The Human capacity to Destroy has far surpassed

[Ripley]

its ability to Create. New paradigms are created daily by esoteric winners who find it more pleasant to speak from above it all. Human behavior has never really evolved, only the evolution of technology combined with the pain of hunger and the illusion of comfort where the Human Animal becomes *civilized.*

Consider Yourself gifted because You have found THE Truth. Your eyes can remain closed as You continue to draw the outlines of the World in Your own colors and morals. Don’t budge, You KNOW that You have the answer. Modernity, anonymity and instant gratification have simultaneously connected people across the planet to one another and yet shredded whatever accountability we had to one another when we shared the same patch of Earth under our feet.

Pack behavior is Easy and so eerily predictable to watch. I suppose the term “divide and conquer” is apropos and an eventuality. Occasionally age brings wisdom about these things, simply by the repetition of it all.

This is but an observation of Cycles that continue without forward progress actually being made. Perhaps one day We can lose our polished Cynism and hard-earned Hipness and admit things are not what they Obviously Seem To Be. And allow that another Human’s POV is valid from where they stand and that blind allegiance to Anything is dangerous.

There is absolutely no sane reason to continue (or Surge) the War and its inherent death, destruction, destabilization and sheer feeding of the Darkest Despair which will no doubt increase.

[Deja Q]

1. "Space Seed" had the same message, some40 years ago...

"Star Trek" (TOS at least) hasn't dated very much...

[Ripley]

4. Good Scifi is Beautiful.

In its ability to foretell both the possible Positive Evolutions and the more likely Ugly paths We keep retreading over and over and over, just in different costumes.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. even older than that.

the yew longbow was considered such a devastating weapon, that people actually talked about outlawing war.
The crossbow was so easy to use by mere peasants and could destroy the armor of the best trained knight, that popes, kings and princes argued that it was just too effective to allow in battle. Some french kings actually killed anyone caught with a crossbow.
Let's skip a few centuries.
The machine gun was so deadly, that people thought it was the end of the world. War could conceivable kill every man woman and child.
The airplane and large floating airships could bring bombs long distances.
The artillery shell killed hundreds of thousands in WWI, and was thought to be the biggest danger to man, especially when combined with mustard gas and other poisons.
The atom bomb replaced those weapons as the threat to all society.

no, the real threat, the real danger, and the real problem is that humanity is good at war. It is in our nature. under pressure, we apply our creative forces and come up with ever more powerful tools of war. Man is the biggest threat to man. Period.

[BlooInBloo]

Shorter Ripley: There are more religion-y folks than scientists.

[PreacherCasey]

9. Too simplistic.

Having a scientific mind is not enough. It seems to me that lack of empathy and too much ego are our main problems as a species (amongst others, surely). It seems we can't get past our reptilian brain's knee jerk responses to problems. While these violent, destructive impulses often manifest themselves subtly on a daily basis (name-calling, jealousy, envy, ect), consider that these same impulses are at work on a much larger, more apparent scale (war). Until we are ready to drive to work without cursing out the guy who cut us off, or to talk behind each other's backs, or get jealous of person flirting with our significant other, we are not really ready to embrace peace or non-violence.

[villager]

2. yes. Where did the ridiculous meme that "man is basically good"

start, anyway, given all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary...

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. A man, in the singular, is basically good, usually.

Men in the plural are generally not. People are generally all right, as individuals; it's when they form into groups (tribes, nations, etc) that the trouble starts.

[villager]

11. well, that's an interesting point. So "mankind" is not basically good,

but the individual away from the madding crowd is.

Hmmmm.

I'm not even sure all tribes were bad, though clearly some were fairly bloodthirsty. But man, when city/states and nation/states came along, it was all over for the "better angels of our nature..."

[Ripley]

15. Greed, Gossip and Bullying

Those Human characteristics pretty much overshadow all the "better angel" traits and clearly Humans have reached Critical Mass on this planet with their ability to not only kill one another, but entire animal species, oceans and in fact, land masses. Earth itself is under assault and Sierra Club ain't gonna save the day.

