dateline nbc: to catch a predator -- what do YOU think?

[unblock]

this show features actual sting operations wherein a volunteer above the age of consent poses as someone below the age of consent and waits in an internet chat room for someone who wants to have sex with minors.

eventually they arrange a rendez-vous at a house where dateline nbc has set up hidden cameras and the police are staked out next door. after a nice friendly interview with the nbc guys, the predator is arrested as he leaves.


now, first things first. while i think there might be a grey zone for couples who are both very close to the age of consent, none of that applies in the instances broadcast. we're talknig about 26-54 year olds going after 13-15 year olds. no grey zone here, these guys are absolute scum and i have NO sympathy for them whatsoever.

having said that, i'm not too sure about the police tactics here, either. most importantly, there simply IS no minor involved, period, except in the mind of the predator. is the guy someone who would or will or has already commited a sex crime with a minor? most likely, yes, and they broadcast some pretty frank confessions and near confessions. as i said, these guys are scum, and the world is a safer place with these guys behind bars.

but i really have mixed feelings about this kind of sting operation. i understand that the police can't use actual minors, but i really wish there was a better way to catch these scumbags and pin something more than a thought crime on them.

maybe it's a small enough price to pay for getting these guys off the streets.

what are your thoughts?

[Bluebear]

1. I am hoping at least it acts as a deterrent

Perhaps somebody who is tempted to molest a child they meet on the internet may think twice knowing that the NBC crew is "out there".

[unblock]

3. interestingly, some of them admit to seeing the show

and yet they still couldn't help themselves to try again.

needless to say, these people, in addition to being scumbags, are also incredibly stupid.

[unblock]

4. as far as deterrence goes,

i actually wouldn't mind it if nbc broadcast the arrest far and wide and then the police quietly dropped the charges. i agree that the deterrent effect would be worth it and you wouldn't have the problem of a tainted prosecution.

for all i know, that's exactly what's happening.

[cool user name]

2. I think it's great to see those bastards outted.

[timetoleave]

5. As a father I can..

see the good in what is being done, but I can also see problems with the use of bait that is not underage to entice the sleezeball. I hope it does deter, but can see some of your points.

[unblock]

7. i'm typing with one hand and holding my baby with the other....

as i said, mixed feelings....

[mistertrickster]

6. I have somewhat mixed feelings about it. For one thing, the "predators"

haven't actually committed a crime yet. Some of them might meet a kid and then realize what they were doing is wrong and not follow through with anything.

NBC too seems to be awfully selective about who they sting on the air. Potential child abusers (with a heavy emphasis on the potential) are fine targets.

How about Enron executives? How about contractors in Iraq bilking us taxpayers for billions? How about scum-sucking political operatives like Swift Boat Veterans?

There's only one kind of crime that NBC seems interested in -- homo-sexual pedophilia.

On edit--it's hard to have sympathy with people this dumb though. I mean, not only is the crime despicable, but the transparent way they go about it is really stupid.

[Trajan]

32. They HAVE committed a crime ...

Following through with a plan to meet a minor for the purpose of having sexual contact is a crime in most states ....

While I consider myself VERY Libertarian when it comes to societal mores and so called victimless crimes, acts of pedophilia SHOULD be outlawed, and laws that outlaw clear intent to violate those laws, is a reasonable step, in my view, for a community to take to protect children from sexual predators.

There are other laws against mere 'intent' ... including intent to commit murder (hiring a hit man) .... I dont have a problem with outlawing intent to commit murder either .... It is quite similar in that actions are carried out to commit the outlawed behaviour .... Sex with minors is not a consititutional right .... The community has an obligation to protect children, according to a reasonable consensus, and without any constitutional constraints to obstruct prosecution, the laws would be valid and enforceable ... I have no issue with these laws ...

Now sexual contact between consenting adults ? .... NO laws should interfere in ANY way with such a arrangement ..... This is obviously different ....

[Ravy]

72. I regrettably don't believe they committed a crime, or at least

one that would withstand the test of the founding fathers. If I go 50 mph when I think the speed limit is 35 do I get arrested for speeding? Not if the speed limit is actually 55.

Could I get off if I went 50, thinking the speed limit was 55, when it is really 35?

These guys engaged in conversation with another adult about consensual sex. They thought they were talking with a minor, but they weren't. I would like to put them in jail and throw away the key, but I honestly can't make that sit with my current conception of justince.

[Quantess]

76. I guess it's arguable whether a crime has been commited.

I say so, the cops say so, but I can understand why some people would say that a crime had actually not been commited, being that the pretenses were false.

[renie408]

77. I think

I have heard them charge the predators with INTENT to engage in sex with a minor or something like that. That just making the appointment and showing up is a crime. I can see where this is the kind of thing you want to get ahead of, instead of 'getting' guys after the fact. I believe that in the cases I watched, the MEN were the ones who mentioned meeting in person first. At the point at which they started making noises about meeting with the minors, the watchdog group which pretends to be the girls notify NBC and the cops. But the guys make the first move.

[Quantess]

84. And, even if they don't get charged with a crime,

the embarrassment is fitting punishment.

[Imagevision]

78. ha! duh, would you feel differently if it was your kid playing with one of these degenerates?!!

because it's so successful, at least one dept. in every city police department should have a predator sting group. What they're not telling us is how many kid's disappear yearly nationwide to predator's, they can't stop them all!

[Quantess]

79. No, I said I feel a crime HAD been commited.

But I can see why some people see gray area.

[renie408]

80. Speaking of which....

This should be a sharp reminder for parents to monitor their children's internet use diligently. I imagine that inventive kids will find a way around supervision, but I think it is important to make strong efforts to keep my kids safe on the net. And it ain't easy sometimes.

[unblock]

81. children disappearing is something else entirely

the overwhelming majority of children disappearing are when the other parent takes the kid without the blessings of law.
the overwhelming majority of child molestation/statutory rape do not involve disappearing.

yes, there are predators who will kidnap children for sex, but that is not the focus of the dateline series nor is it the bulk of what's at issue here.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. Are you telling me none of the stingers pose as GIRLS? Figures.

