So you don't like Fundamentalists...

[Jackpine Radical]

(Jackpine’s thoughts for Christmas Eve)

Well, from what I’ve seen, if you’re ever really down and out, you’d do a lot better going to a fundamentalist charity than to a mainstream liberal church for help. It’s the local fundamentalists who run the homeless shelter, and who reach out to the shaky, unstable folks just out of drug rehab, and it’s the fundamentalists who run jail ministries, reaching out with messages of hope and love to society’s losers. I don’t especially care for the theologically childish and often intolerant fundie message. On a philosophical level I have more affinity with Buddhism, paganism and deism than I do with Biblical literalism, but as someone who has spent a lot of years in contact with criminals, homeless people, addicts and others of that class whom Marx called the Lumpenproletariat, I have to come to see that on the local scene at least, the fundamentalists have done a lot more good than all those enlightened, upper-middle-class, mainline Methodists, Episcopalians, UCCers and Unitarians rolled together. I think the fundies are often self-righteous, always simplistic, and generally destructive with their attitudes on homosexuality, choice, and the like, but by God (pardon the expression) many of them do reach out to their neighbors, to the ones most in physical and spiritual need, with love and charity.

[Taverner]

1. If we're grading the churches on their charities

The Catholics would be the only ones who get an A out here...

[Maestro]

2. Totally agree and disagree with you at the same time.

I detest fundies so much so that I rarely want to call myself a Christian but I disagree with your assessment on helping others. Perhaps this has been your experience but most fundies are so self-absorbed in their beliefs that they rarely have time to do any meaningful reaching out to the communities in need.

Here are just two websites for the progressive Christian, all have humanitarian work.

http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/index.html
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

[eauclaireliberal]

6. This is why seperation of Church and State are necessary

Below is my LF post on the subject of fundies vs. religionthis "poll" from the Guardian:

Loaded poll. There is a big difference between religion and extremism (or fundamentalism). Most of us know that-and I believe that there are plenty of Brits who say the same thing and ignore this stupid crap.

Of course, I have only been saying this shit for years now, which continues to fall upon the deaf ears of the neocon right and the radical left. Makes me want to throw in the towel sometimes but I refuse to let a bunch of bloodthirsty assholes push me away from my faith.

"...Muslim fundmentalists, Jewish fundmentalists, Christian fundmentalists all killing one another because God thought it was a good idea."
-George Carlin

[Lucky Luciano]

18. CArlin rocks - he made me a liberal actually

"...Muslim fundmentalists, Jewish fundmentalists, Christian fundmentalists all killing one another because God thought it was a good idea."
-George Carlin

"Do you believe in god?"

"No."

BANG! Dead!

"Do You believe in god?"

"Yes."

"Do you believe in my god?"

"No."

BANG! Dead!

"MY GOD HAS A BIGGER DICK THAN YOUR GOD!"

:spray: :spray: :spray:

[yardwork]

3. I think that it varies from place to place

In my community, the Interfaith group of churches - led by some extremely liberal, main-line Episcopal churches and several large Catholic parishes - are the most involved and committed with soup kitchens, hunger relief, homelessness, etc. This is not to say that many other churches in my community don't help as well.

In my experience, the level of charity and commitment varies from congregation to congregation, not from denomination to denomination.

That said, as a lesbian I don't find the homophobic views of many Christian churches to be welcoming to me or affirming of my existence as God made me, which is why I am a Pagan.

[China_cat]

12. Around here the homeless shelters and soup kitchens

are manned by the Quakers, the Unitarians and the Congregationalists. Try to get the Baptists or any of the evangelicals to do anything...they look at you like you're nuts and tell you 'we have our own programs to help OUR OWN'. Which means that if you don't at least attend their services regularly, you get squat.

Oh yes, TRY to do prison outreach in SC if you are -not- fundamentalist christian. Took a court order for some of the more liberal churches to even be allowed into the county jail.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. I have attended services regularly.

