Why Do People Swear In On the Bible?

[Parche]

I saw that yesterday when Gates put his left hand on the bible and raised his right hand.
Shouldnt the seperation between church and state disallow that?

The bible is just a fictional fantasy book, and should NEVER be used to swear someone in
especially to a government office.

[leftofthedial]

1. just thinking about the bible

makes me want to swear

[SammyWinstonJack]

50. AMEN!

:rofl: :spray:

[yellowcanine]

2. As long as he actually upholds the Constitution he can swear on a roll of TP for all I care.

The Bible certainly didn't stop George Bush from making TP out of the Constitution.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Because ducks float?

:shrug:

[dipsydoodle]

9. Only if

she's made of wood which weighs the same as a duck. :)

[BuyingThyme]

36. What else floats?

[dipsydoodle]

42. Gravy

:rofl:

[BuyingThyme]

48. Very small rocks.

[dipsydoodle]

56. For the overall benifit of other DU'ers

who wonder what we're on - here's the entire script : http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-05.htm :)

edit spelling errors - go figure.

[JNelson6563]

4. Everyone knows

that if you put your hand on a book of ancient myths while taking an oath, you will absolutely fulfill your oath or be struck down dead by a character from said book of ancient myths.

Um, right?

Julie

[Squatch]

5. Gates did not relinquish his right to practice his religion when

he became SecDef.

[treestar]

38. Of course not but does just taking up the job without swearing on the book

really prevent him from practicing his religion? He can still go to church every Sunday.

[atreides1]

6. I believe

That there is a passage in the Bible where it is said not to swear in God's name.

[J Miles]

11. Good point

I've never thought of it that way before. Someone should point that out to the nuts on the far-right who are opposed to the separation of church and state. (Not that it would make any difference.)

[moblsv]

12. yes, there is

A religous scholar friend of mine (now an athiest) showed it to me a while ago. It was the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew

“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. holding you hand on a bible is not swearing 'in' God's name...

it is swearing a oath in the 'presence' of God. A nitpicky difference...

sP

[no_hypocrisy]

7. For a long while, legally the only option you had to swear to

something was on the Bible. "Recently" you may affirm without putting your hand on the Bible to be considered to have pledged to tell the truth.

I don't know about how this legal tradition began, but I can see how it was present in Plymouth and the other Pilgrim camps as they blended religion with everyday civil law and tradition. I suppose that the assumption was that if you were to swear on the Bible, but you lied when you did it, then your punishment after death would be more severe than any civil penalty a common judge could order (Judgment Day, y'know), so you weren't going to get away with lying no matter what.

[moblsv]

10. Origin of the Species

Can I use something a bit more factual, like Origin of the Species? Or, if they insist on fiction can it at least be something better written like Harry Potter?

[Recursion]

28. The option of affirmation was there from the beginning

Quakers, Orthodox Jews, and some other groups for religious reasons do not swear oaths, so they may sit or take office under affirmation rather than under oath; this protection is specified in the Constitution. Note the language from Article II:

Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[moblsv]

8. constitution

Notice the part about "no religious Test shall ever be required"

Article VI

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

[liberalEd]

13. Get that damn hate literature out of my hotel room!

Oh wait, that's swearing AT/ABOUT the bible.

[Dr.Phool]

20. The Freedom From Religion Foundation has buy-bull warning labels

You can buy them, and stick them on or in the bible in your room.

www.ffrf.org

[liberalEd]

22. Those are very cool. n/t

[northofdenali]

31. I like their website.

Thought for today:
“A nation which thinks that it is belief in God and not good law which makes people honest does not seem to me very advanced.”

-- French Encyclopedist Denis Diderot (1713-1784). "Missionaries, Atheists, and Marriage," excerpted from letters to his favorite mistress, Mlle. Volland, quoted in French Thought in the Eighteenth Century, edited by Geoffrey Brereton, and cited in Classics of Freethought, edited by Paul Blanshard.

The stickers are cool, too!

I think any "swearing in" should be done on the Constitution, period.

[Ezlivin]

14. And why the hell does someone have to be "sworn in" anyway?

If they break their "oath" does anything ever happen?

The bastards in Bush's administration have broken so many laws it's hard to keep count. What good did swearing them in do?

[nashville_brook]

15. for the photo-op

[slackmaster]

16. They don't always

Members of Congress are sworn in en masse with no books.

Most swearings-in are just photo ops.

The bible is just a fictional fantasy book, and should NEVER be used to swear someone in
especially to a government office.

If it's just a fictional fantasy book, what harm is done by someone touching it while reciting an oath?

[kimmerspixelated]

18. This is all very interesting..

and the thing I'm looking forward to is having Cheney put under oath by The man-Pat.Fitgerald. Put your hand on the bible-Mr. Numbnutz, nobody is going to believe you anyway. The hypocrisy will be overwhelming, but I'd still like to see it. At the very least maybe someone can wipe that shit eating grin off his face.

