Something here I found very disturbing today

[CatWoman]

A thread is up and going, discussing whether or not people who engage in extreme sports, such as mountain climbing, should be held liable for search and rescue expenses.

On another blog on which I post, people, albeit right wingers, were saying pretty much the same thing about Katrina evacuees.

I know they are apples and oranges, but there is a certain point: all of those people were caught in dire situations, and needed to be rescued.

Isn't that what those services are for? To rescue PEOPLE? Regardless of how they came to be in those situations?

[seabeyond]

1. seems to me. seems to me these people on mountains have been paying taxes

right along with the rest of us for these said services.

and no there is not a lot of difference. i do not see the apple and orange you speak. whether we "chose" to live somewhere that is susceptible to flood, hurricane tornado or earthquake, we take a risk, just as those on the mountain, or those of us that get into a car.

[CatWoman]

3. I say apples and oranges because

you CHOOSE to climb a mountain; you don't choose to get wiped out by a hurricane.

[PDJane]

5. I agree.........

and think it's a damn silly argument.

[donheld]

39. People do choose to live in hurricane prone areas

Is that not the same? :shrug:

[CatWoman]

46. of course it's not the same

you expect a huge segment of the population to forgo living someplace just because the area is susceptible to hurricane activity? we are talking about the entire Atlantic seaboard here.

what about tornadoes? should the whole midwest pack their bags and relocate?

[katsy]

2. k & r

:thumbsup:

[whoneedstickets]

4. There is a big ethical difference between

Those who seek out risk (for thrills and recreation no less) and those who by family history, employment etc. happen to live in risky locations.

I'm not sure the public should subsidize high risk recreational activities. Perhaps climbers should be forced to take out rescue insurance. In fact, this would require climbers to demonstrate their competence to undertake difficult climbs or face inordinate financial barriers -- not a bad idea.

[TahitiNut]

19. Where does such a principle get us?? Do we want a risk-averse society?

In such matters, I tend to apply Kant's Categorical Imperative. Would I want such a principle to apply worldwide? How do we determine "high risk"?? Sounds pretty relative to me. Today it's mountain climbing. Tomorrow it's riding a bike or skate-boarding. For sure, it's something only a minority engage in ... otherwise we sure wouldn't vote to cost the majority more, would we?

I'd far rather share the cost of safety nets and rescue efforts than deify risk-aversion.

"Look, ma!! No hands!!"

[tularetom]

6. Bush's Iraq misadventure costs approximately $200,000 per minute

and assuming the search/rescue/recovery effort for these climbers runs $2 million, it's only as much as 10minutes of the Iraq debacle. In fact, if it shortens that clusterfuck by 10 minutes I'm all for it.

[CatWoman]

8. *bam*

:)

[MetaTrope]

47. $200,000 per minute

Wow, that sucked up my federal taxes even before I finished reading your message title.

[WiseButAngrySara]

48. Another comparison I have been foaming about... M$$$$M's

ad nauseum coverage of three white men versus the almost non-existent coverage of ~3,000 lives lost in this expensive, immoral and insane war.

[Booster]

7. I agree with you, but then I knew I would. There is a song by

Joan Baez called "There, but for fortune, go you or I". We all have jobs and hobbies that can get us in a situation of life or death, and we may all one day need to be rescued. People should be applauding the wonderful people who are putting their own lives in jeopardy to search for these people because if we didn't have people like that a lot of people would not survive. I think you can compare the mtn climbers with Katrina victims, but on a much smaller scale of course. The climbers went up that mountain knowing the danger it held, and most of the Katrina victims chose to stay and go thru the hurricane - true, some couldn't leave, but most thought they could ride it out like all the other hurricanes they've been thru. If any of you are ever in a situation, whether of your own choosing or not, I hope some of these wonderful people come and help you out - and I do not believe you should have to pay for their services, that's what humanity does - help eath other.

