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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 04:26 PM
Original message
The Plame Cases

In the past 48 hours, there have been reports on VP Dick Cheney and Ambassador Joseph Wilson being called upon by defense attorneys to testify during the upcoming criminal trial of disgraced former White House senior official I. Lewis Libby. The media reports have raised a number of questions that are worth our taking a closer look.


{1} Will VP Dick Cheney take the witness stand in the Libby trial?

(A) Possibly. It is also likely that he will attempt to avoid appearing in court in person. The 12-19 Reuters article by James Vicini ("Cheney to be called to testify in CIA leak case") notes: "Defense attorneys did not say whether Cheney would testify in the courtroom or would give videotaped testimony."

Likewise, the LA Times 12-20 article ("Libby’s defense will call Cheney to testify") notes: "The lawyers did not say whether they expected Cheney would appear in court or give his testimony through a deposition, although their statements indicated that they believe the vice president would appear in person and voluntarily without a subpoena."

In the past, I have stated that Cheney would attempt to testify by videotape if Mr. Fitzgerald called upon him to testify. Considering it is the defense calling him, this may well change.


{2} Will Cheney be considered a "hostile witness"?

(A) No. If by chance Ambassador Wilson were to testify, he might be. But VP Cheney is going to try to help Scooter.


{3} What will Cheney say that could possibly help Scooter?

(A) Team Libby is hoping to have Dick reinforce how busy Libby was during the time in question. The defense is attempting to say Libby was so busy, he simply forgot about Valerie Plame’s status. When we think back to Libby’s September 15, 2005 letter to inmate Judith Miller, we see the defense strategy beginning to jell: "You went into jail in the summer. It is fall now. You will have stories to cover – Iraqi elections and suicide bombers, biological threats and the Iranian nuclear program. Out West, where you vacation, the aspens will already be turning. They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them. Come back to work – and life." It is clear that Libby is saying the cluster of OVP/WHIG friends were going to take the position that Scooter and Dick were so concerned with Iraq, terrorists, Iran, and national security, that they paid little attention to Wilson and Plame.


{4} Will Fitzgerald be able to address this issue?

(A) Yes. If we look at page 7 of Mr. Fitzgerald’s Response to Defendant’s Third Motion to Compel Discovery (4-5-06), we read: "Some documents produced to defendant could be characterized as reflecting a plan to discredit, punish, or seek revenge against Mr. Wilson."

More, if we look at Scooter’s March 5, 2004 testimony to the Grand Jury, we find he was asked if the Wilson case "was discussed on a daily basis?"
Libby: Yes, sir.
Q: And was it discussed on multiple occasions each day in fact?
Libby: Yes, sir. ….
Q: And do you recall what it is that the Vice-President said?
Libby: I recall that he was very keen to get the truth out. …He was very keen on that, and said it frequently. Let’s get everything out. …..
Q: And is it fair to say that he had told you back in June, June 12 or before, prior to the Pincus article, that his wife worked in the functional office of the Counterproliferation of the CIA. Correct?
Libby: Yes, sir. ….
Q: And are you telling us under oath that from July 6th to July 14th you never discussed with Vice-President Cheney whether Mr. Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA?
Libby: No, no, I’m not saying that. …I had just forgotten it.

It will be interesting to hear VP Cheney explain how a topic that he discussed daily with Libby was of so little significance that Scooter could easily have forgotten it.


{5} What will Tim Russert be questioned about?

(A) First, Libby told both the FBI investigators and the Grand Jury that it was Russert who disclosed Valerie Plame’s identity as a CIA employee to him. Russert has made clear that he did not. First, he did not know about Plame until he read the Novak article. But more importantly, he and other NBC/MSNBC employees have a documented record of why Libby had called Russert.

This is best told in Michael Isikoff and David Corn’s book "Hubris," on pages 264-67. Libby and Cheney were furious at Chris Matthews’ reporting on Hardball. Matthews had stated, "It sounds to me (like) a hawk in the vice president’s office, probably from Scooter Libby ‘ had placed the Niger lie in Bush’s State of the Union speech. Libby called Adam Levine to complain; when this failed to get the results he wanted, Libby called Russert to complain. Russert called NBC president Neal Shapiro, who took the complaint as coming from VP Cheney.

Clearly, both Libby and Cheney were active in the operation to discredit Wilson and Plame in the media.


{6} Will the Team Libby strategy to make Scooter appear so overworked change Mr. Fitzgerald’s approach?