[Az]

12. Close

People form societies because of our natural empathy for one another. It is for the betterment of all (inclusive) that this is done for. As society becomes more complex it becomes increasingly difficult to internalize all the ins and outs of it. And new ideas creep into the mindset as well. Particularly in a consumer society such as ours where the constant drum beat of consumer and conquest are driven into our skulls on a daily basis. Soon people lose sight of the fact that we are connected. We become increasingly isolated in our technology and consumerism.

So yeah, people and society are basically good. But .... we can learn to be bad and often do.

[villager]

14. people seem basically... fearful, above all else

I'd love to see big heaping chunks of evidence -- modern, from-the-headline type evidence -- to the contrary...

[Az]

17. Go to a mall

Stand in the middle of the mall with all the consumerism and greed around you and trip. Fall down. Watch how fast it pulls those around you out of their own private little worlds.

Watch any disaster. You will see the same thing time and time again. People rushing into danger to help those they don't even know even at their own expense.

Yes, we are being made fearful. For the simple reason that fear is a motivator. It causes us to do things. Predictably. Marketters and budget makers like predictability. Its so much easier to market fear than it is to market creativity. No one can be sure if something creative will hit or not. But scare the crap outa someone and you got them right where you want them.

We are basically good. The simple undeniable evidence of this is the fact that we do live in societies. We are social creatures. Our vary wiring brings us together in order to help each other survive. Thats good.

[villager]

21. but then again, we're a species that ignores eco-collapse because solving it

is "too hard" and "too expensive," etc.

I don't want to argue with you, but I think the question of our innate goodness is still unresolved -- in retrospect, the cockroach scientists might someday ask -- is a species that destroys its own biosphere essentially "good?"

I hope you're more right than I am, though -- I have two kids.

And yes, right -- I believe those boys are essentially "good."

[PreacherCasey]

22. It seems to me that people are neither essentially good nor bad.

We are essentially blank slates with some genetic predispositions toward certain behaviors. After birth, the tape recorder starts. Our minds record information. We learn to recognize our Mother's voice, to sit up, crawl, walk and eventually, how to deal with obstacles which arise in our lives. If we keep our minds open and we can come to see the virtue of certain actions and the utter futility of others. However, when we settle on a particular world view or definition of "success", our minds close and we look only for "evidence" to support our chosen worldview. We prejudice our interpretation of reality in order to suit our chosen world view. We rationalize, we stereotype, we accept "easy" answers to terribly complex problems and assert them as indisputable truth. I certainly believe we are our own worst enemy in many respects.


edit: speeelingsz

[Ripley]

23. Yes to all of that on an individual scale..

However, the largest threat right now is how the masses are so easily manipulated. For example, right here the conventional wisdom is that the MSM is a propaganda arm of the RNC, yet I would guesstimate nearly half of the threads here are either directly from those sources or are gossipy, point-and-laugh type posts which are merely a flip-side of the dreaded conservative sites that do the same thing from their collective POV.

If You are unable to See the way You are gamed, You are no better than the *freeptard sheeple* who vote Republican, golf, think Bose is real hi-fi and Starbucks is real coffee, wear Izod or Old Navy and live for American Idol.

Like I said, pack mentality is easy and everyone wants to fit into the Group so badly, they disregard their own misgivings for fear of rejection if they were to step out of line.

[PreacherCasey]

24. Agreed. You are describing the symptoms of the disease...

I see the "pack mentality" as a consequence of the individual's desire to make truth conform to his particular POV in order to further himself IN THE SHORT TERM, regardless of possible long term repercussions. The individual remains largely apathetic to politics as long as his needs and most of his wants are being met. Thus, he implicitly buys into the system which created the conditions conducive to his short term benefit. I think this is where the "pack mentality" comes into it. He (like most other individuals who will now make up "the masses") is generally ok with the way things are going and doesn't want to rock the boat. He craves security in every aspect of life. Meanwhile the people in charge continue tweaking the system to benefit themselves more and more while making sure to keep their underlings "just happy enough". Control of the media, military, and government in general certainly help accomplish this.