[johnaries]

9. IMHO, people who are in need of help.... need help.

I don't care what the situation is - you can ALWAYS make the argument that "they brought it on themselves" if you're too selfish to want to help.

[jcrew2001]

10. parks

There are park rangers trained in rescue operations, just like ski patrol. I suppose as long as there are state parks available to the general public, search and rescue should be free to all the public.

I'm not sure how much manpower is devoted to each rescue operation, but the more dangerous the sport, the less likely there is quick rescue operation available, so the prospect of death is more likely in these extreme sports, which is part of the thrill anyway.

[CatWoman]

11. welcome to DU, jcrew2001

:hi:

I remember when JFK Jr's plane went down, and the Coast Guard dispatched search and rescue operations, the right wing howled like hyenas.

[Az]

12. Assumptions

There was a story several years ago about an elderly woman who spilled some McDonalds coffee in her lap and scalded herself. She sued McD's for a huge pile of money.

On the surface this story seems a bit ridiculous. She spilled the coffe on herself. McD's didn't spill it on her. She did it to herself. Seems pretty straight forward right? So why the huge settlement in her favor?

The problem here is assumptions. Assumptions that you know the full story. In this case the McD's in question had been turning the heat up on the coffee machine way too high for a long time now. They had been sited numerous times for serving the coffee too hot for consumption. When the woman spilled the coffee on herself she recieved severe burns from it because .... it was too hot. This was in fact McD's fault. But because people only hear the first part of the story they make assuptions.

The mountain climbers are victims of the same effect. You have a basic story that is being cast as a bunch of extreme sports jockies risking their life needlessly in dangerous conditions. This is not the case. Anyone that has any experience mountain climbing (I have limited experience) knows that conditions can change suddenly. If you have ever seen weather shift near a mountain it can be quite amazing. So they may have taken every precation in the world and still be caught in their situation.

Mountain climbing happens. It is exilerating. I have been brought to tears witnessing nature from the top of a mountain. Mt Hood derrives much of its income (including tax base) from tourism and that includes mountain climbing. There are teams of people that train day and night to be part of a mountain rescue team. Its because occaisionally people need rescuing.

[bullwinkle428]

17. The RW LOVES to bring up the McD hot coffee case as the perfect

example of the "frivolous lawsuit"; in fact, the wingnut candidate for the IA-01 district referred to that case in one of his campaign commercials in an attempt to smear the Democratic candidate, Bruce Braley, who happened to be trial lawyer. Braley ended up kicking the Repuke's ass by nearly a 20% margin! And this is a district formerly represented by Jim Nussle, a wingnut who didn't run for another term as he tried to win the governorship...he got pounded as well.

[mcctatas]

13. While I understand the sentiment...

I think it is morally reprehensible to suggest that people should pay the costs of rescue. I suppose there would be a way to capitalize on it (Prudential brings you Xtreme sports insurance), and privatize the rescue efforts, (KBR, the best in mountaineering disaster recovery)...but it isn't all about $ is it? :shrug:

[thingfisher]

56. but it isn't all about $ is it?

in America it seems everything is about $ period.

[originalpckelly]

14. Poor people do not usually have a choice as to where they live...

rich (or middle class) people usually do have a choice as to whether they climb mountains in the winter or not.

I feel so sorry for the poor families, but the men did something awful to their families by being so selfish.

[spacelady]

15. I have conluded that there is plenty of time to sort out financial ramifications

after a rescue or recovery.

[Rowdyboy]

16. You wonder if some assholes would require proof of insurance before

using the jaws of life on car-wreck victims. As our nation bleeds BILLIONS to Halliburton, I don't mind spending a pittance to try to rescue a few of my brothers who were unexpectedly hit by an extremely powerful storm. I'd a helluva lot rather have my taxes pay for their recovery than go for windfall profits for oil companies!

[KarenS]

18. My younger brother used to do 'extreme' sports in

California and my parents would purchase insurance to cover the cost of a "rescue" in case one was necessary ~ thankgoodness it never was.

This has nothing to do with a natural disaster and is not the same thing at all.

