Tim McVeigh was seen with white supremacist weeks before 1995 Oklahoma City terror attack

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/185567,CST-NWS-okla25.article

Were others involved in Okla. blast?
FBI probe of leads fell short, House panel says

December 25, 2006
BY JOHN SOLOMON

WASHINGTON -- The FBI failed to fully investigate information suggesting other suspects may have helped Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols with the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, allowing questions to linger more than a decade after the deadly attack, a congressional inquiry concludes.

A House subcommittee will release its findings as early as Wednesday, declaring there is no conclusive evidence of a foreign connection to the attack but far too many questions remain. snip

• Information that McVeigh called a German living at a white supremacist compound in Oklahoma two weeks before the bombing and that two witnesses saw the men together before the bombing.

• • Witness accounts that another man was seen with McVeigh around the time of the bombing.

• • Findings in AP articles in 2003 and 2004 that indicated the FBI had gathered some evidence suggesting a group of neo-Nazi bank robbers may have been tied to McVeigh.

[indepat]

1. Terrorists of the RW fascist neo-Nazi types must wear the white hats

[NewJeffCT]

10. McVeigh is a typical Republican

right around the mainstream of today's party.

[slackmaster]

12. Sorry, I just have to laugh at that

:rofl:

[BrotherBuzz]

2. Well, let's grill Tim McVeigh and get some answers...

Oh wait, I guess we can't do that. :shrug:

[Bluebear]

18. Convenient, ain't it? nt

[lovuian]

43. Exactly Oh we can Interrogate Gutanomo Bay prisoners

but McVeigh gets rushed off to be killed

It Only Makes sense when you see the FBI's cover up

FBI has gotten to be the cover up Police for the Governments Secret OPS agency

No ANTHRAX KILLER found

YET
and OSAMA off the Most Wanted List

[SmokingJacket]

25. Yet another reason the death penalty blows. nt

[theHandpuppet]

3. Digging through the DU vaults

In the past I've posted some stuff about these white supremicist connections so I pulled up just one example for you, from which I've culled a snippet:

(From post 13)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1935929
Several years ago I posted a lengthy thread on the ties between neo-Confederate hate groups and well-known Republicans in Congress. (I could not, unfortunately, find this thread in the archives.) To get just a glimpse of how pervasive their influence is within the halls of Congress, just do a Google search of "Southern Partisan" or the "Council of Conservative Citizens". You'll find many familiar names associated with them, including John McCain, John Ashcroft, Pat Robertson, Trent Lott, Dick Armey, Bob Barr, Newt Gingrich, Phil Gramm, among many others. It is also no accident that almost all of these same men have the support of anti-abortion extremist groups.

Nothing speaks of domestic terrorism like a good old fashioned t-shirt, though, like the one hawked by Southern Partisan and which was worn by Timothy McVeigh at the time of his arrest:

http://www.accuracy.org/newsrelease.php?articleId=752
Here's a pic of McVeigh wearing that same shirt: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveig... (This link no longer works)
Here's a closeup pic of the shirt: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/l/a/t/Harris... (This link no longer works)

Yes, the links between homegrown terrorist/hate groups and our own members of Congress is one which has been almost totally ignored by the press. George Allen is just the latest to rear his racist head from this pit of filth.

[hlthe2b]

4. A bit off subject...

Anyone heard anything about McVeigh's father and sister or other family members? I know they probably don't want any attention and I don't blame them. But, I can't help but wonder how people cope with something like this in their family...:shrug:

[ljm2002]

11. Not sure about any siblings...

...but I remember reading that he was raised by a single father, who was heartbroken at what had happened and who made a friendship with the parent of one of the victims.

[benEzra]

21. Some years ago,

I remember reading an interview with his younger sister, who seemed to be a very ordinary, well-adjusted woman who was very pained by the whole thing. I don't think McVeigh's family shared his views, or knew anything about what he was up to.

[hlthe2b]

28. I don't think they did either.... that's why I think of them

and can't help but wonder how they are doing this many years later...They were victims too, it seems.

[Jade Fox]

5. Our country's insane enthusiasm for.....

the so-called War on Terror is a form of denial and distraction over the fact that we've got Terrorists in this country. One of them, McVeigh, was spectacularly successful in his deadly intentions.

[Ezlivin]

7. McVeigh did not act alone - there were bombs inside the Murrah building

http://www.okcbombing.org/

If you watch the local news broadcasts done live at the scene you'll see that repeatedly the newscasters talk about bomb teams removing bombs that had been planted inside the building.

