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The latest on my battle with the neocons. (Update to the "Are You There, Lurkers?" articles.)

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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 05:22 PM
Original message
The latest on my battle with the neocons. (Update to the "Are You There, Lurkers?" articles.)
"One judges a man by the quality of his enemies." - Michael, Archangel

Al Smith, who lost the Presidency to Herbert Hoover in part due to his Catholicism, was known as "The Happy Warrior." For the first time in years, I can sympathize with the man who ran the Empire State Building, because I am indeed a happy warrior in the trenches today.

Brief recap for everyone: On October 30, I was doing a Google search for references to my comic strip, The New Adventures Of Queen Victoria, when I came across a hit on a certain neocon website with an eerily familiar name. Looking into it, I discovered that the hit was not from a reference to the strip, but to the link in my signature on Democratic Underground. What was quoted, in its entirety, was a post I had made on DU about problems we were having with Wachovia Bank, NA, with whom my mother and I had been tied up in court for over three years, along with abundant schadenfreude at our misfortune. Investigating it further, I discovered that the post was copied into a forum dedicated entirely to copying material wholesale from, and making fun of, members of Democratic Underground. Among the material in question were two copyrighted essays of mine and one instance of my comic strip.

The person running that site, as most cowards do, chose to hide his identity rather than own up to the hatred and bile associated with the site. He used a proxy domain company as his shield, and since I couldn't serve him with a Cease and Desist letter otherwise, I asked the company for his ID. They contacted him almost a month later, when they got around to my complaint, and told him to call me, which he did. I didn't want to talk with him right then due to a loud buzzing that was causing problems with my home phone, but he wouldn't allow me to call him back, and refused to provide his legal contact information so he could be served. I offered to settle for the removal of all my material, and the removal of that forum since the only purpose it served was for the illegal reproduction of others' writings. He refused. I went back to his anonymity provider and demanded his information.

At the same time, I started some research of my own. I got what appears to be all the relevant information needed to serve him, and had planned to do so after the first of the year. I mentioned this to another DU'er who was also suffering at their hands, and let him know I would be dealing with them. This sparked a great outcry on their part, including the reproduction of even more material of mine solely to goad me, while at the same time digging them a deeper hole. The events after that are pretty well documented in the existing articles and the discussion extending from them. This brings us to the current moment. Here, now, the latest.

1. I had suspected that I was going to have to change my tactics, and work up another set of C&D letters for this person's LLC, since the website now claims to be run by a Limited Liability Company. (In fact, one of the people involved in running the site suggested that they just dissolve the LLC and reform it under another name the next day to keep me from receiving any award if the case is found in my favor.) Turns out I may have to do that for the more recent (and more egregious) violations, but my work done so far was not wasted. The LLC runnning that site was not created until 12/7/2006 at 8:13 AM, when papers were filed in Nevada. As a result, the vast majority of violations in my planned complaint happened when he, personally, was legally the operator of the website, not some other legal entity. Thus, I will probably have grounds to sue him personally for the activity that took place under his watch that he failed (and refused) to guard against. More work for me, but work I don't mind. I had prepared, and was ready to link to, fill-in-the-blank C&D letters for those people whose material has also been used, but will be amending them to include both the LLC and the person personally responsible. Stay tuned.

2. Recent cases greatly undermine any fair use claim they might be willing to make. You see, they sell ads on that site and solicit donations. (One recent solicitation dates back to before the site's transfer to the LLC, too, so it was the individual who was collecting money, unlike Democratic Underground, LLC doing it for DU.) Since a lot of the traffic and activity on that site is generated by infringing and potentially infringing material (at last count over 40% of all threads on that site are dedicated to material copied from DU and journals like mine) they benefit financially from these infringements. This takes non-profit use out of the picture, which seems to have been (like Free Republic before them) one of their major defenses.