However, twisting the truth can not be beneficial in the long run. You can deny Global Warming, economic destabilization, the effects of hegemonic foreign policy, ect. in order to benefit in the short term, but it will always come back to bite you in the long term. The effects are becoming more apparent everyday. While most people are quick to complain and throw their support to those with pre-packaged "solutions", few are able to point the finger back at themselves and see that it is their individual acquisitiveness, envy, violent nature, and jealousy which are being manifested in the society they themselves created.

People need to wake up and realize that EVERYTHING they read and see on TV is biased in one way or another. EVERYTHING. Some bias is unintentional, some quite the opposite. The human race needs free thinking individuals with the best interests of humanity at heart to get together and spread the word.

P.S. I appreciate being able to have this discussion with you on this forum. I feel it is a fundamental issue which gets too little attention.

[bryant69]

3. Is this reality? Or Battlestar Galactaca?

Could go either way.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Lasthorseman]

5. Oh no

we are creating always, but that creation is a double edged sword. We harnessed the atom and with it came to power to heat many homes or to destroy many homes. We harnessed the gene sequence and what did Monsanto do? They made seeds that won't produce seeds. http://www.ethicalinvesting.com/monsanto/terminator.shtml

We gave the world a means to communicate via the internet yet as fast as that comes up the forces of censorship rise. No we have not learned a single thing.
Ishmael A book by Daniel Quinn. Really good reading.

[Az]

7. I disagree

Our capacity to recognise and make note of destruction is perhaps more active than our ability to recognise positive creative efforts. But our actual ability to destroy is far ourpaced by our creativity.

Walk outside right now. Walk up and down the street. I can do this in Detroit and not be assaulted by any individuals. There are houses everywhere. People living together in peace. For the most part.

Yes there is violence and destruction out there. But by a large measure peace and harmony are the norm. It is because destruction and violence are so unusual that we notice them and become concerned about it. Yes we need to work to make it better. But losing site of the positive does not help us in the end.

[Ripley]

10. I did not say to lose sight of the positive.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

But if You are living in such a cocoon as to not See the coming economic collapse and ever-increasing environmental disasters on a Global Scale that will yield Water Wars, Immigration conflicts and competition that will, yes WILL be felt by the average American citizen.. well. Good Luck in Your DreamWorld.

[Az]

13. You say that like America

is the end all and be all of the world. Yeah, I think the US is about to get thrown from its pedestal. Yeah, bad for us here. But in the global scale of things? Maybe not such a bad thing. Our corrupted notion of consume and we're number one has tainted much of the world. And the rest of the world seems to get that our ecology is in trouble so us getting drubbed from the top spot would seem to be a good thing for the world as well.

Here is the thing. Societies heal. Yeah, we may be heading for a pretty nasty bit of social collapse. There may even be some chaos. But the people tend to go on living. New ways come from past rubble. Just because your way of life comes to an end doesn't mean all life comes to an end.

[PreacherCasey]

16. I think the point is that even though socieities heal, it

doesn't look like they learn from past mistakes (theirs or others). The cycle of violence continues. In the whole of human history, has there been one example of a free, peaceful society?

[Az]

18. Societies move slowly

It takes time for ideas to perculate through them. There will always be those on the leading edge that embrace social change and progress and there will always be those on the trailing edge rejecting change and holding to old ways. From time to time the trailing edge will build up and attempt to overthrow the progress. This happens from time to time and they sometimes are even succesful. But progress starts up again and builds on past accomplishments.

We all are where we are by standing on the shoulders of giants. People and groups from the past have figured out things that stick with us. Yeah there is the occaisional bump trying to shove things back. And that certainly can drive tensions high. But over time (a lot of time) we are moving forward.

[PreacherCasey]

20. I can appreciate what you are saying.

I can say that humans have evolved (leaving technology aside) slightly from instinctive hunter-gatherers to relatively compassionate entities today, but only very slightly. The basic drives are the same: greed, envy, jealousy, ego. I really don't see much progress in understanding these basic human motivators.

[Ripley]

19. Thanks, Preacher

We have all heard about the tipping point when used in describing typical "cycles." Perhaps a recession here, blackouts there.

The type of Warfare the US is now engaged in is openly Corporate, deceptively about Freedom and ignored by most people as "just another conflagration in some unknown part of the world."

I cannot believe I am hearing "business as usual" from people here.

But then again, yeah, I do.