I have attended Baptist and other services (joined their churches and was a member) regularly, and even attended a synagogue. I asked them to help me find a JOB, NOT charity, and they wouldn't lift a finger for me. I have education and skills. I'm no street sweeper or rag picker.

As a result I'm a secular humanist Unitarian, and think Christianity is a backwards religion that has no relevance or ability to help people with their problems nowadays because of its punitive, guilt and fear based theology. At least the Unitarians weren't making me feel like crawling in a hole and wanting to die because the Christians were telling me I was a worthless piece of shit for breathing (not in those exact words).

[knitter4democracy]

37. That's how our town is, too.

The liberal churches do far more work for the poor here.

I'm sorry you've been attacked for being who you are. May your Soltice time be blessed with peace and joy in the return of the light.

[LiberalArkie]

4. Opps.. It is the fundies who respond with "I'll pray for you"

The fundies are the ones to come up with "I don't give cash to the poor, they will just use it to buy drugs". The fundies are the ones who say to a homeless person, "Just drive to our food pantry, it is open from 10 AM to 11Am on Thursday, and it is only 10 miles from here."

[last1standing]

5. It's the fundies' voting habits and "beliefs" that put the "losers" in that situation.

Their charity is no compensation for the cruelty they support and inflict. Also, I don't know in what context or which area you've have contact with these people, but I've known many, many liberal charities who managed to help "society's losers" without cramming hate down their throats as the fundies do.

All and all, I have to say that was a very ill-thought O/P.

Happy Holidays.

[noamnety]

13. ding ding ding

denying birth control and abortions to rape victims, and then giving her family an occasional free meal isn't the kind of support I pull out the cheerleading pompoms for.

[Bluebear]

19. I could not agree with you more. nt

[Ayesha]

7. Churches/individuals vs big advocacy groups

There's a big difference between regular, Joe Average Christians (even conservative ones) and the big groups like Focus on the Family and their leaders. If someone is actually living their faith by helping the poor and being a kind, tolerant person, they are not in the same category as assholes like Jerry Falwell. I know a man who fits your description, and while his preachiness and wearing his religion on his sleeve get irritating at times, he really does seek to do as Jesus did. He has been wonderful to my partner and I, even though I'm sure his denomination disapproves of homosexuality. He is honest and hardworking to a fault, making him stand out among the too-many lazy and crooked people in his line of work (general contractor). He has really taught ME not to make judgments and assumptions about Christians.

[Elidor]

8. From my own experiences...

Probably the best shelter in the Atlanta metro area is run by the relatively liberal M.U.S.T. Ministries - Methodists United in Service and Trust. Great people who truly care and do not proselytize in any way.

Contrast them with the Union Mission downtown, who require attendance for a 2-hour sermon each night in order to stay there. The lack of liberal shelters in your area does not make the fundies any more altruistic or congenial. Their program is one of coercion, borne out of a desperation for warm bodies. They use the homeless. They are cheap-shit bastards who use the promise of a warm meal and safe bed to shove their goddamend religion down people's throats. Fuck the fundies.

[Wiley50]

9. Have You ever Had To Sing Hymns For Your Supper?

I have.
Yes I was Hungry
and Yes I did It

No, It is just not right

" Just let me bend your ear and mind
for an hour or two.
Then we'll feed you"

[knitter4democracy]

38. That's evil.

I helped out in a men's homeless shelter for a week one summer in high school, one run by the evangelical church I was in at the time. First of all, our youth leader made all of use eat there, too, which was a seriously eye-opening experience (horrible food much of the time), and secondly, we had to make the food, clean the bathrooms and all over inside, and all sorts of things. Secondly, when we ate there, we prayed to ourselves--no one made anyone pray or anything. Once a guy got his food, he could eat when he sat down. There was no crazy hymn singing first. Those guys were tired (many had jobs), and that would've been cruel.

[nashville_brook]

10. anyone know where statistics on such might be found?

are charitable donations reported?