(A) No. In the Government’s Response to Defendant’s Motion for Reciprocal Disclosure Under CIPA (11-28-06), Mr. Fitzgerald made clear that he does not intend to contest the fact that Mr. Libby was busy with his work on a variety of other important issues involving national security. Rather, he will prove that the Wilson issue was something that occupied a lot of space in Scooter’s universe, and that he was actively involved in an attempt to discredit him. And Libby lied to investigators about this.

In their 12-4-06 Reply in Support of (their) Motion for Reciprocal Disclosure, Team Libby makes clear that they are frustrated that Mr. Fitzgerald will not attempt to say the Wilson matter was of greater significance to Scooter than the national security issues. Mr. Fitzgerald did not fall into that trap.


{7} Why is Ambassador Wilson attempting to avoid testifying at Libby’s trial?

(A) Team Libby is attempting to distract attention from the charges against Scooter. On October 28, 2005 he was indicted on five counts of obstruction of justice, perjury, and making false statements to federal investigators. He is not on trial for exposing a CIA agent’s identity. The trial is not about the infamous "16 words" in Bush’s State of the Union address. The war in Iraq is not on trial. And nothing that Wilson has said or done bears any direct relationship to the trial of Scooter Libby.

This issue was addressed in part during the May 5, 2006 pre-trial motion hearing. When attorney Wells told the Court that he planned to discuss Wilson’s trip to Niger and similar issues during the trial, Judge Walton responded, "I don’t know if I’d let that in. …. I don’t see how that has anything to do with this case." When Wells continued to speak about Wilson, Judge Walton asked, "How does that have anything to do with whether Mr. Libby made the statements to these various people?"

Judge Walton asked Mr. Fitzgerald about the Niger trip, and about the the INR report? Mr. Fitzgerald responds, "But we are not going down the road of trying the case of whether or not Mr. Wilson is right or Mr. Libby right or whose view of this. It is simply whether or not Mr. Libby told the truth."


{8} Where does the Wilson civil trial stand?

(A) On 12-17, Aaron Kinney of the MediaNews Staff had an article posted on Contra Costa Times, titled "Burlingame attorney prepares for CIA leak case." He noted that last week, high-profile attroney Joe "Crotchett picked up a 5-inch thick binder that he had just received from the denfendants in the case. It contained motions to dismiss the lawsuit based on executive privilege. Leaning forward in his chair, Cotchett assessed the magnitude of the case. ‘It’s going to be the case of the next year,’ Cotchett said. ‘It’s going to be the case that everyone watches because it involves fundamental constitutional issues. It goes right to the heart of our national security’."

That is the court case where it will be appropriate for Ambassador Wilson to testify in. And he might also be an important witness in Congressional investigations.


{9} Is there any evidence that any democrats in Congress might be interested in VP Cheney’s role in the Plame Scandal?

(A) Yes, there certainly is. The Nation’s blog had a 12-19 essay by John Nichols, the author of the important new book "The Genius of Impeachment: The Founder’s Cure for Royalism." His essay is titled, "If Cheney’s Talking, He Should Talk to Congress." He points out that the VP’s testimony might open doors to something that all progressive democrats should support.

"A little more than a year ago, three key members of the House (John Conyers, Henry Waxman, and Maurice Hinchey) sent a letter to the Vice President’a office in which they asked the (sic) Cheney to ‘make yourself available to appear before Congress to explain the details and reasons for yur office’s involvement – and your personal involvement – in the disclosure of Valerie Plame’s identity as a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operative’."

At the time, VP Cheney regarded Congressional attempts to provide oversight with utter contempt. He may find that things are going to change starting in January.


{10} Can we expect Conyers, Waxman, and/or Hinchey to examine the OVP’s role in the Plame scandal?

(A) Nichols quoted Hinchey as saying, "We are going to do everything we can to force this administration and this Congress to face up to the truth and to face up to their responsibility under the Constitution. … The people who wrote the Constitution that set up this government knew what they were doing. They knew what would happen if you let a regime go its own way without oversight. That’s why they set up the system of checks and balances. This Congress has shunned its responsibility, tossed its obligations under the Constitution aside – allowing the administration to do whatever it chooses, even to the point of looking aside when the administration lies to Congress and violates federal laws. That’s got to stop. We cannot have a monolithic government. We have to restore some of the balance, where the legislative branch is part of the process. And we think that one way to do this is by asking the vice president, in light of the questions that have arisen with regards to his actions, to come to Congress and answer the questions that are on the minds of the American people and their representatives."

