free will is holy

[sweetheart]

Your free choice is holy in life,
it is the will of god on earth,
government exists to answer to your free choice,
your happiness, your free will and your right to life.

We can change anything, ANYTHING we want. We are not bound by the chains of the past.
If we cannot change it, then we are NOT free, yes?

Jesus was born on some day, maybe not this one, many years ago,
but he was born with free will in an age of oppression. We
celibrate his free will, his liberation, by being free and unowned by any
voice but god, your own free will unmodified by the presumption of
propaganda and mammon. In the spirit of jesus, of free will, of god, your god
wherever that god may be, if it be no god other than free will itself,..
god bless you.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Choose to choose again

we always have free choice-it is as close as our next breath. Thanks for posting.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. uhhh... free will may not exist

Liberalism and neurology
Free to choose?

Dec 19th 2006
From The Economist print edition
Modern neuroscience is eroding the idea of free will

IN THE late 1990s a previously blameless American began collecting child pornography and propositioning children. On the day before he was due to be sentenced to prison for his crimes, he had his brain scanned. He had a tumour. When it had been removed, his paedophilic tendencies went away. When it started growing back, they returned. When the regrowth was removed, they vanished again. Who then was the child abuser?

http://economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8453850

[sweetheart]

4. The economist supported bush

The economist is about as accurate a news source as a sheep,
they bleat with the corporate line in synchronicity, asleep,
a chip in the brain and we'll all change so sweet,
in to our borg collective; no small feat.

[johnaries]

7. OK, don't believe the Economist. How about USAToday?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-07-28-pedophile-tumor_x.htm

Yes, we do have "free will" in the sense that we make decisions every day. But why do we choose to make those decisions? Usually, our decisions are influenced by environmental, biological, genetic, or educational variables that are out of our control. Hence, in a much larger sense we do not have free will.

Let's consider a current public debate: do people choose to be hetero or homosexual, or is it a function of biology?

If you believe it to be a choice, please tell me at what stage in your life you made your decision?

[sweetheart]

22. Are we the body?

Why are USA today and other corporate news outlets pushing the big news
that we are slaves of our neurobiology, unable to make free choices except
those programmed by marketeers of stimulated consumption.

In meditation, one can step back from 'thought' and be like the blue sky
with thoughts passing through hither nither. If the free will to stop
and be awake to the totality of the right to choose is something biological,
it is equally something mystical, and rooted in a decision of the soul
to be vigilant for the viral implants of 'thought'.

Thoughts are a virus. They are not ours, but someone elses, programmed by
the machine and injected in to our every waking consciousness until we identify
with them, and the process of 'thinking', without backing up, like you suggest,
to the original point of choice, where we decided to identify with a thought.

Some theology might call the mantle of inherited thoughts 'original sin'.
And through love/free will/jesus christ/holy spirit, we have the opportunity,
the choice to absolve that sin here and now.

Isn't every moment freedom, even if it is given away to the appearance of bondage?

[trekbiker]

36. Religion is a virus.

It spreads like a virus and kills rational thought.

[Crandor]

41. How rational is it to take what we've known for centuries, pretend it's new research, and then

draw a total non-sequitur conclusion from it? Of course a defective brain will affect actions. You make the assumption that that means free will doesn't exist. Which is like saying that since a quadriplegic can't move their limbs, it must be because the brain doesn't control limbs. Exact same kind of logic, just a little further down the chain.

[H2O Man]

25. The first part

of your post is accurate and on target. We are an organic machine, and the genetic helps create the environment, generation upon generation.

The part about sexual identity is not a valid factor in determining if "free will" is real, or even a potential. It's part of the machine's identity, no more or less so than how tall we are, or what color our eyes are.

Likewise, the example a couple posts up, regarding the brain tumor, is not of much value in the debate. The relationship between brain tumors and pedophilia is almost nonexistant. Most adults who prey upon children do not have brain tumors, nor do most people with brain tumors prey upon children. Rather, it is a sick behavior that is most often associated with childhood abuse. The fact that many people victimized as children do not offend as adults is rather clear evidence of free will.

There are a number of schools of thought that believe that frre will is a human potential, accessed by conscious evolution. These include, but are not limited to, Piotr Demianovich Ouspensky and Viktor Frankl. I find their works worthy of conscious consideration.

[conscious evolution]

35. 'accessed by conscious evolution.'

Gotta say I like that idea!!

[Odin2005]

29. It's no use arguing with Sweetheart.

She seems to think philosophical materialists like myself are nothing but tools of the corporatists. :banghead:

As far as I'm concerned the notion of "free will" is BS because it violates the laws of physics.

