I am utterly in awe at the very idea that DU wouldn't back Cindy 100%

[WilliamPitt]

The mind boggles.

Name for me please one person whose actions and words you agree with in every way, all the time.

I don't have one person I can name.

Name for me please one person who did more to put this war in people's back yards over the last year.

I don't have one person I can name.

We all do the best we can with what we have, with our skills and hopes and beliefs. Cindy Sheehan has done more than most. If she misspeaks in your opinion, or puts a wrong foot here and there, well, that's human nature. She isn't a pro. She's a person who is attempting to translate her pain into effective action.

Everyone here has a right to their opinions, and are certainly well within those rights to point at an instance where they think Cindy Sheehan did or said the wrong thing.

But the very idea that this community, which presumes itself to be one of action and change, can summon anything other than support and admiration for Cindy Sheehan puts lie to this community's opinion of itself and its purpose.

It's damned shameful.

[Skinner]

1. Someone is going to say that they are all trolls

in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[Seen the light]

3. They're all trolls

;)

[dchill]

219. They are now.

[WilliamPitt]

21. If they are

they've been 'trolling' for four years, in several cases.

I don't buy it. I've seen the names involved for a long time on this board.

[Cleita]

36. That doesn't mean anything.

I know some who have been here longer than me and who are definitely RW plants. They very carefully fly under the radar though, never going far enough to be tombstoned.

[RazzleDazzle]

206. Absolutely

I don't know why Pitt is so surprised -- it's not like this is a particularly liberal/progressive place, all in all. Conservatives galore. And oh, yeah, "moderates." And sexists and racists and homophobes too. Hell, some of the folks who've come here as openly converted Republicans are more liberal than some of the regulars.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

344. I think it's great to have moderates and conservatives here

In a limited capacity. May be they'll learn something and help change the views of other conservatives and moderates. As long as they are not disruptive we have to give them the opportunity to educate themselves. We may even learn something from them. Eh, probably not.

[TInCanCommunications]

287. Paranoid

Why is it so hard to believe that some people don't think the pro-peace movement is best served with Cindy as it's "logo".

Why should I be ashamed of that thought or why should I be suspected of being a right winger?

You people are as bad as the religious right, sometimes, with the way you attempt to stifle free discussion

[Cleita]

313. Whose talking about Cindy?

Whose talking about trolls necessarily? I'm talking about moles who have been on this board a long time, but who are not one of us. I think they are operatives of lobbyists who appear when an issue comes up that they are against.

It used to be health care, but they are fat and comfortable now that a decent health care plan will never arise again with this Congress and President, so posting about health care issues recently has been pretty much a cake walk.

[Maddy McCall]

293. Depends on how you define troll.

If someone doesn't engage in the total, uncritical worship of the people YOU think should be heroes, then you consider them trolls.


Goddam, that's just sophomoric.

[Cleita]

311. Actually, the DU'ers I'm referring to have more than shown

their RW views in their beliefs about Social Security and Health care. Their arguments could have come right out of New Gingrich's playbook. Of course we don't have quite the open and strident debates, that we did in the early days, but they are still here and I know who they are.

Then, there are the astroturf spreaders who predictably show up during elections with wedge issues, mostly women's reproductive rights, gun issues and covert racist subjects like the border problems.

I won't of course name names, but you'll figure them out soon enough if they don't get you tombstoned. Oh, that's something else they are good at.

We have lost a few good DU'ers who got snared in the little troll webs.

[papau]

114. I know age affects one - but I don't recall the anti-Cindy posts :-(

I hope there were none - but I suspect I just don't remember.

:-(

[Bounce]

139. She's filing a police brutality lawsuit

against the Capitol Hill Police.

It looked to me like they shoved her.

Sue their asses off!

[papau]

146. I agree - she should sue -but who on DU says she should not sue?

??????

[Bounce]

150. Nobody, that wasn't my point - sorry

[Bounce]

210. However...

I didn't see them shoving that rightwingnutcaseskank around!

[Hissyspit]

190. Late in the evening, last night. Mostly complaints about her "tactics"

and that she didn't speak for them.

[dchill]

233. How about an entire thread?

Here ya go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=286755&mesg_id=286755

[Ladyhawk]

252. They're not all trolls. There are some on the other side of this

argument that I like and respect. I just don't understand their position on this one argument. As Pitt said, we aren't going to agree with anyone 100% of the time and that goes for our fellow DUers.

[Maddy McCall]

288. And that whole irony seems to have escaped Pitt.

:hi: Ladyhawk.

[fishnfla]

339. The irony is rich indeed

Shoot, even the chimp hisself says its OK to dissent.

Not on DU though. Must be group think, must be lockstep

[Ladyhawk]

374. Yo, Maddy McCall.

So what if we disagree on this one? :shrug:

Glad you see the irony...hehe. :) :hug:

[OzarkDem]

282. That's entirely possible in some cases

While it might be unusual, its not unlikely.

[ComerPerro]

32. Oh, yeah, Skinner, like you would know how threads flow on this site

:hi:

What are you, the owner or something?

Jeeze

:eyes:

[Beetwasher]

35. Not Trolls (Necessarily)

Idiots, definitely. :evilgrin:

Countdown to deletion in 5...4...3...2..

[La Lioness Priyanka]

256. yes its very idiotic to tolerate more than one way of viewing a person

or a situation. very stupid indeed.

stupid enough to be labelled liberal and tolerant


:eyes:

[Beetwasher]

336. Umm, Lighten Up, It Was A Joke

:eyes: Indeed.

[nomatrix]

149. My dear Skinner, in the GD forum

A fair comparison would be...
faster than a 9/11 thread can be moved by mods to the dungeon.

That fast....

[rman]

170. Trolls, disruptors. Same difference.

Not all perhaps, but it isn't for nothing that we can alert mods to disruptors, who can subsequently tombstone them.

[Thtwudbeme]

199. Yep, I've been trolling here for so long that you gave me the prize

for being the oldest DUer in DC at the Hawk 'n Dove.

Damn, had you all fooled, didn't I?

Oh well...thanks for the husband---

;)

(Cindy shouldn't have taken off her jacket, the t-shirt was tacky. Sorry Pitt--I am a stick in the damned mud of life, eh?)

[kath]

226. Tacky?!

The woman's son is DEAD. A wasted life for the NeoCon agenda.
As David Letterman said to O'Reilly, unless you've been through the same thing...

Oh, screw it, it's probably a waste of time trying to talk to you.

Sheesh.

[Thtwudbeme]

241. Well, I feel like it's a complete waste of time trying to explain

appropriate dress to grownups. How 'bout them cookies?

And furthermore, I think the Republican woman, and those people on airplanes should have been asked to leave to.

I am sick to damned death of "I didn't like the t-shirt" equating to "I don't support Cindy."

Ridiculous.

[kath]

251. Oh, I forgot. "appropriate dress" is more important than the First

Amendment.

Oh, and some of the people kicked off planes had what could arguably be called obscenities on their shirts. Cindy's shirt was in NO way obscene.

[timtom]

263. And I suppose

those participants in the Boston Tea Party were remiss for having donned inappropriate garb by disguising themselves as "Indians", as well.

Liberty is NOT a fashion statement!

[RagingInMiami]

319. When it comes to love and war

The dress code goes out the window

[0007]

231. You've had no one fooled and still haven't!

[Thtwudbeme]

238. Yeah yeah....same to you there Bond.

I haven't seen your name in awhile--good to see you again!

[0007]

240. Same here sweets!

:hi:

[Thtwudbeme]

243. *Smooch*

:hi:

[laylah]

245. Even though it

wasn't a deliberate action? The woman was hot, had worn the same shirt all day, etc. As Cindy stated to Randi, had she been planning anything, it would have happened AFTER the STFU had started!\

Jenn

[Laurab]

285. Actually I thought the outfit matched well

and if one hadn't been LOOKING for something to kick her out for, she wouldn't have been thrown out. It was color-coordinated and everything - did they examine EVERYONE'S dress at the SOTU? Somehow I don't think so.

[Junkdrawer]

236. Trolls...Professional Disruptors...IMPOSSIBLE...

It is simply beyond belief that paid agents would EVER sully their intellectual integrity to plant discontent here at DU.

The very idea...

[dchill]

248. The idea that they would have any interest...

in our drivel is utterly preposterous. They have the power, and they are busy with important issues - like poisoning Justice Stevens' creme brûlée. Please stop trying to aggrandize us, we are not even real. (Chris Matthews - Real Americans are those who make $50,000 and more.)

[Nikki Stone 1]

2. Me, too, Will

Her arrest brought attention to our dying soldiers and to the debacle that is Iraq.

[Suich]

4. I'm 100% behind her. n/t

[tatertop]

5. thank you for saying that

[Obamarama]

6. Frankly, I'm with you Will, but....

That's why they call it DEMOCRATIC Underground I guess. Everyone is entitled to their feelings, beliefs. I may not think she's senator material as some have proffered here on DU, but I admire her greatly for her tenacity and for inspiring me to remain resolute in voicing my own dissent.

[0rganism]

7. They're all trolls Will, pay it no heed

;)

[xultar]

8. She can do great things. But sometimes she doesn't do them so well.

I am for her cause but I don't agree with everything she says or does.

If that makes me a troll then so beit.

[jackster]

66. so she's human.....

as Will said whom do you agree with 100% and 100% of the time.

Supporting her last night should have been a no brainer I believe. She was ARRESTED for WEARING A TSHIRT!

Can you say - Sieg Heil Bushitler!

[TInCanCommunications]

292. Exactlly She's Human ... Why do we need her to be a celebrity activist???

nt

[Dancindays]

83. well put

I agree

[formernaderite]

111. I'm glad she does everything naturally without forethought

to "how it will play in the media". I think that is what a Senator should be, an honest broker. As soon as there is a Cindy for Senate website...I will part with my funds. Her election is THAT important, she has given a voice and face to the REAL democratic party.

[Stephanie]

9. oh please

We have a right to our opinions, unless our opinion is that it was a dumb stunt?

[Balbus]

74. I half way agree with you...

It was a stunt, no doubt. But I think a very effective one.

[Stephanie]

79. I think it would have been more effective to sit there in quiet dignity

through the whole speech, and let the cameras catch her reactions. It was the only chance she's had to be right in Bush's face. I wish she hadn't blown it.

[Balbus]

87. You might be right and it would have been interesting to see...

that scenario play out. Which is exactly what I thought the plan was going to be when I first heard she was going to be in attendance. But with the way it did play out, when the speech was over no one was talking about what was said during the speech - at least from what I heard. It was all Cindy from what I perceived.

But I admit, to see her reactions during the speech would have been great also.

[Broke In Jersey]

148. Imagine......

the cameras all panning over to cindy whenever * mentioned anything about iraq. Now, THAT, would have been nice to see!!!!!!!!!!

[Fovea]

151. With our current state of journalism

I wonder if the camera would have touched her at all.

Even if she had worn a screaming danger orange bikini with the words 'Buck Fush' on it, what was done to her was plainly unconstitutional, and morally wrong.

I think the DC police are going to get hurt over this. I think the FlubDubya is going to sink like a mastodon in the tar pit over this.

And no, I don't agree 100% with everything Cindy says, but I will take one hell of a beating in order for her to say it.


That used to be the essential difference between America and nations that were not free.

[Stephanie]

171. It was wrong to arrest her but they had the right to throw her out

She broke the rules, just like the Republican wife did. I've sat in that gallery - they watch you like a hawk. Let alone in these circumstances.

[balzac]

305. They were wrong to throw her out and wrong to arrest her.

The republican wife was a plant meant to retractively establish justification by appearing even handed. How can so many people be so naive to think this republican woman's t-shirt was just a coincidence? Don't you see? These people are professional liars. Lying is their religion. They eat, sleep and breath lies. Simple lies, complex lies, subtle lies, obvious lies, big lies, tremendous lies. This was a lie subtle enough to fool my dad and a lot of DU members.

[Stephanie]

330. if you'll note my post right below yours, I already said I was wrong

they had no right to throw her out

[balzac]

366. You know you were wrong, but you don't know why.

You said: "Ok, I'm wrong - there is no rule against t-shirts"

You're wrong for another reason that has nothing to do with rules against t-shirts. You're wrong because you seem to think that if they DID have a rule against t-shirts, you wouldn't have been wrong.

[Stephanie]

215. Ok, I'm wrong - there is no rule against t-shirts

As they have just admitted. And here are the rules >

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x297980

[Donailin]

255. If I were Cindy, last night, I would not have worn that shirt

that had the number of dead soldiers. I would have worn a shirt with the face of my dead son graphed onto it. And some yellow ribbon pins as well. And an american flag pin.

Would they have thrown her out then? Is a picture of her own flesh and blood a protest statement? Think of how the the newsmedia would have reported it. "Ms. Sheehan was arrested at the capitol/SOTU for wearing a shirt with her sons' image on it. She also had a yellow ribbon on her jacket"

think about it. That would have embarrassed the GOP beyond measure. I think it would have been a scandal on Bush; who can say anything to that? "Oh she shouldn't be wearing a shirt with her sons face." "This is not the time to be wearing that shirt -- it's the Presidents State of the Union Address where personal opinions are not allowed" or some such nonsense. Really, there is NOTHING anyone could have said that wouldn't make them sound like cold-hearted bastards.

Damn, I wish I was able to talk to her before last night.

[hunter]

156. It's likely they wouldn't have shown her for more than an instant.

I don't think she blew it.

These last couple of years I've seen a lot of interesting things that never made it to television.

It seems to me we have a state controlled media.

[klook]

201. Exactly

She had to act out to get the message heard. And I'm damn glad she did.

[frankly_fedup2]

216. So you have been able to go to the SOTU speeches for several

years? Do you live in D.C. or near it? I never knew how anyone was able to get tickets for the upper level? What were some things that never made T.V.

[hunter]

261. Why yes, I am questioning the integrity of our government and our press...

... thank you.

Were you, by any chance a member of the cast or crew of this hideous little SOTU production?

Terrible, terrible, how Cindy must not have read the script. Was Cindy even in the script, or did someone sneak her onto the set?

I'm sick of the "sacred" halls of Congress. It's like a church with a pedophile priest. At some point the people've got to rise up and throw the molester out, for he profanes the church more than any righteously angry woman wearing a teeshirt ever could.