We've got terrorists in this country, all right, but the scary thing is that they are inside our own government. Who do you call for help when your leadership is corrupt?

[Ian David]

19. The meida NEVER gets anything wrong, especially in the heat of the moment

right?

See also:

THE AFTERMATH OF KATRINA: AN UPDATE OF MEDIA COVERAGE, INTERNATIONAL REACTIONS, AND PUBLIC DIPLOMACY
http://uscpublicdiplomacy.com/index.php/newsroom/specialreports_detail/052009_katrina_media_update/

[Ezlivin]

20. Neither does the FBI, sheriff's officers and other individuals

And since everyone of those are also on record as saying that additional bombs were found, I guess we can drop the whole "media made a mistake" meme that you appear to favor.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Gotta include ruining the life of Richard Jewell after harrassing him over their belief

he had caused the bombing of the Atlanta Summer Games, later to learn it was actually Eric Rudolph, who, like the colossal coward someone like him IS, hid to avoid arrest and let another man be tarred and feathered for his criminality by a group of lazy media people who love the exitement but don't like the rigor of doing their jobs correctly.

[karlrschneider]

24. There were no bombs in the Murrah building.

This is another figment of the fevered imagination of screwballs.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karlrschneider]

27. It's bullshit just like the 'controlled demolition' bullshit at the WTC

I was IN Okla City that day.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karlrschneider]

30. All those are WAY after the fact and based on hearsay.

They have zero credibility. In the real world, at least.

[Ezlivin]

34. Those were CURRENT and based on eyewitness accounts

It's your credibility that's on the the line.

If your only rebuttal is the poor one offered, then you really don't know what's going on.

What does FEMA report? "A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated." ( Link)

What does the U.S. Forces Command Daily Log say? "1157 Two more explosive devices were located vicinity the explosion site. Evidently intended for the rescuers." (Link)

What did the DoD Atlantic Command memo (36 hours after) say? "A second bomb was disarmed, a third bomb was evacuated." (Link)

What did the Oklahoma Highway Patrol say AS THEY WERE WORKING? "There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg need to get away as far as possible/bb suflt 3 and lb evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the area of the S side of the bldg immediately." Minutes later they report, "The Fire Dept has located another device." (Link)

So FEMA, the US Forces Command, the DoD and Oklahoma Highway Patrol have "zero credibility"?

Really?

[karlrschneider]

35. Deal me out on this bullshit thread. I don't need to hear any more of this crap.

I often have to remind myself that in any large community such as DU, there will always be a few idiots.
Please don't bother to reply.

[Ezlivin]

36. Sure. You should bail out. You've offered ZERO proof.

Go somewhere where your insults are enough "proof" to win an argument.

It's typical that those that shoot their mouths off the loudest have the least to show for it.

Never could find support for your "one bomb" theory, could you?

Have fun living in delusion land.

[Ezlivin]

40. Congrats for being in OKC that day. Did you read the SWORN AFFIDAVITS?

Are all of those people liars? Did all of them take an oath and swear that they saw bombs just for fun? Or is there more to it than that?

And what about retired Brig. General Partin with 30 years of demolition experience who said there was no possible way that an ANFO bomb could have created the damage? (Link) This report was submitted to Congress and is a matter of the Congressional Record. I'd like to see your point-by-point rebuttal of that professional's opinion.

I'm glad that you were IN THE CITY when the bomb went off, but unless you were in the lobby, you are not an eyewitness. And plenty of true eyewitnesses have sworn affidavits that they saw bombs.

Let's see your sworn testimony as to the day's events as well as your expertise on explosives.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. The Photographic Evidence Belies That

As one trained by the A.C.E. in explosive manufacture and application, i can tell you that the damage at Murrah was clearly created by an outside-in blast wave. Even without training, one can see that the vast majority of the debris is at the wall line or inside of that. One doesn't need a degree in fluid mechanics to know that this happens because the pressure was higher outside than inside.

I read your cite, but i don't see any irrefutable evidence there.
The Professor

[Ezlivin]

42. Then you are at odds with a demolitions expert

Could you please rebut the salient points from General Partin's research below to buttress your contention that a single ANFO bomb was the cause of the damage?

The media and the Executive branch reported that the sole source of the devastation was a single truck bomb consisting of 4,800 pounds of ammonium nitrate, transported to the location in a Ryder Truck and parked in front of the building. It is impossible that the destruction to the building could have resulted from such a bomb alone.

