you — I say that because at the end of the day, nothing productive will happen until the people who were wrong accept they were wrong, and (this is the critical part) stop thinking they get to act just the same as if they were right.


And how should we act? Would you settle for one or for multiple ass-kissings? Should we wear some sort of scarlet letter? Wash your car? I'm just trying to get a picture of the kind of absolution that those of you with purity of thought and deed require. How about scale? I never voted for a pro-war candidate, nor did I support any such candidate, or any pro-war group or organization financially. Should I wear ashes or sackcloth for the same amount of time or a shorter time than someone who voted for Bush in 2004? How long would you have us bow to you, our moral superiors, before you allow us in your august company?

If you're against the war now, and you think you've learned your lesson now and forever, that's certainly wonderful — welcome back to the reality-based community. But the thing is, this war — and let's be more brutally honest, and get to the heart of the badness here: this massive pile of corpses — was made possible by people like you, and not just by those people being mistaken but by their stubborn adherence to that mistake against all of us who were screaming at them about the mistake from day 1. That's the heart of it: it's not just that you made a mistake, but that you (collectively, all of those who supported the resolution, and thereby made it clearly acceptable for Congress to) fought the people who weren't mistaken.


Ah, I see. So anyone who wasn't against the war from day 1 shares in the pile of bodies. That is an unfortunate truth. But tell me something: did you stop paying your taxes? After all, it's taxpayer money that funds the war machine. What? You say you'd lose your house? What about your commitment to justice? Point blank: if you're a United States citizen and you've paid taxes or paid any money to any individual, business, or corporation that pays taxes, you have helped to fund the war machine and your hands are bloody. When you consider the pile of bodies, the entire nation is guilty. Everything beyond that is a matter of degree, so I'd appreciate it if you'd take a little off the top of the self-worship.

Is there going to be wariness? Is there going to be mistrust? Is there going to be outright resentment, even anger? Nine hells, yes. You're the paroled felon working the cash register: people are gonna recount their change. The cold hard fact of life is that you have to earn the trust back, because part of the damage caused by this mistake you regret is that trust.


Not a good metaphor, because you're painting a nice little "with us or against us" picture. Wonder where I've seen that attitude before. Let me present a different picture: you're trying to block a flooding levee with sandbags. Having ignored the rain earlier but seeing the need now, I offer to help. You turn around and tell me that the time to pile sandbags was earlier, and frankly, you wouldn't trust me with a sandbag without a guard present. While I'm sure that you would feel all warm, fuzzy, and self-righteous, you'd still be spurning a pair of willing hands. And in the meantime, the water would still be pouring in. Just in case you had as much trouble understanding that picture as you did the original post, here's another way of putting it. We have a hell of a mess in this country, and you and others on this board seem to want help with it only under the condition that everyone express their unworthiness to be in your company to your satisfaction.

"I'm sorry." are honorable words; "I'm sorry, but..." are a prelude to foolish denial. There's true remorse, that makes you work hard to atone for the wrongs that you've done, and then there's pathological guilt, a buried, rankling irritation that makes you lash out at that which reminds you of the wrongs you can't come to grips with. If what you feel is really the former instead of the latter, than you need to "get the hell off it". As you yourself begin, it is a shameful thing — so show shame. That's part of your cross to bear.


So now you're parsing remorse. Wonderful. I suppose that allows you to divide people into the approved list - those who somehow manage to gain your absolution and those who don't. Of course I'm ashamed that I didn't protest this from day 1. However, you apparently think that being honest about it makes me just as steeped in blood as Donald Rumsfeld. If you want to place a clear demarcation between yourself and others, then fine - but don't expect me to applaud your obvious need to draw the line.

But sneering at those who didn't support the resolution,.


I never sneered anyone for not supporting the resolution. For someone who is so self-congratulatory with respect to his/her perception, you sure get low marks for reading comprehension on this one. Any sneering involved is for those who place themselves on a pedestal.

and even snidely implying that no such creature really exists, isn't going to convince anyone of your resolve to not get fooled again.


I never implied that "no such creature really exists." Not once, snidely or otherwise. I really don't know where you get that. Look, I'm glad you were against the resolution. I'm glad that millions were. I'm not glad that you feel the need to relegate everyone else to second-class citizenship and prance around talking about how white your robes are and how bloody everyone else's are.

That's pride messing with your head, and eventually pride's going to ask you to put the blinders back on because it's safe and comfortable while reality hurts. And in the meantime, I'm counting my change again.


I believe you'd better take a long look in the mirror before you chastise anyone about pride again. And in the interests of spurning your crappy metaphor for mine, I'll say this: I'll put sandbags in the levee whether you like me, approve of me, or respect me. But don't expect me to appreciate your need to kick sand in my face.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Maybe If Your OP Wasn't So Pre-Emptively Defensive ...
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 10:37 AM by Crisco
I'm not sure what was your intention in posting that?

