In 1997 I was air evacuated from the Clearwater NF, Idaho

[Squatch]

This gets kinda gross toward the middle, so stop reading here and skip to the paragraphs below the line if you get squeamish.

I was paddling on section III of the Lochsa when I got myself into a pretty nasty situation. At Lochsa Falls (not really a falls, but more like a really big drop), I decided to run river left, which put me on top of some must-make moves. Well, I nearly made all of the moves except one, when I dropped into a rather large hole, side surfed for a while, then was window-shaded (an event that occurs when a surfer catches their upstream edge and is power-flipped upstream one or more times) at least 3 times.

There was a rock about 8 inches or so under the surface. The first time, I was just about fully tucked when I flipped upstream and hit my helmet, causing it to ride back on my head. The second time, my forehead exposed, I hit the rock again, nearly knocking me unconscious. The third time, bewildered and bedazzled, I smacked my elbow on the rock, breaking my arm at the point where the triceps attach, completely cleaving off that part of the bone (the weird thing is, that didn't hurt at all...must have hit the funny bone).

Before I could get recirculated a third time, I punched out of my boat and swam (as best I could with one arm and confused from the head injury). Made it to shore, pulled myself out of the water, took about 1/2 dozen steps, and passed out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next thing I know, I'm strapped onto a stretcher and am flying to Lewiston, ID.

Now, at the time of the incident, I had been kayaking for 10 years. I have paddled all over Europe and the Western US and routinely paddled class IV, IV+, V-, and sometimes V whitewater. Section III of the Lochsa is a solid class IV run and happens to still be my favorite. I felt very comfortable on the river, had developed my skills adequately for that section of WW, and was prepared for typical emergencies (PFD, helmet, throw rope, 1st aid kit, breakdown paddle, food, dry suit, etc).

Here's the question: should I have paid, out of my own pocket, for the air evacuation? Although I was unconscious at the time, my friends told me that police, medical, and the air units were involved in my evacuation. I'm sure a lot of money was expended by a number of agencies for that evacuation.

[Squatch]

1. Here's a decent pic of where it happened

See the copyright sign in the upper right corner? That ledge almost immediately below that symbol and a little to the left is where it happened. Not over the big ledge, but between the big ledge and the top ledge.

Did that make sense?

[TahitiNut]

33. Left would be a Class V route, imho.

"Navigable" is always a qualifier in assigning a class, imho. While I have nowhere near the experience, I adore whitewater rafting. (My back doesn't permit me to kayak.)

I'm ambivalent (conflicted) on the issues of cost-recovery. The social dynamics are very disturbing to me. On the one hand, we have MANDATORY automobile insurance almost everywhere in the U.S. but many of us who engage in 'extreme' (and even not-so-extreme) sports aren't required to take out accident insurance. When I was actively scuba-diving, I paid for DAN diver's insurance even though I was VERY diligent in diving well within my limits.

At the same time, I'm strongly in favor of nationalized health care and shared risk. To me, the 'cost' of a liberal democratic society MUST be a willingness to share the burden of risk for the liberties of others. I don't think the word "liberty" has a meaning worth a hill of beans if it doesn't include "on-the-edge" activities.

What I find most disturbing of all in the many discussion on DU of military service and the draft, drinking, smoking, extreme sports, and a wide variety of other topics is the steadfast "me-firstism" of those who repeatedly abdicate "social solidarity" based on disagreement ("not MY choice") or expense (relatively trivial per capita impact).

In my opinion, such a prevalence of attitudes is a harbinger of a horribly divisive dialectic under any 'socialized' health care or other program. In short, it scares the shit out of me what we might do if we actually enacted 'socialized' anything.

Currently, I'm still in support of ALL of our liberties to engage in such sports ... fully aware of the fact that the economic contributions of folks who engage in such activities dwarf the expenses of the rescue activities. It's not like people don't bear ENOUGH of a penalty in pain and suffering for the mistakes they make and accidents that befall them. I think the specter of "piling on" and arguing that victims bear even more of a burden is distastefully unattractive.

[MrCoffee]

34. does diving insurance pay for recovery efforts in case of accident?

i'm utterly ignorant regarding insurance like this. would the SAR teams bill the insurance company? does it only cover your costs if you have to be hospitalized/rehab/etc?

[TahitiNut]

35. Well, 'recovery' isn't as big a deal as hyperbaric chambers and transport.

Each 'extreme' sport has it's own particular potentiality of expenses (risk profile). In scuba-diving, the 'edge' is decompression. It's a sport that's somewhat unforgiving - there's not much room between a 'good dive' and death by drowning. It's very rarely a matter of 'search' (in S&R) ... and that's almost always a function of the liability insurance for dive operators. So, DAN insurance covered hyperbaric chambers and a low-altitude(!) flight to the nearest facility.