Only TEH GAY!!1!11!!! are evil. Sure.

[elehhhhna]

117. some do.

[Uzybone]

147. Actually most do

All the ones Ive seen pose as girls.

[MethuenProgressive]

8. NBC considers it Entertainment, they're not being heros

Would they be doing it if they weren't filming a TV show? Of course not. How about they check all the NBC staff computers for kiddie porn and film that?
I have seen the show - I wonder how many convictions NBC is screwing up? I hope none of these guys is going free because of some legal gaff by the film crews.

[Infinite Hope]

9. I have no qualms. If it wasn't the cop, it'd have been a real minor.

They just found the cop first. It isn't entrapment if you're merely setting up the conditions that would have caused them to act as they would have anyway. Entrapment is only setting up a situation that causes them to act in a manner that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Entrapment: "A defense that claims the defendant would not have broken the law if not tricked into doing it by law enforcement officials"

From what I've heard, the cops aren't very aggressive online with these people because that could then become entrapment. If the cops are the ones persuading the creep to act, then it could be causing them to do something they otherwise hadn't. All the cops do chat and take the lead of the creep. In that situation, it can't be entrapment.

[unblock]

17. i''m not sure "entrapment" is the word i'd use for this situation anyway

one side point, the 18-19 year old posing as a 13-15 year old is actaully an actress, not a cop.

but my main concern is not that they tricked the predators into breaking the law, but rather that i'm not sure any law was broken at all, given that the "prey" in this case actually was above the age of consent.

put it this way. if nbc didn't intervene, and the predator and the actress actually had sex, it wouldn't be statutory rape because she's over the age of consent. it's not illegal to have sex with someone over the age of consent just because they lie about their age.

[Infinite Hope]

27. On Dateline, when I've watched, it's always a cop.

Even if it's not a cop, the same issues apply because anyone doing the work for them is "an agent of the state" according to the Supreme Court and therefore is held to the same standards and guidelines.

Also, the evidence of the crime primarily is the online conversation describing what they'll do. Showing up corroborates the evidence and the evidence therefore reaches the level of probably cause which allows for arrest.

The police acts are very strictly and constitutionally done; very much constitutionally sound.

And entrapment is the issue. They mention it each time when I've watched.

[OneBlueSky]

10. I find it despicable . . . n/t

.

[unblock]

11. which "it"?

[951-Riverside]

14. I'm with you OneBlueSky how dare they exploit men who just want to have sex with children

...I've had it with these puritans, sex should not be restricted. Free love for everyone! :sarcasm: :eyes:

[OneBlueSky]

107. I find the show despicable because it's the definition of entrapment . . .

chances are very high that 95% (if not more) of these guys would never in a million years have an opportunity to meet up with a kid he chatted with online -- UNLESS and until NBC provided a willing "minor" . . .

most (if not virtually all) kids these days are WAY too savvy to ever meet with an online predator -- and most of these guys are W-A-A-A-Y too stupid and immature to actually be able to talk someone into meeting with them . . . the NBC impostor was very likely the first and ONLY instance of that happening in their undoubtedly lonely and isolated lives of deviant fantasy . . . they were probably so shocked (and delighted) that someone they fantasized about actually wanted to be with them that they lost all common sense and good judgment -- and confused their fantasies with what they perceived to be reality . . . rather than an NBC script . . .

I am NOT excusing their actions, mind you . . . I'm just saying that they were led to do something that likely never would have happened without NBC's aggressive involvement . . . and THAT'S entrapment . . . so while I don't excuse them, I do pity them . . . no crime would have been committed EXCEPT that NBC provided the entire setup -- INCLUDING the invitations and the directions to where to meet . . .

and NBC turning the whole charade into "infotainment" is beyond disgusting . . . I know that the media these days will do ANYTHING for ratings, but this goes way beyond ethical journalism, and certainly beyond legality and good taste . . . it's NOT okay to entrap drug dealers, it's NOT okay to entrap thieves -- and it's NOT okay to entrap sexual "predators" -- who, absent NBC's aggressive and irresponsible "journalism," would very likely have remained lonely and isolated in their fantasy worlds . . .

[Zookeeper]

123. The few times I've seen the show...

some of the predators admitted to having met underage girls previously. And not all of them come across as lonely and isolated. Some of them are truly predatory and know exactly what, and what not, to say or admit and don't show the least bit of remorse.

My kids like to watch the show and laugh at the "pervs." It's OK with me....the "pervs" deserve it.

On edit: When the police opened the trunk of one of the would-be child molesters, it contained a saw and rope. Of course, he COULD have been planning to cut down his X-mas tree....

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I think law enforcement should do its job and the media should stay out of it

Yes, these predators should be stopped but the cops should be busting them instead of the media.

[bpeale]

13. i want to know...

why is mark foley still running around free when all these guys went to jail?

[951-Riverside]

16. Ask the district attorney who investigated the Mark Foley case. n/t

[Infinite Hope]

19. There's no evidence he met with them while they were minors.

The show always says that talking about meeting for sex is not a crime. Talking about meeting for sex becomes a crime only when they try show up.

[unblock]

24. not quite, they do charge them with something like

"lewd and obscene conversation with a minor" among other things.

[Infinite Hope]

28. Huh? My comment was about Mark Foley. Read the ones before it for context first. n/t

[unblock]

30. sorry :) my bad...

[Infinite Hope]

37. No problem. :) n/t

[951-Riverside]

34. Nevermind n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. They did a version of this on Law & Order this season.

The guy that was caught was out on bond when he was murdered. Can't remember if the murderer turned out to be a vigilante or a relative of a victim he had molested.

I bring this up only because it got me thinking. This program does expose a person who, at the very least, is contemplating having sex with a minor--and perhaps exposing him for that crime would have his real victims feel that they must step forward.