George W. Bush, by his actions, killed her son. Has he no shame?

[frankly_fedup2]

327. I'm confused by your response to my questions. I was in no way

trying to offend you are be sarcastic. I was honestly wondering how many you had been present for and were they all just Bush? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your response???

[Little Star]

266. .

[RagingInMiami]

320. Quiet dignity

Didn't work for Gore. It didn't work for Kerry. And it sure as hell isn't going to work for Cindy Sheehan.

The fact that she got dragged out of the House of Representatives for wearing a t-shirt on the night the shrub endlessly repeated the word "freedom" and one day after Alito got confirmed, shone a spotlight on Bush's "free America" that quiet dignity would have missed.

[grrl62]

322. yeah, but then

the media would have said something like "Cindy, at a loss for words." "Cindy - not so big now, doesn't know what to say." "glad Cindy finally came to senses and shut her mouth."

trust me, they'll always slant it in a negative way. ALWAYS. the media are corporate whores.

[grace0418]

82. Please read her account before you judge.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/020106Z.shtml#


Doesn't sound like a dumb stunt to me. Unless you also think she's a liar.

[Stephanie]

86. of course I don't think she's a liar but I think it was kind of dumb

Did she really believe they were going to let her sit there in that shirt?

I wore the shirt to make a statement. The press knew I was going to be there, and I thought every once in awhile they would show me, and I would have the shirt on. I did not wear it to be disruptive, or I would have unzipped my jacket during George's speech. If I had any idea what happens to people who wear shirts that make the neocons uncomfortable, that I would be arrested ... maybe I would have, but I didn't.

[JerseygirlCT]

184. Thank you for that link

Trying to figure out what exactly happened has been nearly impossible if you use the MSM. Just "Cindy Sheehan arrested for disprupting the SOTU". Or rumors of unfurling a big banner.

Look, if we were talking about a big banner, I'd think she did a pretty stupid thing, guaranteed to get her hauled out of there. But a T-SHIRT? That's just beyond the pale.

I hope someone else takes up her cause for her on this. Someone with clout. She shouldn't have to fight this alone, to be marginalized as just that "crazy woman who hates Bush". She needs some powerful people to scream about this offense to her rights -- to all of our rights.

[ScreamingMeemie]

325. You have a right to your opinion...I just hope I never see these people

posting, "God, why isn't anyone standing up to this?" Because that would be hypocritical...wouldn't it?

[Cha]

10. Recommended..

Well said.

[SharonRB]

11. I'm behind her, Will

There is absolutely no excuse for what was done to her last night -- other than the fact that they're acting like the Gestapo, that is.

[leftstreet]

12. The "people" aren't afraid of war protesters

Just overpaid, lazy Democratic strategists.

Check out this "sign-on" screen story on AOL.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060131204009990009&ncid=NWS00010000000001

T-Shirts Get Women Kicked Out of State of the Union
Cindy Sheehan Arrested; Wife of GOP Congressman Asked to Leave

(story follows)

Poll

What do you think about Cindy Sheehan's arrest?
I agree with it 58%
I oppose it 37%
Not sure 5%

Should Beverly Young have been kicked out for her pro-troop t-shirt?
No 51%
Yes 41%
Not sure 8%
Total Votes: 152,526

[helderheid]

57. JESUS, well if that doesn't just spell it out!!

:puke:

Thanks for the link!

[blm]

13. Those who stick their necks out the most are targeted the most it seems.

Did ya miss the essay where John McCain is better to lead a new party than John Kerry?

It's crazy here these days.

I wish she had done it a bit differently but support her doing it 100%.

[endarkenment]

14. It is just a few who seem to have an allergy over Cindy.

And it is generally the same bunch. We just got over the "Shame of Meeting Chavez" attacks last week.

I think there are two basic groups of attackers: the usual trolls and suspects, and people who somehow have take ownership in their minds of the Cindy Icon and resent anything she does that is outside of what they view as Proper Behavior. The latter group always seem to accompany those who have become iconic, it is part of the cost of becoming a legend.

[uppityperson]

15. Well put. Quit projecting people, accept and support what she is now

Stop this "run Cindy for president" stuff. Let her be 1 person asking "why" and back her on this. She doesn't have to be the knight in shining armor coming to save the world. Let her be herself, and give her support for what she actually is doing and what happens to her for asking "why".

[xiamiam]

16. same people will be kissing her ass when we finally get out of this war...

i loathe sheep...no matter which party they come from...i dont give a shit about the people who bash her because you are right..no one has done more to put this in our faces than this one grieving woman...and shes one of the few people from Amerikka that the world respects....she is a catalyst...i dont think she had a clue what she would be up against and how she would be degraded ....all because she questions the noble cause of this war?...i worry for her...i worry because even people here would rather pick her apart and believe the lies rather than try to find the truth...i am amazed as are you...

[William769]

17. I think it wonderful what she is doing for her beloved son.

She stays on that message I will always support her.

[Obamarama]

34. Hi William796

Glad to hear everything is running more smoothly at home!

[William769]

159. Thanks.

[Jeanette in FL]

18. It was distressing reading all the negative posts last night

Based on the media reports they were getting. The same media that misrepresents Democrats all the time. As the night went on, we saw how the story was changing.

It went from Cindy being arrested for unfurling an anti-war banner, to causing a disturbance to wearing a t-shirt underneath her jacket.

Thanks for writing that William, it needed to be said.

[xxqqqzme]

19. I could not agree more.

I don't know what I was expecting when I arrived in Crawford last August. I was so impressed w/ Cindy's quiet presence. She is an amazing woman. Her mission/question has never changed or been diluted. Very few people w/ a wave of media attention will stay on message. I respect her greatly.

[Coexist]

20. actually, there were hardly any -

so that is a good thing.

[BurtWorm]

22. I'm surprised that anyone thinks "DU" has a monolithic position.

Especially someone who's been here as long as you have. ;)

[RazzleDazzle]

209. Actually, there are a number of things that people who consider

themselves "Democrats" or assorted other left-leaning folks OUGHT to have a fairly monolithic position on. Standing up for and defending protesters (which she wasn't even actively , IMO. You can't get more basic than the First Amendment.

[BurtWorm]

214. One would really like to think that.

I thought all DUers/lefties/Democrats were pro-union, pro-immigration, anti-Lieberman, anti-war on terror.

WRONG!

[MADem]

23. Some people are uncomfortable with some of her statements, is all

The Hugo Chavez appearance, and some of the war criminal remarks....though I tend to agree with much of what she says. I think she shouldn't waste her time trying to challenge Diane Feinstein, another woman I admire, though I don't agree with everything she says either...and that is another issue that divides some people.

Here's my take: she paid for her right to speak out with the blood of her child. And if folks don't like what she is saying, they can reach out their plump, Cheetos-stained hand, grasp the remote firmly, and change the channel.

And hey, maybe a few of 'em ARE trolls, but if they are, screw 'em--can you imagine having a life so empty that you have to pester people of opposing views with childish rants? Talk about the personification of 'pathetic!'

[question everything]

130. Will you say the same thing for bereaved parents who support the war?

and Bush? That they "paid for her right to speak out with the blood of her child?"

Just curious.

[MADem]

172. I most certainly would

I heard that woman who stood up with her husband and the wife of her dead son on the TV this morning, and I thought she was clueless, obtuse, and foolish, but I defend her right to spout pro-war propaganda, if that is what makes her happy. I rather doubt her "pride" will warm her heart for very long, as the birthdays and holidays that pass remind her of the loss of her child.

Why would you think that I consider the First Amendment the perogative of only one sector of the political spectrum?

Just curious.

[Tom Joad]

24. Cindy is a hero.

It sure as hell wasn't John Kerry or Hillary Clinton who is demanding the troops out now. With "allies" like that the US troops will be there another 10 years.

Still, I think it would be helpful, Will, if you mentioned what way specifically the DU community is not supporting Cindy. I think i have seen examples, but what ways do you have in mind?

[Dawgs]

25. Whatever...

I'll think for myself, Thanks.

[bananas]

26. I'm not surprised

I remember when she was in Crawford, someone suggested that we ban tie-dye t-shirts from the rallies and vigils. T-shirts scare the hell out of people.

[bigtree]

27. she's everymom

to me

[xultar]

28. If that is the case then everyone should supprt Joementum.

[endarkenment]

38. I'm sure you are making a cogent point there

but obviously I am too stupid to understand it. Please explain.

[meganmonkey]

29. The problem with Cindy, Will

is that she speaks the truth, she is courageous, and she reminds people how much more they could/should be doing to stop this war and expose the criminals in the White House.

I stand with Cindy, all the way. I got arrested with her once, and I hope I get a chance to do it again.

:patriot:

[derby378]

30. Boggles my mind, too

Everyone's gonna have an opinion one way or another. It happens, especially in a community of 80,000+.

But to say that we can do without Cindy? Sacreliege.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

31. Why are elected officials with purple fingers deemed appropriate?

While ordinary citizens wearing a shirt with factual numbers deemed inappropriate?

I don't agree with everything she does and says. However, the SOTU was used for the theocratic neocon political stunt (waving purple fingers in the air) then the arrest of an ordinary citizen who pulled a similar stunt is an outrage.

[endarkenment]

42. Why are shirts with corporate logos allowed? nt.

[sandnsea]

45. Got pics?

That's definitely a political message, as far as I'm concerned.

[endarkenment]

50. No, but I'm sure that they are not tossing folks out for the usual logo'd

clothing.

obviously it was the particular logo on Cindy's shirt that did it, and that would be a violation of the 1st amendment.

[sandnsea]

115. If you don't know it

don't say it. I've never seen a corporate logo at the SOTU. I thought you knew otherwise, for a fact.

[TygrBright]

178. What, NEVER?

No Vuitton handbags? No Gucci belt buckles? No Ferragamo shoes?

Believe me, you've seen corporate logos there. We're just so conditioned to their ubiquity that we don't actually register them, as such, anymore.

sadly,
Bright

[sandnsea]

195. Comes from being the working class

Wouldn't know a Ferragamo from a Ked, swear to god.

[TygrBright]

220. Heheh... lucky you!

They're not exactly attractive. However, the point is, if people can advertise their appreciation of corporate greed, why can't they advertise their acknowledgement of war dead?

If apparel with logos, brands, slogans, etc., is going to be considered "non-U" at State Functions, the standard SHOULD be applied equally.

C'mon, wouldn't you just LOOOOOOVE to see some Congressman's esposa deprived of her Vuitton or asked to leave because of her shoes?

wishfully,
Bright

[endarkenment]

180. It is called speculation.

At the moment it is not banned DU speech. The rules for the capitol building and gallery are written down. I rather doubt that they are anything other than selectively enforced and despite the fact that I don't have any pictures handy I am willing to bet that at least one individual has sat in the gallery with a corporate logo on his or her garment.

[sandnsea]

197. Point being

You can't expect a counter-attack to be launched on a bet, which is what I thought you were suggesting. Speculative idle chatter is something else entirely, you're right on that.

[endarkenment]

208. "Speculative idle chatter"

Wow. Ok so take a look at the front page of DU right now. All charges are being dropped as it seems that a certain Cindy Sheehan violated neither laws nor rules. Speculation is not the same as idle chatter. Thanks for the gratuitous insult though, it was much appreciated.

[sandnsea]

212. What???

You were equating logos to political statements and wanting people to accept your assumption that people wore logos to the SOTU. You said you were just speculating. You either were trying to make a serious point or engaging in idle chatter. I engage in idle chatter all the time, about half the time I'm at DU actually. There's nothing insulting about that.

And I'm more pissed that the charges against her were dropped, as if that makes what they did okay.

[endarkenment]

217. I merely pointed out

that quite a lot of clothing has printed words on it and it was highly unlikely that the Capitol police were tossing everyone out with clothing that had words on it. You then basically demanded photographic proof and told me to shut up if I didn't have it. When I agreed that I had no photos, that I was speculating that it was highly likely that this was an arbitrary application of a rule, you declared that 'idle chatter' as if everything that is speculative can be dismissed as 'idle chatter'. Sheesh, we are on the same side here. Lighten up.

Sorry if I was right: tossing out Cindy for the words on her shirt was not based on any violation of any law or rule. She did nothing that 50,000 other gallery visitors with corporate logos on their butts and chests haven't done. And no I don't have photographs of those 50,000 logo'd visitors: its speculation.

[sandnsea]

225. Still speculation

I've never seen a logo or identifiable brand on anybody on the floor of the Senate or House, or at the SOTU. Just haven't. You can speculate all you want and it's a fun speculation, but it's weak if one were to try to present it as a case to support Cindy's right to have stuff printed on a shirt.

And them dropping charges had absolutely nothing to do with your speculation that others have logos on their clothes. But if that makes you think you won an argument, put a crown on your head and a rose in your teeth and have a party.

[endarkenment]

229. I suggest you walk around a mall or crowded street

and get back to me about the prevalence of logo'd garments.

The capitol gallery is open to the public and the rules are not different, other than you need a ticket, for special events such as the SOTU. 50,000 logo'd butts and chests is a conservative estimate.

The possibility that not a single other person in the gallery that night had any words visible on any piece of clothing that they were wearing is vanishingly small.

[sandnsea]

232. What in the friggin' world???

People do not wear their mall clothes to the SOTU. Do you have dress clothes??? None of mine have identifiable brands on them. Nobody is wearing GAP to the SOTU.

Nice chatting with you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

346. If that stupid looking polo player on a breast pocket counts...

I've seen corporate logos on the floor of the House. ;)

[StClone]

33. Quite a syndrome isn't it.

Some level of dislike is shown toward all our heroes after a honeymoon. I can't give an example of a personality that works into DU reverence that isn't then sullied and turned gray of ignominy in the eyes of many here. I don't understand it.

[BuyingThyme]

37. Bill O'Reilly registered a couple accounts this weekend.

[Beaverhausen]

39. Why don't we start a Cindy Sheehan forum

so we can follow her every move?

Honestly, she does do some things sometimes that aren't really so smart. It doesn't mean I don't support what she is saying or doing.

But she has become, right or wrong, a mouthpiece for the anti-war movement and should choose her words and actions with care.

Go ahead, call me a troll.

[rucky]

59. for example?

[FlaGranny]

61. Why should she

choose her words with care? Her words are her own. She speaks for herself. She is under no obligation to speak words another thinks are more appropriate.