[Warpy]

2. A country that can't afford to help people in trouble

is not a country I want to claim.

All those outfits are associated with volunteer groups who do search and rescue in wilderness areas. Perhaps a call to them will tell you where a donation might do the most good. That's the way to pay it back.

Shit happens. You could just as easily have sustained injuries like that in a garden variety car wreck. Nobody asks accident victims to pay for the "jaws of life" to cut them out of a crushed car.

[bmbmd]

3. Yeah-you generally get billed

for ambulance service. I know a guy who just got tabbed $13,000 for extraction and transport to a trauma center.

[OzarkDem]

12. Budget cuts - the root of the problem

Because so much of our budget is going to Iraq and GOP tax cuts for the wealthy, the budget pressure is growing every day, particularly on state and local governments. They're being forced to pick up more and more of the tab for essential community services, education, health care and infrastructure costs. Its an impossible burden.

Though its not on the evening news as much, health care is heading the same direction. Federal budget cuts, rising health care costs and rapidly evaporating health insurance coverage is pushing more of the burden back to states and the health care system.

[MADem]

18. That is a big bill...from where was he extracted? NT

[bmbmd]

21. US 75 North of Mckinney, Tx

jaws of life, advanced life support, endotracheal intubation, pressors, etc-he's back to work as a fishing guide now. Car insurance paid the bill.

[MADem]

23. Praise car insurance!!!! NT

[treestar]

14. What's "in trouble?"

We have millions of people "in trouble" that we don't help. What about long term trouble people did nothing to bring upon themselves?

You shouldn't want to claim this country, then, it does not try to help people living in ghettos, and takes no responsibility for people with illnesses, if they don't have insurance, too bad.

Less dramatic and more mundane, but true nevertheless.

[MADem]

4. If these costs get to be too big a chunk, and authorities start asking for payment, I'd not be

surprised if insurance companies start offering "recreation insurance" like they do car insurance.

[warrior1]

11. I'm glad your ok

But, who should pay for this? I think having recreation insurance is a great idea. It would end all of this fighting that's been going on of late on DU.

No one is completely right or wrong on this subject. Thing is with the latest rescue attempt, they've all ready loss a helicopter and people helping could have been seriously injury. Someone is paying for this. Should Oregon fit the bill for all of this?

[MADem]

17. I don't really have a set opinion on it, I just see it as something that is likely to happen in

future. After all, once upon a time, there was no travel insurance on airplanes....you were on your own if you dared to go up in the sky!

And insurance companies are in the business of making money--if they can get a hundred bucks or so off everyone who goes rafting or boating or mountain climbing or what-have-you, they'll make money, even if they have to pay for the odd rescue.

I'm thinking you intended to reply to the OP, not me....

[treestar]

5. No, you were easy to find.

Your location does not sound that like it took weeks or days to find you.

The mountaineering gets them far away and is dangerous, kayaking isn't going that far; IOW, you're not asking society to bail you out at extreme cost if you get hurt going kayaking. It would cost society no more or not much more than it would to rescue you from an auto accident, say. You're not going kayaking for the sole reason of risking your life because that's a thrill. Also, you have to be on the water, so even if you were way out of civilization, finding you would take so long as it would only involve looking along the stream of water.

A lot of these threads have posters giving us an all or nothing choice or attributing one as straw man saying nobody should ever be rescued.

[xultar]

6. I say no. I'll always say no.

[OzarkDem]

7. You're a taxpayer

you already paid. We all do, that's what taxes are for, to support services like these.

[Ron Green]

8. Whatever media companies that ran your story 24/7 and made a bundle

on their advertising should have paid for your evacuation.

[mike_c]

9. no-- that is what I pay taxes for....

And I'm happy to foot the bill for that sort of rescue service. I'm glad the rescue could be made, and that you're here to talk about it today!

[Gormy Cuss]

10. I'm not voting for either option.

It's a ridiculous question. I'm glad you came through it okay and I'm glad that volunteers AND TAXPAYERS SUPPORTED SERVICES were available to help out. Even if the reason you were injured had been because you thought you could ride that WW in a cheap inflatable while not wearing a helmet, I'd say the same about rescue ops. In the latter case I'd reserve the right to call you an irresponsible dummy, had you lived.