3. They seem obsessed with my own use of public domain material, even trying to make the case that I'm infringing on expired copyrights for photographs because I might (in their logic) be using someone else's copyrighted digital representation of those photographs. Sorry, despite your theories I'm not using a scan from Groliers or Corel. I won't go into where they came about, but by their own logic, one of them who claims to be (I said earlier appeared to be) an attorney would be further infringing on my copyright by using my own digital manipulation of Bassano's Jubilee photgraphs of Victoria in his borderline-slanderous cartoons lampooning me. (By the way, if you're lurking, nice artwork, though your writing needs to be tightened up.)

4. They're getting increasingly desperate, trying to intimidate me with insults and physical threats. I'm not falling for it. I'm told over and over that "no one" reads my strip, but with 7,000 views a month (between subscribers and views at Comics Sherpa -- thank you to the people who have been doing publicity for me the last few weeks, it has helped A LOT) it's safe to say that more people are now reading me than the 4,000 users they claim to have. Or does "no one" read their site, too?

5. Even with the Cease and Desist letters on their way, I'm still willing to settle this, and not for money as some have suggested. All I want is to make sure that this kind of stuff doesn't happen again. I can do that through infringement proceedings, the DMCA, and the court, or it can be handled through out of court negotiation. Let them comply with the C&D and then make a counter proposal on how they plan to end this abuse by their users, and the incitement and inducement to it by the site owners, not only of my writings but all those similarly situated. If it can be done to my satisfaction without deleting the entire forum, fine, but I'm not going to stand and see others profit off of my material without my permission, and I'm not going to rest without proper safeguards in place to prevent it in the future.

I'm probably going to slip underground (pardon the pun) on this matter for a little while, unless they approach me to settle. There's no need for daily updates for most of the next week or so, until I start getting back the return receipts and responses from him, his hosting service, and his coward-screen company. Until then, rest assured that I'm loving every minute of the fight, and am eager for the next round.

Happy holidays to one and all.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kee p up the good fight
I look forward to the next posting on this matter after your hiatus.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. So basically you want to censor them?
Edited on Mon Dec-25-06 06:38 PM by EdwardM
"and the removal of that forum "

Comeon, its just criticism of your comics. It's no big deal. Don't you have bigger problems? You have no real case, because you are gonna have to show damages, and there obviously is none.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Not at all.
That forum is nothing more than a forum for copyright infringement, which is why I wanted it removed. If they can assure me that they will safeguard against infringement while keeping it there, I'll settle for that.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 06:32 PM
Original message
No, you're just looking for a reason to have them removed.
Edited on Mon Dec-25-06 06:37 PM by EdwardM
I currently posting there, and I gotta say, those guys are complete dumbasses. But do I think they are purposely stealing your material? No, they are just mocking it, and in my opinion, they aren't doing anything that doesn't fall under fair use. It is obvious that that they are discussing your stuff from a discussion forum setting, and they are not purposely stealing it. What they are doing falls ever bit as much under fair use as when Jon Stewart insults news organizations.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wrong.
First off, the amount of material copied comes into play. Wholesale duplication is not covered under fair use. If they wanted to quote small excerpts (as is the rule here at DU) they'd be safe.

Second, my comic strips were not quoted in a discussion setting. They were deliberately posted by one user solely to annoy me. "This sucks" after each does not qualify as critical debate, either, under fair use laws.

Third, they are a commercial entity, and the wholesale duplication of copyrighted material without permission for commercial uses is illegal. It is not fair use. There is no scholarship, research, or education in the duplication of my work. There is no transformative value or parody in the wholesale duplication. The works are recreated in their entirety, so they fail the "amount and sustainability" test.

As for effect on the market, let me put it to you this way: would I not have a right to order my works taken off a Neo-Nazi website? By consenting to the duplication of my work by a particular site (other than small amounts for commentary's sake, as has happened on blogs and in print in the past) I would appear to be agreeing to and concurring in the views expressed on that site. I do agree with and concur with most of the views expressed on Democratic Underground, so I repost some of my writing here. I also participate in discussions and debates here for that reason. I DON'T concur with about 95% of the original material on that website, and choose not to have my work (either textual or graphic) associated with it. Part of copyright means I have the right to control the distribution of and use of my work. What goes on there does not constitute fair use in many cases. The few that do (as in quotes of small chunks from me, links to my material, and parodies of me) are not under attack by me.

As for my demand to shut down that entire forum, I insisted on that as a safeguard against further infringement, since that forum is dedicated almost entirely to infringing and potentially infringing acts. I was within my rights to insist upon its removal as part of settling. If they can devise a way to guard against infringement without shutting down the forum, and we can agree upon it, I'll settle for that, but they don't seem interested in a middle ground. They want to pretend nothing ever happened and go on reproducing entire works without permission, and sooner or later another of mine will be up there. I can't take that chance.

As for why I don't go up there, I can't. I do not want myself or my works associated with that site, and by joining and posting there, I would be tacitly consenting to some of my writings being there by my participation. I do not want that. I do not want ANYTHING of mine there if I can help it, and in several cases I can.

I have to defend my copyrights. Failure to do so creates a tacit license, and dilutes the effectiveness of the copyright.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Fine, go ahead and sue them.
Edited on Mon Dec-25-06 07:24 PM by EdwardM
You are fighting an uphill battle, because you will have to show damages which will be impossible. You will spend a ton of money on legal fees, if you can even find out the person who posted it, which will be another huge uphill battle. I didn't realise that someone posted all your comics on one page. You might be able to get that taken off, but not the entire forum. First of all, you don't hold the copyright to Democratic Underground's post so you can't sue for them. Democratic Underground would have to do it, because they hold the rights to this material. All you could sue is for your comics that were not posted on this site. But is it really worth spending thousands of dollars just to do that? Comeon, you need a stronger backbone, and you need to live with a little criticism. They aren't going away, and thank god copyright laws haven't chipped away too much at the 1st amendment yet. Just know that I will be rooting for their side in this battle, and they probably will win or you will win a very small thing after spending thousands on fees. In these battles, I always root on the side of free speech.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You have some serious misconceptions about copyright law.
First off, you don't need to prove damages. There are statutory damages provided for under copyright law BECAUSE it can be so hard to prove damages. You can also recoup legal fees. At least four of the infringements (three reproductions of my strip and one reproduction of an essay) were done precisely because I took steps to enforce other copyrights, so those four would count right away as willful infringement, instantly raising the statutory damages from $30,000.00 to $150,000.00.

I have not transferred any copyrights to Democratic Underground, or any other site. I grant reproduction permission for this site by posting it here.

I'm not suing for the removal of the forum, I demanded it as a term for settling early on as an appropriate safeguard against future infringement, in lieu of seeking monetary damages.

I'm not trying to stifle free speech. I'm not stopping them from saying anything, nor seeking to. I'm not trying to stifle criticism of me or my work, only insisting that it be done under the law, without full reproduction of the work in question. Hell, I've gotten criticism from Franklin Harris from The Decatur Daily and Heidi MacDonald of (among other things) Comics Buyer's Guide which were less than stellar. Ray Tate of Silver Bullet Comics once ripped me a new one and I not only didn't sue over it, I revelled in it and have discussed the issue and his points at length. I'm not out against criticism, I'm against full duplication of material without permission.

If someone on Free Republic, or that other site, or any other place in the world wants to criticize what I say, they're welcome to do so. What's going on there is not criticism, it's duplication in full which is infringement. They can excerpt, link, and quote (within reason) all they want for debate and criticism. But let them do it the way we do it here at DU: within the letter of the law.

Again, I may never see a penny out of this. I don't care. I'm not after the money. I want them to be held to the same standards as everyone else, and stay within the law. I offered to settle once and they refused. I'll settle now if they can put safeguards in place that I'm pleased with. I'm not trying to shut anyone down. I'm not trying to bankrupt anyone. But if I have to in order to defend my rights under the law, I will do so. They would have no one but themselves to blame.

