Just saw "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

[valerief]

http://imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

I recommend it. Wow. What I didn't know about those EVs!

Here's the activist site.

http://www.pluginamerica.com/

Oh, well, they're turning up the heat slowly and we're the frogs in the pot. Who are they? The idiots that own everything. Like oil.

Edited to add:
The movie is worth it just to see the fabulous 90-year-old Phyllis Diller. Well, the electric car story is more compelling, but Phyllis does look fabulash!

[Ron Green]

1. I recommend this post AND the movie. Everyone ought to see it.

[Dr.Phool]

2. I bought it a few weeks ago.

Great movie. Perpetrators guilty as charged!

[madokie]

4. I was so pissed when I watched it.

The car company's and the oil company's are in collusion. My neighbor, friend has an EV he built, converted himself that he drives all the time.

[valerief]

5. Lucky friend. I figure the folks who control the automakers are the

same ones who control the oil. And they control the White House and Congress. Well, maybe Congress will change come January. Maybe the Zero Emissions Act can be revived nationwide. With all the crazy weather patterns the US has experienced, maybe people will actually believe in global warming and ill effects of automobile CO2 emissions.

[acmejack]

3. Great video.

People do need to see this. Here's the PBS NOW bit on it before it was released. Old but good.

snip>
This week, NOW talks to director Chris Paine about his upcoming documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" The film looks at the hopeful birth and untimely death of the electric car, an environmentally-friendly, cost-saving salvation to some, but a profit barrier to others.

In a film that has all the elements of a murder mystery, Paine points the finger at car companies, the oil industry, bad ad campaigns, consumer wariness, and a lack of commitment from the U.S. government.

" is about why the only kind of cars that we can drive run on oil. And for a while there was a terrific alternative, a pure electric car," Paine said.

In 1996, General Motors (G.M.) launched the first modern-day commercially available electric car, the EV1. The car required no fuel and could be plugged in for recharging at home and at a number of so-called battery parks.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/index.html

[Gwerlain]

6. The problem with electric cars...

is the batteries. We're nearly there, but not yet. If the price of gas keeps going up, electric cars will become economically superior to gas cars; and even if it doesn't, battery technology is improving, and electric cars should be feasible soon for the average consumer. But they're not there yet. Conspiracy theories are not helpful.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w13rd0]

8. Nonsense...

...most people drive less than 120 miles a day, and the battery technology is more than adequate to support that now. I would be a perfect example of an electric car consumer. I make 2 trips a week of 100 miles, other than that, I drive 20 miles a day at the most.

[silverojo]

21. Just one caveat

A great deal of the American Southwest is desert terrain. The desert devours regular car batteries (as well as any other kind of battery). Therefore, electric cars simply can't run as long here as they can elsewhere, plus cities in that region are more sprawling than cities in the East. In other words, a car that can run 120 miles per day in a normal city situation would probably run about 30-40 here. (I'm not exaggerating--car batteries need to be replaced about every 3 years out here.)

Please don't get me wrong--I love the idea of environmentally-friendly cars! I'm just saying, for an all-electric car to be feasible for ordinary use, engineers would have to find a way for their power sources to survive intense desert heat. Because there are huge chunks of the American population living in places like Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc.

[Ready4Change]

25. One size doesn't fit all.

Not everyone can get by driving a Civic. Not everyone needs a full size pickup truck on a daily basis. Many are fine with a light motorcycle. Many city dwellers find car ownership far more of a hassle than it is worth, and thus have no car at all.

I agree, current EV's may not be suitable for many midwesterners, or desert climes. (Batteries prefer being kept cool.)

But there are a HUGE number of multi-car families who could make EXCELLENT use of one or more EVs. If a company can market an EV at a price that makes sense for such people, I'll cheer them every single step of the way.

[Bigmack]

31. But think of all the solar....

energy going to waste that could power cars like crazy down in the desert. I have a friend with a solar house and I could just stand there and watch the meter run backwards all day! If he could charge his car from his house.....

We're snowbirds, so we don't have any battery problems with our Prius because it doesn't bake in the summer. Does anybody know if the Prius batteries survive the heat?