[Crandor]

39. Which law does it violate? nt

[Odin2005]

42. Casuality

On the macroscopic scale things not just happen with no cause (they do on the quantum scale but that is irrelavent on the scales I am talking about and even if it did it would not allow free will because randomness does not equal free will). The notion of "free will" requires an "unmoved mover" that "pulls the strings," so free will only makes sense if one beleives an a "soul" and I don't believe in such things as "souls" Our brain is simply an extremely powerful computer that can re-write some of it's programs (AKA "learn") All "conscious" thought untimately relies on various instincts to function, indeed, one book I've read stated that humans have more instincts then any other animal, all those instincts are necessary to make "conscous" thought possible.

[Crandor]

43. That's not a law.

and besides,
so free will only makes sense if one beleives an a "soul" and I don't believe in such things as "souls"
There's your problem; you reject provable fact just because it goes against your faith. Science has to be based on observation, which of course implies an observer. Since there is no way to determine whether any given object is conscious or not, consciousness, though it must exist, cannot be a part of the physical (observable) world. Doesn't mean free will has to exist, but it does mean your "philisophical materialism" is incompatible with science.

[WiseButAngrySara]

3. Beautiful and inspiring post! Free will is holy. ....n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. Free will is an illusion.

From the viewpoint of neurobiology, there's no such thing; the illusion of conscious will is nothing more than an epiphenomenon of consciousness.

[Hekate]

6. And fromt he viewpoint of quantum physics, we choose with every moment

Buddhism agrees. We choose. We are more than the sum of our parts, greater than the sum of our experiences -- if we choose.

Hekate

[johnaries]

9. I think you have misunderstood both Quantum Physics and

Buddhism.

As far as Quantum Physics is concerned, yes there are many reactions where a particle is in an indeterminate state until an observer determines the state. However, the observer does not "choose" the final state, he or she merely observes it.

As far as Buddhism.... well, I'm a Taoist. Some Taoist traditions hold that Lao tse tried to teach Buddha, but Buddha never quite "got it". :evilgrin: So I won't argue Buddhism with you.

[Hekate]

14. I believe in free will, always have, was raised that way

Eh, I just reached in the grabbag of my mind and at that moment that's what popped up.

I know much more about Buddhism than "quantism", but watched "What the bleep do we know" night before last and was impressed by the synchronicity of how both systems believe we can change our minds. Buddhism teaches mind-discipline as a lifelong practice; the physicists and medical doctors in the movie observed changes in the brain structure that supports thought and memory, depending on the thoughts a person obsesses on...

So Lao Tse met the Buddha on the Way, did he?

Reminds me of a man I met two summers ago, a Chinese Zen master. While my husband did walking meditation with him and drew ideograms in the mud to illustrate his questions, I kept thinking Master Hsu really fit what I imagined a Taoist would be.

But never mind. I go off on tangents quite readily. :-)

Hekate

[johnaries]

16. Hey, I like to get tangental myself!

Frankly, I was really disappointed in "What the Bleep..." although I can't remember enough about it now to remember why I was disappointed. Either old age is catching up with me, or the drugs of my youth are. (Kids, don't do drugs!)

Well, frankly, it's doubtful that the Great Teacher (as Lao tse translates) ever really existed. But the "tradition" illustrates how similar and yet different Taoism and Buddhism are.

One thing that I like about Taoism is it's acceptance of "seeming paradoxes". For instance, when people ask me whether I believe in Free Will or Fate, I answer "Both". As I stated in a previous post, yes, we have Free Will in that we are free to make decisions daily and we are responsible for our actions. However, on another level, the decisions we make often do depend on variables outside of our control.

Did you ever see "The Devil's Advocate"? Although I can't remember the exact quote Towards the end, the Devil says something like sure you have free will - but I can set things up so you'll make any decision I want you to.

[Hekate]

20. Haven't seen "The Devil's Advocate"...

... Manipulation certainly is a force to be reckoned with.

Like any freedom, free will is not absolute, certainly not for most people. However, when I was about 20 I was impressed by (to the point of never forgetting) reading the psychoanalyst Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning", which grew out of his experiences in a concentration camp during the Holocaust. At the last, when all else is taken away, what remains is your choice of attitude.

He didn't come by this lightly, nor do I recall it lightly. The past couple of years have been very dark for me, and I am now trying to pull myself out of it bit by bit, partly by medication and partly by trying to change my attitude moment by moment.

That's why parts of the movie "What the bleep" resonated with me when I saw it the other day -- in a sense it's beside the point whether or not I understand quantum physics or whether they got it exactly right. What matters is my free will in the matter.