[Zookeeper]

20. Unfortunately, most of our tax dollars go to support...

big business and the military industrial complex. So, we are left having to prioritize the pittance we have left that could actually help people.

Are people who climb mountains for fun and need SAR services more deserving than inner city school children? Or the homeless? It's nasty to have to make a choice like that, but that is the reality right now.

I'm not in favor of abandoning the missing mountaineers, but we do need to think about this issue. Given the fact that so many Americans are in need of housing, education and health care, it's not unreasonable to consider insurance to cover extreme sport activities.

BTW, Mountaineers pay taxes, but, they are paying for the same thing as you and I, police and fire protection for example. They are not paying for massive helicopter rescues and giving up police protection.

[jobycom]

21. Very complex issue, and the comparison to Katrina shouldn't even be made.

As has been said, there's an immense difference between a person needing rescue from their home, and a person needing rescue from some risky place they have sought out, sometimes ignoring warnings to do so.

I think there are a lot of points to consider. Did the community invite tourism, were there warnings not to do what was being done, did the person endanger themselves against all warnings not to, does the tax community encourage tourism--thus making much of its tax base from the very tourism that causes the rescue expense, does the tax community try to forbid the exact action that a person needs rescuing from?

I mean, I'd hate to spend tens of thousands of tax dollars that could go towards paying the heating costs of those on fixed incomes or funding a homeless shelter to rescue some jackass Republican yuppie from an action he was told not to attempt in the first place. On the other hand, I'd hate to see a community that invites extreme tourism and benefits heavily from the taxes and commerce thus produced try to shirk their responsibility to make the tourists as safe as possible. They've made their tax dollars from these tourists, they should pay to get them out of situations they were invited into in the first place.

Of course it's not that easy to determine in a lot of cases. But sometimes it is.

There, I've solved that problem. We can all go to bed now. :rofl:

[mykpart]

22. Are we certain that

these people aren't billed later for rescue services? I wouldn't be surprised. You get billed for ambulance and paramedics when you call 911.

[izzybeans]

23. I'd much rather use the logistical power of our government for rescue missions of this type

than for any war. It does not matter who is in need. A friend in need is...you guessed it. The same goes for any citizen.

Talk about government waste...rescuing citizens should be the cost of doing business, so should educating them, protecting them from exploitation, providing them a safe space to persue their interests (commercial, personal, cultural), enabling them to move beyond their current station. War is big government gone deranged, it is the type of waste and graft all the wingnuts have been warning us about. They just never learned the simple "a friend in need is a friend indeed", instead they would rather see people wither and play G.I. vicariously through someone else's children.

I agree with you.

[thingfisher]

57. All the efforts expended by our military

suck money out of the economy that should be allocated for the domestic tranquility. We have been fighting phantoms for more than 50 years all to the degradation of our domestic population that doesn't have quality education, health care, housing, job security, etc.

[JeffR]

24. Get thee to the Greatest Page

You're right. These comments and the sentiments behind them have been appalling.

[Cleita]

25. It seems that those people feel that basically we are on our

own. There is no community of helping each other anymore.

SAD. :cry:

[question everything]

26. Yes and, in the case of Mt. Hood, the rescuers get important

practice and experience on how to handle future situations.

And something similar to the family that got lost in Oregon after Thanksgiving. Apparently there may have been some vital communication that never reached the law enforcement. Whatever happened, one can be sure that next time, if there is a next time, all communications will be carefully studied.

[cynatnite]

27. I pay taxes for these kinds of things and do so gladly n/t

[Canuckistanian]

28. I agree, but....

People who have no choice where they are and people who have clear choices about where they go are two different things.

As you can probably tell, I have no automatic respect for thrill-seekers. And this is clearly what they were.

[cynatnite]

29. I didn't see anyone make these arguments over the stranded family...

a few weeks ago. They were stupid by going off route and not taking better precautions. They put themselves and their children in that horrible situation.