Edited to add:

any data on whether any of these people caught in the sting are found later to have molested children?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

18. I don't think it's any worse than predators posing as people a child can trust...

...and I do have sympathy for predators. But until there's a cure for their disease, something needs to be done to protect our children.

[Infinite Hope]

21. Interesting/good perspective in your subject line. n/t

[unblock]

20. anothe qualm: is nbc PAYING the predators for use of the filmed footage?

as far as i know, you have to pay to use someone's image like that, unless it happened on public property. i don't know if the sting house is actually public property, but it's certainly represented as private property.

i don't like the idea of them using footage without permission, nor do i like the idea of them giving money to these scumbags.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

103. Are You For Real? It's A Criminal Investigation. It Is Law Enforcement. It Doesn't Require

authorization from the criminal. I have no idea where you would've gotten that idea from to begin with.

[Drifter]

22. Once it leaves the ...

internet and arrives at a house, it is no longer a thought crime.

Cheers
Drifter

[unblock]

26. i don't think so. i think it's merely much stronger evidence of a thought crime.

i have trouble seeing how it's a real crime unless there's an actual minor involved, SOMEWHERE.

[madmusic]

39. The courts have ruled that it is...

And understandably so. There are other stings, like cops as an undercover hit man for murder for hire stings. If it were just the police making the sting, fine, but Dateline is after ratings of the most despicable kind. If they didn't make any money would they still do it as public service announcements? Hardly.

[unblock]

52. there is a major difference

in the murder-for-hire stings, the intended victim is very real and specifically identified. here the victim is either fictional or an above-the-age-of-consent actress.

[Goblinmonger]

67. So they need to wait until this guy

has sex with someone underage? Gotta catch him in the act? The laws surrounding pedophilia are different for very obvious reasons.

[unblock]

69. no, intent to have sex with an ACTUAL minor would be enough for me

[Goblinmonger]

73. So if the person typing is 14

that makes what the pedophile is doing somehow different? They THINK it is a kid. They are charged with intent. Which is what they had.

[unblock]

75. so how is this not then a thought crime?

[Goblinmonger]

83. Because the guy's not at home

whacking it to the thought of a 14 year old girl. He makes an appointment, buys alcohol, gets condomns, and goes to the house to have sex with a 14 year old. Just that this time we are lucky he won't have sex with a youngster; he will be charged with intent. And if you think "intent" is a thought crime, you will have to rewrite the criminal code.

[unblock]

85. i don't think "intent" in and of itself is a thought crime.

but there's a huge difference between plotting to kill an actual human being and plotting to kill a fictional character, even if you were to arm yourself and proceed to a destination where you, for some reason, think this fictional character might be.

in any other law where "attempted" such-and-so is a crime, there is clear intent to commit an actual crime with an actual, identified victim. i'm not rewriting the criminal code. i'm just pointing out that the standard is apparently different for this particular "attempted" crime.

[Goblinmonger]

89. What if you

attempt to sell drugs to a police officer that you think is a drug addict but isn't (not to mention you don't think they are a cop)? What if you solicit sex from a police officer that is not a prostitute and has NO THOUGHT of having sex with you? Isn't that a thought crime and one that is perpetrated on someone that is not what they appear? Same thing here.

[unblock]

90. no, not the same thing.

if you're attempting to sell drugs to an actual human being, cop or not, the buyer is fully capable of paying for and taking the drugs. the fact that they then chose not to (and planned to chose not to) and arrest you instead does not change the fact that a crime was committed with an actual victim.

if you're soliciting prostitution with an undercover cop, again, the cop is fully capable of taking money and engaging in sex.

but if you're attempting to have sex with a 19-year old pretending to be a minor, the 19-year old is absolutely incapable of being a minor. if the cops didn't stop it, you would have had sex with a 19 year old, which is NOT a crime.

[gollygee]

133. About the drugs thing

He's only capable of taking drugs if the officer in fact has drugs with him. If there are no drugs on the site that he could have bought, I'd argue it's exactly the same thing. He thought he was going to be buying drugs but only bought something that looked like drugs. Just like setting up sex with someone who looks and sounds like he/she is underage.

[unblock]

135. i thought the drug stings were usually to go after the dealers, not the users

but if they're going after users, i'm not sure why they wouldn't use real drugs.

i totally understand the reasoning behind not using actual minors in an underage sex sting, but i don't see why not to use real drugs in a drug sting. in fact, i would argue that having real drugs on hand would make the situation safer for the cops in case someone smells a rat.

[madmusic]

91. At least one circuit court agreed with you

In http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/06/06/053387P.pdf">this case (pdf), but it has since been reversed, I think, by the SCOTUS.

edit fixed link

[madmusic]

120. Correction, the District Court agreed,

The 8th Circuit, opinion in the link, overturned that ruling by rejecting the "factual impossibility" defense.

[gollygee]

131. ignore this

You already answered this question.

[Bucky]

23. It's not a thought crime if the pervs actually go over to the rendezvous spot.

I only wish the House Republicans had been so vigilent.

[Trajan]

25. I dont see this as entrapment ....

The laws against sexual contact with minors are clear, but these televised instances have nothing to do with contact ... The laws which define the 'intent' to meet a minor for presumed sexual contact are what are at issue here, and as a father of three teens, I think the boundary into immorality is crossed when an adult executes a plan to meet a minor with the intent of having sexual contact .... I want my community to have that law ...

There is no real minor involved in these cases, of course, but if there were, sexual acts with them, if committed, would constitute child rape or one of the various other charges depending on the state and local laws, but that is not what is being charged in these cases ... This is about clear intent to meet a minor for the purpose of having sexual contact : These men have clearly violated that law ....

My opinion is based on what I think about sexuality, and I place pedophilia in the list of the WORST felonious crimes ....

You wanna have sex ? .... There are LOTS of adults who wanna have sex too .... Go find them .... and STAY AWAY from kids ...