[ourbluenation]

13. no - good citizens...taxes should pay for emergency situations....

if you want to start deciding what constitutes legit emergency situations, you go down a slippery slope. Hell - I choose to drive to my brother in CO for xmas - if I get in an accident should I pay for the emergency services? I mean I did "choose" to take a recreational trip.

don't go there people.

[sandnsea]

15. Life flight to the hospital?

I don't have a problem with paying for the medical flight to the hospital, everybody has to pay for that. S&R, evac, any of that sort of thing though, no.

Sorry that happened. That is such a beautiful area, one of my all time favorites. Rafting some ripples was always enough for me, but people can get hurt anywhere.

[TygrBright]

16. No, certainly not, that's why we HAVE emergency services...

...adjacent to national parks, etc., with recreation areas that pose some risk.

On the other hand, I hope that at some point when you were recovered, you thanked those involved with fervor and sincerity, and made a donation that reflected both your financial situation and the degree of your gratitude to some voluntary contribution fund connected with one or more of the services that rescued you.

If we want to stop paying for rescues in parks, recreation areas, etc., the answer is simple. Fence them. Make them off limits to people who want to engage in recreational activities in them. Then the taxpayers won't have to pay the bills when some one of our fellow-citizens encounters the downside of risk during their pursuit of recreation.

Of course, this will cause a shortage of recreational areas, but I'm sure that the private sector will step up to the plate and open some private recreation areas lavishly provided with fee-for-service emergency services. They'd be pretty expensive, probably, and only the well-off could afford such recreation, but at least the taxpayers wouldn't be footing the bill for a few rescues in our parks and recreation areas giving "freebies" to fellow citizens in trouble.

Doesn't that sound just like what the Founders had in mind when they blathered on about the common good, etc.? Doesn't that sound like just the kind of country you want to live in?

bitingly,
Bright

[kestrel91316]

19. Bad Bright! You said a BAD THING ("common good")!!!

You're obviously some sort of commie.

[IDemo]

20. At least around here, $50/year will buy you a helicopter flight out

Or $1000 for a lifetime membership, less than the cost of a single trip otherwise. Not a bad insurance policy for those who regularly enjoy the pleasures of the great outdoors along with the risks. Obviously this doesn't mean to pay for other search and rescue efforts involved, but it's a start.

http://www.saintalphonsus.org/bodysarmc3.cfm?id=32

[sidwill]

22. Yes...if able to afford it, no if not, and....

only partially if you could only afford partial reimbursement.

If you had the financial resources to pay all or some of your bill you should have been compelled to. If not then the state should pick it up.

Fact is you chose to participate in a potentially dangerous sport so why should society automatically pick up the tab for it?

[Der Blaue Engel]

24. No

I admit I'm not sure who pays for these services...medevac, and the like. Are they paid by taxpayers? The reason I ask (while I remain firmly on the side of being apalled at the "pay for your own rescue if you're 'stupid'" crowd) is because of my surprise, years ago, at being charged for an ambulance. Until then, I'd had no idea they were a private service. I still don't understand why they are. How can a society not fund emergency assistance?

This whole discussion reminds me of stories I've heard about early fire departments and how they used to charge people to put out fires, and if a person couldn't pay, they'd let the place burn to the ground.

I find the concept baffling, that we think rescuing people in distress should be based on ability to pay.

[Squatch]

25. After 1 day, 35% of respondents think I should have paid for the evac

Most of the yes comments were explained with somthing along the lines of: "If you choose to engage in a potentially dangerous sport, then you should pay for emergency services"

My question, where does one draw the line at "potentially dangerous" and what's to prevent that line from being redrawn until a person is expected to pay for emergency services in all liesure pursuits? A case can be made that football is quite a bit more dangerous than skydiving in terms of injury rates, but could you imagine the outrage if that line was drawn between the two (emergency services not paid for football injuries but are paid for skydiving injuries).

Thankfully, I did not have to pay for the emergency services rendered other than what I already paid in yearly taxes. I gladly continue to pay those taxes so that the same emergency services are available to anybody who needs them, regardless of the cause. I guess I'm just weird that way.

Anyways, thanks for taking part in this poll.

[Brewman_Jax]

26. Here's a question for you...

I thought about starting a post, but this needs work.

I'm well that taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.
Everyone that needs to be rescued absolutely should be rescued, whether disaster victim or leisure time adventurer.

The above people pay taxes, too, but will likely never go mountain climbing or white water kayaking or any of the extras. They have more mundane concerns, like hoping to stay healthy if they aren't covered, or will there be enough to cover the bills this month?

