Tony Blankley Sez Xtian Xmas Celebrations Predate Winter Solstice Celebrations

[stopbush]

On Friday's McLaughlin Group, Tony Blankley asserted that the Xians started celebrating Xmas on December 25th
long before pagans used the same date to celebrate the Winter Solstice. Everyone else on the panel disagreed with him,
so he kept shouting "you're wrong." Eventually, he said that they were following "19th century beliefs" and that
modern research supported his assertions. He said they all had it backwards.

And this guy runs the editorial pages of the Washington Times. He probably has other research that shows humans
coexisting with dinosaurs.

No transcript up yet, so you'll just have to take my word on it.

[NovaNardis]

1. Is he goddamn insane?

Paganism predates CHRISTIANITY ITSELF. Unbe-fucking-leivable.

And it shows the real spirit of conservatism. If you are wrong, and caught, just scream so people will think you are so right.

[kestrel91316]

19. He's not insane. He's just following the Goebbels playbook:

if you tell a lie often enough and loudly enough it BECOMES the truth.

It has always worked for the RW. Why stop now???

[burythehatchet]

2. In all fairness

he did say he had "read up" on it.

[Joe Bacon]

105. I guess he read too many Jack Chick comics

Now I wonder why he didn't bring up THE DEATH COOKIE"?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

4. That's pretty insane

I guess he might get there by defining pagans as 20th century pagans? I don't know - he might well be crazy.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NanceGreggs]

5. No problem taking your word for it ...

Had you quoted this idiot as having said something rational and intelligent, THAT is something I would have a hard time believing.

[Bridget Burke]

6. The Catholic Encyclopedia is conservative & old fashioned....

And it says the Church adapted the date of the Mithraic festival of the Unconquerable Sun to celebrate the birth of Christ. Other festivities around the date of the Solstice are also mentioned.

Yes, Tony Blankley is an idiot. But you already knew that.

Edited to add this link: www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

[Trajan]

9. Festival of Sol Invictus ...

Some say that this is where Frank Costanza derived the name of the winter celebration known as 'Festivus' ....

There is no direct evidence that this is true, however ...

[spoony]

73. Hippolytus disagrees, still.

I do tire of saying this, but history cannot be boiled down to "Christians stole everything from the pagans." There are so many people in this thread saying "that guy's an idiot!" but there's nothing deeper to their objections. It's stunning how people react so violently to anything that disrupts their soundbyte worldviews.

[Bridget Burke]

101. Where did I say that "Christians stole everything from the Pagans"?

Most religions/cultures build on what came before them. My cite gave examples of how the Church adapted previous celebrations--there was nothing "secret" about it. Practices that sprang from Christianity have become part of the secular world, with no specific religious content.

Share with us your knowledge of Hippolytus. Is he Tony Blankley's source?

[warrens]

7. More revisionist history: Facts are their enemy. NT

[Eurobabe]

8. This guy is a fucking moron, I am still pissed at him for his nasty Clark 04

comments, but in the end he was right. Errr, not about the Christians predating the pagans though. Has he heard of Stonehenge? the pyramids?

What a douche. That's why he works for that MOONIE rag the Washington Times

[jeff30997]

11. What are you talking about ?

Everybody knows that it's Jesus that built Stonehenge and the pyramids.:P

[Eurobabe]

23. OOOPS, my bad. I fergot.

[semillama]

29. WRONG!!!

Elvis built the pyramids, as Mojo Nixon rightly taught us.

[AzDar]

74. OT, but ..do you know what's going on in that Bermoooda Triangle?

...Elvis eats boats, Elvis eats boats...
:rofl:
Loves me sum Mojo!