Hekate

[johnaries]

27. Everyone must find their own path.

So, whatever works for you to help pull you out of your dark times is the path you should take. Whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with you.

I wish you luck and hope you find the path that's best for you!

Speaking of attitude, here's something humorous that I got in my email. Who is happiest, the dog or the cat? I've always been a dog person, myself.

Excerpts from a Dog's Daily Diary:
8:00 am - Dog food! My favorite thing!
9:30 am - A car ride! My favorite thing!
9:40 am - A walk in the park! My favorite thing!
10:30 am - Got rubbed and petted! My favorite thing
12:00 pm - Lunch! My favorite thing!
1:00 pm - Placed in the yard! My favorite thing!
3:00 pm - Wagged my tail! My favorite thing!
5:00 pm - Milk bones! My favorite thing!
7:00 pm - Got to play ball! My favorite thing!
8:00 pm - Wow! Watched TV with the people! My favorite thing!
11:00 pm - Sleeping on the bed! My favorite thing!


Excerpts from a Cat's Daily Diary:
Day 683 of my captivity:

My captors continue to taunt me with bizarre little dangling
objects. They dine lavishly on fresh meat, while the other inmates and I
are fed hash or some sort of dry nuggets. Although I make my contempt
for the rations perfectly clear, I nevertheless must eat something in
order to keep up my strength.

The only thing that keeps me going is my dream of escape. In an
attempt to disgust them, I once again vomit on the floor.

Today I decapitated a mouse and dropped its headless body at
their feet. I had hoped this would strike fear into their hearts, since
it clearly demonstrates what I am capable of. However, they merely
made condescending comments about what a "good little hunter" I am. The
audacity!

There was some sort of assembly of their accomplices tonight. I
was placed in solitary confinement for the duration of the event.
However, I could hear the noises and smell the food. I overheard that my
confinement was due to the power of "allergies." I must learn what this
means, and how to use it to my advantage.

Today I was almost successful in an attempt to assassinate one
of my tormentors by weaving around his feet as he was walking. I must
try this again tomorrow -- but at the top of the stairs.

I am convinced that the other prisoners here are flunkies and
snitches. The dog receives special privileges. He is regularly released
- and seems to be more than willing to return. He is obviously
retarded!

The bird has got to be an informant. I observe him communicate
with the guards regularly. I am certain that he reports my every move.
My captors have arranged protective custody for him in an elevated cell,
so he is safe ....

....... for now...

[Az]

17. Careful with that movie

It is not a fair representation of the current state of science. It is in fact a rather biased and often misinformed take on the science of the mind.

[Cameron27]

34. I got the book as a present

and threw it out. Science with a twist of Christianity; not only warping quantum mechanics, but putting a plug for creationism in too.

[omega minimo]

19. The presence of the observer affects the particle state, not "merely observes it"

"As far as Quantum Physics is concerned, yes there are many reactions where a particle is in an indeterminate state until an observer determines the state. However, the observer does not "choose" the final state, he or she merely observes it. "

There's a "seeming paradox" there that your comment reduces to Either/Or (observer "chooses" or "merely observes").



"One thing that I like about Taoism is it's acceptance of "seeming paradoxes". For instance, when people ask me whether I believe in Free Will or Fate, I answer "Both". As I stated in a previous post, yes, we have Free Will in that we are free to make decisions daily and we are responsible for our actions. However, on another level, the decisions we make often do depend on variables outside of our control."

[LostInAnomie]

8. Agreed

We think free will exists because of the limits of our own consciousness. If we had the ability to take any moment in time and completely examine every subconscious drive, every neurobiological impulse, etc. we would find that the control we have over any situation let alone ourselves is near zero.

[aikoaiko]

11. Bingo -- free will is just a lame substitute for not understanding what determines choices IMHO.

nt

[Crandor]

12. That's great news for totalitarians.

Nothing wrong with taking away people's freedom if they didn't have any to start with, right?

[sweetheart]

21. Yes, the corporate science arm of the machine

One has to wonder what big corporate neurscience is really studying,
besides better and more total ways to control populations.

If there is no free will here, then isn't ironic how many corporate
voices leap out of the darkness to reassure uz we can never awaken
from the slave dream.

[Odin2005]

30. I am SICK AND TIRED of you calling us scientists corporate cronies.

If you are goung to do nothing except bash us scientists just shut up. Research isn't wrong just because you don't like the implications of it.

[LeftishBrit]

32. Or perhaps neuroscience will help us to find ways of PREVENTING dictators and demagogues from

controlling us.

Scientific research is for the purpose of gaining knowledge, and knowledge can be used for good or evil. I would have thought that a supporter of free will would want us to get as much knowledge as possible, and then choose to use it for good purposes.