[madmusic]

29. Winston encounters O'Brien, an inner party member, who gives Winston his address.

In 1984, Winston Smith lives in London which is part of the country Oceania. The world is divided into three countries that include the entire globe: Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia. Oceania is a totalitarian society led by Big Brother, which censors everyone's behavior, even their thoughts. Winston is disgusted with his oppressed life and secretly longs to join the fabled Brotherhood, a supposed group of underground rebels intent on overthrowing the government. Winston meets Julia and they secretly fall in love and have an affair, something which is considered a crime. One day, while walking home, Winston encounters O'Brien, an inner party member, who gives Winston his address. Winston had exchanged glances with O'Brien before and had dreams about him giving him the impression that O'Brien was a member of the Brotherhood. Since Julia hated the party as much as Winston did, they went to O'Brien's house together where they were introduced into the Brotherhood. O'Brien is actually a faithful member of the Inner-Party and this is actually a trap for Winston, a trap that O'Brien has been cleverly setting for seven years. Winston and Julia are sent to the Ministry of Love which is a sort of rehabilitation center for criminals accused of thoughtcrime. There, Winston was separated from Julia, and tortured until his beliefs coincided with those of the Party. Winston denounces everything he believed in, even his love for Julia, and was released back into the public where he wastes his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin.

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

There are some serious Constitutional issues. For example, is Chris Hansen an agent of the police and are the suspects under custody? If so, should Hansen give them Miranda Rights warnings before he interviews them? How much if any of the chats are entrapment? Even if not legally entrapment, how many would go to this house or any other if not so enticed? (Hansen as said the ploys feign being "eager for sex." How likely is that real life? Not likely.) Few of them are "off the streets" after getting caught, and so how much good does it really do? Sure, a warning might be very effective and prevent future violations, but does that warning need be so destructive? And is it worth the Constitutional and legal costs? And does the show teach real dangerous predators how to be more cunning and avoid prosecution?

The eventual outcome might depend on how good their attorney's are. Some won't care about any of this and would be glad to flush the Bill of Rights down the toilet for a good enough cause. The good news is that the leader of "Perverted Justice" keeps himself locked up in his room, a prison of his own device.

There will come a time when history looks back at this show and sees it for what it http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/02/07/publiceye/entry1290135.shtml">really is. (Writes Hansen on the "Dateline" blog: "We have also had men show up whose chat logs were perhaps inappropriate but not necessarily illegal. Those men are usually not shown." Usually?) So like with all reality shows we get the edited version and don't know what is really going on.

edited for clarity

[unblock]

31. interesting, thanks

[wakeme2008]

33. The question I have is who is asking for the meeting

If an "underage" person is pressing for a meeting I would have major problems with that.

[sweetheart]

35. nbc - corporate criminals

Their job is to turn citizens against themselves and to keep
the blame finger pointed away from the curtain... its all those guys
who want to have sex... !

[951-Riverside]

36. Interesting you stopped at sex.... n/t

[sweetheart]

41. entrapment

for no crime, more noncrimes... people lying about age to get in clubs,
people lying about age for all kinds of reasons, and people who want to have
sex and ask honest questions.

Dateline is a fucked show that takes justice away from the courts for
vigilante destruction of people's lives.

[951-Riverside]

43. deterrent

for no crime, more noncrimes... people lying about age to get in clubs,
people lying about age for all kinds of reasons, and people who want to have
sex and ask honest questions.

What the hell?

Dateline is a fucked show that takes justice away from the courts for
vigilante destruction of people's lives.

Interesting you say that because after these people are caught they are sent off to court.

[sweetheart]

44. Television justice

Corporate entrapment of individual persons is criminal, i don't care what glaize you wish to paint on it.

Those same media are permitting genocides around the world, but focusing 'our' attention on the
forever-fiddled age of sexual consent in society. A woman comes in to heat when she does, and takes
a lover when she does in her life, time is not an issue of the law. I don't agree at all. I think
you speak for your god, mammon and the prison complex.

[Goblinmonger]

68. It is not entrapment

in any sense of that word.

[Infinite Hope]

70. It isn't entrapment. I addressed that in a comment here: (Links)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2977514&mesg_id=2977545

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2977514&mesg_id=2977601

[Starbucks Anarchist]

87. I think you forgot the "with minors" part.

:eyes:

[sweetheart]

95. 15,14...

It depends on who made the laws. Most persons i know had their first
sex under the official age of consent. The only crime is in the
mind of people making crimes out of what has been done for thousands years.


"All troubles of the world arise from the inability of people to stay at home."

[Starbucks Anarchist]

97. So because it's been done for thousands of years, it's okay?

I guess we should bring back slavery, then. :sarcasm:

As disgusting as it is, thinking about having sex with minors is not a crime, but attempting to act on that impulse is, no matter which you you sugarcoat it.

And BTW, minors can't give consent.

[acmejack]

38. I enjoy watching the police rough them up.

In the process of apprehending them. I am curious as to why no one else seems to think that disproportionate force is used. I suppose it suitable that a couple of burly officers throw the person to ground, they usually look pretty dangerous. One might ask themselves where entrapment begins, but then I guess that would mean you are a "pedophilia supporter" or some such nonsense, in this black & white society that people apparently choose to live in nowadays.

I am distinctly uncomfortable with media performing law enforcement functions, I have to wonder when does mere posing become enticement become active baiting? Is there and should there be a line here someplace? Is the mere predisposition to something criminal a crime in itself? What should be entertainment in this voyeuristic society?

[951-Riverside]

42. BULLSHIT acmejack!

All that I've seen are instructed to show their hands and get on the ground afterwards they are taken away where they are asked questioned and sent off for processing.

[Bluebear]

45. I certainly have seen the police perform full-on tackles.

Whatever your view, it is not bullshit to assert that some of the takedowns seem to be overkill, with the police saying they are doing it for their own protection since they don't know if the predator is armed.

