The Top Ten Hybrid Myths

[skids]

Good to see some of the media isn't owned by GM.

If you are having a tough time separating hybrid truth from reality, you're not alone. The warp-speed adoption of hybrids into popular culture -- and into hundreds of thousands of American driveways -- has produced more than a little confusion and misinformation. Most industry analysts predict the continued growth of gas-electric vehicles, with estimates ranging from 600,000 to 1,000,000 hybrid sales in the U.S. by 2010, so this is a good time to debunk the 10 most prevalent myths about hybrid cars.

1. You need to plug in a hybrid car.
...
2. Hybrid batteries need to be replaced.
...
3. Hybrids are a new phenomenon.
...
4. People buy hybrids only to save money on gas.
...
5. Hybrids are expensive.
...
6. Hybrids are small and underpowered.
...
7. Only liberals buy hybrids.
...
8. Hybrids pose a threat to first responders.
...
9. Hybrids will solve all our transportation, energy, and environmental problems.
...
10. Hybrid technology is only a fad.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2006/bw20060131_870391.htm

[MemphisTiger]

1. number 5 isn't true, they are more expensive relative

to their all gasoline models. The honda civic hybrid is more expensive than the gas civic.

[Beaverhausen]

18. None of them are true

I love my Prius- just sayin'.

[MemphisTiger]

22. The car companies even said the hybrid version of their cars

cost approx. $3000 more than similar gas only models.

Check Hondas web site that states the starting prices for the civic

$14,560 gas only
$21,850 hybrid.

Number 5 is bogus

[skids]

23. The CIvic hybrid is an EX without the sunroof.

$ 18,260 minus value of sunroof for the gas only.
$ 21,850 for the hybrid.

[MemphisTiger]

24. I did not know that

good to know. Good deal either way.

[cascadiance]

34. Toyota does sell the Prius currently under cost...

Not sure how soon this equation might change as the cars get more popular and more mass produced, but they priced the Prius under the cost of what it cost them to manufacture it so that they could get a good idea of how many they could sell at their selling point now if they were mass produced (where the manufacturing costs could be lowered with volume where they could make a profit from them).

[skids]

40. I heard that had been reversed with the HSD model.

The 2004+ share most of the assembly line with normal models. I believe Toyota was turning a profit by then.

[BushOut06]

2. Shit, I thought you were talking about hybrid animals

We need to come up with a list of chimera myths.

[skids]

4. Myth #1: They are breeding zebra-skinned prostitutes.

OK, well, maybe that's not a common myth. But it would be funny if it was. :-)

[politicaholic]

5. I know what you mean, my cat/squirrel isn't as skittish as some may think-

But having a medium sized pet that lives on cocktail nuts gets mighty expensive.

[Blue Belle]

13. Nice!

Almost made coffee shoot out my nose!
:rofl:

[Democrats_win]

3. Great list. Americans have the power to improve the situation.

[lectrobyte]

6. I saw a Prius the other day with a Bush/Cheney '04 sticker on it.

Raleigh NC, though, nothing would surprise me here.

[Blue Belle]

14. I saw one of those too prior to the election.

And I was just outside of Portland, OR - so that does surprise me a little.

[TlalocW]

7. I thought all batteries eventually had to be replaced...

How is that not true for Hybrids?

And how would Hybrids pose a threat to first responders? "Quick! We need to get all 5 of our fire trucks down to the pier! There was an explosion - a possible terrorist attack!" "Let's get a move on! Open the doors... Holy shit! There's a Civic Hybrid parked across the street! Fall back! Run away! Panic in the streets! We're doooooooooooooomed! Doomed I tell you!"

TlalocW

[skids]

9. IMO the battery point is the weakest one in the article.

What they are saying is that the batteries should outlast the car itself.

The weak point is the idea that one would replace a single cell in a multicell bank. It's generally not advised to mix new and old batteries.

But for the most part they are right. One of my favorite unattributed quotes:

"FEW BATTERIES DIE A NATURAL DEATH...MOST ARE MURDERED"

In most appliances like laptops/etc, there is pretty piss-poor battery management when it comes to life extension. They have some complicated charge controllers in them, true, but in order to cut costs/weight they let the battery drain farther than they should/charge farther than it should, and that decreases life. If you don't drain or fully charge the batteries, and if you monitor their temperature and don't pull/push energy to/from them faster than they can handle, they can last a whole lot longer. Toyota's hybrid battery management is top notch -- the EPA techs were salivating over it, as compared to Honda's which was a little more brutal on the batteries.

Although batteries do have a natural decay over time regardless of how much they are used it is pretty long and usually they die because their "cycle life" is exhausted. (Note that it may be tempting to call this their "shelf life" but don't, because that term has a special meaning to battery techies.)