I would suggest that people write to representative Maurice Hinchey at his Ithaca Office (123 S. Cayuga Street; #201; Ithaca, NY, 14850) and to request that John Conyers, Henery Waxman, and he make sure that VP Cheney comes to meet with Congress about his role in the Plame Scandal.

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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks H2O Man. Well Done!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you.
We have a number of Plame-related issues to cover in the next few weeks, in order to be properly prepared for the Libby trial.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Do you know
what day the trial is scheduled to start? Any chances of it being televised?

I want to make sure I've stocked up on enough popcorn.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. January 16th.
While things like the jury selection will not be televised, Judge Walton has indicated he wants the trial to be very public. I fully anticipate a daytime tv drama.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. WooHoo!
My Birthday!

Thanks for keeping us informed about all things that are Plame related.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I hope
you get everything you wish for.

:toast:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. If we get to watch Fitzgerald question Libby
that would be great viewing.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
61. Unless it gets continued........AAAAA AAAA AAKKKK!!!
I fervently hope that it doesn't get continued!!!
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
64. How Randian!
Edited on Fri Dec-22-06 11:24 AM by tbyg52
;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_January_16th#Plot

Edited to add:

No, I haven't been an Ayn Rand fan since a brief period in my formative years. But I do have a mind like an overstuffed attic full of associations, and this is what popped out.

It's kinda relevant, to the cabal if not so much to the Plame case specifically--the guy who jumps or was pushed uses money that isn't his to swindle people out of more money....!
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for the post H2O Man,
I am curious as to what the advantage is, of having your testimony videotaped instead of being on the witness stand?

Kicked and recommended
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. You can't cross-examine videotape.
I'm no lawyer but I did stay in a....
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I didn't know that, thanks for the reply spanone
and stay out of trouble:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. A videotaped statement
would involve questioning from both sides. But it really isn't the same as the tensions associated with open court. The best thing I can think of to compare it to is the difference between watching a film of a heavyweight title bout that took place in the past, versus sitting at ringside for the actual event.

I have had the opportunity to be involved in a number of trials that included testifying on the witness stand, as well as cases with depositions and filmed statements. A very good attorney -- and by all means, Mr. Fitzgerald is one -- is an artist in the courtroom. They "create."
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Video all the way, whether depo or in court!
It's important to have video cameras running, whether in a deposition or in open court, rather than relying on the *official transcript* of a proceeding, as produced by a certified court reporter.

I've worked in the court reporting field for 30 years -- as an editor and trainer, not as a court reporter -- and I can testify under oath that court reporters are fallible, and what sometimes has passed as a verbatim transcript has been a fiction that got through because stenographic rendering is like the Latin Mass -- only we who are initiated can read it. And if a reporter swears to a judge that she took it down, it's right, and she stands by her notes, there's been very little that could be done in the past. Attorneys have filed lawsuits over these issues, but the steno notes were the only record, in the past.

For years, some reporters secreted tape recorders in a briefcase because they didn't want to plant a seed that steno reporters might be replaced by a tape recorder. In fact, the human element is very much needed, and just taping has its problems. The court reporter as *part* of the formula is an important issue.

But a new day has now dawned, and unless there is some glitch in the performance of a video camera, the truth is there for all to see, and steno reporters nowadays scurry to get a copy of said video, or at least the audio portion of it, so they can make their final transcripts conform to exactly what was actually said (and not necessarily exactly what they wrote). There is still a requirement for an official court reporter to take down the record, even though a videographer is present, and the videotape or audio recording cannot stand as the official record. There could be exceptions to this, but his is generally the rule.

Steno reporters are fighting tooth and nail, lobbying judges, attorneys, and state legislatures, to keep the "evils" of digital recording (they claim it is an inferior method for making the record) out of courtrooms and deposition suites, while surreptitiously relying heavily on digital recordings to create an accurate record.

To inject a little "conspiracy theory" here, if Cheney were deposed by just the *right* court reporter, under just the *right* circumstances, outside of *open* court, the *official record* could end up being massaged a little here and there. And if the official transcript were used in a trial (following a deposition), references to what was said in the deposition would come from the transcript, and not from the videotape -- unless, of course, a discrepancy was seen and the video was then introduced as an exhibit to the record.

