Do you have to be Christian to be charitable?

[shireen]

I was listening to Thom Hartman's Friday show archived at White Rose, and was utterly infuriated by that "war on Christmas" guest during the top of the second hour. (http://www.whiterosesociety.org/content/hartmann/HartmannShow-(22-12-2006)b.mp3)

How dare that knucklehead , and so many other pious self-righteous right-wingers claim that Republicans give more to charity than Democrats?!!! He even has the audacity to back up that claim with a study. Geez! What the hell kind of study comes to that conclusion?

Most of all, I am really pissed off by their notion that you have to be Christian to be charitable. It implies that Christianity teaches you about kindness and compassion. So does that mean you were born without a clue and had to learn about it in Sunday School or church?

Here's a newsflash for all you warriors defending that imaginary war on Christmas in your heads: compassion is an innate part of being humans. If you have to be formally taught to be compassionate at your church, you are seriously screwed up and need therapy.

Also, why is all that giving, charity, etc., such a big deal around Christmas? Shouldn't it be an all-year thing? Opps, I forgot ... end-of-year tax write-offs. Silly me.


My apologies to the real Christians reading this post. It's a shame how those sick right-wing crazies have hijacked something pure and good, and perverted it into their own twisted image of God.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[MountainLaurel]

1. Many believe that

How many times have you heard people ask how children will be taught moral behavior if they're not indoctrinated into religion?

[uppityperson]

2. fundamentalists of all types are nuts.

[Union Thug]

3. I'm not sure how or why people have been tricked into thinking that

we are incapable of morality without being blackmailed into it by some big-daddy in the sky. But the fact is, from an anthropological perspecitve, cooperative, nurturing behavior is a one of the reasons the species was able to flourish. It's an adaptive advantage that, if my old college classes still hold true, was even seen in Neanderthals to some degree (badly injured individuals that show signs of long term healing impossible without a nurturing social environment).

[Cleita]

7. I agree. It's part of our species' wiring.

In hunter/gatherer societies, it seems that whatever the hunters and gatherers bring in is shared with everyone, even though many like small children, the elderly or handicapped individuals could not participate in the work load equally.

I believe we need to examine what we can do to be true to our roots in our civilization.

[gratuitous]

4. Not at all

But I find that my charitable actions and impulses are magnified by being part of a faith community. By myself, I'd probably do about 25 or so soup packets for the local neighbors-helping-neighbors agency. As part of my church, we put together over 500 soup packets, have a lot of fun, share the time and the effort, build the ties of our community, and hundreds of more people are helped.

[shireen]

9. good for you...

working as a community to do good is fun. Mosques, Hindu temples, and Buddhist organizations, here and around the world do it too.

But it does not diminish the individual contributions from non-religious people who care about the less fortunate in our society. We may not know each other, but our silent contributions are just as important.

[Cleita]

5. I heard the same show and I also read the article that mentioned

that Republicans were more charitable than Democrats. What the report doesn't mention is that Republicans who donate are much richer than Democrats and they do it for the tax deduction more than anything else. Also, they tend to donate to top heavy charities like the Red Cross that support an expensive administration usually of other wealthy Republicans. They also know that what they donate would be much less than they would pay in taxes for similar welfare services.

I personally believe that charity encourages more poverty because not everyone who needs it is targeted by charities' often narrow focuses. I believe social programs and safety nets like our Northern European neighbors have, are far more effective in lifting people out of poverty and addressing their needs than hit and miss charities.

But this is where we liberals believe that we should pay taxes to implement these programs and let the government administer them that can do it more cost effectively and widespread than charities can. Charities must spend a large amount of money in fund raising, money that could be used directly for health care and food stamps for instance.

I know that Thom seemed to be caught off his game. But if anyone brings this up again, it seems to me that the study in question and I'm sorry I don't remember who put it out because I dismissed it as crap, please keep those above things I mentioned in mind.

[Union Thug]

8. I've seen the kind of shit our local churches deliver to my neighbors...

who are disabled and desperately in need. I've seen the half-rotten vegetables, the expired packaged food, and the smug assholes who roll up in their 50,000 dollar SUVs to deliver this poison.