[nosmokes]

11. my buddhist sangha does prison outreach,

and i know of others that do as well. not to take anything away from anyone else that's working with those in need. but personally i have folks of all stripes helping out. but there are times times that helping hand from a church comes with strings attached. if you wish to feed a hungry man, then feed him. if he wants to listen to your sales pitch give him the option, don't make it a condition of getting food in his belly.

[evilkumquat]

14. Jim Jones (of Kool-Aid Fame) Started Out with Charity

By praying* on the most needy with food, shelter and religion, Jim Jones helped amass enough followers to become a major force in local and state politics before his paranoia drove him to Guyana and one of the worst late-night drinking parties since the Duke Lacrosse team's back in March.

On one hand, it is good that the needy are fed and sheltered, but it cannot help matters to fill the country with people who feel obligated toward churches that have spent the last fifty years or more trying to roll back civil rights gains and blocking further progress for the gay and lesbian community.

Unfortunately, if given the choice between starving people to death and providing shock-troops for the Fundies, a Liberal has to grit his teeth and say, "Enjoy the soup."

Evil Kumquat

*Get it?

[uppityperson]

15. I disagree with a lot of this.

First of all, Methodists, Espiscopalians, UCCers and Unitarians are not "all those enlightened, upper-middle-class". At least not the ones I have experienced.

Secondly, the groups I have seen reaching out to their neighbors have been these groups, at least places I've lived in W.WA and AK and those I come in contact with doing relief work in the Gulf Coast.

Thirdly, having to pray or sing or listen to preaching for a meal or a place to sleep seems more demeaning to those in need than being given a ride to these places (and others like voting stations, rehab places, job services, child care) without being preached at (fundies vs non-fundies).

Fourthly, "fundamentalists" are found in every group, even liberal groups.

Merry Happy Today.

[nashville_brook]

16. "Charity's Political Divide" (book supports OP's theory)

http://www.philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm

Charity's Political Divide: Republicans give a bigger share of their incomes to charity, says a prominent economist

In Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism (Basic Books), Arthur C. Brooks finds that religious conservatives are far more charitable than secular liberals, and that those who support the idea that government should redistribute income are among the least likely to dig into their own wallets to help others.

Some of his findings have been touched on elsewhere by other scholars, but Mr. Brooks, a professor of public administration at Syracuse University, breaks new ground in amassing information from 15 sets of data in a slim 184-page book (not including the appendix) that he proudly describes as "a polemic."

"If liberals persist in their antipathy to religion," Mr. Brooks writes, "the Democrats will become not only the party of secularism, but also the party of uncharity."

[ret5hd]

20. I don't consider "charity" as...

somebody dropping a $5000 check into the collection plate at a fundy mega-church where it gets spent on mega-large plasma screen tv's and mega-doses of mega-meth and mega-male hookers etc etc etc...

but that's just me.

[nashville_brook]

22. yah, i don't either -- i wonder how reliable Brooks' book is for keeping this straight

i have no idea whether this book is worth the read -- it's the only info i could find on camparing charitable donations. my guess is that the subject matter engenders bias. this guy seems to start with the thesis that liberals support government works against poverty ergo liberals choose not to give thru a religious organization.

and WOOOOOO -- it's not like this is an unattractive strategy for giving! i have absolutely NO FAITH (teehee) in a religious organization to be on the up-and-up with what they actually DO with the money.

so -- great point. maybe conservatives give more to churches... but there's still no evidence as to what gets done with the money.

[tsuki]

24. Brooks has been criticized for lumping all "Christians" into the

Old Testament mode, and lumping all "liberals" into the atheistic mode.

As a New Testament Christian, I find that appalling.

[nashville_brook]

30. that's an interesting criticism -- like, no one should be happy with his lumping

[yardwork]

28. That is a good point.

In my area, a number of non-denominational fundamentalist congregations have formed and built enormous multi-million dollar churches and private schools - for themselves. They have very expensive fund-raising parties to raise more money to build more churches and private schools for themselves. Technically, these are all "charitable donations" - in the millions of dollars - but the only people who benefit are those who belong to the churches, which function essentially like country clubs.