How about this? Most of the people I know in the desert park their cars in semi-cooled garages. Swamp coolers keep them down to about 85 in the summer. Would that be cool enough?

[rman]

32. Right. So, batteries are not yet on par with gasoline tanks

when it comes to energy storage capacity. As of yet batteries are only viable if your energy requirements are low - as in: driving relatively short distances.
Regardless of any conspiracies.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

39. Agree, batteries don't compare to gas tanks

They don't hold as much in terms of driving miles.

They don't fill up as fast.

There are not as many places to get them filled.

If gas stations could stock and swap charged batteries, something like propane tanks for the grill, then battery tech might get useful faster. But for now, if you have an electric car, it's only useful for short commuting, you need another vehicle to take on a trip.

[Gwerlain]

47. Again, provide a source for batteries that will cost less than...

just buying a new car.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Please see the movie before complaining about 'conspiracy

theories'.

For one, 'batteries' is not the culprit. The technology is here, now, and is still improving and will only get better.

And 'conspiracy theory' is absolutely correct, in that it is a theory about a conspiracy. Actually, several conspiracies, some of them actually working against each other. There are a lot of players in the game including the auto companies, big oil, public utilities, politicians and many others.

Please, see the film. It will be a revelation.

[valerief]

33. Ha! Good comeback! nt

[trekbiker]

41. the battery technology is here?? what technology?

it certainly isnt lead acid or Nimh. Lithium is promising, especially with advances in nanotech but its not "here" yet at the practical level of speed and range, ease of recharging and above all cost that would be required to establish an electric car as a true competitor with gas and hybrid technology. The battery technology will arrive in a few years at a competitive price point but when it does hybrid technology will still beat out pure electric cars. All electric cars will be short range, around town cars for a long time to come and as such will not hold a large percentage of the market. The answer lies in hybrid.

[FogerRox]

43. Li-Poly batteries are a step beyond Nickel-Cadnium

And Nickel metal hydride.

Li-poly: 60% of the space, amperage flow is proly 20% more...good for climing hills and accelerating out onto the hiway. Recharging li-poly is much faster than NMH, as well as maintenence woes of Ni-cad & NMH. NMH : you cannot store NMH batts uncharged, they get killed. Li-poly dont require 100% charging to prolong battery life, Ni-cad & NMH do.

Li-poly downside, you need a specific charger for your battery. No Exceptions.

[Solon]

10. The conspiracy doen't need much help...

Its actually somewhat related to what happened to most light rail and electric train systems in most cities in the United States. A front company, called National City Lines, was run by GM, Firestone tires, and Standard Oil, they bought out as many light rail companies as they could, tore up, or ignored, the tracks in cities, and ran bus lines instead. The buses were made by GM, gas from Standard Oil, and tires by Firestone, a win win, for them.

This is actual historical fact, hell, these companies didn't even really hide it, especially after it was exposed, it wasn't illegal, just good business. They also supported, and lobbied, for an interstate highway system, the two go hand in hand.

What isn't known as well is how they killed electric vehicles. I don't know if you know this, but, just like standard internal combustion engines, electric engines and vehicles, are almost as old. Many cities in the United States actually ONLY allowed electric delivery trucks in many downtown areas. This was one of those areas were electric vehicles were suited, they delivered goods, usually from trains, to businesses in the downtown area, usually they had runs from anywhere from 10 miles to almost 30 miles, well within the range needed from electric vehicles at the time. They didn't pollute, therefore didn't smell or make a lot of noise, an important consideration in high population areas.

The companies that manufactured these vehicles were doing well, at first, however, they were "out-competed" mostly using not so ethical business practices by the Big 3. The thing to remember is this, electric vehicles, for a time, held their own against internal combustion engines powered vehicles in certain niches. They STILL could, but its hard to start any type of startup based on transportation, its damned near impossible, domestically, to do that. Fossil fuel powered vehicles are pretty good at long distance traveling, for any purpose, but this doesn't mean that electric vehicles aren't economical for short distance traveling. Maybe not as PERSONAL transportation, but for business and commercial short distance hauling, they are economical.