[confludemocrat]

68. calling her a "mouthpiece" doesn't mean you don't support her? OK, Thnx

for those and other ("she does do some things sometimes that aren't really so smart"-care to elaborate?) supportive words (I guess, despite the snide and cheap little innuendos). maybe she should use Kerry's or Dean's or Ben Nelson's advisors. as to your last line, if the shoe fits, wear it.

[Karenina]

90. so we can follow her every move?

Sitting on a corpulent posterior behind the safety of a monitor, just waiting to type in every judgement... SKINNER! I think we have a WINNER here!

Forgive my snarling. I know you're not a troll. However, I sincerely ask you to THINK critically about your "proposal." Why are you so concerned about what someone who is taking a stand "shoulda, coulda" cluttering your brain capacity with what YOU "woulda?" Why can't you SUPPORT what you DO AGREE WITH and MAKE YOUR OWN PUBLIC STAND on that with which you don't? Why are YOU "right or wrong," NOT a mouthpiece for the anti-war movement???

Can you field as many reasons as the repuke youth can spout for not serving a conflict they support? Politics is no longer a "spectator sport." Our survival as a species is hanging in the balance.

[merwin]

40. Well said, Will!

The same thing happens to all of our representatives, sadly...

[MuseRider]

41. I loves me women with guts!

She is one fine, strong woman. I can't wait to see her again. No one has inspired me so in such a long time. I would also add DeeDee and Ann Wright.

[sandnsea]

43. I support her

And if *I* support her, then I'd really have to question the agenda of those who don't. Since the complete facts of what happened have come out, I haven't seen anybody not support her completely. It was only before all the facts were available that anybody, including me, expressed any sense that she should have known what would happen to her.

[stepnw1f]

44. I Don't Get It Either

I agree that it is shameful, because she is dedicated to stopping this war much more than most. Some feel her tactics are just that... then again, some are very cynical and just can't fathom that a person would truly make a sacrifice without demanding some reward.

The reward in her case, would be an end to the war. I believe this to be true and have not seen evidence to make me change my mind.

[FearofFutility]

46. I agree with you

and support her 100%.

[Nightjock]

47. I am behind Cindy 100% BUT....

If we all walked in a Nazi goose step we would be like the Republicans who are driving this country into the toilet.

Do I think our fellow Dems criticizing Cindy are wrong? Absolutely!

But open discussion and disagreement is what the old America was all about.

[htuttle]

48. Cindy's courage points out the cowardice of the rest of us

Some people don't like that.

[ChickMagic]

49. I'm behind her 100%

I spent each weekend at Camp Casey in Crawford. Early on, I got to have nice conversations with Cindy and her sister.
When the camp got bigger, I didn't have as much opportunity, I love her like a sister and emailed her to tell her so.
I cried, or rather sobbed, when the gestapo roughed her up. She is one of the most remarkable people I have had the pleasure to meet.

[helderheid]

51. I completely agree. I cannot fathom how anyone here isn't behind her 100%

[No Exit]

52. Well, don't look at ME.

I am behind her 100%.

[jane_pippin]

53. Thank you for saying that.

She is one person exercising her rights and using her life to bring about change.

I don't agree with anybody 100% of the time, nor do I expect to. But, that doesn't mean I won't 100%support her right to speak her mind and protest this administration.

She's just one person.

Just like each of us.

That's why I like her.

[Hubert Flottz]

54. I can't believe that anyone here would badmouth Cindy either.

Freak Republic yes, but not here. If my son was dead because of George Bush, I wouldn't be as calm and cool, as this lady has been. THINK of how YOU would feel, if your child that you had dedicated the best part of your life to raising, died for a pack of neocon lies.

[qanda]

55. I'm with David Letterman on this one

From his interview with O'Reilly:

"How can you possibly take exception with the motivation and the position of someone like Cindy Sheehan?"

"See, I’m very concerned about people like yourself who don’t have nothing but endless sympathy for a woman like Cindy Sheehan. Honest to Christ.”

[No Exit]

56. Cindy is fighting the fascists THERE so we don't have to fight them HERE.

Of course, we all know WE should be fighting them here, too.

Some on here are.

Others are sitting at keyboards at least feeling solidarity with persons like Cindy who are out in the field, fighting.

If we don't back her, eventually each one of us will be personally attacked on our own home turf, just the way she was personally attacked (by having her son lied to by recruiters and then needlessly killed in a fraudulent war.)

[Cults4Bush]

58. Dude! She had like 98% support here last night! Was the best since

the beggining of August that Ive seen DU put out for Cindy and I dare say that people seemed more united last night over Cindy here than during the filibuster fight this last week or so.

I mean even the worst OP/thread about her turned into a Cindy support fest immediately.

Some people still think she is a anti-semite, bush plant, and in general a hater of all Dems and who is pimping her sons death because she loves the limelight. Fuck them man, even if they are old timers they are still fuckin' idiots who dont have a clue on how to support peace beyond the limitation of their egos and own smug self congratulatory deluded posts.

I put them on ignore and laugh when I see others arguing with these hopeless know it alls and who "know whats best", just like bushco does (snark).

Seriously I was as proud of DU last night as I was in the first two weeks of Camp Casey. Even some of the blind faithing all Dems at any cost crowd reluctantly gave their support.

Good support from most of DU is all we can ever hope for.

[AZBlue]

60. I haven't seen much against her at all on DU.

It seems to be 99%+ in support of her, no matter what she says or does. Someone like me who does criticize her actions or words from time to time usually doesn't post on these threads (I had to think twice, no make that thrice, before I posted this one!) because we know we'll be shot down in flames, propped back up again, and shot down in flames a second time. A thread the other day asked what topic we were afraid to discuss on DU and I posted "Cindy Sheehan." Most people here want her canonized.

And, I'm not even criticizing her - I'm in marketing/PR so her "mistakes" (and they are IMHO only) stand out to me immediately and I react. I wish I could just help her to re-think or re-phrase things sometimes to get more effect and to win more support. Sometimes she stands in her own way and that's because she, as you said, isn't a pro, and that's what I point out here in the hopes of getting through somehow. She is tied to the Dem Party in the media and the mind of the general public and her actions can impact the party and that's why I say anything at all - otherwise it would be none of my business. I support what she stands for and what she's done and would like to see her be even more effective than she's been.

She's got a lot of strength and guts and I applaud that and in general I am a supporter. But when she makes a misstep, I'll point that out too - just like I would with anyone else.

OK, I'll go put on my flame-retardant coat and matching boots now.

62. She can do whatever she wants

but it is a free world to have our opinions of what she does.

I think it was incredibly naive for her to wear a tee-shirt with an emblazoned political message into the State of the Union address and be clueless as to how she would be treated. They are just looking for the tiniest thing to remove her and she gave it to them with a bow on top. If that were me, I would either realize I was going to be removed by wearing the tee-shirt, or go to great lengths to make sure they couldn't remove me for my behavior and stay 2 steps ahead of them.

[kath]

234. So we're all supposed to "realize I was going to be removed by wearing

the the tee-shirt" - in other words just blandly admit that we're living in a fascist state, like it's no big deal?!?!?!?
Are you really OK with the current crackdown on dissent??

Well, many of us are emphatically NOT okay with it.
As for me, it gives me chills. :scared: :scared: :scared:

258. I think it is wrong to crack down on dissent

as this administration does. However the State of the Union is a place that is public theatre, and they don't allow protestors inside during the speech, or any kind of disruption.

[MrBenchley]

63. Back her in what?

The important fact about "Cindy Sheehan" was never Cindy or even her son. The important fact was that pResident Duh, whose popular appeal was entirely based on the spurious claims that he was as "brave" and "manly," suddenly revealed himself to be utterly terrified of a middle aged lady of the sort Americans see every day at supermarkets and laundromats. It was a moment very much akin to the end of The Dead Zone, when Martin Sheen's blowhard of a candidate snatches up a toddler to shield himself from an assassin—even more so.

If he had come out and bullshitted with her when she first showed up, there would have been no story, no matter what Bush did or didn't say, and the story would have been over. But Chimpy's very public cowardice made it a lasting story that really does define his presidency.

And as an added bonus, it brought into the spotlight the Chimp supporter who trotted out to shoot his gun in the air in response, and the other one who drove a pick-up truck over a row of crosses honoring the dead.

Do I have sympathy for her and want the war to end soon and honorably for Cindy's son and the other sons and daughters who have served? Of course.

Does Cindy say stuff that's full of crackers? Yeah.

Do I think she ought to be in the Senate? Not even if I lost a bet.

[Hubert Flottz]

128. I agree with you on this one...she did expose the coward!

And the man has been nothing but a coward ALL of his life! Cindy showed the country that the big tough Texan was a powder puff poontang! It's why she pisses the GOPers off so much, and in so many ways. This brave, honest, lady makes the GOPers face reality and they all live their entire lives in a make believe world. They believe Bush's lies and they lie to themselves. This lady rubbed the truth in their faces and even though she gave the greatest gift to her country, that an American mother has to give, the GOPers still ALL, HATE her! It not only exposes Bush's cowardice, it exposes the republican party's real position, on their family values and their make believe MORALITY! Bush could not show Cindy a "Noble Cause," because there is none in Iraq and he knows it, so Karl told him to hide.

Cindy shows the WORLD what total hypocrites, those Do-Gooder republicans driving round with their "I Support The Troops" ribbons are. The republicans might "Support The Troops," but they ALWAYS, want the troops to be your kids, not theirs. And when YOUR KIDS come home in a box, they want you just to stay out of sight, shut up and go away! If you can't show respect and tolerance for the folks whose families are being torn apart by YOUR war Mr. and Mrs. Repig, then you are just as bad or worse, than any thugs, that our sons and now even our daughters, are sent to fight.

Stinking Bags of Trash, instead of the noble Elephant, should be the GOP mascot!

[MrBenchley]

169. And the GOP's attempts to "swift boat" her

also revealed what an empty vicious bunch they are.

[wisteria]

64. Why did she were the shirt at all. It didn't even seen like proper attire

for the event. It does appear that she was attempting to draw attention to herself and the cause. I think this whole thing could have been handled better. I believe in what she is doing, but she is coming off as being ridiculous.IMO, the public is turned off with these stunts. Especially the ones that have been done before. Why not wait and comment after the speech to reporters? If she is running for office, she is going to need a lot of polishing so that her message is accepted as compelling to most people.

Now, as far as the arrest. I think this was over done and wasn't necessary. It may well have been an orchestrated attempt to make her look bad.

Again, I support Cindy's cause. I however, question some of her most recent conduct. She needs to find a better way to get her compelling message out.

[Cults4Bush]

71. You need to research the situation in its entirety....

specifically how and when she got the ticket and what she tried to do with it. Your position is flawed due to the lack of this information.

[helderheid]

73. If she was trying to draw attention, why not wait to take her coat off

after * was there? Wouldn't that have been more logical? There are a couple threads telling what happened. She didn't even plan on going and had given her ticket away but felt obligated at THE LAST MINUTE. All of THAT is beside the point. SHE DIDN'T BREAK ANY LAW AND WAS ARRESTED - THAT should concern EVERYONE.

:rant:

[Lars39]

88. An arrested Gold Star mother with the numbers of dead troops on

her chest did get her compelling message out.

[jane_pippin]

106. I'm part of the public. I'm not turned off by her exercising her rights .

I even kinda like it. And, since when is there a dress code required for those who want to exercise their rights? I understand that it's not exactly "proper" to show up to a formal event in less than formal clothing, but you know, I don't see the point in getting hung up on that detail in this situation. If she had the message screen printed on a business suit, would you be ok with it then? I don't find it all that proper to let 2000+ kids die for nothing, and that's more important than a cotton/poly blend vs. a classy tweed in my book.


"It may well have been an orchestrated attempt to make her look bad."

Ya think maybe?

I see your points, I know you support her cause, and I respect your right to your opinion. I have to differ with you though. My opinion is that I don't care what she's wearing, I don't care if I agree 100 % with what she says, and, (since I think it's safe to assume she'll be sticking with her message of bring them home, stop the killing, let's have some peace for a change), I don't care if she says it in plain english every day in a t-shirt in the public square with a thousand megaphones, or in a campaign, or camped out in crawford, or any place else. It's her right to do it, and if any one of us wanted to, it would be our right to do it too.

[kath]

237. "proper attire" - sheesh. All these "proper attire" folks sound to me

like the Church Lady or something. Gimme a break - and anyway, the woman hadn't even planned on attending the event. It was a spur-of-the-moment decision. She'd been wearing the same outfit all day, and unzipped her jacket because she was WARM.

[Cha]

273. It was most definetly the "proper attire"

for attending a chimp LIE FEST! She had the most proper attire of anyone there.

Even that repuke wife who wore a support the troops tee had proper attire because chimpy doesn't support the troops..if they did they would have made sure they had PROPER ARMOUR! And make sure they get their benefits after they survive that HELL HOLE!

[redwitch]

277. She needs polishing?

And what, like an agent and a PR team from Madison Avenue? Jesus.

[redwitch]

278. double post self delete

n/t

[KarenS]

65. K & R !!

Cindy is doing what she needs to do.

She has never claimed to be speaking for the Democratic Party, or the Anti-War movement or anyone else (that I've heard).

But I will tell you this, I support her in doing whatever it is she wants to do or say. She is one hell of a woman! I admire her courage and tenacity.

[jobycom]

67. "puts lie to this community's opinion of itself and its purpose."??

Pretty strong words. C'mon, the purpose of DU is to discuss what we think, to work out what we should do. You can't do that without all opinions being expressed. I don't know of anyone mocking her or belittling her pain or her sacrifice. Some people disagree with her strategy, and some even with her goals, and to say they should be ashamed for stating that disagreement is no different than telling someone they can't wear a teeshirt in front of the president.

Most of us are at DU so we can be heard, not told to shut up.

And for full disclosure, I'm a Cindy supporter, most of the time. I questioned her wisdom last night when the story was still saying she "unfurled a banner," but I never attacked or criticized her mission or her goals. So I'm not defending myself here. I'm defending the DUers who disagree with me. Ain't that America?

[shanti]

69. i think cindy is terrific

if only we had more like her :yourock: cindy!

[Left Is Write]

70. Can someone PLEASE tell me exactly what was "unlawful"

about her conduct?