[Kingshakabobo]

47. You are correct Bluebear......

In one instance, they mentioned SEVERAL times that they had to be especially rough because they were in a concealed carry state. I believe it was Florida. Funny how a citizen's "right" to carry give police license to act violently in apprehending a non-violent offender/suspect.:crazy:

[Zookeeper]

124. While I don't really mind seeing child molesters being...

manhandled, the police reaction when the guys walk out of the house is pretty laughable. It seems quite theatrical and overblown. There was even an episode where an officer was dressed like a shrub (covered in leaves) and jumped out at the predator. :eyes:

[unblock]

136. one guy, they tackled, full on, while his hands were up in the air

then they interviewed him with a cut over his eye and a big streak of blood going down his nose across his face and off his chin. he couldn't wipe himself clean because he was cuffed, of course, and no one would bother to clean him up....

completely unnecessary and unprovoked.

[acmejack]

51. Damn, it's my lying eyes again!

Sorry about that. I'll be sure to check with you in the future and make sure what I saw was actually what took place. I'm confident that you personally have, of course, watched every episode of this show?

[madmusic]

49. That's funny when you think about it...

The cops come rushing out with guns drawn and take the dangerous and deadly criminal down. Chris Hansen is a brave soldier by comparison since he just looked the dangerous and deadly criminal in the eye and told the dangerous and deadly criminal he's going to put him on national television.

[Bluebear]

50. Funny observation :)

:toast:

[XanaDUer]

40. My 0.02...

It is interesting that the "COPS" concept is starting to make its way up the socioeconomic ladder.

[Quantess]

46. I think it's good that someone is catching them. (EOM)

[undeterred]

48. its sensational television

They've shown some of these shows repeatedly.

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, its shocking how easy it is to get men to respond to this type of thing. All of these men could be looking for same age partners of either sex on the internet, and they're choosing underage partners.

On the other hand, dateline is 'entrapping' people. Most of the men say they had no intention of following through on having sex. The truth is, some of them might not have, and their reputations are pretty much ruined.

If dateline would do this without televising it- oh, but why would they?

[TheMadMonk]

57. Why are you shocked. Check the research. What little there is.

Men are preprogrammed to view adolescents as desirable breeding partners: Healthy and unlikely to be burdened with the raising of some other blokes kids. Conversely, girls/women of breeding age have a preference for older, successful men, established in the world with means to support their partner and children.

Boys tend to mature more slowly than girls, because it protects them from knocking heads with those successful, older men with the ability and the desire to smack down up and coming rivals with deadly force.

And history bears this out.

This was all well and good, when sexual, physical, societal and emotional maturity all come together at roughly the same time, mid to late teens for girls and late teens to early twenties for boys. For whatever reason(s) this is no longer the case, and the various maturities are all over the place like a dog's breakfast. However the physical cues still remain the same in the parts of our brains below the level of conscious thought.

What keeps us from acting is a social behavioural overlay. And yet the porn shops remain stacked to the rafters with material that pushes the envelope as closely as the law will allow.


To address a point made earlier. That this program (To Catch a Predator) spends more time on homosexual paedophilia (I'm taking the poster's word for it here since I haven't seen the show.) would seem to be a damning indictment of modern homophobic society. And it would seem to be born out in media reporting of actual crimes involving children. Men who prey on girls, when caught, are quickly dealt with and forgotten usually before their trial, unless there is something particularly sensational or gruesome in their crime. On the other hand, when it's men and boys, the press (and public) wallows in it, hauls in the expert talking heads, and keeps the story alive seemingly forever.

[DemReadingDU]

60. I have seen the show many times.

It is mostly always an older man chatting with a female decoy posing as a 14 year old girl.

[undeterred]

65. I spent a couple of weeks on a tour in Brazil

There were bars there where girls aged 12-15 danced topless, and most of the people in my group went. All of the men went, come to think of it. Its not illegal there. I didn't go, but I couldn't judge anyone who did.

[Goblinmonger]

71. I could

If you are getting off watching a nude 12-15 year old and you are in your late 20s and beyond, you have some problems.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

116. Tell me where they are and I'll help bust them. Believe me, I CAN do something.

Otherwise, I'll have to assume you're pulling this out of thin air.

[Zookeeper]

125. I think it's fair to judge a guy who patronizes a business...

that employs 12 year old girls as topless dancers. Were you really comfortable with that?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

143. Before I forget, yes, it IS illegal. You witnessed a crime, and have an obligation to report it.

So? I'm waiting. Where's the info?

[TheMadMonk]

66. Like I said. I was taking an earlier poster's word for it.

And it doesn't negate the first part of my post.

From a purely evolutionary point of view, (The selfish gene meme) young girls (just past puberty) are the ideal sex/breding partners for men. And older men who have demonstrated an ability to survive and acquire the wherewithal of survival make ideal sex/breeding partners for the girls.

[Zookeeper]

126. I have seen you make this point twice now....

and, I think, on a thread last week. You are worrying me.

I'll just mention that my 14 year old daughter thinks any male over the age of 19 is old and "gross."

[Kingshakabobo]

53. For me......

......this falls in to the category of "you can't cheat an honest man." It's hard to feel sorry for these people because they are up to no good but I can't help but feel that 99.% of the talk that goes on between fat old men and teenage girls is just that - talk. .....

......Then comes along Suzie jail-bait and the "perfect scenario" of a desire to sleep with a fat old man, a big empty house and no parental supervision......"Come on over! The back door will be left open."


Kind of the Nigerian businessman scam for dirty old men.

Am I for busting pedophiles? Yes........Am I for seeing chris Hansen getting punched in his smug-sensational-tabloid-journalist face? Yes that too.

edit to change: Chris Hansen not Stone Phillips.....but yes, him too.

[distantearlywarning]

54. What I always think when I see one of these:

What the hell makes these fat old ugly dudes think that some hot 14 year old would actually want to sleep with them? I think they should all be arrested for outstanding self-delusion and arrogance. The sheer pathetic gall demonstrated by perps on this show, combined with the narcissistic tantrums you see every year during American Idol auditions, makes me think more than anything else that America is completely doomed.