I know members of these churches and they are all extremely right-wing supporters of W. Their idea of helping out after Katrina was to meet refugees at the airport with baggies of toothbrushes and soap. That's pretty much the extent of their charity unless you join their churches. And they don't believe that the government should give a dime to help anyone.

[Maestro]

41. I haven't read that, but I do remember when that came out.

However, it would seem to me, and I admit I have no data to back me up, but it would seem to me that repukes and fundie repukes probably make more money since they seem to to be corporate elite so, in turn, they give more money to charity. Nonetheless, I strongly believe that progressive Christians, rich and poor, are more apt to do the hands-on dirty work while still giving some of what they make to charity. Does that article cover non-monetary charitable work?

[LisaLynne]

17. I think something to consider is also ...

the size of the relative different spirital and non-spritual paths. Most people in this country consider themselves Christian. The big churches have the money to set up clinics and soup kitchens and they also have the standing the community and with the governments to get into prison and do work like that. I know of a local pagan woman in my community who struggled for YEARS for the right to work with those in prison. When they finally allowed her, it only lasted for a few months before a big mega-church in the area started causing trouble and she had to stop (for the moment -- she's still fighting). So, I think what you need to look at is that a lot of these non-Christian groups are small and do a lot of things, but they don't have the people nor the money to do HUGE operations, so most of the time, it goes unnoticed. Which is fine with most of them. I don't know if that would be fine with the Fundies.

[NMMNG]

21. Uh huh

The fundie church my sister works for is too busy shelling out $7K for the fixings to allow them to project their hymns via PowerPoint (rather than making the congregants use their hymnals as usual) and another $15K to move their perfectly functional kitchen to a "more convenient location" to bother with paltry charitable concerns. I can't understand why she continues to work there when she's obviously uncomfortable with them and their beliefs to the point that she attends services elsewhere.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. Well, the only jail minister I know

is a Sufi imam who works with inmates at San Quentin. This imam is a progressive/liberal. Only doctor I know who treats folks for free goes to a Unity Church (liberal, in case you're not familiar with it). Only folks I know who open their house on Christmas for anyone in the neighborhood are a group of pagan/Sufi/whoknowswhat/Greens. So I guess my experience is different than yours.

[SidDithers]

25. Fundies are bribing society's most vulnerable...

in order to recruit them into their pyramid scheme.

There are plenty of social service organizations out there doing "good works" without conditions attached.

Sid

[Bluebear]

26. List of dominionist charities to avoid:

http://community.livejournal.com/dark_christian/245640.html

"..but anyways, here's some notes on whom to donate to and whom not to donate to in regards to NOLA relief and dominionist groups. (Very sadly, dominionist groups will run charity groups taking advantage of people who may genuinely want to help. Most of the time, "help" from these groups occurs with substantial strings.)

I am posting this list for folks to not only know of good groups to donate to in regards to NOLA relief, but also so that you can notify workplaces of both the "good guys" and groups to avoid (due to dominionist links). (There are far worthier charities than dominionist groups, and I'd MUCH rather my money go to them than to support "stealth evangelism" and the like)"

(Listing at link)

[ismnotwasm]

29. Not necessarily so

Not at all. The shelters and the food banks around here aren't run by fundies. Some of the volunteers may believe that way, but there are many liberals as well. The crisis line volunteers tend to be liberal, and the outreach for HIV/AIDS definitely is liberal.

I know several Catholic churches that provide food on certain days for the homeless. And Catholic Community Services is always an available resource. Catholics tend to run either way politically. Lutheran churches, also mainstream-- have services available. (One Lutheran church was showing "An Inconvienent Truth" for free on Thursdays) As do The United Church of Christ. We also have a Church Council that is composed of 62 different congregations. Tolerance and diversity is one of the themes as well as help for the poor, and "the down and out" They may not all believe the same, but they've found commonality in certain Christan concepts

I, personally am agnostic/atheist. Any of these places would welcome me.