[Odin2005]

31. You are falling for the same bad logic as Sweetheat.

You can't call the results of research incorrect just because you don't like the moral and political implications.

[Crandor]

40. Show me the research proving there's no free will. nt

[Az]

13. Was going to say much the same thing

We do not choose what impulses and drives we have. A tumor can change a person's identity and morality. A closed head injury can change your memories or cause you to become obsessed with food.

The more we learn about the brain the more we come to understand how our perception of freewill is generated. But the truth seems to be that our behaviour and identity result from a predictible cascade of events within our brain.

We enjoy the illusion of freewill because we cannot personally pierce the sense of choice. But our choices are all informed by weighted emotional relations stored within our memories giving rise to our sense of choice.

[Vidar]

24. The alternative is some version of "The molecules made me do it".

[snot]

10. If I stand for nothing else, I AM HERE TO TELL YOU:

Free will is not an illusion. But:

There can be no responsibility without freedom; no freedom, without power; no power, without knowledge; no knowledge, without love.

Please think about that.

I admit, it's hopeful, but I believe: there is in this life such a thing as bootstrapping. Through sincere effort, we CAN gain insight; and true insight is not JUST our greatest but our ONLY source of real power; and I do believe that that includes the power to choose new and better paths, which is to me the only power that matters.

[Az]

15. The illusion is quite complete

So much so that we may as well act with responsibility as we can never personally pierce our own particular sense of choice. But the fact remains that every aspect of your identity, morality, and memory can be affected by physical alteration of your brain. The mind and freewill follows from the actions taking place in the brain.

[peanutbrittle]

23. It can be argued that

the more abstract inner senses, one such as, say, intuition (gut feeling) precedes intellect thus being one of the more basic gifts of the inner senses given to man and showing itself as one of the basic tools of survival in the immature state of the human being. The point being, IMO, all senses physical and inner are a combination of God given and mans inherent ability to progress and evolve these senses.

[johnaries]

18. I'm sure you "choose" to believe that, also. But why

do you make that choice?

Could you seriously choose to believe otherwise? Or if you did, would it destroy everything else you choose to believe?

And how much of those beliefs do you choose to believe on your own, and how many of them do you believe because of outside influences? Were you raised that way? Or were you raised otherwise and chose these beliefs out of rebellion? If so, why did you choose to rebel?

How many decisions do you make every day because you feel you "have no choice"?

[mdmc]

26. love the sig. peace and low stress

:kick:R

[pitohui]

28. facts not in evidence, superstition is not proof

if i recall aright, jesus was executed on the cross, i happen to believe that being killed for one's beliefs is pretty good proof that you didn't have any free will to exercise

we have very little freedom in this world and fantasizing that we do is not useful

anything good that we struggle for comes at a high cost and often it does not come at all

the right wing worship of free will, the claim that all of us can bootstrap ourselves to the heavens, is nonsense

jesus himself was murdered, don't bother to tell me that i am likely to achieve more than jesus if i just put my mind to it

as far as god bless me, god and his so-called blessings can go to hell, he allowed katrina, he allowed his own son to be killed, apparently his blessings are not worth crap

sorry to be so angry but i think i have a right to be, god has turned his back on us, not just jesus, but on all of us

i believe christ's last words on the cross were my god, my god, why has thou forsaken me?

i'm tired of being "blessed" by a god who can't be arsed to exist, and i suspect jesus was getting a little tired of it at the end of the day as well

[LWolf]

33. Free will, choice, and perspective:

It appears that you have chosen to personify "god" in a particular way that the OP did not, and to respond to your personal personification. That's free will, too; to choose how to see, to choose an attitude, to choose how to think and feel, to choose a response.

We don't control anything outside of ourselves. We don't control the consequences of our choices, but we have free will in making those choices regardless of the consequences. Some choices have better odds than others, lol.

We can choose to hate. We can choose to fear. We can choose rage.

We can choose empathy, compassion, integrity. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what goes on outside of that choice.

We can choose to interact with the rest of the world in a positive or negative manner, regardless of how it is received.

With all of those choices out there, with free will reigning, many use that will to cling to hate, fear, rage, greed, power-mongering. Some are able to turn aside and choose empathy and compassion. Knowing that,

which choice do you think leads to physical and mental health? Who does hate, rage, and fear hurt the most? Those hated, raged against, and feared, or the hater, rager, fearful him/herself?

Just some things I ponder when I'm choosing how to interact with the world, how to think about spiritual matters, how to deal with the hand life deals me.

[trekbiker]

37. pick up a copy of "The God Delusion" by Dawkins.. good read

[mdmc]

38. kick

:hi: