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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 09:49 PM
Original message
Jonah Goldberg is a f..king psycho....
And unfortunately, I think he offers a window into the authoritarian conservative mindset of those 29 percent who still approve of *.

Jonah Goldberg: It would be great if U.S. could find an Iraqi Augusto Pinochet
By JONAH GOLDBERG

Monday, Dec. 18, 2006

I THINK ALL intelligent, patriotic and informed people can agree: It would be great if the U.S. could find an Iraqi Augusto Pinochet. In fact, an Iraqi Pinochet would be even better than an Iraqi Castro.

Both propositions strike me as so self-evident as to require no explanation. But as I have discovered in recent days, many otherwise rational people can't think straight when the names Fidel Castro and Augusto Pinochet come up.

Let's put aside, at least for a moment, the question of which man was (or is) "worse." Suffice it to say, both have more blood on their hands than a decent conscience should be able to bear. Still, if all you want to do is keep score, then Castro almost surely has many more bodies on his rap sheet. The Cuba Archive estimates that Castro is responsible for the deaths of at least 9,240 people, though the real number could be many times that, particularly if you include the estimate of nearly 77,000 men, women and children who have died trying to flee the "socialist paradise."

But there are measures besides body counts. Castro took Cuba, once among the most prosperous nations in Latin America and destined for First World status, and rendered it poorer than nearby Jamaica and heading Haiti-ward. The island is a prison, and trying to leave can be a capital crime.

Civil liberties are a sham, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are nonexistent, and dissidents are routinely thrown in prison. Civil society has become deeply politicized and, hence, corrupted. In the 1990s, Castro dabbled with liberalizing the economy after welfare from the Soviet Union dried up, but he soon realized that free markets bring other freedoms, so he cast the Cuban people back into poverty rather than risk any threat to his rule. Now Castro, rudely taking a long time to die, is transferring all power to his brother, Raul. Not exactly an open primary. On the plus side, we are told, Cuba has very impressive literacy, longevity and infant mortality rates -- and lavish hotels for hard-currency-carrying Westerners.

Now consider Chile. Gen. Pinochet seized a country coming apart at the seams. He too clamped down on civil liberties and the press. He too dispatched souls. Chile's official commission investigating his dictatorship found that Pinochet had 3,197 bodies in his column; 87 percent of them died in the two-week mini-civil war that attended his coup. Many more were tortured or forced to flee the country.

But on the plus side, Pinochet's abuses helped create a civil society. Once the initial bloodshed subsided, Chile was no prison. Pinochet built up democratic institutions and infrastructure. And by implementing free-market reforms, he lifted the Chilean people out of poverty. In 1988, he held a referendum and stepped down when the people voted him out. Yes, he feathered his nest from the treasury and took measures to protect himself from his enemies. His list of sins -- both venal and moral -- is long. But today Chile is a thriving, healthy democracy. Its economy is the envy of Latin America, and its literacy and infant mortality rates are impressive.

I ask you: Which model do you think the average Iraqi would prefer? Which model, if implemented, would result in future generations calling Iraq a success? An Iraqi Pinochet would provide order and put the country on the path toward liberalism, democracy and the rule of law. (If only Ahmad Chalabi had been such a man.)

Now, you might say: "This is unfair. This is a choice between two bad options." OK, true enough. But that's all we face in Iraq: bad options. When presented with such a predicament, the wise man chooses the more moral, or less immoral, path. The conservative defense of Pinochet was that he was the least-bad option; better the path of Pinochet than the path toward Castroism, which is where Chile was heading before the general seized power. Better, that is, for the United States and for Chileans.

I bring all this up because in the wake of Pinochet's death (and Jeane Kirkpatrick's), the old debate over conservative indulgence of Pinochet has elicited shrieking from many on the left claiming that any toleration of Pinochet was inherently immoral -- their own tolerance of Castro notwithstanding.