[flakey_foont]

10. hmmm

well, Mr Smarty Pants.....dinosaurs DID co-exist with humans....it say so right cheer

<<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6216788.stm>>

as far as December 25....I believe that it was a Roman festival of SOL INVICTUS = "the Invicible Sun" which was adopted by the Xtians..........has anyone ever found any birth records in Bethlehem, circa 0 A.D.,,, born to Joe and Mary Christ, ...or any announcement in the local Bethlehem Weekly Gleaner,,, of the birth, also in attendance were several shepherds, and 3 Kings from Orient Are,,, as well as assorted angels, cherubs, seraphim, and a little drummer boy

[jeff30997]

13. Lol!

"We're going to turn that on its head, and use dinosaurs to show that the Bible presents the true history of the world. We have people, and dinosaurs, together."

They watched the Flintstones too many times.:silly:

[Ferretherder]

97. Ya Know, they are probably RIGHT,...

...though in a TOTALLY unexpected way, jeff30997.

According to current theory, when you see a little Wren or Hummingbird fly past your window, you just saw a descendant of the Dinosaurs defying gravity!

Of course, the idiot fundamentalists who spew this bullshit would only look stupidly at you and say, 'Whaaa?', if you informed them of this.

[Norquist Nemesis]

12. Well, that's the thing about "modern research", Tony

It's re-writing history.

[Virginia Dare]

14. He's an ignorant moron then...

or a blatant liar.

[acmejack]

20. All of the above...

[EstimatedProphet]

15. Now you know why I don't read the Washington Times n/t

[mike_c]

16. fundies hate facts....

Sheesh.

[EstimatedProphet]

17. What these idiots want isn't real Christianity, it's TV Christianity

They want a world where everything adheres to their beliefs, gleaned off of Father Knows Best and Ozzie and Harriet. They want a world as unbelieveable as 50's sitcoms. They want Pleasantville, where no one questions Christianity or talks about evolution, and everyone wears sweater vests and greases their hair and sings doo-wop songs.

[unpossibles]

22. close, but greasers back then were the punks, so that's not allowed

and doo-wop was one of those "colored" (please forgive me; I only use that to fit the 50s time period. I hate that word) music forms.

What they want is crew cuts and Pat Boone.

[EstimatedProphet]

75. Even more true.

[skyblue]

26. There Ya Go! Bubble. BELIEF IN GAWD IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Or to learn to love your neighbor and live in a peacefulish society.

[Sequoia]

18. Humans and dinosaurs

Curiously some believe they have...that mot all dinosaurs died off and perhaps some did linger. Not the huge ones, but there have been ancient drawings on Ica stones that show some of these that were still around. Just think of Loch Ness and why that story still persists.

http://skepdic.com/icastones.html

[denverbill]

21. Ask Tony why they call 'Easter' 'Easter'.

Shouldn't it be called something related to Christianity? Or at least something related to Passover? Call it Spring Christmas or Resurrection Day or something instead of naming it after some Scandinavian goddess of spring.

[villager]

30. ask him why it's related to othe goddess "Eostar"

and ask him where the rabbit and egg fertility symbols came from...

[Trajan]

33. Eastre ... Ishtar ... Astarte ...

ALL are the same spring fertility deity ...

[villager]

37. Yes!

n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Yeah, but that's just in English and some other Germanic languages

Romance languages have names for Easter derived from the Hebrew for 'Passover' - which makes more sense, because the 2 are associated.

http://www.ajjan.com/2006/04/easter-etymology.html

And the date was fixed before Germanic tribes were converted to Christianity - in that case, some just took the name of a festival from around the same time, and carried on using the name for the Christian festival.

[obreaslan]

24. I know a few Babylonians that might disagree with him. n/t

[NorthernSpy]

25. What the hell does he think Stonehenge is?

The ruins of the First Baptist Church of Neolithic Britain?


:dunce:

[Jackpine Radical]

27. Beam me outta here, Scotty.

No intelligent life in this thread.

[Beaverhausen]

28. Not to knitpik but the Solstice is usually on the 21st- he's still an ass

[TechBear_Seattle]

31. To pick the nits on the nits you are picking...

At one time, the winter solstice usually fell on December 25, which is why Christmas was placed on that day (and, for similar reasons, why Easter is dated from March 25 and why the Feast of St. John the Baptist was placed on June 25.)

Because of a phenomenon called precession, the occurances of the solstices and equinoxes have appeared to move backwards relative to the calendar.

[Beaverhausen]

42. that's interesting about precession. Thanks

And a blessed solstice to you!

[Left Is Write]

72. And wasn't Solstice/December 25 celebrated as the birth date of Mithra?

[TechBear_Seattle]

88. Among many other deities

Pretty much every god and goddess associated with the sun had a birthday or other feast on the day of the winter solstice.

[sandnsea]

35. Chanukah is the 25th of Kiev

Adopted to the 25th of December with the Gregorian calendar. That's where the actual date came from, the tradition of greenery came from the Solstice.

[kineneb]

32. Dec. 25: Celebration of Natalis Solis Invictis

Sorry, Tony, but a simple Google search turned up this site:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/dec21.htm

Dec. 25

After Caesar's reform, this day became the traditional Dies Natalis Solis Invictus, The Day of the Birth of the Invincible Sun, instead of the more precise solstice of 21-22.

The early Christian leaders moved Christmas here from January 6th, the date of Jesus' birth. Although the name of this holiday has been altered, it continues to be a festival of joy, peace, feasting, and goodwill to men. Helios was the god honored this day.

The illiterate barbarian king Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Romans this day in 800 by the Pope, who had the right to do so by default. He was, in name, the first emperor of the Western Roman empire since 460 AD. His lands split three ways, amongst his sons, when he died but the title passed to the kingship of what are now Germany and Austria. The title actually passed in direct succession right up to Kaiser (Caesar) Wilhelm in WWI, who was the last man on earth who could claim the title Emperor of the Romans.

In ancient Persia, this day was celebrated as Atargatis, while Mesopotamians celebrated it as the Day of Astarte, the mother goddess.

[Book Lover]

34. Damn! I missed the McLaughlin Group one week, and Tony says this?!

Did even Pat B. disagree?

[DrunkenMaster]

36. Hilarious Debate!

My Invisible Sky God was invented before your Invisible Sky Goddess!

Awesome!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Funny how an "Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent" GOD needs defending.

You'd think that any self-respecting deity could take care of itself, fight it's own battles, not to mention handle it's own finances.

Pass the basket.

[Arugula Latte]

39. Christianity co-opted X-mas, Easter, so many other things

from pagan traditions.

Get a clue, Tony.

[EST]

40. What really pissed me off about that exchange was that

the other idiot panelists didn't turn on him and say, "Tony, you are a fucking ignorant, unprincipled, lying, moronic excuse for an idiot" and then refuse to talk to him or listen to him for the remainder of the decade.

[dogday]

41. Are Democrats expected to be tolerant of all religions?

I got blasted the other day because I mentioned my slum lord was Morman... I was told I was a bigot.. I was told replace the word Jew with Morman. I was told replace the word Black and Muslim with Morman. So if all of that is off limits just over that religion and is considered bigotry, why are all these other comments about Christianity not?

I really would like someone to explain it to me, cause I want to be tolerant and respectful to all religions or lack thereof, not a select few, it just doesn't not seem right somehow.....

[Buzz Clik]

44. Good question. Don't expect an answer.

[dogday]

47. I got an answer

I spelled Mormon wrong and there are no disparaging threads...:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Morman?

Do you mean, perhaps, mormon?

"I got blasted the other day because I mentioned my slum lord was Morman... I was told I was a bigot."

I suspect it was for something other than mentioning your landlord was Mormon. What did you actually say?

"Are Democrats expected to be tolerant of all religions?"

Yes.

"So if all of that is off limits just over that religion and is considered bigotry, why are all these other comments about Christianity not?"

If you see anybody actually disparaging Christianity, hit alert. Do you really see any?

[dogday]

46. You see no disparaging Christianity threads?

none at all? I am asking the question and yes I did spell it wrong, see I don't even know the spelling of it... But I just want to be able to be politically correct and I am asking what is right and wrong...

At least I found out how to spell Mormon.... Thanks for that....

on edit: I see on deleted sub-thread... someone decided something needed to be removed....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. Nope.

I see threads disparaging fundamentalism, nothing disparaging Christianity.

Frankly, this stuff about Christian's being oppressed smells like that bullshit about white people being victims of "reverse racism."

Now what were you saying about your landlord?

[dogday]

50. See deleted sub-thread

should of seen the comments...... I won't repeat them cause I am trying to be politically correct with everyone.....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. I did see it.

There was one very unchristian like guy whining about the abbreviation "Xtian" and other guys giving him well asked for flames.

Nothing disparaging of Xtianity, except for the "fuck Christians" comment which was sarcasm.

Now, have you got any legitimate example?

[dogday]

54. I didn't remove the comments

Mods did, take it up with them... I want to be politically correct for all religions, including Christians, shouldn't I be? Again, I read them and they were removed, end of story....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. You're claiming people are disparaging Christians here...

Yet you're not backing up this claim.

So what was it you said about the landlord?

[dogday]

57. Strawman much? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Strawman?

:rofl:

what on earth are you talking about?

[dogday]

62. What you are doing now

changing the fact that you say it is okay to berate religions.. It is not, not anyone's religion..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. LOL

Where have I said it's OK to berate religions?

[Zhade]

67. On the contrary - there is NO requirement whatsoever that we respect ANY religion.

We are expected to respect the person holding such beliefs, but the beliefs themselves are not off-limits from criticism.

If you think they are, you're wrong - they're not. Wacky beliefs don't get a pass just because they happen to be religious.

[Arugula Latte]

76. Amen (pardon the phrasing).

I happen to think that a good portion religious beliefs are borderline insane. Immaculate conceptions? 70 + virgins in heaven upon death? A world created in six days? Angels? A dude coming back to life to "save" us? People being sucked up into the sky? A place where you burn eternally? Uhhhh -- yeeeeah. I do not "respect" those beliefs; however, I respect the Constitution that says people are entitled to hold whatever crazyass ideas they want to have. Just don't inflict 'em on me.

[Zhade]

78. Exactly. It's nonsense, but people are entitled to believe it.

Likewise, we're entitled to call it crazy nonsense, which it is.

[dogday]

83. It is actually called manners

and respecting someone and what they believe in no matter what it is...

[Zhade]

94. I repeat: there is absolutely no requirement that I respect anyone's beliefs.

I don't respect racist beliefs.

I don't respect supernatural beliefs lacking any evidence, either.

And I don't have to. That's the beauty of freedom - I can call mythical nonsense what it is, and will if I decide to.

If speaking my mind is bad manners, oh well.

[dogday]

102. Like you said Oh Well nt

[dogday]

56. So can we replace other religions and say that?

Fuck Jews--Fuck Muslims--Fuck Mormons and be considered sarcastic? I don't think so... It is not a nice thing to say about any religion.... Or any group or people for that matter....


I learned my lesson about bigotry that day, that everyone is equal, even religions... I hope you will learn yours.....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Sure.

If it's sarcastic, it ain't bigotry.

We often mock bigotry around here.

"I learned my lesson about bigotry that day, that everyone is equal, even religions... "

Did you?

"I hope you will learn yours....."

I already know it.

[dogday]

60. No you really don't

you are trying way to hard to excuse it and it is not right to do it to anyone... But you keep on thinking it is....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. dogday...

Show me an honest example of somebody disparaging Christianity and I'll condemn it.

[dogday]

63. If you saw that sub paragraph

then you saw one or two honest examples... You honestly did... Why do you think the paragraph was sub deleted? I did not contact the mods....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. I didn't see any honest examples.

If you would like to quote or create any fictional examples, I'd sure like to see what you consider to be disparaging of christianity.

"Why do you think the paragraph was sub deleted?"

I imagine, the subthread was deleted because the first person's response to the OP was deleted, and the subsequent flames were deleted since the problem was taken care of.