My parents have had to call 911 more than once over the past 3 years to be taken to the hospital. They get a bill for the ambulance service; they have to pay what insurance doesn't cover. A ride to the hospital is hardly extraordinary.

I've been in the outdoors and on the sea, and there's no question that shit can happen. Why is it so unreasonable that for the extraordinary resources spent to rescue some adventurers, that they can't help defray the cost?

[Hamlette]

27. depends, as always, by who rescued you: gov't or private

my son was rescued as a teenager and the volunteer organization who got him billed us for $1,000. We were able to pay it and did. They said the money is used to buy the equipment needed for rescues and added that very few people pay the bill. They don't sue if you don't pay. My son's rescue was simple compared to yours (broke his leg biking in back country but not too far from the road). Our share of equipment was less than $1,000 but because we can pay, I don't care. I was so greatful for the help especially since he was with friends, not us, and far from home. (The best part of the story is they had stayed at the cheapest motel in town, not even a phone in the room. His friend drove him home that night. As they were leaving the motel they stole two pillows to prop his leg up. The owner saw them leaving and ran out "don't take those pillows! Wait here!" They surrendered the pillows and waited, not knowing what she was going to do thinking maybe she was calling the cops. The owner went inside and brought out two other pillows saying: "Those pillow cases match the sheets, these don't. Take these." We always rely on the kindness of strangers.)

If the government rescued you, you did pay, through tax dollars. There is still a part of me that says if you are able to pay, you should for the same reasons I say people who are filthy rich should pay their own medical expenses, not use medicare. But since our system is not structured that way, unless you are a multi-millionaire, you have no moral obligation to pay.

[Dora]

28. I was airlifted to a hospital as a child.

When I was 13 years old, I joined a friend's family on a four-wheeler's club tour through the high desert outside of Globe, Arizona. Our group's vehicle was one of fifteen vehicles in all, and we had been having many problems on the trip. We started out late on Friday, quickly realized we were lost in the mountains as it became dark, our driver could not find the rest of the club, a front wheel became stuck in a fissure in the road, and after we dug ourselves out, we camped in the vehicle overnight.

The next day we were able to find the rest of the group, and the fun began. Nothing exciting, just slow meandering up and down the hills and curves of the low pine forest. Yvonne and I slept in the back of the car with the ice chests and tool boxes. Next thing I knew, we were rolling. Three times our vehicle flipped, and what saved us all from plunging to certain death in the rocky gorge below was one very sturdy hillside shrub that we were lucky enough to land on, right-side up.

Yvonne's mother and I were airlifted out of there. She was bleeding profusely from the scalp (her window was rolled up and shattered when our roll began), and my back hurt. It took two hours for EMS to get there.

The hospital sent me home with my parents with one stitch in the back of my hand. I was safely tucked in my bed before dark. Yvonne's mother had considerably more stitches, and she went home the next day. Yvonne and her father were bruised and shaken, but otherwise unscathed.

What caused our roll off the road: A combination of a soft shoulder, fatigue, and probably too much beer. Yvonne's dad always had one cracked open on these trips. I couldn't tell you how many he had, only that there was always one open and in the cupholder. It was normal to me, hell, my dad sometimes had a beer in the car with him. This was 1983, pre-dating many open-container laws.

We had two organizations running air evac operations in AZ at that time. One was county-run, and free. The other was a private operation that billed the user.

I flew for free.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

29. I'd much rather my taxes pay for your rescue than many of the things they're used for

I'm glad you're OK.

[spoony]

31. Definitely. This is what we SHOULD spend money on

In a country with so much budget, I can't begin to understand why anyone would draw the line at doing one of the only things government should be doing: helping people out of jams!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

32. I think the feelings some have about the rescued paying the bills

Stem from the false concept of privatization and personal responsibility that have been pounded into Americans by the Republicans. In my eyes it's all a smoke screen for where our tax dollars have actually been going.

[Karenina]

36. Bingo!

The attitudes I've seen expressed on this board in the last days have been staggering. The American "mentality" has become corrupted and twisted into something grotesque and unrecognizable.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

37. Yes, and this shows how deeply ingrained this has become

Many Americans, such as myself, grew to our adulthood under these false beliefs. That coupled with the fact that a large chunk of us were never taught critical thinking skills has led to this backward mentality taking root and spreading.

[One_Life_To_Give]

30. $1,500 if the skid hits the ground

That was ten years ago. But if I called in an Air Ambulance in Central Connecticut. If a skid hit the ground the charges started. $1500 was the minimum at that time.

Now that service was privatly owned. Somebody has to pay for keeping pilots onduty 24/7, maintenance on the helicopter, etc.