But these days, there's a newfound love for precisely this sort of realpolitik. Consider Jonathan Chait, who recently floated a Swiftian proposal that we put Saddam Hussein back in power in Iraq because, given his track record of maintaining stability and recognizing how terrible things could get in Iraq, Hussein might actually represent the least-bad option. Even discounting his sarcasm, this was morally myopic. But it seems to me, if you can contemplate reinstalling a Hussein, you'd count yourself lucky to have a Pinochet.


http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=253ae615-1233-49a1-add2-b19a455d97fa&headline=Jonah+Goldberg%3a+It+would+be+great+if+U.S.+could+find+an+Iraqi+Augusto+Pinochet

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Can someone arrange to "disappear" this fat fuck?
How much better would the world be if his mother had spontaneously aborted him?
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You do know who his mother is?
Edited on Tue Dec-19-06 10:09 PM by ocelot
That would be Lucianne Goldberg, good pal of Linda Tripp. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucianne_Goldberg

"(Lucianne) Goldberg met Linda Tripp in the early part of the Clinton administration while assisting an author writing a book on Vince Foster. Tripp spoke with Goldberg resulting in Lewinsky bringing the tapes to her in 1997. Goldberg also urged Tripp to take the tapes to Kenneth Starr and brought the tapes to the attention of people working on the Paula Jones case. Within days of the scandal breaking on the Drudge Report, the Democratic National Committee circulated an "information sheet" to reporters with information intended to damage Goldberg. Goldberg spoke at an anti-Clinton rally organised by Free Republic.

Following the impeachment scandal, Goldberg has launched a conservative internet forum called lucianne.com. The forum is similar in format to Free Republic. Though the forum does not allow "Articles from hate group sites such as KKK, Aryan Nation, American Nazi Party, etc.", it has been criticized for racist comments posted on its forums. Mark Lane, founder of the now defunct website LucianneWatch.com, complained about the website's content to the US Marines, prompting them to pull their advertising from the site."

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I was just going to say that!
:hi:
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Don't forget, she used to get money from the Nixon crowd to write favorable stories and get inside
info from Dem candidates to get back to Nixon.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Or how much better the world would be if she had died in childbirth?
I mean that. I have no compassion for these goddamn monsters.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. RIght there with ya
:grr:
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hummmmm,someone like say............Saddam
So we shock and awe the population, destroy the infrastructure, install a theocratic government, instigate a civil war, and now that the country is ruined, we find the country needs a Saddam to hold it together.
Why doesn't Jonah sign his bad self up go over to Iraq and straighten the damn mess up himself. Maybe Mommy Dearest could go along to protect him.
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muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Germany under Hitler prospered economically too.
Edited on Tue Dec-19-06 09:58 PM by muntrv
:sarcasm:
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. It all makes so much sense...
When it is written from the comfort of Mr. Goldberg's study. Perhaps Mr. Goldberg would like to live what he preaches? Under an violently authoritarian right-wing dictatorship?

Being Lucianne's son obviously does nothing for one's sanity.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Amazingly enough, a lot of knuckledraggers find Pinochet to be a heroic figure.
I find it stunning, but there you go. Goldberg is actually speaking for a lot a rightwing frothers.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. If those freepers like Nazi type leaders so much, why don't they go live in
a country that has a fascist dictatorship like North Korea?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. They love their RW fascist dictators....as long as they are in the ruling class of said countries.
Jonah and his ilk will always support anti-democrats. It's how they can get ahead and stay ahead in this world. Totalitarian dictators never run out of Jonahs who provide the intellectual cover for their rule. Which is why Jonah's writing for the LA Times now. It's not because he's good at his craft; he's, in fact, quite mediocre. But what he is good at is providing cover for the criminals who run this country. He's a true media whore...he does it for the money.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. How could one person get so much wrong in one small article?
"Pinochet's abuses helped create a civil society. Once the initial bloodshed subsided, Chile was no prison. Pinochet built up democratic institutions and infrastructure. And by implementing free-market reforms, he lifted the Chilean people out of poverty."

Civil society existed long before Pinochet - Chile had the oldest continuous democracy in South America before his coup. He did not build up democratic institutions - he tore them down. They had existed before him, and he put restrictions on the press that had never before existed. His free market reforms consisted of handing back immense power to the (primarily US) corporations while crushing the unions. It was these corporations who were exploiting the workers that created the poverty that Allende was working against, and Pinochet worked his best to preserve.

And don't get me started on his lies about Cuba.
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Larry_the_hiker Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. What did he get wrong about Cuba? (not a rhetorical question)
I mean, it's Goldberg, so I'm sure he screwed up. What's Castro's actual death count? I keep hearing different things on that.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. A lot
Cuba before the revolution was the US' brothel and casino. There was an unbelievable amount of inequity, as there was a small elite with practically all of the wealth, while the vast majority of Cubans lived in poverty. Cuba was not prosperous, it was prosperous for a select few who oppressed them many. Batista was a dictator, and the use of death squads was common.

The revolutionary government has improved everything from the medical system (the best in Latin America and one which rivals western nations) to representation (check link at bottom of post) to literacy (arguably better than the US') to the banning of prostitution and more. People have tried to emigrate, this is true, but there are relatively few of them (especially when one considers the US embargoes AND the fact that the US grants amnesty to Cubans who reach US shores).

There's more, but that's a good start. There's some info on Cuba below if you wish to read it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before the 1959 revolution
• 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
• More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
• 85% had no inside running water.
• 91% had no electricity.
• There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
• More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
• Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
• The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
• 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
• 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
• 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
• 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
• Racial discrimination was widespread.
• The public school system had deteriorated badly.
• Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
• Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a link to the political process in Cuba:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Hi Larry_the_hiker!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. Hmm, would that be the same "democratic institutions"...
...through which Allende was legitimately elected by the will of the people before being ousted by Pinochet in a violent coup?

Yeah, Jonah Goldberg knows "democracy" alright. What a piece of shit.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Mike Malloy just said that the Los Angeles Times fired
Robert Scheer (a great political essayist) to hire him instead.

Also, he said that Lucienne has said she tried to abort him and it failed.

:wow: No wonder he's a psycho with a mother like that and to know that she didn't want him.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well, Jesus, by that model Hitler was a great leader!
"Now consider Germany. Hitler seized a country coming apart at the seams. He too clamped down on civil liberties and the press. He too dispatched souls. But after he first came to power, he killed very few political rivals. Sure, he took measures to protect himself from his enemies. But today Germany is a thriving, healthy democracy. Its economy is the envy of East Europe, and its literacy and infant mortality rates are impressive."

If you can contemplate reinstalling a Hussein, you'd count yourself lucky to have a Hitler.
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aka-chmeee Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. Careful what you wish!
I complained for years about the featured writer in the local rag. I hated Kathleen Parker as an Ann Coulter wannabe and wished her gone from my newspaper. I got my wish and she was no longer featured on the editorial page. Unfortunately, they replaced her with this cheneyhead.
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. Just read this in the paper. What a total fucking idjit
1) why not just put Saddam back in power and say "Ooops" to the 700,000 or so who died.
2) Why isn't this piece of shit in the Army? They should just go drag his ass out in the middle of the night and plop it in Iraq.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wait, I thought Jonah Goldberg WAS the Iraqi Pinochet
Or is he still too much of a pussy to go fight his own war?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
18. He's also a gultess coward blathering piece of shit mama's boy...
whose passing wouldn't even be mourned by his harridan bitch of a mother
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Send His Corpulent Ass To Iraq NOW!
Peace & Love to you my FAV DUer!:loveya:
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Peace and Love to you also
:)
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. Well you know the path he took to enter this world
so I'm not surprised he'd be screwed-up
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. Proof evolution is far from complete
and some are really screwing up the curve. :-)
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
27. way back I sent him a nasty email
briefly telling him that he made a career off of the Lewwinsky bl*wjob, and he should hop on his mom's broomstick and fly off into the sunset.

He responded! It was terse, I remember. I got the impression I'd struck a nerve.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
28. I no longer bother reading his columns.
It's like reading a Michael Barone column, or Thomas Sowell - perfectly predictable, therefore unnecessary to actually read. Look at the angst I spare myself!
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