Wearing the t-shirt was what? Against the dress code, perhaps? Potentially disruptive? Maybe.

But she didn't actually DO anything "unlawful", did she? She wasn't disrupting; wasn't she escorted out before the speech even began?

The local noon news is reporting that she is out of jail now, having been arrested and charged with unlawful conduct. The news story went on to describe her t-shirt, and that is all. The overall impression most viewers will be left with is that Cindy Sheehan did something terrible.

[im10ashus]

72. "It's damned shameful."

Well, this is a "democratic" message board. People are certainly entitled to their opinions. Would you rather everyone agree on everything all the time? Even with regards to Ms. Sheehan? That being said, I think it was a shame they dragged her out of there last night. And although I think her supposed run as a Senator is not a good idea, she has done a helluva job getting out her message this past year. She is an amazing lady.

[jarab]

75. 100 percent backing?

.... when we have less support for other issues.
100 percent is really asking a lot, isn't it?

We certainly do NOT have 100% "against the war". How would it be possible to have that # for this anti-war figure?
I think she's an enigma. She is a tortured soul, it would appear. She has brought some opposition with some ill-timed comments (Katrina). She's a one-issue person, and some might question whether she even cares about other progressive issues, like who's gonna be elected. She seems to "hate" * more than she "loves" anything else. She appears to have been scorned by his conduct toward her.

I have my own questions about her intentions, her stability, or her political value beyond the obvious.
I'm really concerned for her mental state. Garner your majority support, but it'll never be 100% long as I'm here - and lacking answers to my own doubts and questions.

mho

...O...

[Just Me]

76. I love her.

:loveya:

[seabeyond]

77. is this bashing. when asked who does cindy speak for

"she speaks for herself. that is the power of the woman
Edited on Wed Feb-01-06 05:19 PM by seabeyond

she clearly, articulately and passionately speaks for herself, and thru extention her son. though she really cant do that. no i hold to she speaks for herself. i honor that. respect that. i listened to her comments this morning. she was NOT speaking for the democratic party. she was speaking of her experience. how she felt. and what she sees happening in her world. we ..... respect and value and hear what she says. we too are living in this world. we are one in this. that does include repugs..... whether they chose to see or not. it is not partisan that she speaks. she is speaking out against the war. out against her rights being violated.

and that is good enough for me to stand behind, and by her side, in force.

but she is not speaking for the democratic party. that would hamper her first of all
and it isnt true secondly.

i dont believe she is democrat nor particularly likes the democratic party, though she will absolutely and should "use" the democratic party. she will just as brazenly hurt the party if it fits her fight. i can respect that. that is cool. i even understand.

we stand for her rights, as we stand for all rights, of all people in this nation"




is that bashing cindy. cause this si about as bad as it got. i support. i agree with her. i am impressed with her. i give her money. i thank her

and this is ...... bashing???

[madfloridian]

143. I don't think that is bashing.

If she doesn't try to hurt Democrats I respect, then I will be supportive of her. I think what you said is quite fair.

[Individualist]

78. DLC doesn't like Cindy or Michael Moore

I have tremendous admiration for both of them and had a picture of Cindy as my avatar for quite a while.

[seabeyond]

92. this is my point. that i have been trying to say, patiently. i like moore

i like sheehan. sheehan was the the street during her campaign. good woman. and what she has gone thru, no one wants to experience. created huge in crawford, in aug. supported in money and stayed caught up on board and spread the word

moore i love the man. good man. smart man. and i really thank him for what he did with 9/11. not to mention columbine. that was an important one for me because of my passion for children, adn not far from that event.

why cant they be respected for what they give, yet honestly say..... why would dlc be fans. moore and sheehan have absolutely no hesitation in hurting the dem party if it will meet their agenda. i am not mad at them for that. i still respect, like and admire. i still thank them. but they have no problem speaking for themselves. not the democratic party. they are not democrats. they both say they arent.

wouldnt you be wary.......

i mean, i dont know why i have to be beat up here, because of how i see it. so as you all ask whyyyyyyy i speak out. i am asking, why am i be attack adn called a basher?

[Individualist]

96. Where did I say anything about you, specifically?

What part of my post did you interpret to be an attack on you personally? And where in my post do I accuse you of being a basher?

[seabeyond]

110. i keep hearing about attacks on sheehan

i personally have not seen a whole lot harsher than mine. i was called big tent democrat, brownshirt and freeper last night, ah and other stuff.

i want to know what bashing we are labeling here. cause if my posts are considered bashing, i challenge. will starts a post about all the bashing. i want some example. cause it is stated if you are not 100%.... and i say, huh. group think. with me or agaisnt. clarification please

she doesnt speak for me, she speaks for herself. is that bashing?


help me here. who is being attacked on this thread. who is the bad people will talks of.

[SmokingJacket]

80. Thank you. I only wish there were more of her. nt

[SaveElmer]

81. Will...I wish people here would apply that same logic...

To Democratic Senators and Congressmen they do not agree with all the time...yet everytime someone votes against the current liberal orthodoxy, out come the long knives..

Fact is it is not last nights incident that bothers me, it is her statements regarding Bill Clinton and Iraqi sanctions,her cozying up to Hugo Chavez, and other statements that cost her her credibility with me.

[seabeyond]

95. fighting bush and go after clinton. that softened her argument.

but again.... hers to do.

and people say she is all our moms. that always makes me uncomfortable. i would ask, why wouldnt it you. to say she speaks for me. i dont do well with that.

she speaks for herself. that i respect

[question everything]

136. Well said. Thank you (nt)

[grace0418]

84. Amen Will, I feel like I've been taking crazy pills.

DU is the last place I expected to see Cindy vilified. Disagree if you must but the bile is really astounding.

[BIgJohn83]

85. A few things are for sure here.

Number One, she's a mother in pain, simply asking her government the question, "Why". Last night she was treated like a thug, a criminal. One could draw the similarity to the barbaric treatment of the Freedom Riders during the Civil Rights movement. Whether it was all a misunderstanding or not is not the point. She was incarcerated and another woman, wearing another T shirt, with another slogan, was not. It is up to Dems/Progs everywhere to make sure the truth about this event is told and re-told. Don't let the White House or the Media spin this one away.

[seabeyond]

98. and that is for sure

those are facts. yes

[guruoo]

89. It's quite frustrating for me, Will

because every time something like this 't-shirt protest' happens
I invariably end up spending the next month working damage control just
to hold onto the former Bush supporters that I had already worked
so long and hard to turn around.
:banghead:

[kalibex]

100. If they're *that* skittish...let 'em go. IMO. n/t

[guruoo]

113. Taking back the country means...

winning elections. It takes votes to win elections.

If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

[ClayZ]

91. Kudos To Cindy Sheehan. She is my hero!

What and EXAMPLE she is!

"Nothing is so contagious as an example.
We never do great good or great evil
without bringing about more of the same on the part of others.”




She an AMERICAN hero!

Buffalo Springfield

For What It's Worth
Stephen Stills, 1966


There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind

I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

[donco6]

93. So, Cindy is now a litmus test?

I don't get it. And I REALLY hate litmus tests. Those are for RW fundy Christian types, and I had enough of that already.

[Quixote1818]

107. Thank you

I back her but this thread is frankly a little radical for me.

[incapsulated]

183. Yes.

Cindy is the new litmus test and if you don't support her 100%, well, what are you really doing here, eh? What kind of DU'er are you, anyway? Thinking independently. Refusing to go along. Dissenting. Criticizing holy cows and whatnot. So very unseemly. I'm shocked, honestly. Maybe you would be happier elsewhere. Maybe you're a troll.

:eyes:

[thinkingwoman]

94. Will, I have a couple of questions

and I'm asking you, on this thread, because I greatly respect your opinion.

Before I ask them, let me say clearly that I support Cindy Sheehan. I agree with the poster up thread who reiterated David Letterman's questioning of O'Reilly saying how can anyone question her motives. I fully and completely support Cindy's right to demonstrate in any way she sees fit and I do not question her motives or her grief. I have never experienced the loss of a child, and hope I never do. I do not have grounds to judge her.

On the other hand, she does not speak for me. I am not the mother of a fallen soldier. I do not think Clinton was responsible for more Iraqi deaths than Bush. I have no use for Chavez. Regardless of those and other instances, however, I do support her right to speak up and out and on and on. She's a fellow American and we DO still have freedom of speech in this country as long as we exercise it.

That all being said, here are my questions:

1. When someone decides to protest/demonstrate/exercise their free speech rights in such a way that breaks a law, should they (or their supporters) be surprised if they are arrested? Isn't that an inherent risk of civil disobedience? Isn't that part of the package and the sacrifice that is made to highlight the unfairness or unconstitutionality of laws? Isn't that to be expected? Shouldn't threads of support be along the lines of making sure she has adequate legal representation and resources to fight the charges in court and see how far the issue can be pushed and how much change can be affected?

2. When the law is interpreted unevenly (such as Cindy being arrested and the wife of a Republican representative being removed without arrest--I'm taking the report at face value here for the sake of the argument, not endorsing one way or the other), shouldn't that be cause for celebration in a way? Honestly, if all that is true, that HELPS doesn't it? Rank and file Americans inherently detest special treatment.

3. Isn't there a difference between support and blind adherence or worship? Posters on DU criticize everyone and everything and especially each other. Why should Cindy Sheehan be off limits? I feel she has a LOT of support here. I also feel there are a lot of DUers who support Cindy's right to do and say whatever she wants but don't think that equates with agreeing with everything she says and does. I fall into that camp. And I don't see why there should be shame in that. I'm not judging her. I'm disagreeing with her.


edited to correct punctuation.

[Quixote1818]

112. Nicely Said nt

[donco6]

125. Great post. Thanks. eom

[The Straight Story]

97. She is fine, but as a public figure subject to criticism here on DU

When she does well, praise her. When she does things which seem counterproductive discuss it and hope she is able to see this and learn from it (and others here who may find themselves in such a spotlight someday may learn ahead of time how things play).

It is worth evaulating what things are accomplished and how they were. Examples would be the threads I have started on things like 'what have we stopped bush from doing since he took office' - there are some things. But not a lot. So we look at what went right, what we did, and examine what didn't and why (mainly because we have some dinos that need extiniction on the political planet).

She is doing her best and is at times poorly advised or just makes decisions which seem to counteract what it is she is trying to accomplish.

I support her just not how she does some things she does.

[guruoo]

119. Exactly

[Connie_Corleone]

99. I have yet to see anyone backed 100% by EVERYONE on this

board. There are all kinds of people here and I didn't agree with some of the things she's said lately, but I kept those thoughts to myself because many people here think she can do no wrong and will have a fit if you criticize anything she says. That doesn't mean I don't support her cause. I just don't agree with what she says and does sometimes.

If that makes me a troll for disagreeing sometimes, then so be it.

On edit: I usually look forward to your posts, but this one sucks. We're not goosesteppers here.

[madfloridian]

101. Will, Will, I do share your pain.

I know just how you feel. I have the same feelings when I am condemned for saying I will work with the Democratic Party to promote change. I mean this is Democratic site, right?

I guess it is sort of the same principal, Will. Herding cats.

However, we all have to make our own decisions on things.

Most of us do support Cindy, but she does not speak kindly of many Democrats I admire. So kind of tit for tat.

I think we should all work together to change things, but when I say that I am told the party is dead by so many...it is dead, it is dying, put it out of its misery. Guess who tells me that so often? The ones who have made Cindy their do no wrong hero.

That being said, I respect her very much. I don't see that it should define me as person, though.

[seabeyond]

and this is not bashing, or is it. i want a definition of bashing n/t

[madfloridian]

126. I don't think I am bashing, but I betcha I will be told that.

I just don't like being called names for supporting the Democratic Party.

[seabeyond]

129. i want someone to say if this is the bashing they are talking about

i want someone to tell me if i am bashing cindy sheehan. cause i think this is a bullshit thread. i keep hearing about the basher. ect...... i couldnt be more respectful to the woman, because i respect her, and i know it shows in my words. i am also honest about her position. which people are chosing (i think) to call it bashing

the feinstein thing. she changed vote before sheehan declaration. a thread says how many would prefer sheehan to feinstein. i said no

sheehan isnt a democrat. i prefer to have a democrat

and the poster says thank god she isnt a democrat

my response: we dont like democrats on a democratic board, and i am the bad guy

so i dont get it. i am asking what bashing is. of course your post isnt bashing. it is full of respect. you can easily hear it. i want the mob, to say if this is their definition of bashing

[madfloridian]

134. I understand what you mean.

:hi:

[thereismore]

102. Even the weasel Russert, bless him, said this about Cindy:

"she gave her son to this country", in defense of her right to speak. EVEN RUSSERT! What is your excuse? That you are a bubonic republican trolling asshole? Get out!

[seabeyond]

122. bubonic republican trolling asshole? .... show me the post

of this asshole.

who are you suggesting get out

[thereismore]

131. Any and all repug trolls. I did not mean any specific one. n/t

[madfloridian]

161. What is your standard for someone to be a "repug troll"? Just asking.

You sound as though if someone does not fall in line for every thing Cindy does, they are repug trolls. Could you give some indication of your criteria?

[thereismore]

227. That's very simple. Any repug troll will know he is one. n/t

[mod mom]

103. As a mother, not only do I stand with Cindy, I hold her in the highest

esteem.

[Quixote1818]

104. I back her but I am fine with people who don't

I thought Dems were supposed to celebrate dissent among the ranks? Thats what makes us better than the Right.

[question everything]

105. Where did you get the 100%

Some of us do not support here. We did when she was in Crawford but see her as a lost soul - at best - searching for new meaning in her life after losing her son and her marriage plus the usual midlife crisis that all of us went, are going, or will be going through.

She needs professional help. Her need to secure headlines - being arrested, running against Dianne Feinstein - are a desperate calls for help.

Those who love her should try to help her. Otherwise the ones who cheer her just exploit her, the way people were deformity used to be put in circus.


Jump, Cindy. Run Cindy. Shout Cindy.

Shame, shame, shame.

[Kingshakabobo]

120. Dr. Frist? Is that you?

Maybe Bush should have her committed to the loony bin for protesting the war. Maybe he should have us all committed for questioning his authority.