I don't believe we should penalize people or their loved ones for someone's stupidity. Even the smartest and most well-prepared can sometimes be caught unaware no matter the situation. Shit happens and we pay taxes to help those who need it no matter how they got there. It's the human thing to do.

[kittykitty]

35. It wasn't totally their fault. Someone cut the lock on a gate to the "wrong road" and

the gate was open. It didn't look like a road that shouldn't be used, and they took it by mistake.

[sandnsea]

37. They passed 3 warning signs

Snow drifts in winter, road may be blocked. You don't take forest service roads in winter, the spur road isn't even relevant. You especially don't take them at 9:00 at night, and moreso when there's 2 small children in the car.

How many things have to be someone's fault before they're labeled stupid and responsible for paying for their own rescue?

[qnr]

30. Speaking as a former junior & senior lifeguard, and retired US Coast Guard, my

opinion is, if they need to be rescued, rescue them. I've heard arguments from many directions on the subject. However, they are fellow human beings, and there should be no hesitation about doing whatever is necessary.

I say this knowing fully that huge segments of the population are in dire straits every day due to famine, natural disasters, ethnic cleansing, unemployment, mental illness and a multitude of other problems, and that we should be doing everything we can to help them, yet we aren't. I still feel that there should be no restrictions on actual rescues (heavy penalties on fake distress calls, and things of that nature though).

Now, what does piss me off is the amount of media coverage such situations get.

[Bluerthanblue]

32. well said- thank you for your perspective and compassion. eom

[Neshanic]

40. Well said. Completely agree.

Here in AZ now if you drive around a barricade for a flooded wash you get rescued, but you are presented with a bill later.

Other than that, rescue, and no charge for pulling people off mountains, which does happen frequently here on the urban mountains.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. for many people daily living is = to an 'extreme sport'- and if

we can't see fit to extend our humanity to people regardless of whether they are living lives that we couldn't imagine ourselves living- (by choice or chance) then screw us.

How much money is spent on the airlines? Bail-outs, security, etc.- I don't fly on commercial airlines, and believe that they are often a very frivilous waste of money and energy- yet I'd never begrudge anyone help should a plane be in distress or crash-

Ambulances are charging people to respond to emergencies... everyone is so fricking stingy- money is the god of this country- I'm far from wealthy- i'm not even breaking even- but how can anyone value money over people's lives?

We seem to have lost our way.... or maybe this f---d up administration has revealed this American society for the sham we are showing ourselves to be-

"Compassionate"???? not when you listen to the harsh, greedy words that are coming from the mouths of people who claim otherwise.

dark times in history these.

[dweller]

33. may i jack this thread for a moment?

and i'll try to keep it short, but i probably can't, so i apologize i have to get this off my chest.

last nite i got off work fairly early for a change, which is good for i had to be back early today for a circumstance, and was happy to get home to get a good nite's rest. I planned to have a glass of cheer, head to bed, get up and take care of the business.
I had no more than walked in, sat down, and hit the button on the answering machine and listening to my mom's message about momstuff, when BAM! and the power went off. Now normally that sound is preceded by a long screeching of tires on pavement, then BAM! and then the power outage. So i sat there for about 10 seconds and realized the missing element, and thought... oh shit.
Jumped in my car (i live down a long drive off a blind curve) and already had my best flashlight in my hand, and drove up to the road, pointed my car in the direction i knew would be in question and ran up to the small car that had plowed into the power pole and was sitting there. Inside was a young man lying back in the driver's seat with some blood around his head. He was groaning.
I told him to lie still, the ambulance was on the way. (i lied) i repeated it a couple of times, and then ran back and drove back to my dark home and called 911. A few minutes later, i took off again back to the scene to find a couple that had happened along and were just looking at the car from the middle of the road.
Me and my trusty flashlight ran back and told them he was in there, and he was hurt. We approached the car. The windshield was blown out, the front end totalled, the power pole cracked in half, the inside of the car was a mishmash (backseat in the floor, the steering wheel bent hard to the right, and the guy still lying in the front seat, blood over the right of his face. He was slowly rocking back and forth.
Together we told him to stay still, the rescue squad was on the way. He asked 'what for?' and we told him to lie still over and over but he started struggling to get up and out of his car. When we realized he was coming out regardless of what we said, we helped him, all 3 together and tried to prop him against the car which was listing toward the passenger side and keep him still there, but he was adamant about standing up, and all of the sudden, started walking away, down the road in the dark.
The couple followed him, all of us telling him to stop, wait, the rescue was on the way, i stood there and shined the light on them as they walked away. At that point i noticed the blood on my hands from helping him up and out of the car.
My light was on the couple following this guy, and i could see them and not him so well, when they stopped, and the guy in the couple threw up his hands and said 'he just bolted into the woods'.
I started walking up the road to them and by the time i got to about where they said he took off, the ambulance, fire truck, rescue squad, and hiway patrol started showing up.
I was shining my light into the woods where he had went, and the ambulance/rescue squad? pulled up beside me and i told them he was hurt, and had went into the woods about here...