We are MUCH better off providing assistance as a collective action via our government.

[mia]

10. Probably the charitable giving is the "tithe" that the churches

require to prove that you're really a Christian.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

6. Certainly not, and there are many "Christians"

who are not.

However, I personally believe that my good works are magnified and multiplied by acting in concert with others, and for me, right now, that means Church.

[gollygee]

11. My husband and I are not religious and we give

a good amount of money to charity each year.

[FyurFly]

12. Bill Gates is an Atheist

So is Warren Buffet.

[NYC]

15. I hadn't known that.

Thanks for the information.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

Lots of atheists contribute to the poor.

[Blue Gardener]

13. I believe being charitable

Also includes everyday kindnesses shown to friends, neighbors and strangers on a daily basis. Holding doors open, letting people in line with only a couple of items at the grocery checkout, tipping your waiter appropriately, among many other things. You certainly don't have to be a Christian to do these things.

[RC]

22. I tried to argue your points with a Conservative Christian friend

and she would have none of it.
That doesn't count. Going to church, praying, etc., is what is important. And Christ was her Saviour also.

[Double T]

14. You don't have to be affiliated with ANYTHING to be charitable..........

BUT as usual the neocon RW fundamentalists WEAR EVERYTHING they do on their sleeve(s). Thank you to ALL who give to charities, the needy and the less fortunate, specially THOSE that can least afford to give anything, yet still do.

[gollygee]

16. The other thing is

that some of the charity groups I give to might not be looked upon favorably by them anyway. Perhaps they don't think a donation to Planned Parenthood or PFLAG is charitable anyway?

[spoony]

17. Who said this?

Who literally said, "you have to be a Christian to be charitable" or "only Christians are charitable"? It's one thing to take issue with the "study," that's fine, I've read summaries of it and wasn't terribly impressed. But I haven't run into, anywhere, the statement in your OP, even from the wing-nuttiest of wingnuts. So I have to wonder, call me a pessimist, if this thread wasn't just a tee-ball set up for people to bash Christians based on something no one ever said. If so, it worked.

[gollygee]

18. What I've heard is that

"If it weren't for Christians, there wouldn't be any charity." Someone I used to work with told me that every single local charitable organization was Christian. But after some discussion, it seemed his definition of what constituted "charitable" was different than mine. Groups that help women with reproductive health needs, and groups that help the GLBT community, for instance, didn't count.

Churches do seem to organize a lot of charity events and create organizations for charitable reasons. But certainly people who are not religious also are charitable.

[sandnsea]

21. Have to be Christian to be moral

I've absolutely heard that said, repeatedly. Why do you think these people want prayer in classrooms? They think taking prayer and bible study out took morality out at the same time.

Giving is a moral value. Consequently, it's not much of a leap to 'you have to be Christian to be charitable.'

[shireen]

23. wake up...

they say it all the time with their self-righteous attitudes and actions.

You didn't read my post carefully ... I'm not here to bash Christians. I'm bashing the right-wing dimwits who have a mean-spirited perverted interpretation of Christianity.

[TahitiNut]

19. "Charitable" means more than just money or goods.

Consider, for a moment, how often the "benefit of the doubt" is freely given.

[China_cat]

20. I've heard many a 'christian' say

(after the holidays are over) "Boy, am I glad that's done for another year" after bitching about how much they had to do for and with their church...that delivering food baskets and manning food kitchens for the homeless just took away so much time from their families that it killed the holiday for them. But it only comes once a year so they won't have to think about it again until then.

[Az]

24. Compassion and Altruism are human nature

Religions often utilize these aspects in order to ingratiate themself to further cultures by amplifying them.

But it is part of who we already are. Its an evolutionary adaption. Our species leverages its ability to learn as an advantage. To maximize this trait it is necissary to remain with parents for longer than species that rely more on instinct would. Thus the drive to bound with family members and others is much higher in our species than instinctive species.