[dogday]

66. I ask the original question, just give me the answer please

Are all religions treated the same by Democrats... I want to be politically correct... Am I being politically correct by not wanting to say anything adverse against any religion....

You said "except for the "fuck Christians" comment which was sarcasm."

You say sarcasm, I say insult... That is just two differences of opinion....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. You see insult?

Well, it was a flame war about the use of the word "fuck," the use of the abbreviations "Xtian," and percieved disparaging of Xtians, so it's a bit of a stretch that the comment "fuck the Xtians" is anything but a facetious comment.

[dogday]

82. It is your opinion vs mine

You see it one way, I see it another... I like my way better... I will try very hard not to insult anyone for their beliefs or lack thereof and that is what I feel.....

[Zhade]

79. "Fuck Christians" is not attacking Christianity, but Christians.

And it is wrong to say that - people have a right to choose whatever religion they wish to believe in.

"Fuck Christianity", on the other hand, is NOT attacking people for being Christians, it is attacking their belief system, and there is no, repeat NO, requirement that Christianity be revered.

None.

There is a major difference between attacking religious beliefs and attacking those who hold them. Don't conflate the two; it's not accurate.

[dogday]

81. I did not say it was attacking

I said it was insulting a religious group... I don't confuse the two.


"And it is wrong to say that - people have a right to choose whatever religion they wish to believe in." :wtf:


Sorry never said that, said I respect all religions or lack thereof and will not insult any of them..


I don't think you should attack anyone for what they believe, but that's just me....

[Zhade]

93. Um, again, attacking their beliefs is not attacking them for what they believe.

NT!

[Buzz Clik]

99. Well, let's consider the Dawkins approach:

Dawkins has stated repeatedly that peoople who believe in any deity -- not just the Christian God, but any deity at all -- are naive fools at the best, but more likely willingly and willfully ignorant.

Is that an attack?

[dogday]

103. That does not even make sense

their beliefs are what they believe... come on.....

[Warren DeMontague]

69. No. I don't.

Such a thing would be against the rules.

I see people criticizing the religious right, I see people making fun of creationists who want a 6,000 year old Earth taught in public school science class, I see people attacking the agenda of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, I see people raging against the platform of the Republican Party that seeks to criminalize the birth control pill as part of what they consider "Christian Values"...

But I don't see widespread "Christian Bashing", no.

[Buzz Clik]

91. You have GOT to be kidding!

Anti-Christian threads open up daily at DU. If you doubt it, do a search on "Dawkins" and see what get pinched out. Hold your nose and wear Latex gloves.

[Zhade]

95. Probably more accurate to say "anti-Christianity".

Which is not, of course, against the rules.

[Buzz Clik]

106. DU rules aside for a moment....

I have not read every subthread in this discussion, but I've noticed that recurring theme that one can attack Christianity (or other religion) without attacking the believers. I suppose that's possible: saying "I don't believe Jesus ever existed" is not a direct attack on those who believe he did exist. It's merely expressing an opinion.

However, it's a different argument entirely when someone says, "Muslim is a religion of hate, and raising children in that environment is criminal." Or, "Mormon women are so dominated by their men that they clearly are being denied basic human rights." In both cases, the attack is on the believers as well as the religion.

Surely you see the difference.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Oh, that meeeeeean ol' Dawkins.

Having the temerity to point out that there's no scientific evidence to back up, say, the Genesis creation account. Where does he get off? :eyes:

I suppose if you're someone who considers an atheist openly saying "I don't belive in (your) God" to be an "anti-Christian attack", sure, you're going to find Christianity bashing everywhere. Because this is one (rare) place where the atheists aren't so outnumbered as to have their voices drowned out.

[Buzz Clik]

98. What is it with certain DUers that they MUST extrapolate?

I suppose if you're someone who considers an atheist openly saying "I don't belive in (your) God" to be an "anti-Christian attack"

Well, Ace, let me ask you a question or three:
1. What makes you think I'm a Christian?
2. What makes you think I believe in God?
3. What makes you think my objection to Dawkins over-inflated ego (and his drooling fans) has anything at all to do with his atheism?