I have a feeling you and I are going to keep going around in circles. There are plenty of good copyright primers out there, be sure to read them.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Didn't you read what I posted.
I said you probably got a case against the guy who posted all the comics. But it would be worthless going after him, because you would spend thousands in legal fees just to get peanuts, if you can even find out who he is. And our copyright laws are full of shit anyway. The fact that you can sue someone for hundreds of thousands of dollars for posting a comic on a website or pirating a game is beyond fucked up. But just because those laws are there, doesn't mean you should use them. My feeling is that you are trying to abuse copyright laws to stop dissent, and thats the same tactics Scientology uses. Is it legal? Maybe, but it certainly isn't right. Want to sue? Go ahead I don't care, but you will just cost yourself a ton of money and work agaisnt freedom of speech, but I aint stoppin you.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Whether you get "peanuts" or even nothing at all is irrelevant.
If you don't defend your copyrights, it weakens your case in the future. I have to defend them, and am doing so.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Very true, copyrights and trademarks. Just ask Xerox, Sony, Kodak,
and all the other companies that spend thousands defending their trademarks.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. a
Edited on Mon Dec-25-06 06:32 PM by EdwardM
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jumpoffdaplanet Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Didn't read it that way at all.

People like that deserve to be hammered with the law in anyway possible.

Why would you be so quick to defend slime?

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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I'm not defending anything.
I just don't like copyright lawsuits like this, that seem to be used to supress speech.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Please, for the love of God above...
TELL ME just HOW am I preventing anyone's free speech by preventing them from reproducing MY speech? Or my works?

People can express their opinion all they want, and I won't stop them. People can criticize my work, and I won't stop them. But they can't REPRODUCE my work without permission.

I've stated before, and will continue to state, that my intention has not been to shut down that website. I don't intend to keep anyone from expressing themselves. I DO intend to stop them from using my writing and my cartoons, as anyone should have the right to do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. double post
Edited on Tue Dec-26-06 12:27 AM by EdwardM
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Excuse me, but you most certainly ARE defending them. And,
how is enforcing Copyright Laws suppression of Free Speech? Obviously, you don't understand Copyright Law OR the concept of Free Speech.

The poster at that other site broke the law. The site itself became complicit when they refused to remove the posting.

The theft of intellectual property is theft, period. They are criminals. Period.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes copyright laws are exploited all the time to supress speech.
Scientology is famous for it. Is it legal to do it? Maybe. Is it something I consider right? hell no. Yes I understand copyright laws, and I understand they are full of crap.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Name one instance in which Copyright Law has been used
to suppress Free Speech in the US. Yes, it originated as a means to suppress Free Speech, but those laws are far different than the copyright laws of today.

As I said, you obviously DON'T understand Copyright Law. It's sole intent is to protect intellectual property. Which means that the owner of the copyright is "free" to decide how his "speech" or other intellectual property is used. In the US, he/she can even sell the rights to someone else, if he/she so wishes.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I told you Scientology has done it.
Edited on Tue Dec-26-06 01:54 AM by EdwardM
In particular, to suppress dissent about their "fair game" policy. They tried to censor google claiming copyright violations.

http://www.microcontentnews.com/articles/googlechurch.htm
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Perhaps you should read the update.
"Why did Google take the Xenu.net homepage out in the first place, if it didn't violate copyright? The answer is simple: the Scientologists tossed in a complaint filled with pages of paperwork. In order to get "Safe Harbour" protection from the DMCA (clearing Google of any copyright liability), Google just took the whole site down until it could sort it all out.

But here's the thing: the Scientology complaint for the homepage wasn't even over a copyright violation!"

http://microcontentnews.com/articles/googleupdate.htm

Nice try. Care to try again?
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I know google won in the end
Edited on Tue Dec-26-06 02:30 AM by EdwardM
But Scientology exploited copyright laws to suppress free speech. Sure it failed but they tried. But there have been times when there scare tactic worked, and Ill get back to you after I'm done researching. Forcing them to take it offline while they look it over by sending threatening letters was exploiting copyright laws IMO, but we can disagree on that.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. But my point is that they didn't exploit Copyright Law, It was
pure legal manuevering using sheer volumes of paperwork.

