So, My question about universal health care . . .

[WVHillbilly]

A bit about me.

I'm a middle age guy. I am a very moderate democrat, who occassionally votes third party. In the past, I never could figure who would screw up healthcare worse, insurance companies or government. I have slowly come to the conclusion that some type of universal health access is needed. BUT, I still have one major concern, particularly after a particular law that got passed in Ohio.

The question is this, if we go to universal health care, either single payer or some other form, how much government control should goverment get over my lifestyle?

Examples. Should smoking be made illegal? What about obesity? I am a very fit cyclist, so should I pay more to support the healthcare of the morbidly obese, or smokers. On the other hand, I whitewater kayak, and even paraglide. I could get seriously injured or paralized, which could cost a lot of money. SHould my activities be the subject of some risk benefit analysis?

That is my fear with universal healthcare. It almost demands more government control over daily life? Or is there a way to fix that aspect?

[Warren Stupidity]

1. None.

Go look at all of the other modern industrial democracies - they all have universal single payer healthcare and none of them have used that to justify this sort of fascist intrusion into your life. Stop the fear mongering right now. Stop it. UHC works all over the world delivering better service at lower cost than our crappy corrupt system.

By the way, private healthcare insurance policies issuers are free to raise your rates for your smoking, your obesity, your dangerous lifestyle, your genetic background, and of course your current health profile.

[gatorboy]

4. I was about to say...

Under our current private healthcare insurance policy that our work provides, smoking is already forbidden.

Aren't seat belts mandatory? Car insurance in most states? The government already had their thumb on the populace when it comes to telling us what is best safety-wise. Sounds to me like the OP has more of a problem with supporting the healthcare of others....

[Cleita]

15. Best answer yet. n/t

[mitchtv]

2. Just extend Medicare

as you explained everyone has risk factors. Why should the Govt have any say ? It doesn't bug seniors- everyone pays the same. Kerry had a good idea, where the Feds pick up the catastrophic cases , and lowers everyone's premiums.

[Lautremont]

3. It demands no such control.

I'm from Canada, so I live with the horror of free health care every day, and it's as great as it sounds. Like the other poster said, there's no need for fear mongering.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. This is Not An Issue Anywhere in the World

Virtually every other industrialized nation has single-payer universal health care.

Every other country pays a lot less, per person, for health care than we do.

Every other industrial nation has better healthcare outcomes than we do.

None of them have prohibitions on smoking, drinking, etc. In fact, we have probably the lowest smoking rate in the industrialized world - and we still have crappy health care outcomes - we're roughly 50th in the world both in life expectancy and infant survival.

[JDPriestly]

6. France has universal healthcare and unless things have

changed drastically, many people smoke. It would depend on the wishes of the majority of voters which is exactly what it depends on now. If the majority of voters want people to pay extremely high taxes on tobacco products, they vote for representatives who will impose high taxes on tobacco products. The Germans love their beer. There is no extra charge for a beer belly. There is no extra charge for skiers in Austria. Don't worry. The British eat a lot of sweets and get bad teeth, but their government gives them universal dental coverage anyway.

[seabeyond]

7. i have that concern too, especially after listening to anti smoking

people rip into the smoker for this specific reason. i am a moderate and just over the last three or four years considered universal health care because of our insurance out of control.... but this smoking thread has had me questioning it the last couple days.

those that say it wont matter, i dont trust it. not from the voices i am hearing on du

[MannyGoldstein]

10. Why?

Private insurers have discussed adding provisions based on behavior. Has anyone ever discussed adding a provision like that for Medicare - which is, in fact, single-payer universal healthcare for those over 65.

(Folks under 65 are just suckers - I guess we enjoy paying more for worse health care.)

[seabeyond]

12. bring in all and i can see the groups going to the govt to pass laws

in order to save. seat belt laws werent about saving lives. seat belt laws passed because of cost of care ....

[johnaries]

16. You have much more to worry about from Private "rules"

than you have to worry about the "voices on DU".