Now, being a typical attack dog for the Dawkins doggie brigade, you won't answer one of those questions. So, we'll let it go at this: wouldn't you rather find out where I'm coming from before you launch into a boorish attack? Or, is ignorance truly bliss?

P.S. These were rhetorical questions. I'm not interested in your answers.
P.P.S. My post script was a pre-emptive strike. But I'm really not interested in your answers any more than you're interested in my opinions.

[Warren DeMontague]

100. Well, all righty then.

Would ya like to buy a monkey?

[dogday]

104. It is more phrases like Fuck Christians

which was deleted in the above thread that concerns me.... I believe in your belief not to believe... Silly me, why should I respect that? Cause I respect all beliefs or not.

[Warren DeMontague]

107. I agree that that statement would be out of line

but judging from what remains un-deleted up there, it looks like you're slightly misrepresenting what was actually said and ignoring the context which certainly sounds relevant.

Nevertheless, that statement would be out of line (and against the rules). Whether it amounts to wholesale "Christian bashing" on this board is something else, entirely.

I respect everyone's right to their own beliefs, too. I think the problem many people have with Christianity as it is practiced by some in the US today*, and as it is represented in the Religious Right*, is that (in addition to trying to institute a Christ-based theocracy, criminalize the birth control pill, get creationism taught in schools, etc. etc. etc.) those folks and belief systems don't respect the rights of non-Christians or other unbelievers, and hyped up, tooth gnashing, hysterical-wailing, "playing the victim" (witness the phony "war on christmas") also happens to be another tack in the religious right's playbook.

*Please note that neither of those statements refer to, are intended to refer to, or can be inferred to refer to All Christians.

[dogday]

108. NO I am repeating exactly what was said

Read the other posts and you will see another poster writes he saw it as well.... I know what I saw and so do others... That simple...


BTW If I saw Fuck Jews or Fuck Muslims, I would be just as concerned about those statements as well.....

I will agree one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch..... But it is not the representation of all, and for that I am respectful.....

[Left Is Write]

71. Are you separating Mormonism from Christianity?

[dogday]

86. I am not separating anything... I want

to respect all groups of people... Why is that so hard for some to understand?

[Buzz Clik]

92. Awesome!

:yourock:

I was called a militant Christian for my trouble.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. LOL

Apparently he's gotten Wicca confused with actual ancient pagan rites.

Oh well, it's a common mistake.

[spanone]

48. He's a buffoon.

[Ioo]

51. Yah elignment of the Earth / Sun is so Pre 9/11

Man this guy is a total moron

[truebrit71]

52. He is out of his tiny fucking mind....

Pagans celebrated the Winter Solstice before there was a Christ....therefore how could they have celebrated Christmas....?

What a fucking moran...

[Warren DeMontague]

68. He probably thinks the Earth is 6,000 years old, too.

Fuckin' Genius.

[NashVegas]

70. This Is What I Was Getting At in My "War FOR Christmas" Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2901856

I just think it's about time that people sitting on the sidelines, laughing about the silliness of it all, wake up and realize that, like the RW attacks on the so-called "liberal" media of the 1990s, this attack has a purpose. That purpose is to engage in a war for, not on, Christmas.

[AnnieBW]

80. Did He Fail History?

People have been celebrating the Winter Solstice long before Jesus showed up. Saturnalia, Yule, Diwali, even Hanukkah predate Christianity.

What a maroon.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

84. What else would you expect from a Moonie???? eom

[Geek_Girl]

85. Maybe he's thinking of Neo-pagans

:shrug:

[eppur_se_muova]

89. Bloated bags of flammable gas predate Tony Blankley.

But he IS the biggest, with the Hindenburg gone.

[Megahurtz]

90. NOT!

The truth must really be bothering him.}(