Yes, get that man in open court, with television cameras recording every twitch of that man's body, every bat of his beady eyes, every drool around his lying mouth! And of course, we want an accurate record of every utterance issuing from our unelected VP's mouth! Court reporters are not allowed to "interpret the record," meaning if tears are flowing, it could be from emotion or from allergies. Prior to the use of videotaping, the official transcript with just the *words* was all we had! We want to see the squirming, as well, now don't we?

"Your Honor, will you please instruct His Majesty, the Effing Prince of Darkness, that he is under oath, and to answer the question!"

Sorry! I dozed off there for a while! It was a great dream!





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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
55. Video!
Hopefully, all the upcoming trial proceedings and investigations will be on video. History is in the making, and I don't want to miss any of it. Might need to watch replays at odd hours, but that's ok!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Video the court hearings,
but do not allow VP Cheney to avoid sitting on that hot seat, where the jurors can watch his reactions to Patrick's questioning.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
60. But cross examination would be allowed during the making of the videotape
If cross-examination is NOT allowed during the making of the videotape, then the tape is not admissible in court for the purpose of straight testimony.

Hey, regarding Cheney's being called as a witness by the defense (Scooter), instead of being called as witness by the prosecution--I think it's great. That way, Scooter's team will not be allowed to ask Cheney leading questions, but Fitzgerald's team WILL. And in the cross-examination, Fitz's team will have a better chance to take Cheney down.

Another really good thing about Cheney being called by Scooter, instead of by Fitz: Fitz can then seek to impeach Cheney. (Unfortunately, not the kind of "real" impeachment Cheney deserves--removal from office--but rather the impeachment which occurs in every trial. This type of impeachment means that the witness is discredited, and the witness' honesty is called into question.) See, the truthfulness of any witness is always fair game as a subject matter for cross-examination. And this includes Cheney's truthfulness. And we KNOW the status of Cheney's truthfulness: nonexistent. Since Fitz is entitled to examine the subject of Cheney's truthfulness, it seems to me that Fitz could call upon any number of videotaped TV interviews in which Cheney said stuff that was patently and obviously FALSE. ("Isn't it true that you claimed Saddam had links to Al Quaida? And isn't it true that you knew this was not so?")
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. My only consideration was
what if Team Libby says they will call Cheney and then does not. That could be part of the game and why Fitzgerald has been deliberately vague about his list. If Congress calls him before the trial and puts him on the record, that would be interesting as he would not be granted immunity as the Iran Contra people were thereby taking prosecutions off the table thanks to republicans and Bob Dole in specific.

Great H20 Man!:popcorn:
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Aspens are turning
Thanks for the excellent analysis as always, sir. Who are the two mystery reporters?

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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Not being a lawyer.....
I very much appreciate the expertise from our more insightful posters like H2O man.

K&R

This Plame case reads like a spy thriller only with much greater real world consequences for our country.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. We are witness to history here ....
I suggest that DU will be a GREAT place to be in four weeks.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. Witnesses to history
with the benefit of a score card and great color commentary courtesy of your efforts. Looking forward to January fireworks. Many thanks.

Bookmarked as usual.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you, H2O Man!
Can't wait for January. It will be a busy month! :hi:
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Calling Joe Wilson for the Defense is
:crazy:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Tweety & Isikoff Coming Down Hard On Libby
Saying it's a slam dunk case. Interesting, they obviously think "everybody knows" that Cheney told Libby about Plame's identity, because they are talking about it like everyone does.

"Everyone in journalism knows they were obsessed with destroying Joe Wilson"
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. What is a word that is beyond "bizarre"? Everybody in journalism?
Pretty much everybody in journalism has perpetuated the tragic lies and covered the behinds of the Bush cabal. That's about all everybody in journalism has done.

What they KNOW has clearly been an entirely different matter than what they have done. And THAT is equally criminal.
Hmmm. I think I just realized the word that comes after bizarre.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. There is still a good deal
of information that hasn't been made public. Even if the case itself does not focus on what all those journalists know, they will.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. D Is For Despicable
They all knew, they said nothing.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think they should subpoena him to take his deposition *and* testify in court.
Cheney is clever on the spur of the moment and can keep his thoughts collected for a period of time. But at trial, a sharp attorney who has examined Cheney's deposition testimony, and dissected any subtle contradictions, will be able to cross-examine him more effectively.

I think Cheney will be caught in a lie. More than one, in fact, but the attorneys will need to be able to compare what he said in deposition vs. what he says in court.

Cheney depends upon the force of his personality to convince others of what he's saying. That force will mean nothing in a courtroom. All that matters, we hope, will be the truth.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. In a battle of wits
involving Cheney and Mr. Fitzgerald, the truth wins.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. its Fitz lining up a bunch of witnesses to testify about Libby's memory?
From what I have heard, he has a great ability to remember little details.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I am confident
that Mr. Fitzgerald is fully prepared to confront Libby on this issue. Here is a guy who has prided himself on his memory, and who was carrying notebooks of information on Wilson with him when he went around attacking Wilson. As Wilson wrote: "Over a priod of several months, Libby evidently seized opportunities to rail openly against me as an 'asshole playboy' who went on a boondoggle 'arranged by his CIA wife'...(page 442)

Mr. Libby has a lot of explaining to do. It will become humorous if he tries to mix in examples of his "poor, poor" memory. The jury will loose all respect for him.
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brer cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks for keeping us up-to-date on the Plame matters.
It will be interesting to see if Cheney can keep his lies straight if he testifies.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. He is taking
a huge risk. But he has no choice. He's trapped if he does, and trapped if he doesn't. And when he gets off that witness stand, he will be double trapped.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
23. Beg pardon?
I assume people know by now that Scooter was not on the president's holiday pardon list. I suspect that all the snakes and weasals on the Libby Support Trust who have been lobbying for a holiday pardon are sadly disappointed.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Coals In The Stocking For Him
Edited on Thu Dec-21-06 06:16 PM by Me.
Joy for us.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. No Pardon Because He's Not A Minor Criminal

“WASHINGTON - President Bush issued 16 pardons to minor criminals on Thursday and commuted the sentence of an Iowa man serving time for a drug conviction.

Six of the federal offenses were drug crimes, while others included bank fraud, mail fraud, the acceptance of a kickback, a false statement on a loan application and conspiracy to defraud the government over taxes.

Seven of the 16 received no prison or jail time, instead getting probation or small fines. The longest sentence was nine years, for aiding cocaine distribution, followed by a six-year term for conspiracy to possess marijuana.”cont…

“The list did not include former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, charged in the CIA leak case with perjury and obstruction. Libby, whose trial is scheduled to begin in January, is accused of lying to investigators about his conversations with reporters regarding outed CIA operative Valerie Plame, the wife of an Iraq war critic.: cont…

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/12/21/ap/washington/d8m5h0po0.txt


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. With fiends like these ....
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. What a cast of characters.
Maybe they can get Elliot Abrams to replace Jeanne Kirkpatrick.

Thanks as always for the overview and insight.
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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I would think he's not on the list is because......
Scooter hasn't been convicted yet. My guess is the pardon will come the day after he's convicted.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Conviction Is Not A Pre-requisite To A Pardon
Strangely enough. It's a toss-up as to whether he will or not, but I tend to think not. Why would he? Who's Scooter to him now that he's no longer of any real use and when has he ever done anything anyone else has wanted him to.
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exlrrp Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #44
59. Bush will pardon on his last day
Bush would be a fool to pardon Libby now (yes it could be done, Ford pardoned Nixon without there ever being a trial or conviction) the political fallout would be too great.
I expect him, however, to pardon Libby on his last day when the fallout would be superfluous and the damage would be minimal.
Assuming, he's convicted (about a 50-50 shot) all Libby has to do is stretch his appeal out untill then, an easy task.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. Excellent synopsis to date, thanks for this
Edited on Thu Dec-21-06 06:05 PM by Spazito
In order to keep the outing of Plame, the Wilson's civil suit and the upcoming trial of Libby straight in my mind, I keep remembering what Fitzgerald said at his press conference re the indictment of Libby:

"If you saw a baseball game and you saw a pitcher wind up and throw a fastball and hit a batter right smack in the head and really, really hurt them, you'd want to know why the pitcher did that. You'd wonder whether or not the person just reared back and decided, "I've got bad blood with this batter, he hit two homeruns off me, I'm just going to hit him in the head as hard as I can." You also might wonder whether or not the pitcher just let go of the ball or his foot slipped and he had no idea that any -- throw the ball anywhere near the batter's head. And there's a lot of shades of gray in between. You might learn that you wanted to hit the batter in the back, it hit in the head because he moved. You might want to throw it at his chin, but end up hitting on the head. And what you'd want to do is have as much information as you could. You'd want to know what happened in the dugout, was this guy complaining about the person he threw out? Did he talk to anyone else? What was he thinking? How does he react? All those things, you'd want to know. And then you'd make a decision as to whether this person should be banned from baseball, whether they should be suspended, whether you should nothing at all and just say, "Hey, the person threw a bad pitch, get over it."