[EFerrari]

147. Do you always pathologize people you disagree with?

[question everything]

194. No. But, like Nader in 2000 she is draining important resources

In contrast to what many say, the Iraq war is only one issue of which we have to fight. And for most voters, issues close to their daily life: health care, education, jobs and retirement are more important than the war in Iraq. At least, as long as we do not have the draft.

I am afraid that we are going to lose many voters if the image of the Democratic party will coalesce to that of a crazy woman looking to be arrested sympathizing with fringe groups around the world and basically not knowing what she is talking about.

Yes, I know. Too many here would rather stick on very narrow issue and claim that, say Joe Lieberman should leave the party because he supports the war in Iraq. Never mind that it is up to his constituents whether he returns to the Senate or not, not to tunnel visioned DUers here who live on the opposite coast.

[EFerrari]

207. Do you also pathologize people you don't agree with?

[smartvoter]

269. What a twisted way to seek superiority over another person. nt

[merbex]

108. I'm with you Will

Great post!

[spuddonna]

109. Cindy's Importance...

Like WilliamPitt sez, how often do you agree with people all the time? Do you think that Martin Luther King Jr. was always embraced for his stance? Do you agree with his greater purpose? Did people demean him because "They didn't agree with him on his view on X..."

We need to look at the bigger picture. Whether or not the * admin had a direct hand in this (as in "Go git that lady out of the audience, Uncle Dick,she's scarin' me!"), Cindy's arrest has become another golden opportunity for the Bushites to "re-educate" Americans.

How many times have we heard O'Lielly and others comment that "People need to be careful what they say..." And now we know the NSA could be watching you, me, anyone...

People wake up to read this morning that not only Cindy, but (GASP) a 'fine Republican woman' (horrors!) are removed because of what they are wearing from the SOTU!

The psyops here is not even subtle...

Watch what you say... Watch what you wear... Watch what you think... even if you say you are on "our side"...

Final note: The Chimp made his appearance but Cindy stole his spotlight... That's powerful. I'm sure that the destruction of an anti-war icon's impact is waaay down on the list of Rove's to-do's today... right?

[goodhue]

116. it is disheartening

but I can't say I'm surprised

[David Zephyr]

117. It is shameful. It pissed me off.

:kick:

I don't get to the DU much anymore, but last night reading what seemed to be one lame comment after the next in thread after thread where DU posters piled on top of her, I just got sick.

Thanks William.

I stand with Cindy and honor her suffering and her courage.

She shames us all.

Edited to K&R.

[Cha]

193. Too busy to get to DU?

Hi David! :hi:

[David Zephyr]

198. Lately so. William's thread is spot on. Cindy bashing? Pathetic.

Thanks for the hello.

I was saddened to see posters here last night trashing Cindy Sheehan.

I can only say that she puts me to shame. :hi:

[understandinglife]

118. Thank you for writing this, Will.

Peace.

[sonicramone]

127. Cindy's a Bit over the ToP

I think most of us are at least in the ballpark when we say
the Cindy is acting a bit over the top.  Getting arrested and
showing civil disobedience is fine.  It has done amazing
things in getting her message out.  But, buddying up with Hugo
Chavez in Venezuela, challenging Diane Feinstein for the
Senate and now getting booted out of the SOTU for wearing a
provocative t-shirt is starting to push it.

She is acting too fringe and is losing (if not already lost)
her credibility.  I have always felt bad for her, but
channeling her sadness into calls for isolationism and
socialism have turned me off.

Wearing the shirt to the SOTU was fine.  Just don't play
victim when they pull you out of there.

[iconoclastNYC]

135. Nice republican talking points there.

Ending an unjust war that we can't win is isolationism huh? I
think it's admitting to your mistakes.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[iconoclastNYC]

144. This isn't about Islamic Militants

You are totally buying the Bush neocon rhetoric.

We are making the situation in the middle east worse by being
there. Taking our troops out of the middle east would be a
huge blow to the Islamists, if you knew anything about the
history of thier movement you'd know this. But you are
drinking the neocon coolaid so I doubt you'll ever bother to
look into it.

Keep thinking that Iraq something to do with 9/11.

We should never have gone in.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[samhsarah]

168. WTF are you talking about????????

I'm not even sure she is challenging Feinstein, last I heard,
she is backing the Green Candidate running against her.  But
if she was challenging Feinstein, WTF is wrong with that?  How
is that pushing it?  As for your obviously ignorant Chavez
comment, please answer this question I posted earlier, will
you? 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=294365&mesg_id=294365

And HOW did she PLAY victim?  She was arrested for doing
ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY nothing wrong.  If she feels at all
victimized, which I have yet to see her PLAYING victim, but if
she feels victimized, it's because she WAS!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

176. Don't you fucking assholes have your own sites????? n/t

[Seabiscuit]

369. Yeah, they do, but they suck so bad they can't resist DU - at least DU

isn't a crashing moronic bore like the sites in
freeptardville.

[samhsarah]

121. Shameful indeed.

And very, very, sad.:-(

[stillrockin]

123. It just goes to show

how conditioned some people are to meet others' expectations of "good" behavior above all else. I'm with Cindy, all the way. She's just living her life, openly and honestly.

[madfloridian]

124. I am in awe that so many at DU don't support the Democratic Party

and the changes that are going on now. So I understand.

I think it is so logical to take the organization we have, work to change it from within. But so many here don't agree with me, and it really puzzles me.

[iconoclastNYC]

132. Divide and conquer.

There are people on here who planted the anti-Cindy seeds long ago and unfortunately they've taken root and are spreading.

[Cults4Bush]

179. Boom! Thats the truth right there! It started with that unfounded anti-se

anti-semitic BS and they exploit every damn thing she says that might be used to wedge her out of any prominence. I had no idea so many Cindy haters were around even the ones who disguise their hatred behind faux respect are pissing me off on this thread.

Fuck 'em! At least I can censor them like they'd do to Cindy. Ignore is your friend for reallies!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

133. That fact in and of itself isn't surprising to me

What I can't wrap my mind around is why anyone on DU would quote RW talking points against her. I've even seen the exact wording used here that the anti-Cindy protesters were chanting in Crawford. That surprised me.

If someone disagrees with something Cindy has said or done, that's fine, anyone should have the right to disagree with her on individual issues. If the best a person can do is whip out some over used RW talking point the least they sould do is not cry victim when you point that fact out to them.

[noonwitch]

137. I feel no need to trash her, but I wouldn't vote for her over Fienstein

If I lived in California. I feel bad for her, for losing her son in Iraq, however, losing a son in Iraq is not the only quality I'd be looking for in selecting a Senator. The war is not the only issue out there.

[DinahMoeHum]

138. There are times when one must start acting "irrational". . .

when everything and everything else around that person is irrational to begin with.

Fuck civility when dealing with Repukes.

:argh:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

140. She's an embarassment to the pro-war Democrats.

Just as MLK and Rosa Parks were to the pro-segregation Democrats 50 years ago.

[H2O Man]

142. John and Yoko

took a lot of shit in their 1969 campaign for peace.

[Ohio Joe]

145. I agree completely

I said something very similar the other day in one of the posts debating her comments about President Clinton.

[lonestarnot]

153. I am with you Pitt and how's Hairy Bastard?

[Skittles]

228. I am just guessing but..........

is that what he named his cat? It's a disgrace! :7

[lonestarnot]

274. Dat would be Mr. Cat of William Pit: Hairy Bastid!

:D

[Skittles]

304. if I recall, it is a tuxedo, right?

I got me a long-hair tuxedo recently, an injured stray; I have named him Riff Raff

[sendero]

154. Awe isn't the word I'd use..

... disgust is more like it :(

[meisje]

155. She's one ski away from jumping the shark

She has clearly lost focus of her original message and is now appearing to do whatever it takes to retain the spotlight.
Going to hang out with Chavez, claiming she is going to run for office, going back to Bush's ranch and now wearing a t-shirt to the event last night all seem a bit tabloid. A. She had to have known that they would be looking for any reason to throw her out. and B. Out of respect for the setting, not the president, I think it was inappropriate to wear a t-shirt.

I supported her original message, but I cannot support the circus act this is now becoming.

I could go on, but many of you are already ignorantly labeling me as a freeper because I do not tow the DU line. I guess I should just go out and remove the Kerry bumper sticker and replace it with a "W".

[seabeyond]

158. take my 8 stickers off and peace necklace, sell car for a hummer

bah hahahaha. that is a lot of work for me to do for a bunch of people on internet. see i dont even go as far as you on critizism, but i hear you. i respect your right to feel that. you are talking a truth. fact. not that a single person will identify if my post is bashing when i say she doesnt speak for me, she speaks for herself. go figure

well i am going ot pick up kids in my colorful car of liberalism

[hunter]

162. Fuck that. I'll wade into the water and grab the damned shark.

I'm so tired of all the cowards in this country, starting with the first coward in our white house and working my way down to all the mousy coward democrats scurrying through the hay.

Fear the People, George W. Bush.

[seabeyond]

166. who is the coward?

[hunter]

181. Bush, of course...

...and all the democrats who are afraid to fight.

I want to see Bush do a SOTU, or even a press conference, in front of an angry audience.

Bush fears us. Make him sweat.

[yvr girl]

157. I wasn't sure about her actions, so I didn't say anything

The first report I heard was that she had unfurled a banner in the chamber. I could totally sympathize with that action, but I also understood why this would cause her expulsion.

I now understand that she was taken out for wearing an 'objectionable' T-shirt. I think the authorities reaction was completely over-the-top. Ask her to put her jacket back on. If she didn't comply with that, then she could be asked to leave. There was no need to detain her.

[sonicramone]

160. zip up her jacket

If they asked her to zip up her jacket, and she complied, then what would keep her from unzipping her jacket in the middle of the speech?? I'm sure the security didn't want to take any chances of her disrupting the proceedings, so they just hauled her out. I don't see anything wrong with it.

I also don't see anything wrong with hauling out the Rep's wife for wearing a Support the Troops shirt.

Keep the Political Messages off of your shirts while in the Hall!!!!

[yvr girl]

163. So she's AUTOMATICALLY GUILTY?

'Ma'am you can't wear that in here'

'I didn't realize that. Is it OK if I just zip up my jacket."

'Yes, that will be fine.'


Most likely, the end of the story.


If and ONLY if she took off her jacket, then it is legitimate to ask her to leave.

[MADem]

173. She received no warning, and I have yet to see any rule that applies

to guests...there are rules for MEMBERS, but no one has yet cited the rule she is alledged to have broken. Purple fingers are political expression, too, and we saw a shitload of those last year...

[AbbyR]

185. Since when do we arrest people for what they might do?

Oh - yeah. Now I remember. Since Bush was selected.

[EFerrari]

164. I can understand DUers not agreeing with her or with

the way she does things.

I can't understand the way some are so willing to jump on the bandwagon when the presstitutes go to work.

On the other hand, Cindy wears t-shirts and goes to peace conferences in Venuezuela. :eyes:

[MrPrax]

165. This is a recording...

This is a recording...

If Cindy exercises her democratic right to run against Feinstein, then rePUKEs will support her and make Feinstein raise even MORE money...

If Nader exercises his democratic right to run against Gore/Kerry, then rePUKEs will support her and make Gore/Kerry raise even more money...

If Ross Perot exercises his democratic right to run against Bush, then dumocraps will support him and make Bush raise even more money...

This is a recording from the 216.158.28.199 exchange, please try your number again...this is a recording...

[bloom]

167. It's probably just those pro-Pre-emptive War "Democrats", etc.

Who don't really care that we're losing our constitutional rights - one-by-one.

[JitterbugPerfume]

174. yes Will, the mind boggles

Cindy is heroic I adore her

[donheld]

175. I don't understand it either

Cindy has been great for the cause of progressives. People must remember she's not a trained professional. Just a woman driven by the death of her son to make the world a better place.

[AbbyR]

177. It's not about Cindy, not any more...

Yes I support her, but I'm not concerned and angry because Cindy got kicked out of the SOTU, I'm upset because an AMERICAN got kicked out for a t-shirt. How unconstitutional is that? It upset me so badly that I joined the ACLU today. If she can get kicked out for having a number on her t-shirt, what's next? I shudder to think.

The whole world has gone crazy - it's not DU, it's not Cindy.

I want my country back. Now. :patriot:

[savemefromdumbya]

331. YES YES YES!

[tabasco]

182. You got that right.

What is truly shameful is seeing a citizen evicted from the People's House for wearing a shirt with an anti-war message.

The People do not have the right to oppose war in our government buildings now.

There is nothing special about the State of the Union speech that requires different rules.

It is legal to wear that shirt anywher in the USA.

Why was she evicted from the building? She was not creating a disturbance, or bothering anyone in any way. She was evicted because the President does not agree with her political message, which is to end the war.

DU is a pretty big place these days. You sure see a wide range of opinions. But to not completely defend Cindy's absolute right to be in that building last night is difficult to fathom. We are talking about basic rights here. The incident has me asking just how far we have moved towards fascism.

[McCamy Taylor]

186. The left breeds people who take contrary positions just because...

They dont mean any harm. It is a function of being forward thinking and liberal. Someone has to explore all possible areas of thought, otherwise the group runs the risk of falling into dualistic thinking, like the Far Right.

Just think of Shiva doing the dance of Destruction and Creation simultaneously and you will understand.

Or, ask yourself what a Zen Master would say to any group that demanded that 100% of the members (including him) act excatly the same way.

[in_cog_ni_to]

187. I agree. n/t

[mdmc]

188. It is not that I don't back her

I just feel that the anti-war movement has exploited her, and her pain, and her loss.

What if she dressed up and attended TSOTU? I wouldn't be able to bare the pain of seeing her as w. smirks at the "sacrifice" needed, or when he described the "second guessers". I think it would have broke her heart, and mine to see it.

Cindy Sheehan is dealing with a great loss, and now she is also saddled with the collective loss that we all feel due to w. It is not fair.

I hope that Cindy can heal, and accept her loss. I oppose the Iraq war, but also oppose immediate withdrawal. We are tasked with occupying this country, because we overthrew the government. I think that immediate withdrawal (although it is tempting) is wrong, and that this exit strategy is best advocated by someone like Murtha, with strong military credentials. Cindy Sheenan is the wrong spokesperson for this strategy. I feel that her pain overshadows the politics and policy that she is advancing. I feel that she avoids dealing with this pain by focusing on radical politics. I wonder if she will be this passionate for withdrawal once she had accepted and dealt with her pain.