[MountainLaurel]

13. Right on.

:applause:

[Hardpan]

16. Amen to that! eom

[hlthe2b]

12. Bullshit.... Gwerlain, you need to do your homework...

Start by actually watching this documentary before commenting on it...:eyes:

[Tommy_J]

14. Aren't we being a little tough on Gwerlain?

I've driven GM Impacts, mentored a college Formula Electric race team, and conducted advanced battery research. Personally I loved driving the Impact. Torquey from a stop and amazingly quite.

But lets be honest. The Impact wasn't quite ready for prime time. It would be like a Honda Insight with a 1.2 gallon gas tank. Seriously, what percent on the American populous would pay a premium for that? Now I drive a Prius which is superior in virtually every respect.

The prospect of widespread commercialization of lithium ion batteries is exciting however. Their excellent energy density could allow electric cars to compete nicely.

[hlthe2b]

19. No... it only appears that you both need to do some reading...

Congrats on your prius. It is not indicative of where we are (or even where we WERE with batteries). See the documentary or do your reading.

[Tommy_J]

23. I'll plan to see the documentary

But as a former scientist who has lead research on the electrochemistry of rapid charging processes, I wonder what it is you think think I should read.

[U4ikLefty]

29. Perhaps you should start with the history of the EV1.

I find it funny that you went from the GM Insight (1990) to the Prius (present day) without even mentioning the EV1. The EV1 is the real story of how the industry plans to handle the "electric car"...not the Insight.

Also, if you are indeed on the cutting edge of battery technology, then you should know that many strides have been made since 1990.

[Tommy_J]

35. The EV1 is essentially a GM Impact

The Insight is a Honda hybrid comparable in size to the Impact. It was the first mass produced hybrid. Both are rather small two seaters. Honda is ceasing production of the Insight this year due to low sales.

I mentioned both Impact and Insight because these vehicles shared shortcomings of being too small and a little slow for the US market.

Since the Insight gets around 60 mpg, one could compare an Impact to an Insight that was limited to carrying only 1.2 gallons of gas - then they would have similar range. The Impact would still cost more to manufacture.

[trekbiker]

42. I'm with you Tommy_J... Lithium ion and

progress in nanotech especially in regard to rapid recharging and energy densities is very interesting. This technology combined with supercaps and "true" regenerative braking (as opposed to what we have now in your Prius) could make an all-electric vehicle commercially viable. I still think hybrid will out compete it since it would also benefit from the same advances in technology AND still have the advantage of the gas or diesel engine. But, 200 mpg hybrids may soon be a reality and would be capable of long distances and not be hobbled by the recharging station problem. There is also the problem of utility infrastructure. As a utility power engineer for over 20 years I can tell you the infrastructure problems are very real and could be a limiting factor for the energies required to rapid charge all-electric vehicles on a mass scale. Contrast that to gas-electric hybrids being charged at off peak hours on the utility distribution systems. That would be do-able on a mass scale with todays infrastructure.

[Gwerlain]

48. And BTW, sorry to pop your bubble but I know a former owner...

of a Saturn EV. He was NOT pleased when the batteries stopped working.

Do my research indeed. Says the newb to the EE. Hello?

[Gwerlain]

46. OK, find me a source for batteries. YOU do YOUR research...

before you call bullshit.

[Hardpan]

17. Gas companiesare making a killing in profits. What conspiracy ?

[LSK]

38. what Conspiracy theories??? Do you see any GM EV1s on the road??

[Gwerlain]

45. I dunno, you got any batteries for 'em?

[LSK]

50. you said there was some conspiracy

What exactly are we tinfoilers proposing exactly???

Heres your battery:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/468

[nam78_two]

52. And then the gentle chirping of crickets ensued.nt

[Gwerlain]

53. No, actually if you'd READ what I said, I said that...

conspiracy theories aren't helpful, but improved battery technology is.

[LSK]

54. once again, what is the conspiracy theory???

If conspiracy theories are not helpful, then tell us who is telling one and what is it?