In this case, it's a lot more serious than baseball. The damage wasn't to one person. It wasn't to Valerie Wilson, it was done to all of us. As you sit back, you want to learn why was this information going out? Why were people taking this information about Valerie Wilson and giving it to reporters? Why did Mr. Libby say what he did? Why did he tell Judith Miller three times? Why did he tell a Press Secretary on Monday? Why did he tell Mr. Cooper? And was this something where he intended to cause whatever damage was caused or did he intend to do something else? And where are the shades of gray?

And what we have when someone charges obstruction of justice is the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He's trying to figure out what happened and somebody blocked their view. As you sit here now and if you're asking me what his motives were, I can't tell you, we haven't charged it. So what you were saying is the harm in an obstruction investigation is that it prevents us from making the very fine judgments we want to make.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/2005_10_28_fitzgerald_press_conference.pdf

At this point, the outing of Valerie Plame and the Wilson's civil case are not part of the upcoming trial of Libby even though his defense team keeps attempting to 'change the subject' by pretending they are part and parcel of the case.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Yes.
I think that it is important for people to recognize that there have been a number of people tossing sand to keep the investigation from reaching its conclusion. But, as Jimi Hendrix wrote:

"And so castles made of sand slips into the sea, eventually."
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. I can't wait
although these weasels always escape. 2007 should be a good year.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Not always.
We should keep in mind that a lot of criminals were convicted in the Watergate days. And many were incarcerated.

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. True n/t
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
34. I will certainly kick that. - n/t
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. Jeepers, Scooter
Don't take a job you can't handle.

So busy and overworked that he didn't know to ask if what he was doing was legal, let alone decent? If this defense plays well with the jury it'll be a sad day in the history of American Jurisprudence. What a sad state Libby must be in to be reduced to playing this weak hand.

Thanks for the great post H2O Man! :bounce:
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
39. Your post is much appreciated
I learn something new each time I read one of your posts, in this instance your reference to how Scooter's defense is likely to rely on how "busy" and "overworked" he was.

Interesting as well is how the Vice-President may appear on the stand. Which asses will he try to cover? Which shall be exposed?

Without question, this fiasco will provoke much interest as it unfolds in the coming weeks. C-Span will be my number one choice.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Cheney is going to try
to save Scooter. He also recognizes that the media coverage of the Libby case will put the OVP's case for war on trial. It is a sign of how Team Libby recognizes that Scooter is certain that Scooter is going to be convicted, unless Cheney can save him. It's a big gamble for Cheney, that might indicate he is concerned that Scooter would make a plea if Dick didn't step up to the plate.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. Trouble is, I am worried about Cheney's health
Holiday food, drink and hunting to say nothing of possibly having enough sense to know bush is sinking faster than he is, that Congress is gunning for him...... trouble all around him
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. Scooter: A Man Who Knew Too Much ....
http://www.citizensforethics.org/press/pressclip.php?view=4307


Scooter Libby's Defense: A Man Who Knew Too Much
Lawyers for former White House aide prepare to argue their client was too busy to remember Plame conversations
By Emma Schwartz, Legal Times

December 18, 2006

He doesn’t deny what he said to investigators may have been wrong, but he believes it was a simple mistake, not an intentional lie. That contention will be the central focus in the upcoming trial of the vice president’s former chief of staff.

Just a month away, the criminal trial of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby Jr. in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia is one of the most anticipated in recent years and will likely bring a number of high-level Bush administration officials — including Vice President Dick Cheney — to the witness stand.

The courthouse is already preparing for the avalanche of attention. Following the example of the Enron trial in Houston earlier this year, court officials are wiring the building to allow reporters wireless access for blogging in a special media room that will have a closed-circuit video feed of the proceedings.