God Bless Cindy, and her family. I hope that they all are able to bare this loss.

I think Cindy should have dressed up for the event, and not worn a protest t-shirt (she didn't want to make a scene, right?). Perhaps she didn't really want to stay, and preferred to be escorted out. I don't know if "I don't have Cindy's back". I just feel awful for her. I also think that she could have been removed in a far less hostile manner.

GOD BLESS YOU , CINDY SHEEHAN!

[Hissyspit]

189. I was bothered by the bashing, too. The facts were clearly not in

on what had happened and people were already bashing her. I stand with her and I'm also pretty cognizant that misinformation attempts follow her wherever she goes. DUers of all people should be aware of that.

[chefgirl]

191. I agree completely

Cindy Sheehan doesn't owe any of us one damned thing. She does what she feels is right and she has every right to speak out in whatever way she chooses. Thats how she came to everyones attention in the first place.

She didn't ask for the approval of anyone when she began speaking out about the death of her son, she didnt ask for anyones approval last night before wearing that shirt, nor should she have.

We, however, DO owe her our complete support, regardless of whether we agree with what shes saying or not. Her/our right to speak freely in America has been infringed aggregiously, and as fellow citizens we have a duty and an obligation to stand up for her/our rights. Isn't that, after all, what she's trying to do for HER fellow citizens?

Cindy Sheehan is a great American.

-chef-

[jseankil]

192. *Yawn* I'm tired of hearing the name Cindy Sheehan /nm

/nm

[Thtwudbeme]

202. So you clicked on a post with a hundred replies that all said "Cindy."

that's OK....I do stuff like that too---

Half my posts don't even make sense.

[Moochy]

321. Quit reading it outloud

use your inside voice when reading DU. :P

[LittleClarkie]

196. A question Mr. Pitt:

What I saw from some people last night was all that you have just said, that they don't always agree with her. No one will agree with anyone 100% indeed.

But saying even that much will get you creamed around here.

What is support? Does supporting someone mean you never say anything about when you disagree with her, even in the most civil tones?

[seabeyond]

203. i too have a question, the same question... and has been asked

respectfully by at least four people on this site that has been posting a long time. i have yet to see an answer. i have seen bashes on people that dare to go away from the 100%.......must be pro war, must be divide and conquer, must be troll, freeper, coward, yet no one has answered this question that has been asked in all due repsect a number of time. so i will have to assume we are to never disagree out loud, only silently. even in a civil tone. a respectful and supportive tone. she must be MY voice, because a group has decided it is so.

ooooohhhh, this is a tough one for me.

nah, i dont think i will buy it.

does that make me a cowardor courageous because i respect my own voice and a desire not to walk in mob..... ever.


who is honoring cindy's fight for the right to speak. me, or those that tell us to toe the line?

[kid a]

247. you didn't share that respect with me yesterday!!nt

[madokie]

200. Mark my words Cindy Sheehan will be remembered as the

voice that will ultimately end this present occupation and I'm not talking about Iraq, I'm talking about the squatter's in the WH.

[seabeyond]

205. i believe too. her voice is strong, she is strong and she is

fearless.

what happened last night especially if she is taking it to court will be a huge step forward in challenging bush

[klook]

204. Here's one who backs Cindy 100%

She is a very effective activist, because she's obviously just a regular American who's outraged and deeply committed to meaningful change. And it's her effectiveness that scares the hell out of the Right, and why they're constantly trying to make her seem insignificant.

They wish!

Cindy rocks!!

[radio4progressives]

211. The Bashing of Cindy reminds me so much of the Vilification of King

during the Civil Rights movement in the early '60's. It so much mirrors the kind of reactionary crap, distortion of facts, and just the plain demonization of what he was doing and how he was going about it.

It could be heard from many quarters of so called libruls, who w/should have known better, would say that although they recognize the problem, King should just stay home and keep quite, he's making things so much worse for everybody.

It's the same thing going on with reactionaries to Cindy. "Cindy doesn't speak for me", she doesn't speak for Democrats.

When did Cindy ever claim to be speaking for Democrats? In fact Cindy has been on the cases of several key Democrats on the issue of the war, taking names, and being quite vocal and public about it.

Cindy has always represented a strong and principled stand the AGAINST WAR. Maybe the anti-Cindy people are actually in support of the War, or ambivalent about it?

If that's the case, that's what they should be arguing instead of camouflaging their pro-war position by being simply just "anti-Cindy Sheehan".

just asking people to be clear on what the issue really is about wrt to Cindy.

Personally, I'm thrilled that she was invited to the Congressional hall Gallery by Lyn Woolsey, (i'm proud to say my Congress Rep) I'm only sorry that Cindy was treated badly, and was denied access and was wrongfully arrested.

She's a hero because she has time and time again, put her body on the line, standing on principle for what is right, and just.

Cindy Speaks For Me...

[EFerrari]

221. So true. Doug and I called Lynn's office this morning and

put ourselves at her campaign office's disposal. I have one more "good guy" on the books.

:toast:

[madrchsod]

213. i wouldn`t have done

but i`m glad she did. she has every right to do what ever she likes to protest the war and the emperor.

[eppur_se_muova]

218. Ask yourself this ... if you were POTUS how would you react?

Me, personally, if I were giving some hotshit speech and I saw someone sitting in the audience dressed as a skeleton with a sign printed in fresh blood calling me a Satan-worshiping butcher I'd probably think "are they *really* informed enough to know?" and give the damned speech. (Of course I'd snarkily note that they're too dumb to distinguish between a Satan worhiper and an atheist.) I guess the difference is that I'd feel I was confident I had made an informed decision whereas ** lives in constant fear that one of these days everyone is going to see him for the ignorant buffoon that he is, so he throws a raging paranoid fit whenever someone calls him out.

[newsguyatl]

222. agree 10000%

i support her now, and i always have.

i, too, was amazed at some of the hatred spewed here on here.

then again, lots of so-called "moderates" are here -- and they're about as useless as the republicans. i imagine many of them were ones trashing her.

[buddhamama]

223. Cindy was true to herself

and her cause last night, a cause I support 100%, btw.

I respect and admire her.

[Rex]

224. Peoples darker side.

Everyone has one, even us libs. The great thing about DU is that we run the gauntlet of ideologies, so I'm not surprised at all by some of the responses. I expect at least a few people to not like Cindy (I think she's great) and maybe show their bias. So what, this is still a free society and if they want to hate her guts then I will defend their right to do so. Now come on Will, are you REALLY that surprised?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

230. this is a diverse community and cindy sheehan is one person

not even really an issue as much as one indivial grieving mother. some of us want progress in different ways. some of us just want dems to win. and we think that we need clever strategies and cogent arguments. we may not want to be seen as protestors only.

there are many reasons to support her and many reasons to want distance from her.

[JanMichael]

254. Troll! Troll! Troll! Troll! Troll!

Amazing isn't it? My wife who's been on DU as long as anyone, actually got a prize from Skinner at the last DU meetup at the Septemeber protest, is now a troll.

Hahahahahahaha!

Now you're one too troll!

Damn those that can have an opinion that diverges from the Willthink!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

235. It saddens me as well

I think losing so often and for long has made many on the left overly timid; there is so much fear that Cindy (or Howard Dean, or John Conyers, or Michael Moore, or Paul Hackett...) will "hurt our cause" by being honest and outspoken.

Personally I cheer anyone brave enough to speak up in this environment. And she was only wearing a t-shirt, for chrissakes, she didn't throw blood on the stage or lay down in the aisle.

Sad sad sad. Where has all the activism gone?

[jzodda]

239. I don't back much of what she says

I feel sorry for her loss, and its something I would not even know how to handle. I thank her for opening some eyes to the realities of this war and her protests over the summer were important to help do so.

I have read or heard her make statements that I totally and 100% disagree with. If shes from a certain wing of the Dem party, then its certainly not my wing. If she ran for office in my state I would certainly vote against her as well.

People in this forum are having a harder and harder time letting people have their own views without having a temper tantrum. Its all part of the Dem party being out in the proverbial wilderness since Gore lost in 2000. So I totally understand the anger and confusion, and the feelings of helplessness.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

242. People are having a harder time letting people have their own views

exactly!

[laylah]

244. As always Will,

your eloquence puts it out there. I agree with you 150% (as I have for the better part of 5 years). I have yet to take exception to any of her actions! IMVHO...Cindy rocks!

As always, thanks for your insight.

Jenn

[EFerrari]

246. Linn Woolsey on CSPAN defending Cindy.

Saying how ironic that Cindy was arrested for wearing a t-shirt that expressed a view which disagreed with the president's on the same day we lost Coretta.

And saying, not that her action could be classified as dissent as most of America agrees with her.

:toast: to Marin County. I apologize for all those New Age jokes and thank you. :)

[McCamy Taylor]

249. Misread the header. Will is glad Dems dont goosestep! Individuality!

:headbang:

[Ladyhawk]

250. I personally can't understand why anyone wouldn't back

Cindy on this. Apparently, she had worn that shirt all day, had just received the invite and didn't have time to change. Even if wearing the shirt was planned, she has a right to wear whatever she wants...or at least she should. It's not about "bad taste" in clothes. It's about first amendment rights. Also, if someone hasn't pointed this out already, we Californians tend to be a rather casual lot. What is a fashion faux pas for folks on the East Coast is A-OK by us Californians.

Regardless, the "fashion" argument is bullshit. You shouldn't get arrested for what you're wearing.

Some people I like and respect disagree with me on this. I really don't understand their reasoning, but the truth is this is still America (sort of) and they have every right to disagree with me. :shrug:

As for me, I back Cindy and I'm appalled that she would be arrested for wearing a t-shirt that might upset Der Chimpenfuhrer.

[greiner3]

253. Sorry, I missed something. I've seen Cindy twice on TV;

Speaking and it looks like she holds her own. I'm hoping she takes on Finestein, the damn 'Sunday' Democrat and actually wins. Go Cindy!

[EFerrari]

257. "Sunday Democrat" is right.

:kick:

[madeline_con]

259. So, which is it?

You wrote:

"I am utterly in awe at the very idea that DU wouldn't back Cindy 100%"

AND...


"Everyone here has a right to their opinions, and are certainly well within those rights to point at an instance where they think Cindy Sheehan did or said the wrong thing."


Everyone here has the right not to back Cindy 100%, then.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

262. exactly!!!

my god she is one woman...why cant we agree to disagree on her ways?

[ruggerson]

267. Stop using common sense, dammit

;)

[LittleClarkie]

281. Will hates us for our freedoms

Sniff.

[Maddy McCall]

289. Ha! He doesn't even realize his own contradictions.

Thanks for pointing that out. :rofl:

I support Cindy Sheehan's mission. But I am not so enamored with her that I won't speak my mind if she does something with which I don't agree. And I'll continue to voice my opinion as long as I please, whether it's about Sheehan, Bush, Landrieu, or anyone else.

The people on DU who tried to squash debate last night by referring to people with opinions not like theirs as "trolls" or whatever should be ashamed.

I think the greatest problem is that there are a lot of political neophytes on DU who just can't civilly take an opposing opinion. And they are the true disruptors.

[ruggerson]

294. Well said, Maddy n/t

[LincolnMcGrath]

296. Those are not contradictory statements? wtf?

Everyone has the right to their opinion

AND

I am shocked by some opinions

>paraphrased of course<


Why try to insert contradiction where there is none.

[ruggerson]

297. So everyone has a right to their opinions

as long as they agree with his?

Otherwise they should be ashamed of themselves.

Hmmm.

[LincolnMcGrath]

298. Where EXACTLY did he tell you you HAD to agree with him?

:shrug:

[ruggerson]

303. He didn't. And I didn't write that he did.

I said he called us "shameful."

Right after telling us, with great generosity, that we have a right to our opinions.

[LincolnMcGrath]

306. A. Since you never addressed the post I replied to,

we can assume I am correct that they are not contradictory statements?

B. "Otherwise they should be ashamed of themselves" AND "he called us "shameful" are both incorrect interpretations of the untended effect of the OP. Have you never seen a DU topic, post, picture, trend, etc, that you considered shameful?

C. You make it seem like Will does NOT have a right to consider anything shameful. :hi:


P.S. Getting flamed sucks sometimes, trust me, I know how a good flaming feels.

[ruggerson]

308. He can consider anything he wants shameful

But to say in one breath that "Everyone here has a right to their opinions, and are certainly well within those rights to point at an instance where they think Cindy Sheehan did or said the wrong thing." And then in the next breath that he considers anything except for 100% "support and admiration" for her to be "shameful", yes, that is contradictory.

He has a right to his opinion and we have a right to point out that he is being illogical.

There ya go. Answered your A, B and C all in one.

And getting flamed by people who want to silence political opinion they disagree with only highlights the need for more discourse, not less.

[LincolnMcGrath]

312. Re-read post 296

There is no contradiction. IMHO

You say in one breath that he has a right to his opinion, and in the second breath you try to silence his political opinion by claiming contradiction and lack of logic, which seems to highlight less discourse, not more.

[ruggerson]

315. not a soul here has tried to silence him

if he wants to be illogical, by God, I will fight for his right to be illogical.

[Tom Rinaldo]

260. It's shameful to equate any criticism with shameful behavior

It is possible to admire Cindy Sheehan and be critical of one or more choices she makes. You did not define what "backing Cindy 100%" means, and so your comments have no meaning to me. Must all DU members 100% back Sheehan's proposals for Iraq in order to back Cindy 100%? That might be a problem for some DU members who also admire John Kerry, John Edwards, Wes Clark, or Russ Feingold to name but a few.

If I think Cindy says or does something that in my opinion gives unnecessary ammunition to our enemies without significantly advancing our cause, does that mean I don't admire one or more things about her?

If her views did not closely match my own, would it be shameful of me to say that she doesn't speak for me?

Your OP is too vague in it's appeal to emotion. In fact many things Cindy says I do agree with. I honor her courage and resolve. I mourn the loss of her son. I think the treatment she received last night was deplorable. But none of us are beholden to pledge Cindy full support and admiration in order to be a member in good standing of the DU Community.

[Maddy McCall]

290. Thank you.

Your eloquence is unparalleled on DU. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

309. I love to hear the voice of opposition.

:patriot:

Btw, I support what Cindy did last night. ;)

[ruggerson]

264. If Will Rogers were to visit here

he would recognize us instantly.