[Gwerlain]

55. Do you REALLY need links to posts on this thread? n/t

[hlthe2b]

11. It was the story of the electric streetcar (in the xtras) that got me!

Damn, we were strung along and every damned major city is the worst for it.

I just wanted to spit nails after watching this...


And yes, Phyllis Diller did look amazing... I had to admit I didn't know she was still with us!

[Hardpan]

15. Bingo!! Got to keep burning that gasoline!!

[IDemo]

18. But, but, they're not dead yet!

Obvio 828E from Brazil
http://www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/Obvio%20!%20828.jpg

Tango


Tesla

[silverojo]

22. Um...yeah.

These would be *great* for people with families, or handicapped people who can't curl up like boiled shrimp. :eyes:

Let's stay within the realm of practicality, shall we?

[IDemo]

24. They're "within the realm of practicality", just not for your family of four

but they aren't intended to be. Not everyone is looking for transportation for a family of four, or for a vehicle that can handle all day drives without a recharge. The Obvio is roomier for two than it appears from the outside. I'd take one of these in a minute for my short daily commute, but I'm already bicycling it.

The real impractical design feature of all three of the above cars is the zero-to-60 in 4.5 seconds or less. Someone has recently built a claimed 640 hp electric Mini Cooper with the same performance claim. If the companies producing these machines would drop the outrageous performance in exchange for greater range and more comfort, you're correct, they would have more widespread appeal. But they are keeping EV's in the public eye and continuing to move the technology forward in the meantime.

[Ready4Change]

26. If I could buy a Tesla right now, I would.

I drive a 2 seat convertible sports car. My daily commute is around 50 miles. I drive ranges that would challenge the Tesla about once a month. But then, I and my wife own two cars, and we could use our second for longer trips. As a result, we could drop our vehicular fossil fuel usage in half with a Tesla. (I drive a lot more than my wife.)

Much of our electric comes from a nuclear plant, so in my hands an EV would not be burning coal or NG, either.

So, for us, a Tesla could be very practical, should larger scale production bring down costs.

[IDemo]

27. Sweet looking car, but those 6,831 laptop batteries make me pause..

http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/0,71414-0.html

These are true showpieces, but I have to think a company that produced a vehicle with smaller more efficient motors, yielding real-world performance and longer range, would find great success in the market.

[pstans]

20. I saw it last week

It was very interesting. I think it was a slanted, but worth watching. My biggest question is why GM didn't let the people buy the cars after the lease if all they were going to do is junk the cars. Why not make some $ off of what they thought was a bad investment?

[valerief]

34. They wanted to destroy the evidence. Make it "disappear." The folks

who have the biggest investments in GM must also be heavily invested in oil, the real moneymaker.

[PADemD]

28. Did you rent the movie or see it in a theatre?

[ironflange]

30. That's a surprise!

I was under the impression that the Stonecutters scotched the electric car.

[Pierzin]

36. Thank You Valerief!! You are just awesome for the link!!!

The grief and anger I felt after watching that film cannot be put into words. All of you naysayers out there, we need to get real about the American landscape. American land use planning is not sustainable. We use far too much of the worlds resources, and we need to cut back. We need to become "more European", meaning, we need to get out of the practice of suburban sprawl and concentrate more of our land use planning towards the cities.
We have the technology to change. We have the roads in place. We just need recharge stations to replace gas stations. How long did it take this country to have the road network we have today? In the early days of the automobile, there were no state highways to speak of. Where are the leaders of yesteryear who are willing to grab the bull by the horns and demand that this country make massive changes to reduce our dependance on fossil fuels?
We need them now to lead us into the new era.

[LSK]

37. yes, it is a good movie and it was tragic to kill this cars

K&R

[mod mom]

40. Read Edwin Black's "Internal Combustion" link:

http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/

I was fortunate enough to recently have dinner with EB prior to a lecture he gave. He presents a great historical perspective and makes the case that it is in our national interest to move away from internal combustion engines.

[Blue_Tires]

44. ttt n/t

[wildbilln864]

49. kicked...

because I'm too late to recommend!

[nam78_two]

51. Good movie.nt