A further adaption in the form of Mirror Neurons is found in high order mammals as well. These Neurons internalize the actions and conditions of others. That is what we see others going through we internalize and feel towards ourself as well. Watch someone cut themself and we wince in pain as well. Watch someone get kicked in a sensitive spot and we double over as well. Watch someone throw a baseball and we learn the actions by imagining ourself doing it as well.

This is the source of our altruism and empathy for one another. Not some old doctrine. Civilization would not exist if we were not a species that was concerned about one another. Without a drive to work and strive together there simply would be no society. Just individuals wandering around.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. No, you don't have to be anything to be charitable

Actually, I think if you look into most, if not all, religions and philosophies, you find charity to be considered a virtue.

As for whether Dems or Reps give more--is there a fund drive for a charity at Free Republic?

[Zhade]

26. "Shouldn't it be an all-year thing?"

YES!

That question has been bothering me this entire holiday season - why do we wait until near the end of the year to underline charity as good?

(And to your OP question - NO. Religion does not equate to morality; at best it doesn't get in the way of the morality already inherent in a person.)

[Lisa]

27. this agnostic just dropped off $200 of donations at a church charity

It's a homeless shelter/food bank, and they were desperate for stuff like shaving kits, toothbrushes, shampoo, tampons, and toilet paper. I consider it a birthday present for Mr. Joshua Josephson (one of the many names of the guy whom "Christmas" is supposed to celebrate).

[demigoddess]

28. Others give just as much or more, but they do not shout it from the

rooftops and make sure they get credit for it. Most christians I know NEVER shut up about what they give to the poor.

[SoyCat]

29. My husband and I are atheist and we are both charitable and quite moral. Religious people don't

have a lock on morality. In fact, it seems as though a lot of Christians seem to be lacking in morals.

[FooFootheSnoo]

30. no, you don't

Christians that say this kind of thing obviously haven't read the story of the Good Samaritan.

[Generic Brad]

31. Charity is not exclusively synonymous with Christianity

I have always been extremely irked when church-going relatives make the wild accusation that one cannot be charitable if they are not affiliated with an organized religion. Churches do not have a lock on charity, tithing, or acts of kindness.

[Sapphire Blue]

32. A rather long answer...

Something I posted previously, might be about the same "knucklehead" (I didn't listen to the mp3 in your OP)... Philanthropy Expert: Conservatives Are More Generous; Fr. Stanley & Fr. Henriot say...

Philanthropy Expert: Conservatives Are More Generous
By Frank Brieaddy
Religion News Service

SYRACUSE, N.Y. -- Syracuse University professor Arthur C. Brooks is about to become the darling of the religious right in America -- and it's making him nervous.

The child of academics, raised in a liberal household and educated in the liberal arts, Brooks has written a book that concludes religious conservatives donate far more money than secular liberals to all sorts of charitable activities, irrespective of income.

In the book, he cites extensive data analysis to demonstrate that values advocated by conservatives -- from church attendance and two-parent families to the Protestant work ethic and a distaste for government-funded social services -- make conservatives more generous than liberals.

(snip)

The book's basic findings are that conservatives who practice religion, live in traditional nuclear families and reject the notion that the government should engage in income redistribution are the most generous Americans, by any measure.

Conversely, secular liberals who believe fervently in government entitlement programs give far less to charity. They want everyone's tax dollars to support charitable causes and are reluctant to write checks to those causes, even when governments don't provide them with enough money.

Continued @ http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html

SOCIAL JUSTICE vs. CHARITY
THROUGH OUR FINGERS
Ronald Stanley, O.P.

"Two men were fishing in a river. Late in the afternoon they started cooking some of the fish they had caught. Suddenly they heard the cries of a man being swept down the river. Immediately the men jumped into the river, swam out to the man, and were gradually able to pull him ashore. As they were on shore catching their breath, they heard the cries of a woman being swept down the river. They jumped back into the water, made their way out to the woman, and slowly brought her to shore. They were exhausted but happy to have saved both people. Then they heard to cries of a child being swept downstream. One of the men started back into the water to get the child; the other held back. "Aren't you going to save the child?" asked the first. "You go get the child," responded the second, "I'm going to go upstream to find out why so many people are falling into the river."