I do have a friend who is a crazy fucking fundamentalist. He believes in the young earth bullshit,(the main reason I call him crazy) is dead set against stem cell research, refuses to buy any products that give to charities like the United Way-- he thinks they "support" abortion-- yada yada yada-- straight down the conservative line. We talk about once every 3-4 years and avoid certain subjects. I did bring up Bill Moyers "Is God Green" (thank you Sapphire Blue) to find a common ground last time I talked to him and he agreed that the environment should be a Christian cause, but "the environmental lobby has made it political"

He is also the pastor of a small multi-ethnic church in a poverty and crime ridden community. He and his wife have adopted an abused child of a junkie, as well as a couple of other unwanted throw-away children. He makes sure there is food for the poor on Sunday. He lets people with no where else to go sleep in the church. He practices his Christianity the best way he knows how. He has never crammed his beliefs down my throat, although I'm sure he thinks--he HAS to think-- I am going to burn in hell for eternity once I die. I'm sure he prays for me.

[Philosoraptor]

31. No. I don't. They infest my family & my government & my society

[ret5hd]

32. Well, Jackpine...any thoughts on these replys so far???

[Jackpine Radical]

33. I'm certainly encouraged to find that liberal churches elsewhere

are apparently better at charity than the ones in my immediate environment.

I'm not a Christian at all, and have no particular axe to grind on this whetstone, except insofar as I prefer liberal theology in any tradition to the conservativce forms; in fact, I was rather distressed by the observation that the conservative Christians seem to be better at charitable works than more liberal people. I was thinking about certain specific instances in the area where I live that seem to validate my assertion.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. Self delete. Dupe. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

35. I don't subscribe to that being the case.

While I'm certain there are Christian Right fundamentalists (the folks driving the theocratic agenda in the US) who spend large amounts of time helping the poor, working in soup kitchens, etc. In my area it certainly seems that liberal church groups (Glide Memorial, for instance) pick up a great deal of that slack.

I don't have a problem with Fundamentalists just because they are fundamentalists- and it's a gross misrepresentation of the situation to make it sound like that is the general case, here. I could give a flying fuck what someone personally believes about the Universe. However, when because of those beliefs they start trying to get bullshit like a 6,000 year old Earth and Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark taught in public school science class, when they prevent my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters from getting married, when they interfere with the reproductive choice of 100 million American women, when they attack the separation of church and state, then their beliefs become my problem.

Furthermore, I have problems with Islamic or Christian Fundamentalists when their beliefs require them to blow people up, shoot doctors, bomb clinics or gay bars, kill cartoonists, etc. etc. etc.

And frankly, with regards to the Christian Right in this country, it seems like the lions' share of them are WAY too busy railing against gays and trying to get women put in jail for taking the birth control pill to effectively, say, give sandwiches to poor people. And who is filling these mega-churches where the preachers say "God wants you to be RICH RICH RICH!" (he just doesn't want you to be gay or have sex for non-procreative purposes) ... I suspect it's many of these "fundamentalists" you hear people complaining about in these parts.

And you know what else? There's a lot of completely non-religious people doing charity work, too. One big difference being that they don't ever require poor people to listen to a sermon about Jesus before they get lunch.

[fishwax]

36. That's not at all consistent with my experience

Where I've been, liberal congregations have been very much on the front lines of all kinds of social issues, and certainly with respect to helping the poor.

[WyLoochka]

39. My first hand experience

with both the Episcopal Church and the related liberal churches, as well as a huge fundie "missionary" church for awhile, when I was in a certifiably crazy phase after the deaths of my husband and son a few years back, does not support your claims at all.

Being accustomed to the plethora of charities of the Episcopal Church, I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the fundies to even utter a word about poverty. They never did. Oh they had plenty of "missions" with the missionaries returning home to raise funds frequently, but the "missions" were focused on conversions, not acts of charity. Some of these missionary families spent years living in exotic places on other peoples' "donations." Most literally only produced a handful of "converts" and did NO poverty alleviation, social justice work whatsoever. I eventually left in disgust over this, as well as the constant harangues about the literality of Genesis and Revelations.