their response: 'he took off? ... well, fuck him' ...

and to the man, that was the response i got from the rest of the rescue units that showed up over the next hour. They towed his car, cleared the scene, fixed the power outage in record time, and left.
Not one person went in search of the person bleeding, dazed and wandering off into the woods trying to escape the supposed help that had come to assist him. There was lots of speculation: was he drunk? was the car stolen? (hell they had the car!) he musta been on something, his race was brought up...but no matter what i said about being there first, and seeing him and his condition, it was pretty much 'he took off, fuck him'.

it was all over by 2am, the power had been restored, and i lay awake all nite worrying that there was a suffering and possibly dead person lying in the woods that nobody gave a shit about but me. I am i now realize an old man for i could not find it in myself to plunge into the woods in the dark searching for a stranger that doesn't want my help, though in need of it, and i am tired of being around people that carry their prejudices and preconceptions and petty concepts of self-importance while pretending to do their jobs.

i am sadly content that i am alone after all, so i have no one to be disappointed in but myself. And i am sorry that i feel this way.

i hope i haven't killed your thread CatWoman. i just had to get this off my chest.

dp

[enigmatic]

34. Best post in this thread

Thank you for this.

[tkmorris]

38. I don't disbelieve you but........

What that guy did is a classic reaction to being in shock. People who sustain serious injuries, especially to the head, often act in such a bizarre fashion.

Is it possible the EM team did not know that? I don't see how. It's a big part of the curriculum. Police know this too. All emergency response personnel should expect such things, it should be ingrained.

They really didn't care? Just dismissed the guy? That's incredible.

[HeeBGBz]

44. In a year they'll probably find some bones

And spend big bucks on forensics to figure out who died in the woods.

[bloom]

49. The dilemma

You can't force people to allow others to help them (generally).

Like someone mentioned - he probably was in shock.

On the other hand - he may well have had reasons such as no drivers license or something that he didn't want brought up.


When people are known to have gotten lost in the woods - (like the Mt. Hood case) the presumption is that they want to be saved. But they didn't enter the woods in an apparent effort to get lost. :shrug:

[CatWoman]

54. Dweller

:hug:

anytime, Doll.

[OneBlueSky]

36. since when do we punish people for making stupid decisions? . . .

apparently their adventure was entirely within the law . . . the fact that their decision to climb without a GPS locater was stupid doesn't negate the fact that they are citizens in trouble -- and that's what our emergency services are for . . . talk about charging them for the search and rescue operations is amoral and idiotic . . .

[koopie57]

41. that thread bothered me too

I thought about it and finally decided for myself that this is an imperfect world and we are all in it together. We are all hopelessly human and will make poor choices, bad decision, get drunk, take risks, live somewhere (where in the US can one live and be sure of no natural disaster?). But we will also be there if someone needs us, to do something extraordinary to save a life or whatever else is needed. We really are a good people and instead of feeling anger towards a person who made the error of being human, we should count our blessings that it isn't our turn today to make the mistake. Specifically toward these mountain climbers, they didn't go up there expecting trouble, they made choices so they would be safe, seemed to know what they were doing if they got in trouble so search and rescue could find them.