Were you asking DUers who were against the war to give you, personally, a break for having supported it?

Or, were you asking us to give 2008 presidential candidates who were pro-war a break, by excusing their foolishing as an extension of excusing your own?
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Mechatanketra Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Wow.
Scads and scads of bloviating tonight, and you come up with what I want to be saying in 3 lines.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. *blows knuckles*
"Foolishing?"

Ouch.
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Mechatanketra Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Hoping to improve comprehension in both directions ...
If you read that into my post, then you've pretty much missed the boat. I don't take any pride whatsoever in having been wrong. It angers and upsets me. It only makes things worse when someone comes along and twists the knife. I think that people who do that pretty much suck.


What I read into it was a superficial resemblance to a woefully common bit of stabbing I've seen directed from the other direction: the thesis that Joe Median couldn't help but buy into the war case, which inevitably couples to an insinuation that those who (say they) didn't buy into it are either (a) ivory tower idealists who would be still peaceniks even if there was a clear threat, or (b) just plain lying — deep down, we 'all' believed in the WMDs, yada yada.

I read a lot of those posts, and I've heard a lot of it live and direct. And the sentiment that criticizing IWR support is equivalent to moral masturbation has become a red flag for me that I'm about to run into the same old apologism. You realize, a lot of people far less bothered by the war than you are still no less fond of exactly that mode of derision — it plays to one of the favorite propaganda images of the system: the liberal cocktail-party snob, spooning out his contempt for all the peons beneath him with dirt under their fingernails.

Hence, as I'd said, for the bulk of my post I was responding towards a plural "you" to which you apparently belonged (i.e. the demographic of those who would have signed the IWR and/or believe that any given Congressional rep "had" to). Hence, not everything I wrote was directly aimed at you, personally. For instance:

I never implied that "no such creature really exists." Not once, snidely or otherwise. I really don't know where you get that. Look, I'm glad you were against the resolution. I'm glad that millions were.


I got that from AZBlue, thanking you, one post just above mine. It is, by a long shot, not the first time I've heard this sentiment: that any given person (not everyone mind you, oh no, just everyone who happens to be talking now...) criticizing past war support is just expressing 20/20 hindsight.

For that part — using you as a tee-off point to talk about a broader group to which you are by far not the most vicious or extreme example of — I apologize. That was just freaking sloppy writing (I'm not even going to bother hiding behind the "oh, but it's 3 in the morning" -- I live on a graveyard shift schedule, so this is my "daytime").

I do not apologize (yet) for my basic distaste for the persistent accusation that criticism of IWR support is done simply for ego stroking. It's not about promoting myself. It's not even about promoting "us", some group to which I belong. It's about promoting the proposition that giving Bush war powers against Iraq was always an obviously bad idea. If at the end of the day, I have a choice between someone walking away thinkig "Man, that Mecha-T ought to be President! No, wait, Pope!" and "Man, there was NEVER a time when giving Bush war powers was rationally defensible, was there?" ... I know I'm picking the second one, and I have yet to see someone arguing this context who sounds like they're aiming for the first. I have repeatedly seen the second goal characterized as if it were the first ...

There is a rational reason for (still) promoting this proposition: because the people who made that exact mistake are still in charge today — not just in charge of the country, but in charge of this party. And they're still making the mistake, in a dozen different guises. (I dub this the "call on" fallacy — any time you see a Democratic politician "call on" the WH to do the right thing, you have to think they're either just making noise for the press or they're bonkers — at this juncture there is no room for a rational belief that Bush is sincerely attempting to faithfully discharge the duties of his office for the good of the nation, and is just "misguided" about how to do it.)

Not a good metaphor, because you're painting a nice little "with us or against us" picture. Wonder where I've seen that attitude before.


Conversely, your metaphor fails in precisely the only thing my off-the-cuff snark didn't: rain just happens, it's nobody's fault, and once the flood is started everyone knows it has to be stopped in toto. But somebody wanted this mess to happen (and other somebodies made a conscious decision not to stop it); like it or not, human will and intent is part and parcel of the mess, and that makes it both relevant and fair to raise questions about what intents are now. I agree, I obviously shouldn't want to spurn a pair of willing hands — but willing to do what? It's not there are Unacceptable People (Fie! Shun them!) who I won't allow to lay sandbags with their unclean hands. It's that there are people who were calling me Unacceptable (Fie! Shun him!) yesterday, and I think I get to worry over the prospect of them starting to tell me (again) how and where to put the bags. (Again: all the power in the party seems to lie in the hands of people who not only disagreed with me, but don't seem half as sick about it as you do, Dawg.)