[Beacho]

40. Got any facts to back that up, Sunshine?

The only area I've seen where Fundies excel is TALKING about it.

In my experience, the more liberal denominations Do and don't try to make hay of it.

That Xtian humility thang, doncha know?

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Varies from place to place

Here in Minneapolis, the downtown mainstream churches cooperate to make sure that the poor in the area are taken care of.

Lutheran Social Services, Catholic Charities, Episcopal Relief and Development, and others are always among the first responders to natural disasters.

I spent a week on the Mississippi Gulf Coast in January along with 150 other volunteers from all over the country, working at a relief center that was a cooperative effort between the Lutherans and the Episcopalians.

In the small Oregon town I lived in for seven years, Lutheran Social Services was one of the prime sources for help, even though there was only one tiny Lutheran church in town.

[mmonk]

43. They are doing more harm than good.

The loss of rights and the people they vote for that increase poverty through their policies can't be made up by their work at charities.

[hyphenate]

44. I think a large part of it depends

on where you live, how much influence and how ignorant the fundies are.

I had, for many years, discussed this with a Catholic friend, who made a point to mention that many fundies will help out people only as long as they can proselytize along the way. You go into any of the counties with Christian missionaries and find that they will often only help out or render aid when they have done speaking their piece and tried to convert everyone to Christianity. At least most Catholic missionaries render aid first and preach second.

To me, and I'm sure to many like me, the audacity and the presumption that many of these people have is enough to send us over the edge--their condescension that none of us have value unless we are fellow "Christians" is, in my estimation, one of the nastiest things about them. If I cannot be valued as a human being for my own set of beliefs, right in their eyes or wrong, should have nothing to do with why I'm deserving of charity or not.

I've seen too many fundie Xtians with that mindset, and it appalls me. I don't have much to offer people myself at this point in my life, but if I could help out someone I do it regardless of their beliefs. In fact, if I help people out it is because I have a sense of compassion, and not because I seek to gain an entry to a mythological heaven as a result.

It bothers me to have people base their level of charitable works on that kind of a system to begin with--you are either a good person, or a not so good person, according to the ethics we are all raised with. If someone is hurt and needs help, I don't go prodding them with tendentious shit before I do something. It is either something good people do or don't--and those who plot out their rationale for doing it aren't very good people, period.

If we all simply base our actions on goodwill and brotherhood, we would come to a lasting peace and a whole better earth sooner, instead of trying to justifying everything we say or do.

Personally, I would rather have no one help if someone can't do it without an agenda.

The fundies I know are ignorant and intolerant. My former best friend's lack of concern for anyone she didn't feel was "Christian" enough was just what I needed to see the light in her now emotionally selfish lies. While she proclaimed her fundie-ism, she ignored those around her to the point of exclusion, and managed to fuck up not only our longtime friendship, but the relationship with her oldest brother as well. It also was revelationary for me to now understand why she had no other longterm friendships, because she alienated people left and right with her ego-centric and self-righteous behavior.

It isn't a matter of right or wrong, left or right, good or bad, but a matter of who people are at their core. Religion isn't a badge of honor for good people--religion ultimately has less to do with what is a mark of simple charity than the background and conscience of the person giving it.

[we can do it]

45. I Think You Are Off Base

Most of the fundie/megasize churches around my area (Ohio) are more worried about stopping gay marriage and abortion than helping ANYONE. Personal experience with the UCC, Quakers and Catholic organizations do a lot, soup kitchens, good neighbors, etc. - so don't be so quick to judge.

Peace

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. What the hell?

Nearly all religious charities in Brazil are ran by the Catholic Church, mostly by its more liberal members, whereas the fire-and-brimstone fundie evangelicals tend to do john excrement except getting as many people to tithe as possible.

I very much doubt it is exactly the other way around in the US as you claim.