Dear America: as a matter of fact, you can't fucking sing, and no 14 year olds want to get in your pants. Really.

[DemReadingDU]

58. Why do they use 14 year old girls as the setup?

Why not 13? Why not 15?

My husband thinks that guys become sexually aware of girls beginning at 14. He says that the guys get emotionally stuck at that age! lol

Another point...Have there been any studies of 14 year old girls on the Internet who sexually try to attract older men? There probably are a few 14 year old girls trying to pickup older men, but hardly the majority as the Dateline predator show imply.

[Quantess]

88. I believe they mix it up, and sometimes pose as 12 year olds, etc.

[JI7]

63. i always wondered about that also

based on the pics of the setup girls they are far more attractive than many of the guys they lure. shouldn't that in itself point to it being some setup. even if the girls wanted an older guy it wouldn't be many of these guys they catch.

but i'm thinking maybe they feel they have some power over them since they are older. they think they will amaze them with the money they have or the alcohol they can bring.

[NJCher]

56. would you feel differently if you knew their brains were wired differently?

Maybe it's not just stupidity. Maybe it's an addiction.

Some of these guys have been caught twice! The ones caught twice looked like dim bulbs, though.

We don't excuse or condone behavior due to addiction, however there is some exculpatory value to addiction, otherwise people like Foley wouldn't say they're alcoholics.

These Dateline guys are probably sociopaths--people who do what's important to their needs and to hell with the consequences for anyone else. Sociopaths are especially devastating when they are in the financial services field and cheat people out of their life savings and retirement funds. Then there are big-time scammers like Jeff Skilling and his colleagues at Enron.

Do we sympathize with people like Jeff Skilling? No. But the fact is, their brains are different. That has been proven by the research of Dr. Robert Hare, whose work I have followed over the past 15-20 years. His findings have been accepted by law enforcement.

These Dateline guys are probably sociopaths like Skilling. Skilling directed his efforts toward financial gain; these Dateline guys have a hangup about sex with children.



Cher

[Quantess]

59. What an odd choice of words:

"..these Dateline guys have a hangup about sex with children."
Sounds like something the NAMBLA guys would say.

[unblock]

61. way to twist someone's words

cher was obviously talking about how the dateline producers seem to obsess about the topic, presumably either get off vicarious talking about it and/or exploiting their audience who in turn gets off vicariously talking about it.

seems a valid point to me.

i hardly think she was thinking in terms of defending the nambla guys, nor do i see how her words accomplish that.

[Quantess]

62. I don't think I said anything wrong.

How do you know I wasn't asking for clarification?

[hfojvt]

96. no, "Dateline guys" meant "the guys who show up looking for sex"

or the Dateline perps.

[Quantess]

98. Oh! Now I understand what she meant. Thanks. (EOM)

[karlrschneider]

64. I don't think it's even remotely real. Actors pretending to be ...whoever's on that stupid fucking

show.

[renie408]

74. I have some problems with the way they handle the filming

Until these guys are convicted of a crime, don't they have the right to refuse to allow their images to be used on TV?

Other than that, I have an 11 year old daughter who just bought her first training bra and who is constantly lobbying for her own Myspace (I could KILL the mother of one of her close friends for allowing her kid to have one!). I have NO problem with aggressively pursuing pedophiles and predators. I also tend to think that if those guys were so far gone as to arrange a meeting with a 12-13 year old, this isn't the first time they have engaged in this kind of activity. Even if all it does is give law enforcement a head's up to check them out, it's fine with me.

[Infinite Hope]

82. I think the argument would be...

that he surrendered his privacy by inviting a stranger into his home. It's similar to the "abandoned property" legal argument.

[unblock]

86. but these guys are going TO the sting house

so i think the legal argument must be that the sting house is public property, which it would be if it actually were owned by the state for such purposes. but then my qualms about this are that the predator is clearly led to believe that the sting house is PRIVATE property, so he can't know that his image and actions can be taped and aired against his will.

[madmusic]

94. Camera-happy AZ sheriff under fire

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0912jailcam0912.html">Inmates must be paid $500 each

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Arizona is nothing if not Web-savvy:

* Four Web cams in the booking area
* Web cam showing women prisoners partly undressed as they used the toilet

The cameras drew 6 million hits within a few days and were touted as the first live cameras in a working jail. The net broadcasts fell, of course, to protests of invasion of privacy and due process. The sheriff's office has to pay $500 to each of 11 inmate plaintiffs (down from $50k each for 55,000 inmates filmed).

There's no video now on his site, but Arpaio says the cameras are part of a safe jail: "You don't stop the wheels of government because some civil liberties group is going to sue you."

http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/2006/09/camerahappy_az_.html

Why wouldn't this be as illegal?

[Infinite Hope]

104. Even though it's his house...

...it'd be the same as if the child brought a camera and took pictures. I believe the Supreme Court would (if it hasn't already) apply a "reasonable person test" which looks at what a reasonable person would think. And a reasonable person who invites a stranger into their own home knows that they are subjecting themselves to harm, pictures, cameras, police, and any other unknown because a stranger is just that, a strange situation. So the argument would be that a reasonable person should know they are knowingly and intentionally inviting unknown circumstances and thereby knowingly/intentionally surrendering their privacy rights.

Just the same as they could be outted by a person who comes for sex.

Further, if the person who they chatted with on the computer enters the home with the cops, it's legal in another way: It's a private party search and the individual is divulging the information and the crime to the officers.

So there are actually a few angles I've recalled that make this constitutional and I'm sure there are many that I'm unaware of - though Dateline's lawyers and law enforcement have certainly dug through past court cases and laid out all their constitutional merit before beginning this show.

[unblock]

108. in the dateline operation, i think it's all private people

the online chatters are from "perverted justice", which, afaik, is a private, presumably non-profit, organization.
dateline nbc is obviously a for-profit corporation.

i think neither is law enforcement and i'm not sure how that plays into it.