But as the Jan. 16 trial date draws near, court documents make clear the case will hinge on why Libby’s account to federal investigators of his conversations with three reporters — Time’s Matthew Cooper, NBC’s Tim Russert, and Judith Miller, formerly of The New York Times — differs from their testimony.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. So They're Going To Try & Impeach Addington?
That should be a :popcorn: moment. Cheney's old boy taking down his new one? Also, I thought Libby wasn't going to testify? Really, does he think he can pull this off, or is he going to resort to his Bond alter ego?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. Libby may have to
testify. In normal circumstances, good attorneys would try to keep him off the stand. And, while the judge would instruct the jury that it is the accused's right, and that they are not to draw any conclusions from the defendant's not testifying, I've yet to meet a juror who doesn't wonder why the accused refused to look them in the eye and say, "I'm not guilty."
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-21-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
46. Many thanks for analysis of this...and bringing in Waxman/Conyers...
A little more than a year ago, three key members of the House (John Conyers, Henry Waxman, and Maurice Hinchey) sent a letter to the Vice President’a office in which they asked the (sic) Cheney to ‘make yourself available to appear before Congress to explain the details and reasons for yur office’s involvement – and your personal involvement – in the disclosure of Valerie Plame’s identity as a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operative’."

At the time, VP Cheney regarded Congressional attempts to provide oversight with utter contempt. He may find that things are going to change starting in January.


Good points and call for activists to "keep feet to fire."

Thanks!
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
50. as usual, tip my hat to you kind sir
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
51. KR... Thank you sir. This is my baseline for teasing out the
Edited on Fri Dec-22-06 12:09 AM by autorank
unintended truth offered up by the corporate media.

Best wishes and a hahppy new year.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
52. K&R
2007 should be a very interesting year.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Morning Kick. Thanks H2O
:toast:
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
57. Thanks for this, H20 Man.
One of the most fascinating aspects of this trial will be the fact that Cheney Himself will finally have to answer questions. Even though his attorneys will prepare him well, he`ll still have to negotiate a dangerous mine field. Cheney`s normal lordliness will do him no good when he`s forced to connect some potentially damaging dots.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. How is an attorney suppose to prepare a client for court?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. They review
questions that are most likely to be asked by both the prosecutor and defense, and rehearse answers.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
58. Is there any reason why Cheney would not testify?
Something seems to me that Cheney will avoid testifying. He could have some serious health issues, maybe a possible heart attack.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
65. Cheney will have to resign if he tells the truth. If he lies, he goes to jail.
I think he'll choose his new estate on the Eastern Shore over a cell in Levenworth.

This could happen as soon as the day he testifies. I'm sure key staff in OVP and EOP have already made contingency plans, one way or the other.

This is what the Plame case has all been working up to: getting Cheney under oath. The Vice President's answer to one question,in particular, will determine everything:

"Mr. Cheney, did you discuss with your Chief of Staff, I. Lewis Libby, the release of Valerie Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer to members of the press prior to July 11, 2003?"

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Right.
Cheney can be tied to the efforts to "counter" Wilson by the release of parts of the NIE. That looks bad for Dick if he attempts to minimize the significance of the "Wilson problem." Where he faces the most serious problems will be in explaining what he discussed with Scooter on the jet, and why he made the decision to cut his press rep out of the picture. I believe she was witness to the discussion, and will be one of Mr. Fitzgerald's strongest witnesses.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Clever of Dick to hire his former attorney as his current COS
After they got off AF-2, the first stop for Scooter was to have a chat with David Addington, then Cheney's attorney. No doubt that concerned the legality of what the Veep just told him to do (out Plame). But, Addington can't be forced to testify against his former client, Cheney - or can he?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Sure.
That's why both Bush and Cheney hired private attorneys when requested to chat with Mr. Fitzgerald. A private attorney has the attorney-client privilege. A government employee like Addington does not. John Dean was an example of this in the Watergate era.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Cheney may really believe that he'll be an unimpeachable witness.
In both senses of the word, we know better.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
69. If it apparent the trial is going badly for Scooter, do you think he may turn?
Or will he be willing to go to the graybar hotel rather than cut a deal and sing?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Good question.
It's important to remember that he was very, very close to cutting a deal in the weeks before being indicted. He would have had to do a couple things that he found objectionable. But incarceration isn't a thing that the average government official handles well. I am actually surprised that he hasn't taken the deal now. I thought he would by Christmas. Cheney's agreeing to testify may be why he hasn't.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-22-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. The stakes may actually be too high
If he sang and it shed light on the WHIG and the OSP and the whole conspiracy to bring the country to war based on lies and deception you're talking about a lot of hard time for a lot of people, and possible war crimes charges. I would assume he would not be able to plea his way out of all of those charges, plus I doubt the BFEE would allow him to breathe long enough to let it happen, and he probably knows it.
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