I still feel that Cindy has performed a selfless service for America and the world by standing up for what she believes, and that one of the basic tenets of a free society is that she, and any other American should proudly stand up and shout against evil and injustice and most certainly against this corrupt, amoral adminstration and its corrupt, amoral war.

I also still feel that she voices some positions that I don't agree with and that don't benefit the Democratic party and our (fingers crossed) taking back of the government.

I assume some of your post was directed at me: I even harbor no ill will towards those that PM'ed me screaming "fuck you" over a post that was pretty innocuous, but expressed my feelings. I understand passions are high and people are furious at BushCo and are tired of losing fights. I know I am.

I hope we don't lose the ability to debate each other civilly and responsibly over issues where we disagree. I think most of us would agree on the general direction in which we wish to move this country. But, we don't have to walk in lockstep to get there: we aren't the religious rightwing and we should not behave like them.

[RoyGBiv]

265. Well said, Will ...

:kick:

[upi402]

268. TROLLS i figured

What part of peaceful resistance don't people like?
The resistance part maybe???

[smartvoter]

270. Cannibalism. nt

[Orsino]

271. Is 99% okay?

A very few of her statements have been overly hyperbolic, but otherwise she's the bee's knees. Much like Randi Rhodes, come to think of it.

As you said, 100% is unrealistic.

Cindy's done fine.

[Generator]

272. Buying the propaganda

Thy own enemy is the one in the mirror, or often ones thought to be friend. I was thinking with stunned amazement as I picked my daughter up from school that it would be not the Republicans, the stupidity and cruelty of the far Christian right, or the many right wing bullies that we face that would put me into abject surrender and despair-no it was my own party over the Alito vote.

Interesting as I heard about Cindy this morning on Democracy Now-that I imagined the outrage over Cindy being arrested and the joy on DU that she-and not our so called Democrats-whom Mr. Pitt so eloquently called to walk out of the state of the union-no, they were sitting there is total obedience after allowing his second pick for the supreme court for life.

Oh well. I don't agree with everything Cindy Sheehan says or does. But right now she is the opposition party. And buying the propganda is the same old song-we must appeal to moderates-we must not look bad-we must save our vote-save it from the nuclear option-not filibuster-not stand up-not say a wrong word-not say the truth-not challenge power-not risk anything ever ever. There is nothing to do but be a Cindy Sheehan. She may not be the pretty package. She is far left. Maybe too far left for my politics.

But after this week- I think I take far left over one Republican party which is all the Democrats have-key word here-ALLOWED themselves to become.

[upi402]

279. Agreed, SCREW the moderates, they got us here

and do you think they'll do a god damn thing to get us out of this tiger cage of freedom?

Hell no. That's for the radicals. The troublemakers. The liberal wing of the Democratic party.

[autorank]

275. Recommended. I am too and thank you for saying this!!!

It needed to be said. My God, when you have a David Letterman lay it out as he did with O'Reilly, it's even harder to understand DUers who wouldn't support her.

She went to the speech, she did not cause a disruption, and she was fucking arrested. This Alito-ism has to stop. These people need to be removed from power. We need a restoration of some level of decency in this country.

Excellent points.

I am autorank and I heartily endorse this message.

[Generic Other]

276. Cindy Sheehan is worth a hundred of her naysayers

If any of them do something of value to remind Americans there are citizens that oppose tyranny like she has done, I will support their actions too. Until, then they should shut the fuck up.

[Nikki Stone 1]

280. kick

:kick:

[davekriss]

283. I am 110% delighted with everything Cindy does...

...in fact she can PM me anytime if she needs some help or aid of any kind. I will certainly try my best to help.

:)

[American liberal]

284. hear, hear. I was troubled with the thread criticizing Sheehan

for speaking at the World Social Forum in Venezuela. but it was really about her having anything to do with Chavez. I didn't get it. And I also don't get how Sheehan's actions hurt "our cause." According to the article I read, she was totally on message (bring the troops home now). I have no problem with Sheehan. I admire her for walking the walk.

Peace,
AL

[TInCanCommunications]

286. Weak tactic will

Your public "shaming" of people only REDUCES debate. You encourage the DU echo chamber, which is why our message isn't as strong as it should be.

Let's try to come up with intelligent debate instead of oprah-fied calls for shame.

[WilliamPitt]

317. Shame on you

_|_

[EFerrari]

328. Lol

It is all about timing.

Next time I get arrested, please someone call the bondsman before you get into a long and free discussion about how it might hurt the next news cycle.

[Seabiscuit]

379. You should be asking yourself...

about the next time Will gets himself arrested for being drunk and disorderly outside his favorite bar, will it hurt his next news cycle?

[seabeyond]

329. yes i think

clearly this thread is manipulative. not even about sheehan really. i live in fundie land, i am a mama..... not hard to see.

[LincolnMcGrath]

291. Some here are just Vilsackian cowards

Worried about someone might maybe think somewhere sometime for something whether it is true or not.





DLC Hand Wringer!

One more for good measure

These people are the probem, not the solution.

[upi402]

299. i must be tired, that made sense

[LincolnMcGrath]

301. lol

:hi:

[RB TexLa]

295. Yes, because if everyone on DU backed all the same things all the time

There would be like really great debates over fonts and grammer, I guess.

[balzac]

300. Amen Brother!

This will probably be controversial, but if I were the administrator of this site, I'd take a close look at each person that criticized Cindy and look at their history of positions on various issues. Then I'd cull some of them from DU membership.

Kos had to cull a bunch of idiots from dailykos.com. So long as it's done with sound judgement, it's fine with me. But maybe it should be like survivor and we get to vote them off the island! That would be cool. Make a feature for us to excommunicate trolls from DU membership.

I hate to see our unity get watered down by disingenous fake democrats, agents-provocateur and trolls. They bring down our morale, our political identity, and dull our consensus.

[LincolnMcGrath]

302. They dull our consensus.

I like that. I may have to use that one! :hi:

[seabeyond]

323. and besides, they dont make good little sheep

baaaaahhhhh
wow

interesting post, a thought.

[Mythsaje]

307. I think it's a no-brainer...

NO ONE should be arrested for wearing a Tee-shirt, especially not one that simply states an obvious truth that this administration doesn't want addressed in public. I don't know if it was "stunt" or not, and, frankly, I don't care. Things have gotten so far out of hand that the people need to see it and recognize it for what it is.

I definitely don't agree with 100% of what I see here on DU. It usually hovers around 60% or so.

I can live with that.

But so far Cindy has done very little I have a problem with...I'm not even particularly miffed about the Chavez thing, though I'm not certain it was a particularly wise move. But I don't assume he's a nice guy just because he calls Bush a bastard and calls this administration on some of their b.s. He could be a would-be dictator too. Only time will tell.

[balzac]

314. Chavez is a good man.

I don't have to wait for the judgement of history. Some of us know enough about him to be very confident in the quality of his character.

[Tigress DEM]

310. MSM mis-information is part of it.

At first they said she had a banner, etc... then there was the implication that she was breaking some law that she knew about, just to make a statement... which was fine by me if she did, but the police DID drop all charges and even apologized. Still the damage was done.

And yet, it got people talking about how insane the restriction of "free speech" is under this administration.

I've been in DU threads that are supportive - even of people in the porn industry. I myself think that's not really an honorable way to make a living, but I yield on the grounds of free speech - they can speak their minds and if people want to buy their products, that's not my problem, it's theirs.

I've been in threads that tear Kerry or Clinton apart. I think people are just looking for some magic wand solution that really makes a huge dent in this terrible juggernaut that is building itself piece by piece before our eyes and nothing short of a symbolic nuke is going to make them feel safe from *ush's Orwellian society.

Personally I had more of a problem with the pissy Democratic Response from that guy in Virginia. Blah blah blah...

[orleans]

316. damn! everybody is posting on this one. i'd better get in on it too.

otherwise i'm gonna feel very left out.

my 2 cents:
i love cindy! t-shirt, jeans, i don't give a damn.
even though i am aware of dress etiquette (as someone on this thread was attempting to refer to) and i realize society dictates that one should not dress casually for a formal event i say fuck it. she was busy all day and obviously she is an extremely sincere person without "airs" -- she is so sincere and straightforward about her intentions that this superficial bullshit about "dressing up" probably didn't even occur to her. she was zeroed in on the fact that she would see the man who sent her child off to die for a lie.

if i was in her situation i'm sure i wouldn't be thinking i'm not dressed up enough and if it did occur to me i probably wouldn't give a rats ass that my lack of dress-up was offending that man.

she doesn't seem pretentious to me--se seems honest, and down to earth and real. she also comes off as a very kind, gentle and mild person.

and, besides all of this--the supreme court ruled in cohen v. california (in june of 1971 where someone wore the words "Fuck the Draft" on his jacket when he was in a courthouse) that "we cannot induldge the facile assumption that one can forbid particular words without also running a substantial risk of suppressing ideas in the process. indeed, governments might soon seize upon the censorship of particular words as a convenient guise for banning the expression of unpopular views. We have been able...to discern little social benefit that might result from running the risk of opening the door to such grave results."

and with that in mind, maybe she should've just worn a FUCK BUSH shirt and they would have left her alone.

[MrSlayer]

318. Some see her as a liability to the party.

Which really is patently absurd. All of us, from elected Democratic officials on down to the rank and file citizens, should be saying the things she says and doing the things she does. Not many have her guts or drive.

Even if you do not support her in general, what happened to her was a violation of our most basic rights, the very thing we are always talking about losing and to not support her on this particular issue is to side with the neo-cons in my opinion.

Great post Will.

[savemefromdumbya]

333. but is she a Democrat?

[ScreamingMeemie]

324. We rage and shout that people should take to the streets that someone

should make their voice heard. And, when they do, we heap scorn upon them. Nice.


I agree Will.

[Pacifist Patriot]

348. That is precisely what boggles my mind.

We want attention for the message and as soon as someone gets some, he or she is suddenly labeled a media hound. It's ridiculous.

I don't think this particular instance was a publicity stunt, but so what if it had been. Isn't publicity necessary? I'm damned glad someone is getting it besides Bush Co.

[Cocoa]

326. I liked Cindy until this thread

naw, I still like her, despite this thread. :-)

[savemefromdumbya]

332. Cindy is getting 'swiftboated'

poor woman who lost her son. We need more people to upset the applecart

[seabeyond]

334. swiftboated? from htis board? where...... give em to me

i will tear them up. where is she being swiftboated. i would like to know. link please

[mogster]

335. I like Cindy

I tried to make another post, but got this error an hour ago.

But Cindy is OK, and no smear will stick on her.

[CrackpotAmerica]

337. I Respectfully but Wholeheartedly Disagree

Greetings, Mr. Pitt,

I have been desperately trying to cool out on my DU’ing because I have a lot of personal issues to address. However, I broke down today because I felt that your post warranted my reply.

I am writing because I completely disagree and frankly reject your assertion.

Although I agree with your characterization of Mrs. Sheehan, her bravery and her humanity, her sacrifice and her rightful acceptance of our great love and respect, I feel you do her no service by demanding unconditional support for her. Further, no single good or productive thing can possibly result from your ‘scolding’ of the diverse membership of this forum. Thus, you do the DU no service by seeking to stand above us.

By mandating “100 percent” support of any one person, are not choosing to walk on dangerous ground yourself? Despite any man or woman’s quest for righteousness, no man or woman is, in fact, righteous.

By mandating total loyalty, are you not pursuing the same end result of what you have time and again rejected in your writings? Total loyalty can result in nothing that is free of corruption.


Are we to measure or equate our individual opposition based on your guidelines? Are we charged with checking with you first to ensure that we have met your standards before we express our own opinions?

Should these items be required of us to pursue our collective opposition, are we not surrendering our diversity to elitism ourselves?

I remind you, Mr. Pitt, that there is no utopia, nor shall utopia ever manifest itself on this earth.


On a personal note, Ms. Sheehan has said and done some things that I do not feel serves her quest (nor mine; ) however; it is hers and no one else’s. My respect, my love, and my support for this courageous woman, a woman whom I have never once had the great pleasure of meeting; yet hold an almost blood endearment for, is merely external to the core of her individual cause. Thus, I digress from making any overt judgments or critiques of her when she says or does something that does not perfectly conform to my own ideology.

I have done as much as I can as an individual to offer my support for her and shall continue. However, I shall at no time waive my right to disagree with her, you, or anyone else regardless of my love and respect for the person’s primary cause. I am CERTAIN that the vast majority of the members here at DU have done precisely the same thing.

Ironically, it is hardly ever Ms. Sheehan herself who draws me to my own criticisms. Rather, it is the people who hover around her that often frustrate me.

Often, it seems that “We’ve got Cindy Sheehan” is more important to some than “I support Cindy Sheehan,” which upsets me to no end as she is indebted to no one and has sacrificed more than many of us could ever conceive. And so, it is never her who expects us to conform to the definition of “100 percent” support as defined by the more popular institutions that seek to remove this cancer on our nation.


When I was younger, I worked at a nightclub. It was there that I learned the valuable lessons in respect to the universal need for humanity to abandon elitism. For, it was a microcosm of pure elitism.

Hundreds would line up to be judged by large, uneducated and otherwise unworthy men, who would assess the gamut of tactics of those who wished to enter but did not conform to the ‘elite’ standards of the club.

Physically unremarkable men and women would lower themselves to at last find that one specific name on the list to drop, that one person to be in the wake of, or that one thing they could offer sexually or monetarily just to get through the door.

Upon their rare success, these ‘probationary guests’ would shed their regret for whatever they had sacrificed to get in the door. For, they were inside. Behold, they were now ‘elite’ and above the journey they had traversed now.

I would often wonder what value it would hold anyone upon the next day.


Our support of Ms. Sheehan is not a tactic to enter your ‘club,’ nor is it at any time subject to your assessment, verdict, or rejection.

As much as I respect you, Mr. Pitt, you are not righteous, nor is anyone else including myself. As much as I support your values and your love and support of Cindy Sheehan, I am not subject to your specifications to how I choose to love and respect anyone.

I stand by Ms. Sheehan with no motives in pursuit of my own status. I oppose this President with no intention to serve my id or ego. Rather, I do these things for the sake of the collective diversity of my nation.

I do it for those whom I respect as much as I do it for those who I feel are purposefully seeking to undermine the pursuit of capturing and preserving the embattled purpose and dignity of the nation.