[Infinite Hope]

115. I was sure officers were there, but if not...

it's considered a private party search which is legal. Further, the privacy principles still apply.

Though the first time I saw it, law enforcement explained how they proceeded (only responding to the suggestions of the pedophile) so as to avoid entrapment allegations. He was at the computer doing it. Maybe they stopped using officers.

[MadHound]

92. I have no problem with police setting up and running these sorts of operations, however

I find the notion of corporate America filming these stings, interviewing the suspects, making a profit off of this sort of spectacle disturbing on many different levels. What's next, "To catch a pothead?" NBC setting up supposed crackhouses, interviewing addicts before they're carted off to jail? Oh, yeah, that's right, Fox already has that market covered with COPS. Yay:eyes:

[Hippo_Tron]

93. I'm sure a lesser sentence just for "intent" than axual contact with a minor

So I don't really have a problem with it.

[aikoaiko]

99. The perverts are often charged with solicitation

In this way the stings are no different from the stings involving fake hookers, fake drugs, etc.

Actually showing up at a place where ostensibly there is an unsupervised underage teen is plenty good to meet the criterion of solicitation.

The perverts can want to have sex with little girls all they want. They can even proclaim their desires on the internet, but being arrested for setting up what they think is a illicit rendevous is not a thought crime because action was taken.



My favorite pervert bust:

Rabbi Sentenced In Internet Sex Sting
By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 2, 2006; Page B03

A Maryland rabbi caught in a television sting operation was sentenced to 6 1/2 years in prison yesterday for trying to solicit sex from a 13-year-old boy over the Internet.

David A. Kaye, 56, told the judge that he traveled to Herndon for what he thought would be sex with a boy "as a cry out for help to fight my personal demons." Sobbing as he acknowledged his father, who sat in the courtroom in a wheelchair, Kaye said his conviction had made him face "the reality of who I am. . . . I know I need help. I pray that God allows me to get that help."

blah blah blah.

[ironflange]

100. These guys can probably beat the raps

Provided they find reasonably smart lawyers. Seeing as how they've been on national television with this, though, their lives are pretty well screwed anyway. I'm thinking right now of the prominent surgeon (I think) who was bagged, then had to call his wife with the happy news. I actually felt a little sorry for him. Just a little. Then there's the one who brought his five-year-old son along. . .

Have a seat.
 \

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

101. I Think It's Great. These Are Obviously Scumbags Of Which We All Should Be Grateful Are Apprehended

prior to their committing a sexual offense of further sexual offense.

No mixed feelings about it whatsoever on my end. It's a creative and effective method that has taken quite a few perverted sick fucks off of the streets already.

Nothin but a thumbs up from me! :thumbsup:

[everythingsxen]

102. As someone who values freedom and the rights of the accused, let me just say..

Fuck 'em.

These people are pretty much utter scum and are all jazzed up at the thought of banging a little kid. Personally, I kind of like the media hook to it. It then lets other kids who may have been molested see this person. I think pedophiles should get counseling and should be treated, but they should also never be able to hurt a kid.

[Book Lover]

105. I hold both pity and contempt for people who find this entertaining

What is the point of watching this show? To prove to yourself how much better you are than a pedophile? To reassure yourself that the "cops are doing their jobs"? I don't need to see an enema televised to know that it is a disgusting but necessary part of life. Same applies here. Turn off the damn tv, people.

[Quantess]

106. It's not as entertaining as the "Flavor of Love", that's for damn sure.

(Flavor Flav's reality romance competition.)

[FreeStateDemocrat]

111. There is something disgusting about this being turned into entertainment & profit making by NBC.

There may be nothing at all wrong with stopping this type of behavior but what is the motivation of televising and viewing this type of pathetic human actions. NBC may plead loftier ideals but if the rating didn't generate the revenue, the network would move along to exploiting some other deviate level of sensationalism to titillate a jaded, voyeuristic, lowbrow audience. Some people get their kicks watching other people humiliate themselves in degrading situations and that is somewhat disquieting to me.

[NYCGirl]

122. The "motivation of televising" this is that if the thought of having their faces

broadcast all over the US as a predator makes even one of these scumbuckets think twice about emailing a photo of their dick to someone he thinks is little 14-year old Mary Sue, Dateline has done something good.

[Zookeeper]

129. My kids have seen it and it has made more of an impression...

on them than all of my warnings. My daughter was suspicious of a guy on MySpace who claimed to be 19 and was trying to "sweet talk" her. Her response was, "F**k off, perv!" And he disappeared.

As sensational as the show is, it does bring the subject out in the open. Which I think is quite empowering for potential victims.

[OneBlueSky]

109. I despise this show . . . because it's the definition of entrapment . . .

chances are very high that 95% (if not more) of these guys would never in a million years have an opportunity to meet up with a kid he chatted with online -- UNLESS and until NBC provided a willing "minor" . . .

most (if not virtually all) kids these days are WAY too savvy to ever meet with an online predator -- and most of these guys are W-A-A-A-Y too stupid and immature to actually be able to talk someone into meeting with them . . . the NBC imposter was very likely the first and ONLY instance of that happening in their undoubtedly lonely and isolated lives of deviant fantasy . . . they were probably so shocked (and delighted) that someone they fantasized about actually wanted to be with them that they lost all common sense and good judgement -- and confused their fantasies with what they perceived to be reality . . . rather than an NBC script . . .

I am NOT excusing their actions, mind you . . . I'm just saying that they were led to do something that likely never would have happened without NBC's aggressive involvement . . . and THAT'S entrapment . . . so while I don't excuse them, I do pity them . . . no crime would have been committed EXCEPT that NBC provided the entire setup -- INCLUDING the invitations and the directions to where to meet . . .

and NBC turning the whole charade into "infotainment" is beyond disgusting . . . I know that the media these days will do ANYTHING for ratings, but this goes way beyond ethical journalism, and certainly beyond legality and good taste . . . it's NOT okay to entrap drug dealers, it's NOT okay to entrap thieves -- and it's NOT okay to entrap sexual "predators" -- who, absent NBC's aggressive and irresponsible "journalism," would very likely have remained lonely and isolated in their fantasy worlds . . .