In Pab's case, he has copyrighted material that he is selling. Much of it is on his website that has advertisers that pay him. He may occasionally post some of his work in forums of his choosing as advertisement for his website.

That other site has advertisers, also. Everytime someone reads his work on that other site, they get paid by their advertisers instead of reading it on his site so Pab's advertisers pay him. They are literally stealing advertising dollars from him.

That's why DU's rules specifically state to post only short excerpts and always link back to the site where the copyrighted material is located. Copyright owners don't mind that, because they get paid by their advertisers everytime someone clicks the link. It's basically free advertising for them!

If they want to make fun of Pab and his work, that's thir right. But they can just post a link to his site, not copy/paste his work.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Even if I'm not selling it
it doesn't negate my right to decide how it is distributed. Unless I mark "public domain" (as I did one song I wrote a while back and posted here) or "may be redistributed" (as with the piece I co-authored on "Hurricane Katrina: The Motion Picture," I get to control where it goes.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. Edward, please tell me if "free speech" encompasses the image
at img179.imageshack.us/img179/7038/namblatrailercx0.gif

Which is one of that site's responses to my Cease and Desist letters.

(Hopefully it will be gone before you can read this. If it is, it's been preserved just in case.)
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I can't get the image to work?
You got another link?
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. No.
I printed a copy of it as used in the thread, and did save it, but am not reposting it because of its libelous nature.
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EdwardM Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. OK.
I don't know if it's libelous or not, but It appears from the title to be parody. Is it a photoshopped picture of you at a NAMBLA convention or something. I'm guessing that is what it is, by the thread title. Remember the standard set from Hustler V. Falwell. If something is an obvious parody, and no reasonable person could assume its true, then it isn't libel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine_v._Falwell

The supreme court determined that this ad in Hustler wasn't Libel which said Jerry falwell had sex with his mom, because it is obvious parody. And I'm glad the Supreme court ruled that way, or SNL would get sued every week.



I don't know what the picture said because you won't tell me, but if it something that is obviously obsurd like the Falwell ad, then it won't be considered Libel.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. There are other parodies there.
I haven't targetted them. The guy's Photoshop skills are pretty good, but his writing could be tightened up a bit.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. wow...I'm sorry to see...
you have to argue your case here as well. Not surprised though....law is only relevant to them, when it's on their side. And I am sick to death of those spouting hatred, violence, bigotry, defamation, characterization, and blatant false-hoods hiding behind 'free-speech'.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Free speech DOES cover hatred, violence, and the rest.
I think it should be expressed, and welcomed in the debate. People have a right to say what they want. They don't have the right to use other people's work to do it.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Unfortunately ....
not for all of us. Some may say whatever they want...while others..'whistle-blowers', personalities, investigative journalists, etc., etc., do not have that luxury...they pay dearly for their 'right to say what they want'. Hiding behind the mantra of Free Speech, lives are ruined and dissent is stifled.
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judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-25-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Good luck and get them
getting incorporated does not protect someone from past wrong doing. The corp is 'born' on the day its created.

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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. Damn. Talk about an internet fight gone too far.
I understand your position and support it but part of me is uncomfortable with the direction this fight has gone. Whether I'm comfortable with it or not however, it is happening and, as such, I support your efforts. This is as close as an internet fight comes to being a fight to the death. They have clearly identified themselves as our enemy as well as yours and, as such, you must destroy them if you are able. Stay on the offense, show them no mercy, and don't quit until they're destroyed. Good luck.
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. Wow, I do hope that you get these people..
That forum is so full of slime. How anyone can take someone's work, reproduce it on there and mock it is beyond me. I don't even know why they are so obssessed over DU.

Blue
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Would it help
If we asked Skinner if we could establish a legal defense fund here to cover some legal fee's?

There have been several donation threads here lately.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. NO.
I'm not doing this for money. I do not want fundraising here on DU for this matter.

This is not a DU matter, this is my matter. I will see it through.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. OK then
Was just trying to offer assistance.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-26-06 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. Question:
Why is it permissable to mention freak repubelick here, and not "that other place". Just asking.
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