Charity is happy to spend all day pulling victims out of the river. Social justice asks: why are so many people falling into the river? Is there a pathway or a bridge in need of repair? Is there someone throwing people into the river? When there is a pattern of people repeatedly falling victim, social justice seeks to discover and remedy the root causes of the problem.

Charity does the important work of meeting the immediate needs of suffering people, for food, clothing, housing, medicine, etc. Most everyone today approves and praises charity.

Social justice, on the other hand, dares to ask troubling questions: if the earth's resources are meant to meet the needs of all the earth's children, why are 20% of the world's population consuming over 80% of the earth's resources, leaving 80% of the world living in misery? Isn't it only just that the privilege few live more simply, so that the masses might simply live?

(snip)

Our politicians smooth the pathways and bridges of the privileged, to the neglect of the poor. Little wonder then that so many of the poor keep falling into the river. Their falling is not simply an accident. They are not "falling through the cracks." They are falling through our fingers.

Continued @ http://www.ramapo.edu/studentlife/ministry/catholic_Ministry/Articles/social_justice.htm

Gospel requires justice not charity, says Jesuit writer
-10/05/06

An expert on Christian social action, Fr Peter Henriot, is currently on a tour of Australia for a series of talks and workshops on the relevance of social justice in today's age of globalisation and terror, reports the Uniya Jesuit Social Justice Unit.

Co-author of a Catholic best-seller on the ‘pastoral cycle’ (see-analyse-act), Henriot will be teaming up with Jesuit lawyer Fr Frank Brennan in Sydney later this week. The book, originally published in the 1980s, is called Social Analysis: Linking Faith and Justice.

Fr Henriot, has lived for nearly 20 years in Zambia - one of the poorest countries in the world. He argues that to respond effectively to social issues, Christians and people of good will need to move from a model of charity to a model of justice at the core of their living and acting.

“We will never deal with the impact of globalisation on poor countries in Africa if we don't do good social analysis that reveals both the systemic problems and the structural hopes,” he declares.

Continued @ http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060510social.shtml

And, furthermore, HUMAN RIGHTS DAY (10 DECEMBER 2006) | FIGHTING POVERTY IS A MATTER OF OBLIGATION, NOT OF CHARITY

Human Rights Day (10 December 2006)

On 10 December 1948, the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which has become a universal standard for defending and promoting human rights. Every year on 10 December, Human Rights Day marks the adoption of the Universal Declaration. On Human Rights Day it is celebrated around the globe that "All human beings are born with equal and inalienable rights and fundamental freedoms".

This year Human Rights Day focuses on fighting poverty as a matter of obligation, not of charity. Poverty is a cause and a product of human rights violations. It is this double edge that makes poverty probably the gravest human rights challenge in the world. The links between human rights and poverty should be obvious: People whose rights are denied -- victims of discrimination or persecution, for example -- are more likely to be poor. Generally they find it harder or impossible to participate in the labour market and have little or no access to basic services and resources. Meanwhile, the poor in many societies cannot enjoy their rights to education, health and housing simply because they cannot afford them. And poverty affects all human rights: for example, low income can prevent people from accessing education -- an "economic and social" right -- which in turn inhibits their participation in public life -- a "civil and political" right -- and their ability to influence policies affecting them.

Governments and those in a position of authority can, indeed are obliged to, do something about poverty. They have committed to it by overwhelmingly accepting a number of human rights treaties and by signing on to the international consensus to make poverty history, through the Millennium Declaration and the Millennium Development Goals, as well as most recently the 2005 World Summit Outcome. The realization of human rights - including the fight against poverty -- is a duty, not a mere aspiration.

Source: Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights

http://www.hrea.org/feature-events/human-rights-day.php

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 25

1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

And, in answer to your question "Do you have to be Christian to be charitable?" No, you just have to have a heart. And you need a sense of social justice to discover and remedy the root causes of the problem... to keep more people from falling in the river.