It just seems as though we are at each other's throat in order to feel better about ourselves.

A strong person will build others up to feel good; a weak person needs to bring others down to feel good.

This is my humble opinion only, but it is the first one that I felt I could live with without feeling sick in my stomach.

[madokie]

42. That's one of the reasons for paying taxes that I gladly pay

Never have I complained about the taxes I pay and never I will.

[NashVegas]

43. Control Freakusitus

There is so much right now that's so fucked up and the feeling for so many is there is so little we can do about it.

Message boards are a great place for venting frustration and finding scapegoats.

[BlackVelvet04]

45. The money argument became

prominent when the seat belt push and non-smoking push came about. Americans, being the greedy creatures that they are, fell for it hook, line and sinker.

You can be sure that even if all mountain climbers quit climbing we wouldn't get a tax decrease.

How many people's car insurance went down when the seat belt laws went into effect?

[ninkasi]

50. CatWoman, I just finished posting on Xultar's thread

regarding the climbers. You, and she, are both right. We spend huge, unbelievable amounts of tax money in protecting corporate interests overseas, and are asked for the lives of our sons and daughters to die in wars for those same business interests. In return, we give them tax breaks, and their big shots obscene sums of money, and slash those taxes, too.

Why should ordinary people, whether lost on a mountain, or flooded by Katrina, be expected to somehow fend for themselves? I read once about the bones of a Neanderthal found in a cave. Judging by the skeleton, the person had been born with a deformity, which meant that the other members of the group must have taken care of her, because she lived into adulthood.

Conditions for life were so harsh back then, that I can just see some people here arguing for exposing the baby born with the deformity to the elements, rather than burdening the whole group with contributing to her ( I think it was a woman) care. We consider Neanderthals to be primitive cave men, but apparently those cave men were more compassionate than some here, because they cared for this individual, when she could contribute almost nothing to their society. Are we less evolved, and less compassionate, than them?

I guess another way to phrase the question is by putting it the same way Cain answered to God, when asked about Abel..."Am I my brother's keeper?" To some of us, the answer is yes.

[CatWoman]

59. !

:hug:

[leftofthedial]

51. is there any point at which society is not responsible

for elective risky behavior by an individual?

[BoneDaddy]

52. I came to the same conclusion

thanks for putting it out there.

I call the type of folks you mentioned above the "perfect police". They don't drink, smoke anything, have any vices, are perfect lil liberals, practice PC ad nauseum, and want to institute the same kind of controlling mentality as the republican fundamentalist Christians. They just call their ideology something different but it all comes down to control.

They think by wrapping the world in cotton they will prevent disaster. Well, as an ex-adrenaline junkie who has done white water rafting down class 4 rivers, done 10,000 foot free falls, bungee jumped from hot air balloons, played rugby, martial arts, rock climbed etc, I have to say they were some of the points when I felt the MOST ALIVE.

Risk is inherent in life and all the planning, protecting, wrapping in cotton we can do will not stave off the inevitable.

That said there has to be a balance. Extreme risk taking and extreme protectionism are both dangerous. Conscious, reasonable risks are part of life.

Great points.

[ComerPerro]

53. willfully putting themselves in danger, vs. being caught in a large storm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. The republicans who complain about Katrina victims...

are racists. It's just that simple. They're just making shit up, for no other reason then they think black people are stupid and they want them to die.

Now, the same basic thing goes for the climber arguments. I don't think it's motivated by racism, since the climbers are white and I suspect the whiners are white. But they're still being motivated by stupidity, hatred, and ignorance, which what racism boils down to.

[WinkyDink]

58. "Missing Climbers Were 'American Idol' Contestants. DU Heads Explode."

*sarcasm*