[yasmina27]

110. This is actively occurring in our neighborhood

literally.

Last year, our (middle school) principals HUSBAND was nabbed in one of these sting operations. He had arranged to meet this 13 y.o. girl (aka uncover cop) at a fast food joint near our home. Found in his car were condoms and maps to the area. They had hard copies of instant messages between them where he talked about her not getting pregnant, dirty details of what he wanted to do.

As the mother of 2 tween girls who haven't yet discovered chat rooms, Myspace, or instant messaging, whatever can be done to catch and/or discourage these sickos is OK with me.

[trumad]

112. Only on DU will you find some who are against sting operations for Predators.

"Entrapment?---too funny...

Here's what I think they should do...after they catch them....they should then take them to a back room where another NBC camera is set up....and then they should perform a public castration... No trial... just whack...

Fuck these pieces of shit.

[Sapere aude]

128. Do you have a little of Freud's reaction formation going here?

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unblock]

137. what a nice, constructive contribution to the discussion

:hi:

[trumad]

142. Well it's deleted but me=thinks telling someone to fuck off

for telling me that I have predator like tendencies because I want to see them castrated--- well,,,

[Judi Lynn]

130. I think of people who are so wildly self-obsessed they have NO protective posture

toward less powerful people as being REPUBLICANS! It's their thing.

I'll betcha a perv poll would reveal a 90% Republican composition. Not kidding.

The only beings they purport to protect are the ones who are preconscious. Maybe they identify with them.

[unblock]

138. not sure who you're responding to

but i'm not at all against sting operations in general and certainly not sting operations targeting pedophiles.

my qualms are about this particular brand of sting operation, given what i understand of the details, such as the involvement of the media and other private concerns, and lack of any actual minors.

i would love to see a sting operation that didn't have these problems.

critique is not opposition.

[H2O Man]

113. I think it's a good thing.

I'm glad they are putting it on tv.

[porphyrian]

114. As long as they aren't somehow entrapping people who aren't child molesters, I'm OK with it.

However, when you create a show or segment of a show that relies on people getting lured in, I worry about their priorities and methods, which may lead to some innocent folks getting lured in for ratings. Accusations of pedophilia are very difficult to erase, especially once they've been televised.

[LanternWaste]

118. While it's always nice to know that another perv bites the dust...

While it's always nice to know that another perv bites the dust, I do have certain problems with it...

1. Enforcement of the law purely for ratings and spectator entertainment. It's programs like this that reinforce the Stephen King/Richard Bachman, 'Running Man' syndrome. Taking this further, it's easy to envision a court of law being held in a stadium and then charging an arm and a leg for tickets.

2. The Law (big-L law, that is) should act in a proactive manner to remain as neutral and as non-biased as possible. It is a belief of mine that the Law should be placed on a very high pedestal, or in other words, the Law is not something to be packaged, marketed and then sold for advertising. I think the Dateline show (and COPS, also) cheapen it.

So we have the chase televised. We're soon getting to the point in which the trial is also. The next step? Televising the punishment phase; "Up next on Channel 9 after the news-- catch The Billy Goodwin Execution, brought to you ny Tylenol"

That being said, I'm not completely against it as it does appear to be raising public awareness of this problem, and hopefully parents will be more careful in monitoring their child's internet usage after seeing a program like this.

[elehhhhna]

119. I thinkl this: WHAT IDIOT SIGNS A RELEASE to allow his bust to be aired

on national television?

[Judi Lynn]

132. I'll bet they are hoping to get a better deal from the court. Just a guess. n/t

[NYCGirl]

139. I think that the moment they commit the crime (they show up at the house

for the meeting), they forfeit their rights — so I think there's no release forms involved.

[unblock]

140. that's one of my questions. does ANY arrest void your image rights?

so if i can find a corrupt police officer willing to arrest anyone i want them to, i can broadcast anyone's image on national television for any reason, just so long as my friend the officer arrests them afterwards on some trumped-up charge that's later dropped?

this is why i think that it's gotta be either public property or a signed release. and the signed release implies payment to the predator, which i'm not keen on.

[elehhhhna]

144. They don't identify the crooks on "COPS"... so I'm thinking the pervs sign waivers.

[tammywammy]

121. I don't like the Perverted Justice people

I've read about them. They'll troll on yahoo, and then find out everything about the person and contact neighbors, jobs, etc. And they've been WRONG. They're vigilantes when working on their own. They don't always hand over their evidence to the police either.

I don't care about police using these sting operations. I have a problem with the individuals from Perverted Justice, that don't work with the police, that continue to harass and intimidated the person.

http://www.corrupted-justice.com/

They talk about what goes on behind the scenes at Perverted Justice.

I also want to make myself clear, I'm not against the police using the internet to catch these people hitting on and making sexual conversations with teenagers.

edited: spelling :(

[Sapere aude]

127. What can you say about a society that is attracted to this shit?

You are just as sick as the perp to want to watch a show that uses a sting to get ratings. So the perps are creeps, so is the audience in my book. Go read a good book and turn this shit off! America needs informed voters not voyeur tv junkies.

[unblock]

141. personally i never would have selected the show

i'm not fond of shows that dwell on the worst of humanity.
it was mrs. unblock's selection, and i was just finishing up in the kitchen.
in fact, i haven't actually turn on the television in years.

so, how nice of you to call my wife a creep.
but i'll have you know she's an informed voter, too.

:hi:

[MrCoffee]

145. i think all trials should be like this...forget the judge, the jury, all of it

just show what The Editors think is the most damnning evidence they can, present it with a overly-dramatic narrator, and let the blood-thirsty public lynch whoever the clearly guilty bastard is.

who needs criminal justice, anyway?

[unblock]

146. ah yes. there once was a dream called rome....