Anyway for a personal touch here's the situation I'm in with mine: I have a 2002 prius I use in the Northeast all season. The batteries seem to be working as good as new -- no mileage impact. By the time I need to replace them the warranty will probably have long ago expired (it expires in 2012 or at 100K miles.) Noone knows what battery prices are going to be in 2012 -- there have been a lot of nanotech advances in Li-ion. It's quite likely that by that time, even though this is a neglected Prius-classic, there will be a kit to change the vehicle into a plug-in hybrid by putting in beefier batteries. If so, and the rest of the car is in good shape and there isn't something vastly superior on the market by then, I'll probably kill two birds with one stone and get the PHEV ability in addition to the battery replacement.

[sendero]

26. That line about..

... batteries being murdered was made in reference to the standard lead-acid wet cell, like most standard car batteries. These batteries, if left in a discharged state for very long, will basically self-destruct.

The batteries being using in hybrids are, I believe, nickel-metal-hydride batteries. Of the same composition as are typically used in digital cameras.

These batteries, and ALL BATTERIES, have a finite life. When people talk about "the life of the car", you sure need to query them "and how do you quantify that".

Because to some people, that would be something like 100,000 miles. And I've read that the batteries cost $7,000 to replace. If that is true, you can do some basic calculations (gas saved) and see that hybrids might not actually save cost at all.

[NickB79]

27. The battery pack for a Prius currently costs $3000

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybridcarfaq/f/batterycost.htm

"In November of 2005, when asked about the price of a new Prius battery, Toyota spokeswoman Mona Richard said, "The service parts price for a new battery is $3000, but we have not had to sell a battery yet.""

[skids]

31. That line applies to all batteries.

Almost all technologies are sensitive to being left uncharged, or operated deep cycle, or used at a high C rating not just lead acid.

[BiggJawn]

8. I have to dispute #2.

The damn batteries WILL wear out some day, and they WILL have to be replaced! NOTHING lasts forever!

Maybe not by the original purchaser, but maybe the poor single mom who will acquire a new-to-her 2003 Prius with 120,000 miles on it in 2015 will get stuck replacing it.

Again, Wall Street and the Latte Liberals ignore The Poor.

[skids]

10. It's not expected that the poor will buy used hybrids much.

They have too high a resale value to be affordable for used car bargain hunters.

The point is well taken, though. I would advise anyone buying used hybrids to do so from the dealer and insist on a renewed warranty for the entire hybrid system including batteries. If they are reluctant to give you that, don't buy.

[BiggJawn]

38. "Bargain hunters"?

Boy, maybe it's just late, but you came off there sounding like some elitist snob.

Do you HONESTLY expect a 12-y-o car with a rather expensive part out of warranty to have much of a resale value? I sure don't, and that's exactly the kind of car poor people buy, some old Hoopdy that they're betting and hoping won't totally self-destruct before the payment book is finished and MAYBE it'll hang in there long enough so they can save up a down payment for something newer and more reliable.

Been there, done that, got the scars still to this day.

I was thinking about this thread tonight while looking over posts to my local freecycle list. Guy looking for an engine for a pre--'73 ford pinto. Something tells me they're not some rich idler looking for parts for his concours project car.

BTW, the "warranty" from a buy-here-pay-here lot ain't worth the breath the Herb Tarlek clone spent repeating it to you.

[skids]

39. Yup, It's just late.

Ain't nothing wrong with hunting a bargain. Other than private sales, hybrids generally get traded in at the dealership because the current high levels of demand makes dealers eager to remarket them. The dealers are capable of assessing the part and figuring how long they can profitably stretch a warranty. Resale value is indeed rather high, which is why I was saying a poor person probably won't want to buy one. A used non-hybrid car will be much cheaper.

I've done the "hope it doesn't crap out" budget car thing too, back in the days. Had two identical dirt-cheap 12 year old 4-banger mustangs because I figured once one crapped out I'd have plenty of spare parts. Didn't work out that way in the long run `cause a drunk totalled one -- but it did save me a lot of hassle, as when one had to go in for repairs I was still on the road with no hassle at all.

Before that I drove a $600 superbeetle with, I'm ashamed to say, a rather environmentally irresponsible number of chemical leaks and brakes you had to keep pumped while you drove. Ah the travails of youth.

[BiggJawn]

41. LOL.

Yeah, we're brothers of the midnight "get it fixed before I have to go to work in 7 hours" club, for sure.
Never had the luxury of a runner and a spare, unless you count the motorcycle that actually did see usage on crappy sleeting and rainy days (laid it down in morning rush hour on the interstate one cold, snowy morning...)

When you have the money to pay more, you're "hunting a bargain", when you're broke, you're just trying to make it. Well-off people "hunt bargains", not the poor. The poor usually get ripped-off because they don't have the luxury of saying "feh. I'm not paying that, I really don't NEED it..."

Man, I hated those days. Really hated 'em.

[lectrobyte]

15. But in 2015, who knows how much batteries will cost, or how many

batteries will be on the used market from Prius's that were totalled in 2010 from angry SUV drivers running over them after gas prices hit $12/gallon after oil production falls in Venezuela due to the inability of coalition troops to protect the oil pipelines from sabotage...