To cause the damage pattern that occurred to the Murrah building, there would have to have been demolition charges at several supporting column bases, at locations not accessible from the street, to supplement the truck bomb damage. Indeed, a careful examination of photographs showing the collapsed column bases reveals a failure mode produced by demolition charges and not by a blast from the truck bomb.

To understand what caused the damage to the Murrah Building, one needs to understand some basics about the use and nature of explosives.

First, blast through air is a very inefficient energy coupling mechanism against heavily reinforced concrete beams and columns.

Second, blast damage potential initially falls off more rapidly than an inverse function of the distance cubed. That is why in conventional weapons development, one seeks accuracy over yield for hard targets. That is also why in the World Trade Center bombing (where the only source of blast damage was a truck bomb) the column in the middle of the bombed-out cavity was relatively untouched, although reinforced concrete floors were completely stripped away for several floors above and below the point of the bomb's detonation (see Time Magazine, 3-8-93, page 35).

By contrast, heavily reinforced concrete structures can be destroyed effectively through detonation of explosives in contact with the reinforced concrete beams and columns. For example, the entire building remains in Oklahoma City were collapsed with 100-plus relatively small charges inserted into drilled holes in the columns. The total weight of all charges was on the order of 200 pounds.

The detonation wave pressure (1,000,000 to 1,500,000 pounds per square inch) from a high detonation velocity contact explosive sweeps into the column as a wave of compressive deformation. Since the pressure in the wave of deformation far exceeds the yield strength of the concrete (about 3,500 pounds per square inch) by a factor of approximately 300, the concrete is turned into granular sand and dust until the wave dissipates to below the yield strength of the concrete. This leaves a relatively smooth but granular surface, with protruding, bare reinforcement rods__a distinctive signature of damage by contact explosives. The effect of the contact explosive on the reinforcement rods themselves can only be seen under microscopic metallurgical examination. (The rods are inertially confined during the explosion and survive basically in tact because of their much higher yield strength and plasticity.)

When a reinforced concrete structure is damaged through air shock coupling and the pressure is below the compressive yield strength of the concrete, the failure mode is generally compressive structural fracture on one side and tensile fracture on the other__ both characterized by cracks and rough fracture surfaces. Such a surface texture is very different from the relatively smooth granular surface resulting from contact explosives.

...

[The graphic] shows the architectural layout of the first floor of the Murrah Building and the location of the truck bomb with superimposed circles of roughly equal levels of damage potential. The explosive force drops rapidly (initially proportional to one over the distance cubed) as the shock front travels farther and farther away from the truck bomb. After the release wave, the shock front will propagate proportional to one over the distance squared. The maximum possible yield from 4800 pounds of ammonium nitrate would be obtained if it were in a compressed sphere and detonated from the center. That would produce a 4.4 foot diameter sphere of detonation products at about 500,000 pounds per square inch. By the time the blast wave hits the closest column, the pressure would have fallen off to about 375 pounds per square inch. That would be far below the 3500 pound compressive yield strength of the concrete. Any column or beam failure from the truck bomb would therefore have been from blast wave structural loading and not from any wave of deformation in the concrete. The basic building structure consists of three rows of columns (35 feet apart) with eleven columns in each row (20 feet apart). The four corner columns have an external clamshelllike structure for air ducts, etc. If we label the column rows A, B. and C from front to back, and number the columns 1 through 11 from left to right, then columns A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, and B3 collapsed, essentially vertically. Tab 2 shows a very large reinforced concrete header at the floor level of the third floor of column row A. Much larger columns extend from the header down for the odd-numbered columns, i.e., A3, A5, A7, and A9. The even- and odd-numbered columns extended from the top of the building down to the header. The foundation of the building is a heavy, reinforced concrete slab with no sub-levels. From the potential damage contours on [graphic], and assuming the single truck bomb, the pressure and impulse for collapsed columns B4, B5 and A7 are all in the 25 to 35 pounds per square inch region. However, the much smaller and closer columns, B4 and B5, are still standing, while the much larger column A7 is down. Column B3 is down with 42 percent less pressure and impulse than columns B4. These facts are sufficient reason to know that columns B3 and A7 had demolition charges on them. Moreover, there is not sufficient blast impulse at that range to collapse any of the three. In fact, columns B2, B4 and Bs all have the sheet rock and furring strip finish still intact on the second and third floors except where damaged by falling debris. The large header across the front of the building at the third floor of Row A was not blown back into the building as one may expect from such a large bomb. The header came straight down but rolled backward 90 degrees because the columns above the header rested off center toward the back.

[Ezlivin]

39. There were multiple bombs in the Murrah building

You have not studied the OKC bombing sufficiently.