[Parche]

25. fantasy book

Because you are taking an oath of office, to uphold the US Constitution and the bible has nothing
to do with that....the bible is one of the worst if not the worst book in human history, taken
out of context, nothing but hate and wars have been started over the bible.

[slackmaster]

27. Again, what HARM is done when someone uses a Bible in a photop op?

Because you are taking an oath of office, to uphold the US Constitution and the bible has nothing
to do with that....the bible is one of the worst if not the worst book in human history, taken
out of context, nothing but hate and wars have been started over the bible.

Please address my question and resist the temptation to turn this into a religion-bashing thread.

If the Bible has nothing to do with it, why is having one's hand on one any different from, say, holding a yo-yo?

[Parche]

30. question was answered

This is not a religion bashing thread, and I dont know why you are saying that.

The bible has nothing to do with the constition and should not be relayed as such by using it
to swear in on.
It is revolting to watch our government officials swearing in on a book that has caused so much
hate in the world.


They should just raise their right hand and be done....period, no left hand on anything.....

[slackmaster]

33. Your last sentence...

They should just raise their right hand and be done....period, no left hand on anything.....

Describes how members of Congress are sworn in.

It is revolting to watch our government officials swearing in on a book that has caused so much
hate in the world.

Sorry Parche, none of us has a right to live in a world free of things we find revolting.

[Parche]

39. congress

Yes, if Congress swears in with just their right hand like they do, then that is fine.

But I dont want a 'religious' item to be used for a swearing in ceremony period.

It is a common sense item.

Ok, I said that statement wrong, (no left hand on anything)
They should all have their left hand on their...groin.

[slackmaster]

40. I don't see any value in appeals to "common sense"

There are as many versions of that as there are people.

[Parche]

41. common sense

So why do you think he should swear on the bible???

Isnt there seperation of church and state?

[slackmaster]

43. Straw Man

So why do you think he should swear on the bible???

I never said I thought anyone should or should not swear on the Bible or any other book.

I just don't care. Not one bit.

Isnt there seperation of church and state?

Abso-fucking-lutely, and as long as nobody is REQUIRED to swear on a Bible there really isn't a problem, except perhaps in your taking this way too seriously.

[Parche]

46. When Scarecrows cant even scare............crows

"Scarecrows and magic and other fatal fears do not bring people closer together. There is no magic substitute for soft caring and hard work, for self-respect and mutual love. If we can learn this from the mistake these frightened men made, then their mistake will not have been merely grotesque. It will have been at least a lesson—a lesson at last to be learned."

[Journeyman]

29. I commend you to the thoughts of Alan Watts . . .

The World's Most Dangerous Book

http://www.geocities.com/whatzitallmean/TWMDB.html

[Bill McBlueState]

53. it gives the wrong impression

Swearing on a "fictional fantasy book" gives the impression that the government endorses what's in that book, which is unconstitutional.

That doesn't make the act itself unconstitutional, but it's the wrong message to send if you're an elected official who values government neutrality toward religion.

[slackmaster]

59. Funny, I don't get that impression

When I see a photo op in progress, I see a photo op in progress.

:shrug:

Maybe I'm too rebelious to be controlled so easily.

[smirkymonkey]

65. Instead of the Bible, I think they should be sworn in on a copy of

"My Pet Goat"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. In BushCorps instance it's good practice for what they'll be doing in court.

Hopefully.

[Mojambo]

19. It'd be much more fun if they were required to swear AT the Bible

Standing there with their hands on their hips staring down at the Bible on the table...

"You motherf*cking, c*cksucking, piece of sh*t!"

[liberalEd]

21. Now that would be a photo op! n/t

[Historic NY]

23. Swearing in theory & practice.........

There are 2 types of oaths, Civil & Commons oaths. The one we all did in our youth is a Common Oath. Remember how we would, "Cross my heart and hope to die, if I'm not telling the truth." We would swear it was true, etc. etc. We sometimes would say swear to God, or God strike me dead. Well its is the same thing only on the bible.

The Civil oath recognizes that man is fallible and capable of lying. The oath on the bible is a way of saying the truth is expected and that one solemnly swears to tell the truth. To lie is to commit perjury. In the old days ones word was his bond. All Christians were believed to be truthful and swearing on the bible just affirmed that. When a person meant yes, it was yes and no was no. Some people cannot swear on a bible and they make an affirmation that what they will say is truthful.This means they will the truth as to the best of their knowledge as they understand it. This is usually reserved for those who in good conscience cannot swear on a bible. This plays out in court rooms around the country day after day.

Its funny how people believe that our elected or appointed officials have to swear on a bible. Some also believe that they must say "so help me God". No where in the Constitution is this mentioned or even prescribed. The person taking the oath only has to affirm that he shall up hold the Constitution to this he swears under the penalty of purjury. The entire process was meant to remain secular. There is nothing that even states a bible is to be used. The affirmation/oath is meant to be made in front of ones fellow citizens who bear witness.

The Presidential oath of office is described in Article II, section 1 of the Constitution:

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

God isn't there.......Presidents usually include this phrase in their inauguration ceremonies, the words are custom and not required by the Constitution and have no legal significance.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Arguably, by adding unconstitutional text, they aren't taking the Oath at all

I've seen interesting arguments that the Oath of Office must be said as is, with nothing added or taken away; and that, as a result, every president who added "so help me God" or other formula never took the specified oath and thus have held office without Constitutional sanction.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. Because they are ignorant freaks who can't be bothered to read the thing

"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil. -- Matthew 5:33-37

[tammywammy]

45. "Because they're ignorant freaks..."

Does that apply to everyone that's used the Bible while swearing an oath of office?

[TechBear_Seattle]

49. If they claim to follow the Word of God...

... and then break what is a very clear, very plainly stated command from Jesus Himself, I think "ignorant" is entirely accurate. My use of "freak" was judgemental and without merit; my apologies.

Jesus said, "Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black." Why then should swearing by the Bible, which is the Word of God, be acceptable?

Jesus said, "Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil." I assert that doing anything beyond making a simple declaration -- such as putting a hand on the Bible, raising one hand in a ritual gesture or adding "So help me God" or other contentless formula -- falls into the category of "anything more" and thus comes from evil. If one really and truly believes in what the Bible says then a basic declaration or simple statement of assent is all that is necessary and, more to the point, is all that is permitted. I further assert that anyone who feels it necessary to do more is demonstrating either ignorance of the Bible or a willful disregard of what it teaches.

[tammywammy]

51. I agree

As a Christian I wouldn't want to swear upon the Bible.

Unfortunately, when George Washington took his oath of office, he set the precedent of using the Bible as affirmation of the oath.

I also agree with it's more out of ignorance and the "tradition" of it, than having "willful disregard of what it teaches." I believe there have been some faithful Christians that have sworn an oath upon the Bible, including former President Carter.

Thank you for clarifying your position.

[TechBear_Seattle]

54. Self deleted (too much incorrect information)

Google is a double-edged sword.

Never mind, nothing to see, move along now.

[tammywammy]

55. Pierce didn't swear, he affirmed

but he also used a Bible.

[Mich Otter]

32. He put his crooked, thieving hands on a bible...

as he spewed forth lies that he has no intention of honoring, just so the religious nuts would be persuaded he is a good man.
Any true Christians ought to be up in arms about people like Bush or Delay who put their filthy hands on a bible. What could be a more public demonstration of a desecration?

[tammywammy]

34. It's been tradition since George Washington

He used a Bible when taking the oath of office.

And since it's not required, there's no separation issues.

[Seeking Serenity]

44. Ding, ding, ding!

Finally, someone who actually knew the answer to the question, instead of merely adding to the flame bait.

(edited)

[Raine]

35. You can swear on anything

that is meaningful to you. I assume the bible means somthing to him and people who swear on it. :shrug:

[treestar]

37. Long entrenched tradition

that is easier to follow than quietly remove; the fundies will pitch a fit so why not just swear on it, is probably how the feeling goes. It won't hurt to swear on it, so just do it rather than deal with the fundies making a big deal of it.

Not really a good idea, because it makes it harder to do later, but human nature is lazy and fixated on the present.

[mitchum]

47. Crazyass superstitious nonsense

[Generic Brad]

52. God damned if I know why

I'll get off of my Bible now. My work here is done.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. why do you believe it is 'used'?

there is nothing about the fact that a bible was 'used' to swear someone in to indicate that it is a requirement of swearing in. You can be sworn in without ANY document at your finger tips. You can be sworn in with a copy of the Constitution...a dictionary...yellow pages...nothing...a Bible. The Bible was not USED in this case...it was chosen.

If someone takes an oath, taking that oath in the presence of that which one holds dear could make that oath more powerful and 'real' to them. Of course, it could have been just for show (I don't know the man) but unless you know him you can't really judge that bit. As to the fantasy bit, well, that's potentially fantasy as well...it's just a belief.

sP

OnEdit : third person pronoun disagreement

[yurbud]

60. Haven't you ever been curious what's under the Bible on grandma's coffee table? using it for

swearing in is just an excuse to pick it up and look.

[yurbud]

61. If you were going to swear in on a different book just to make a point, what would it be?

I'd use Smedley Butler's War Is a Racket or maybe Uncle Tom's Cabin, the best chronicle of religious hypocrisy, economic injustice, and racism in American history.

[slackmaster]

63. Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss

[noonwitch]

62. I testify in court a lot for work, and I have yet to swear on a Bible

In the Wayne County, Michigan court system. Most court officers here don't even use God in the oath anymore. Every once in a while, one will.

[yurbud]

64. they just swear on their mothers eyes?