This is something I can't stress enough: we're not talking about a quiet procedural debate here. There is bad blood to be found in the anti-IWR crowd. Of course there is. They've been accused of at best being pansies, naifs, or oversheltered deludees, and at worst of being traitors or terrorist sympathizers — all of this when, at every moment, the facts on the table said "Hey, these guys are right, and Bush is full of crap." And they get it from both sides. (And of course, at the final brink, when no charge has panned out ... well, they're just so full of themselves!) And they didn't deserve any of it. (I might, but most of them didn't.)

Believe me or not, but I'm not really sitting here at my computer saying, "Man, I'm going to make Dawg feel bad, so that I'll be able to feel powerful and validated!" The odd thing is, beyond this last post itself, it sounds like I've got no reason to be bothered by you. You say you've never supported a pro-war candidate (mind you, by this I mean pro-IWR), never voted for one, and never demeaned a IWR-opponent? But it still makes you feel sick, just to know you emotionally backed this one resolution momentarily, that you could be taken in even a little? Then you sound a lot closer to sainthood than I'm ever going to be, and I say that without sarcasm. But if everyone was like that — if they just were swayed on the inside, and never voiced it ... there wouldn't have been any political expedience to cater to.

In summary, one last time: I (and I believe most people) don't bring up early IWR opposition to laud myself, but (a) to emphasize how ordinary and unexceptional it really should have been, and (b) to prevent any fig leafs from growing over the issue — so long as large numbers of people are still actively saying "see, it wasn't really bad that people did that", someone needs to be saying "yes, it frickin' was." That's how you keep the lessons of history from being forgotten.

Postscript, In Re Bad Logic:
So anyone who wasn't against the war from day 1 shares in the pile of bodies. That is an unfortunate truth. But tell me something: did you stop paying your taxes? After all, it's taxpayer money that funds the war machine. What? You say you'd lose your house? What about your commitment to justice? Point blank: if you're a United States citizen and you've paid taxes or paid any money to any individual, business, or corporation that pays taxes, you have helped to fund the war machine and your hands are bloody.


By this chain of logic, I'm also responsible for every crime committed by the Mafia and cocaine cartels, since the laws of circulation eventually puts my money in their hands; you're conflating the act of offering funding for the event of having it robbed from you. If I stop paying taxes, all I'm doing is increasing the risk the war machine scores a twofer by Norquisting public works — screwing over Granny's pension and medication payments only compounds the injustice. This war machine isn't even being funded directly by our taxes — if it was, it'd already have gone bankrupt long ago.

The thing is, you had a much better rebuttal available to you than this tu quoque nonsense, because I was in the wrong here: I unfairly lumped you into the wrong group ("collectively, all of those who supported the resolution, and thereby made it clearly acceptable for Congress to"). It's not "not being against the war from Day 1" that buys a share of the bodies; it's actively promoting the war resolution as necessary, or ridiculing, disparaging, or otherwise seeking to discredit those who said it wasn't. If that's not you? Then that's not you — and again, I refer to the above apology about conflating the personal and plural "you", tarring you with the brush of unrelated people associated only by the coincidentally shared focus on the peacenik "high horse".

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
38. There is no excuse for invading another country outside of self-defense.
Just like it says in the UN Charter. All of our current problems are the result of ignoring this simple moral truth.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
39. You are a Joe Citizen. You got informed, but late in the game.
I expect better of people who are PAID to know this stuff with taxpayers' money.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
42. Did you also believe people steal elections for honorable reasons? n/t
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
44. live and learn
you weren't a member of Congress
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
47. good post and thanks. you are not a fool.
but someone who can change their mind and not get all hooked up on their egos. There are plenty of people out there that won't change because of that stupid reason. it takes guts to admit you've been wrong and I for one appreciate it.

I would call you a fool if you still supported this Fiasco - just like I'm calling all the so-called 'leaders' on all sides who had initially supported this crime and who still support this travesty - shame on them, They are the ones who should apologize and feel badly, not You.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
52. I was always against the war but wouldn't chastise anyone for gaining more
wisdom, we all can do that, wherever we are.

Good for you for using your head and changing your mind where it was a wise thing to do rather than hanging on and being afraid of learning, as the freepers and other kool-aid drinkers do.

More and more Americans are waking up most likely, too. The experience with Chimpy is hopefully to be learned from and therefore not repeated.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
54. Senators and congressmen should be held to a higher standard
than citizens who are not in a position to make those decisions.

ALL of the information about this rush to war was available (although carefully hidden from the public) on the internet, from Poppy's friends writing opeds, from the foreign media. ALL of it.

I remember gnashing my teeth at Kerry, et al, sending him faxes, letters, emails, calling and leaving messages getting nothing in reponse other than Limbaugh talking point emails back.

It was a herd mentality worthy of a fucking lynch mob out to get Anyone Anyone at all, and it was NOT worthy of the US Congress, and I'll be damned if I'll sit here and listen to someone tell me to get off my 'high horse' when this clusterfuck could have been stopped with a REAL LIVE CONGRESS doing its CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED job.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
55. Better late than never
:pals:
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