Were I to support any person or cause for the sake of pursuing elitism, I would be perpetuating the very ideology for which I have spent the better part of my life trying to destroy. This includes you, Mr. Pitt.

Anyway, an entire morning is now gone. Now I must get back to work. I thank you for your broad dedication to the cause despite this one item.


Thanks to you, thanks to Cindy Sheehan, and thanks to all of you here at DU!

And now, it’s back to breaking my DU addiction!


AGG

[seabeyond]

340. this needs its own thread. you speak for me dude,..... lol lol

every word, every accumulation of words, even breaking the addiction and a morning gone, works for me lol. oh and of course that was a funny you speak for me. i wouldnt be so arrogant to assume you speak for me, plus i am quite capable of speaking for myself. thank you for you well thought out post. thank you for such an articulate post. as i say, this needs its own thread. but then you may be on du into the afternoon. wink

off to the dry cleaners

[mimitabby]

341. this is a great post.. must read

[Lars39]

351. Good post, but kind of ironic.

I say ironic because most of the posters taking digs at Cindy are doing so over "wearing a t-shirt", not the message that was on the t-shirt.
"She should have dressed better, she should have worn something business-like, she should have known better, etc."
Sounds pretty classist to me. Means to me that a poor person wouldn't be welcome because they wouldn't have had the money to dress up to the nines.
Cindy looked well-groomed, wearing clean clothes. She was wearing black, so it was kinda hard to see the quality of the material in the photos, but if someone's got to wear a certain quality of fabric, a certain look, to get into what is supposed to be the People's House, then I'd say that filters out quite a few million of us.
"All men are created equal"? Lip service if you aren't dressed "correctly".

[incapsulated]

361. What an outstanding post!

Posts like yours reaffirm my affection for DU, which has been seriously lacking, of late.

Thank you!

:thumbsup:

Edit to add: Too bad Will Pitt won't respond to it.

[theboss]

338. Cindy's mission has morphed

It used to be about the war.
It now seems to be about Cindy.

That is my issue with her.

And this is not unusual in activist circles. Heck, didn't we all view the entire Bev/Andy/BBV meltdown? Isn't Michael Moore's entire career more or less a testament to the fact that the activist can become the issue?

Anyway, Cindy's MO has now become do something that is guaranteed to get negative attention from some authority and then immediately act shocked when the act obtains negative attention from some authority. Basically, her protest has become a form of performance art. And performance art has a notoriously short shelf-life.

[malmapus]

342. Wow, DU..miss a little..miss a lot

All I can say about Cindy Sheehan is that she is entitled to, or at least was like the rest of us, free speech. I will back her up 100% on that just like anyone else.

[katinmn]

343. Cindy Sheehan has challenged party leaders like Hillary & DiFi

That's why some DUers don't like her.

[Hosnon]

345. I think she has good intentions but is inexperienced politically and makes

horrible choices (hangin' out with Chavez).

I think she is now a liability for us.

[Roland99]

347. Give me a break. She has, at times, issued OVER-THE-TOP rhetoric

and that just weakens her stance, imo.

She's not the be-all, end-all anti-war protestor.

[progressivebydesign]

349. Didn't get the memo.. are we supposed to march in lockstep now?

Or be accused of being a troll... just because you think that we should support her 100%? Last time I checked, that wasn't the hallmark of free speech or democracy, or the Democratic Party. Feel free to support anyone you'd like. Trying to guilt or bullly people into supporting someone 100% is ridiculous.

I value the work that Cindy has done with her intention to speak to Bush. I honor the sacrifice that her son and she made to our country, even though I hate this war. I think it's wonderful that some people are stepping up, like Cindy and others, to protest the war. I DON'T agree with many of her statements once she left Crawford, Texas. I think she's trying to tear apart the Democratic Party, and do a Ralph Nader by ripping on possible Democratic nominees. I think she's has a right to her opinion, of course, but I don't have to support her blindly...

But to be asked to support her 100%, or anyone for that matter, or risk being labeled a "troll" or "rw plant" by people here, is bullshit. For some reason the people that profess to be so open minded and progressive around here, are the most narrow-minded thought police around. You know, for those on DU that have spent the past several months seeing trolls under their bed... there are effective treatments for paranoia. You can get drugs for that...you know.

[Douglas Carpenter]

350. here - here !!

[Seabiscuit]

352. Talk about a walking contradiction! ...

"I am utterly in awe at the very idea that DU wouldn't back Cindy 100%. The mind boggles."

Yet "Name for me please one person whose actions and words you agree with in every way, all the time.... I don't have one person I can name."

Yes, the mind boggles, all right.

No one can therefore back anyone 100% yet Pitt is in awe at the idea that DU wouldn't back Cindy 100%. Go figure.

Since Pitt isn't specific about anything Cindy has said or done, it can be reasonably assumed he's referring in general to all of Cindy's words and deeds.

I can't name one person I agree with 100% or that I "back" 100% therefore.

I can say I support Cindy's courage 100%, but can't say I agree with 100% of the things she says. Perhaps 98%. Which is probably more than I can say for anyone else.

1% would be set aside for that remark she made about Clinton killing more Iraqis than Bush. How on earth does that further the anti-war cause???? Clinton didn't declare an illegal, immoral, genocidal war on the Iraqi people, Bush did. And he's still killing them. This isn't Clinton's war, it's Bush's war. Cindy missed the target with that slip of the tongue.

Another 1% would be nitpicking about her choice of words at times. Not important.

If this thread was intended to address Cindy's arrest during the SOTU Address, which isn't at all clear from the original post, well, there was bound to be a lot of disagreement about that because the right-wing spin machine put out a lot of false stories (her "banner", etc.) immediately following the incident, so it's no wonder people have been confused about exactly what happened. Until Cindy's own statement about it appeared on Michael Moore's website. I can say that I support Cindy 100% in what she did on that occasion and also back her lawsuit 100%.

I'm not willing to bow to someone else's notions of ideological purity, however, no matter how much I admire Cindy or anyone else. No one's perfect, including Cindy, Pitt, and me.

[seabeyond]

353. IMPORTANT question WILL: do i now have to call feinstein a

warmonger because cindy has declared it so.......

[seabeyond]

354. or am i being a troll, freeper, brownshirt, predator even asking

the question?

[Skidmore]

355. You may be obtuse though.

Woman has a right to speak her mind in the manner she sees fit. As do you.

[seabeyond]

358. ah, i have been consistent saying she has the right, i have been told

i dont have the right. per support 100%. shame on me. this is what i am challenging, so as obtuse as you may like to feel i am....... i think i am seeing pretty damn clearly

i am the one with the position that she is NOT party oriented. she is going to go after whomever she feels gets in the way of her agenda. good for her. just know she isnt a democrat, and has no problem hurting democratic party. she does not work for democrats. she is working for herself as it should be.

i have been supporting and recognizing this very cindy, others are telling me to deny it.

[Skidmore]

360. Continue what you are doing.

Personally, I think Cindy should not make herself a spokesperson for either party, it dilutes her message.

I can't come back in this thread. It's killing my computer. Maybe someone should start a thread 2 if everything in the universe that is to be said about this topic has been exhausted.

BTW--I have an "I stand with Cindy" sign in my window at home.

[seabeyond]

364. i stand with her too. this is beyond cindy though

but that is my point. why i know i am right and will is wrong, lol lol. if we acknowledge cindy is anti war, and not a dem, not representitive of democratic party, then she says something like this about feinstein, who cares. if we say she is a dem and we support her 100% and she says something like this, then it becomes dividing the party. then people have to speak against or for her. then we have people outraged not all are supporting her. if she isnt a dem, we can continue to support her 100% in her war effort and not have to pick sides with these comments that are attacking the democratic party

it doesnt matter if it is moore or sheehan, or nader. all are given to the dem party, then they trash dem, .... then.... just another effort of bashing dem by dem, by people that have declared they are not dem. that is why it is so important to seperate, we support her fighting the war, her efforts, but she does not speak for the party. moore is green. it is not a dem speaking out on dem. he is no more speaking out against a dem than a repug is.

and the dems tried to welcome her in, they were fucked, and it behooves them to now keep themselves seperate of her.

and i abosultely agree and have made that point many times, she is not speaking for any party, that is hert strength. one of the things i was so impressed with her in crawford was she clearly didnt represent party. it was her battle. we were there in support. now because of our support it was much much more huge than what i thought it would be. so we get credit for that. we did give her soemthing in our support. but it was her battle, and we were along for the ride. we all clearly saw, and most all respected her in this. that made me proud.

[proud2BlibKansan]

356. Thank you Will

Yesterday I called shame on the DUers who criticized her and was immediately jumped on for what I said.

Thank you for stating my feelings far better than I can.

[Seabiscuit]

378. Who the fuck are you or Will to "call shame" on anyone at DU???

For shame!

You want us all to jump to your opinions in lockstep just like the Brownshirts and the Neocons???

You fuckin' crazy morons!!!

I personally am sick of reading Will Pitt's pathetic ego-massaging thread-starting posts on DU, and especially when they become so condescending as this one, all directed towards attracting his butt-kissing groupies like yourself, who enable and perpetuate his beer-besotted internet-driven need for perpetual ego-strokes. The man needs years of serious therapy, in part thanks to the likes of people like you who constantly enable his most self-destructive episodes/diatribes.

[Snivi Yllom]

357. Cindy Sheehan is on her way to becoming a caricature of herself

"I am utterly in awe at the very idea that DU wouldn't back Cindy 100%"

OR

"Name for me please one person whose actions and words you agree with in every way, all the time."

So which is it? Back someone 100% or do we exist in the real world where finding common ground with someones actions and words is unrealistic?


I already posted this, but it seems a good place to be posted again.

Someone asked yesterday if Sheehan is becoming the new Rosa Parks. Asides from being a completely different set of circumstances and level of activism, there is a point where activism can surpass the good of the cause. Activism for the sake of activism.

Fad is the wrong word, cult of personality is a closer analogy, although still not quite right.

I think she's on the edge of descending into irrelevancy and hurting her true goal of stopping the War in Iraq and the general violent War on Terror. Much the same way ANSWER has become a blanket catch all for every cause under the sun, diluting its message, Sheehan is doing the same thing to herself.


and my opinion may be shameful to you, but it's my opinion

[F.Gordon]

363. Whoop! There it is

Much the same way ANSWER has become a blanket catch all for every cause under the sun, diluting its message, Sheehan is doing the same thing to herself.

Maybe if Cindy would be taken off the pedestal that many have placed her on.....

Cindy has drifted waaaaay off course. Wants to hang Clinton by the nuts for something he had little to no control over and now she is threatening dems? The mind boggles. :crazy:

I think to the gent in the UK that stands on constant silent vigil against the Woor. Few, if any here on DU even know his name. I'm not much for "hero worship" but if I had to pick between Cindy and the guy in the UK... I'll go with the UK guy. At least he is staying "on message".

Do I support Cindy 100%? Ahh... no. I stand with her in regards to her original personal conviction, but I part ways when she becomes a political spokesperson for the "bash the dems" movement and whatever other "cause" she feels the need to become a logo for.

Just my opinion. Shameful as it might be.

[SeattleRob]

359. Agree

God Bless Cindy!

[dogday]

362. I heard Randi the other day ask Cindy if she was a Democrat?

although it has been assumed, I still have not heard the truth? Cindy is not the leader for the Democratic party, she is the leader for the Anti-War-Bring Them Home Now Party. She is the only one stepping up to make the difference and tell the tales about this war.

Love her actions or not, if you don't support this war, you have to at least support Cindy...

[seabeyond]

365. my guess is that they were republican. sounds like it from

some things i have heard from her. but she has really hooked up with moore. i wouldnt be surprised it if she nows feels something for green. all guesses. what did she answer, i am curious?

[dogday]

368. I don't know what party she believes in

everyone just assumes she is Democrat cause she is against the war, but I think her politics are more Independent than anything else...


If anyone knows would appreciate the post, thanks....

[Fenris]

367. What a constructive thread.

Attempting to shame people is an excellent way to bring them to your side.

If you love Cindy Sheehan, that's fine. If you don't like Cindy Sheehan, that's fine too. But this cult of personality nonsense is tiresome.

Being a liberal or progressive or whatever you're calling yourself today does not require that you like everyone on the left.

[cynatnite]

370. Cindy Sheehan's gotten a lot of camera time...

She's done a lot of good with the attention she's gotten, but so have others who aren't in front of the camera. They've worked just as hard and are just as passionate. Many of those people are a part of DU.

I don't always agree with everything she says and don't expect to, but I'm not going to set her on a pedestal with the likes of MLK or Rosa Parks, either. This gets done too much, IMO, and people will generally be disappointed with anyone who gets set so high. It's a long hard fall.

What's a shame is when those who don't always agree with Cindy Sheehan or don't overly support her that much gets shouted down, called names or just made to feel like crap whenever they don't go with the most popular DU outrage of the day.

This community is comprised of individuals diverse in their opinions and no one, least of all you, Will, should be surprised when not everyone falls to their knees declaring their undying support, love or whatever for Cindy Sheehan. Anyone who does think that is surely delusional.

[fishwax]

371. you're utterly in awe that we don't march in lockstep?

You're utterly in awe that 80,000 plus don't all agree on this 100%

How shocking to find dissent on this website.

Ah, hyperbole.

[TInCanCommunications]

372. No shit -- Some of us are drinking kool aid, eh?

heaven forbid we have a difference of opinion.
We must be right wing freak jobs if we don't view Cindy Sheehan as the next Martin Luther King..

This board feels like its overrun by teenaged, oprah-addicted frauds.

[tlsmith1963]

373. Good Points

No one goes to school to learn to be an activist. And I doubt that Cindy ever knew she would be in this position one day. She's just an ordinary person like the rest of us. In GWB's case, I think we can criticize him for the way he comes across. He is the President. He should say the word "nuclear", not "nukular". People expect the President to have some polish to what he says. Cindy isn't someone in an important position like that. I think we should excuse her occasional misstep.

Tammy

[TInCanCommunications]

376. So if she's ordinary??

Then why do we treat her like an icon?

it doesn't jive

[bigwillq]

375. Good post, Pitt.

I agree.

[NVMojo]

377. I back her up. I admire her. She has ballz, she is a hero!