Read the AFFADAVITS at this link and get back to me: Link

[RC]

8. So are some in the White House.

[yellerpup]

6. If the problem is connected to guns or gun ownership investigations

always seem weak to non existent. McVeigh was a disaffected ex-soldier, gun dealer and meth dealer with ties to racist, terrorist organizations whose drug-taking, gun-shooting soldiers mostly fantasize about performing terrorist acts against innocent people. The gun lobby is powerful in this country. Too powerful. :scared:

[benEzra]

22. Huh?

If the problem is connected to guns or gun ownership investigations always seem weak to non existent. McVeigh was a disaffected ex-soldier, gun dealer and meth dealer with ties to racist, terrorist organizations whose drug-taking, gun-shooting soldiers mostly fantasize about performing terrorist acts against innocent people. The gun lobby is powerful in this country. Too powerful.

Huh???

I'm not sure what you're saying. Lots of DU'ers (including me) like guns, and are as pro-choice on the issue as anybody. Since ~40% of households own guns--mostly nonhunting style guns--would you consider all of us potential terrorists?

To the OP, I think McVeigh's associations with the other players at the "Elohim City" thing, particularly Strassmeier (sp?), ARE very interesting, as is the fact that so much effort went into downplaying those associations at trial. Strassmeier reportedly said something once that made me wonder if the OKC bombing involved a sting operation gone bad, i.e. they had an informant on McVeigh's activities, and somebody screwed up and let him blow up the building, and everything after that was CYA mode. I wonder if we'll ever know the whole story.

[yellerpup]

23. I was talking about Timmy McVeigh tweaking meth around the campfire

with other stoned, racists out in the middle of nowhere and encouraging each other to bomb innocent people. I owned guns myself when I lived in Oklahoma. To me, guns are tools. I assume you are attempting to educate me by citing percentage of gun ownership, but insulting me on the back side (would you consider all of us potential terrorists?) just smacks of NRA programming.

[NNN0LHI]

9. I wonder why McVeigh and everyone involved wasn't waterboarded?

If they had been Muslim they certainly would have been. Being Catholic and white must have its advantages I guess?

Don

[UTUSN]

13. Could they be somebody like THIS???!!1

*******QUOTE*******

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for...



Minutemen: A home for extremists
Monday, August 08, 2005

This is a recent Minutemen rally. And yes, that's a Nazi flag there, third from the right.

Well, I've been saying all along that the Minutemen's core demographic is constituted of right-wing extremists, including many outright racists.

********UNQUOTE*******

[Warpy]

14. Elohim City?

Come on, folks, McVeigh was deeply into every nutcase movement on the far right fringe, from the Identity folks through the Neo Nazis and on into some groups that are so utterly bereft of any sense of reality that we haven't fully grasped what they are yet.

Anyone who buys into that "lone lunatic" theory--AGAIN--needs his own head examined.

It took a lot more than just McVeigh and Nichols to put that one together.

[bleedingheart]

31. the republicans have coddled racists so long that people like McVeigh

give them a bad name...so they do their best to come up with new theories on why he did it...when in reality it was because he was into all the fringe movements on the far right.

[sam sarrha]

15. two of the wittinesses were strippers and both disappeared, one found dead the day after it was

announced she had identified him..

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I have been to Terry Nichols' home in central Kansas

I have a good friend who lives nearby and we have been to his house many times.

It is in the country on a couple acres. It was a rental and the landlord hasn't been able to find a new tenant. So it was still abandoned last time we went by. The first time we went there we found hundreds of shotgun shells all over the yard. No broken windows though and the house was locked up tight. So we guessed that Terry and his buddies like to shoot shotguns.

I thought of that right away when I read this article. I have wondered for almost 10 years now if the FBI never searched this house. Why else would all those shells still be there?

[lovuian]

17. Aschcroft was really wanting to execute Mcveigh

quickly... What a fool or was it to protect someone

[bleedingheart]

33. I think they wanted McVeigh dead because if he had been rotting

in prison for a while then he might have sung like a canary and it might have pointed directly back at the GOP.

I find the whole 'iraqi' connection a joke

[madokie]

32. the composite drawing of the other man looks like padilla, or to me it does

[yodermon]

38. Interesting but I don't trust John Solomon as far as I can throw him

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/008619.php for example
or just http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=wPc&q=site%3Atalkingpointsmemo.com+john+solomon&btnG=Search

[peanutbrittle]

44. FBI & Muslim provocateurs

Read all about it here....a tangled web indeed

http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/PatrickA.htm