[Canadian Socialist]

8. There is an ongoing discussion in the Canada forum

you might want to check out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x18769

[Glorfindel]

9. The system works just fine in the UK, France, Canada, Japan

and just about every other "first world" country. Generally speaking, their life expectancy, infant mortality, and other major indicators of overall healthiness are better than those of the citizens of the USA. I don't recall hearing that their governments are more intrusive or controlling than ours. As for your question about fit risk-takers vs. the obese and sedentary, these factors have a way of equalizing themselves when considering the population as a whole. Frankly, our health care system could stand a great deal of improvement. Far too many people are uninsured, and many of these are too proud to accept "charity," or the contempt of their fellow citizens, and so do without needed medical attention. True, we do have the world's finest sports medicine, plastic surgery, and orthodontia, for those fortunate enough to afford them. I'm definitely in favor of universal health care, and if it destroys the health insurance industry, well...good riddance!

[Mythsaje]

11. Don't feel bad about asking the question...

That's the ONE thing I've worried about too. The fact that none of the other industrialized nations that have instituted universal healthcare have slid into the sort of health fascism to which you refer gives me SOME peace of mind, but we all know how some people wouldn't mind twisting it around to that end anyway.

Even some DUers.

That's why, as we move toward seeing something like that implemented, we have to be VERY vocal in our opposition to any such language in the proposal.

I think, personally, that anyone who isn't at least slightly concerned about the possibility of that occuring is too damn naive to post here in the first place. They trust our "leaders" far more than I do. As long as corporate sponsorship has such a hold on our political system, there will be those who are willing to sell us out for a few more bucks in the campaign kitty.

[johnaries]

13. In case you haven't noticed, smokers already pay more

for private health care insurance. In fact, private insurance is pushing more and more to exclude any group that THEY decide is a higher at-risk group. A perfect example is "previously existing conditions". I know many people with excellent private health insurance who were turned down because the insurance company claimed that their condition was "perviously existing" even though there was no evidence to support the insurance company's claim. However, the insurance company had better lawyers on retainer. It cost them nothing extra to go to court, whereas it cost the patient more money to go to court to challenge the insurance company's decision than it did to pay the medical bill.

I fully expect insurance companies to deny claims because of family history at some point in the future unless something is done to stop them.

Private health insurance companies are already out of control.

If Government-controlled agencies performed the atrocitites that private health insurance companies already get away with, the Congress people who allowed those atrocities would be voted out of office. As it is now, private insurance is too expensive for the individual, and workers are "stuck" with the group program that their employer chooses.

Your fears of being penalized for "risky" behaviour is much more realistic under private health care insurance than under government-controlled Singlepayer insurance.

[Cleita]

14. If the healthcare industry is running your healthcare, they will

be running your lifestyle, mostly because they don't want to pay. If you are doing all the sports you are speaking of they will find a reason why it's a liability to them. If the government hands out health care, it's a bit rigid but they can't really deny you coverage once you are in the system.

Do remember that we, the people, are the government and we should make our system work for all of us, not just some of us. Our neighbors to the north, the Canadians, can teach us a lot about this.

[johnaries]

17. WHO rankings.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.
Source: WHO World Health Report - See also Spreadsheet Details (731kb)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

[Warren Stupidity]

18. And that doesn't even address the costs, just the outcomes.

Not only do we get mediocre healthcare, we get the planet's most expensive healthcare. We are being taken for a ride by our corrupt corporate masters. Doesn't anybody care that they are getting swindled? And killed?

Sure it's shitty service, but at least it's expensive shitty service.

[Vinca]

19. Universal health care is universal. You walk in the door you get it.

Fat, skinny, smoker, nonsmoker, athlete, slob. You get it. No questions asked. A lady I know was visiting France and came down with a nasty case of bronchitis. She went to the hospital and received excellent medical care. As she prepared to leave, she asked for the bill. No bill, they said. Everyone is treated when they require it, end of story.