[zbdent]

11. I thought they were:

1. Minotaur

2. Centaur

3. Gryphon

4. Platypus - oh, wait . . .

5. Satyr

6. Horsefly - oh, wait . . .

7. Housefly - oh, wait . . .

8. Compassionate conservative - oh, wait . . .

9. Myrtle (man-turtle)

10. Santorum (head in ass?)

[boise1]

12. #1 is true, but hybrids should at least have the ability for plugging-in

Japan apparently feels American buyers wouldn't stand for the 'inconvenience' of an occasional plug-in for battery recharging. This would greatly increase the effective fuel mileage, especially for those who make more frequent short trips.

[lectrobyte]

16. Some folks have done that on their own, I expect we'll see it in the

next wave of technology. There was an article out recently about someone with a Prius who was getting around 120MPG by adding more batteries and plug-in charging.

[boise1]

17. They're claiming up to 180mpg in this article :

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_plugin_hybr_1.html

[leeroysphitz]

19. 11. Hybrids are not powered exclusively by GASOLINE... n/t

[Paulie]

37. Honda's are, Toyota's are not

Honda with their assist technology, require the gas motor to be the primary propulsion method. It's an electric motor attached to the drive shaft.

Toyota on the other hand is a gas powered golf cart. We call it Stealth Mode, where it runs pure electric on battery power. There is only one forward gear in the Toyota's system, reverse is done by electric only.

[Dancindays]

20. good list

..some are kind of week but good list none-the-less.

[applegrove]

21. I wonder if Bush used the word HYBRID when he talked of animal/human

Hybrids... just to dismiss the word. Don't know. I mean are animal/human hybrids really a pressing issue right now?

[bullwinkle428]

25. I think diesels are getting the short end of it, so to speak,

in the discussion of more fuel-efficient vehicles. If you do own a hybrid, MORE POWER TO YOU! We, as a society, need to become much more energy consumption-conscious than we are right now. The problem is, as mentioned by some others, that the hybrid versions cost $5000-10000 more than their gasoline engine-equipped counterparts. For those who don't think there would be a market for diesels, I can tell you that VW, which makes 3 models with a diesel engine, has no trouble selling every diesel-equipped vehicle in the U.S. without any kind of deep discounts or marketing incentives or gimmicks, and Mercedes is currently selling their one diesel-equipped model, at a rate beyond initial projections. Price-wise, the VWs cost about $1500 more than their base (gas) engine-equipped counterparts. I still blame GM, for producing those atrocious diesel engines for several of their cars back in the early 80s, in response to the first gas crisis...

[lectrobyte]

28. I may be starting another myth, but I thought the hybrids originated

in Japan in response more to air pollution laws than strictly for fuel efficiency. Diesels are fuel efficient, but are they clean? I am sure they are much better than they used to be, but not sure how they compare.

[bullwinkle428]

32. Diesels have improved considerably in terms of emissions,

but new EPA regulations mandating ultra-low sulfur levels in the fuel were supposed to go into effect sometime this year, although apparently that's not set in stone, due to *'s people running the show right now. The goal of these new regulations was to make the diesel as clean as a gas engine, if not more so. Of course, biodiesel produces ridiculously low levels of emissions - not to mention your car will smell like french fries if your bio is produced from waste veggie oil! Bio production from algae is actually showing some real promise in terms of a large-scale requirement we would see years form now.

[lectrobyte]

36. Good to hear. That biodiesel sounds great. I even saw that on

one of Spike TV's car shows one weekend, a make your own how-to, although it was geared towards the Ford Powerstroke <make stroke gesture here> crowd than TDI owners.

[yourout]

29. Me and my new TDI Jetta agree.

I was talking with my VW dealer about GM's awfull 70's diesels. My Jetta is barely louder than a gas powered car and doe not smell at all. Now with low sulfer diesel being phased in emissions will be lower than gas powered cars.

[bullwinkle428]

33. I test drove a Jetta TDI recently - I was totally impressed with the

power, the lack of noise, and the lack of smell, in addition to the handling characteristics and fit and finish typical of German-designed cars. I want to replace my current 29-30 mpg Honda Accord for something even more fuel-efficient when the time comes in the next year or two, and the TDI is at the top of my list right now.

[skids]

30. It's not a stick, so there's no short end.

See here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/31/14135/4436

They won't be sold in the U.S. because in the U.S. hybrid = PZEV. For PZEV to be economically manufactured, we need ULSD fuel. That's supposed to happen this summer, but with BushCo in charge, who knows...

[bullwinkle428]

35. That is a great-looking car! I should have mentioned the idea

of a diesel hybrid in my initial post, being the best of both worlds. I'm sure hybrid technology will come down in price once there are more competitors and it gets more into the mainstream. I totally hear you on the pushing back of the ULSD requirements - I added a bit on that in one of my follow-up posts...