Anyone with a few brain cells still working after Xmas Dinner?

[Wiley50]

Hi Folks!
Hope everyone had an enjoyable holiday. I just got back from having Xmas dinner over at my ex's house with her two daughters and her grand-daughter. Ate too much of just about everything. We get along so much better now that we don't live together.

Look, I need some help. I'm having a little discussion over on another board. I posted a link to an essay Tom Hartmann posted over on Common Dreams in '04. Published on Friday, March 12, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class
by Thom Hartmann Somebody here posted it the other day.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm

So, I get the post that follows from a guy over there. My answer to him would be that the cost of everything has gone up since 1967, but I'm too stuffed to think very well right now.

Can anybody think of some other ways that this guy's thinking is wrong? I'd really appreciate some ideas to get my brain moving again. Thanks


"wiley must thnk we are stupid enough to believe what he tells us, but in fact it's the other way around!

The typical family today is doing a whole lot better than their grandparents were in 1967, the year the population first surpassed 200 million.

Mr. and Mrs. Median's annual income is 32% more than their mid-'60s counterparts, even when adjusted for inflation, and 13% more than those at the median in the economic boom year of 1985.

And thanks to ballooning real estate values, average household net worth has increased even faster.

The typical American household has a net worth of $465,970, up 83% from 1965, 60% from 1985 and 35% from 1995.

Throw in the low inflation of the past 20 years, a deregulated airline industry that's made travel much cheaper, plus technological progress that's provided the middle class with not only better cars and televisions, but every gadget from DVD players to iPods, all at lower and lower prices, and it's obvious that Mr. and Mrs. Median are living the life of Riley compared to their parents and grandparents. "

[NMDemDist2]

1. then how come the same amount of children are in Poverty as before

LBJ declared war on same?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x253077

[DainBramaged]

2. We never needed "stuff" like you mention in 1967, so it doesn't count

All we had was AM/FM radio, 4-track tape, and mostly black and white TV. If it wasn't for the marketing departments and product planners, we STILL wouldn't need any of it, hence, no need for income increases.

And I mean we wouldn't need any of it.

I have a phone in my pocket, computer I am typing this on to broadcast to around the world, and XM satellite radio next to me.

Yet I eat and sleep the same as I did 30 years ago, but it costs so much I have to be very careful. And I stopped eating meat too..

oh, I forgot. I could buy gas for 25 cents a gallon too.

And bottled water was for batteries in cars.


"nuff said.

Merry Christmas.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Well, in 1967, our balance of trade was in the black

the first year we imported more oil than we exported was, if memory serves, 1969. I would also ask for citations for those cost of living figures. Also, how easy is it to be able to afford to go to college now? As I recall, I went on scholarship the next year, with tuition waived, but had to pay fees which were, all in all, about $100 per semester. Jump ahead to the mid seventies, when I got an advanced degree, and fees AND tuition AND books were around $500-600 per semester.

[hfojvt]

4. the typical American household has a net worth of $465,000???

I find that very hard to believe. Is he using average or median net worth?
In 1968 I find this distribution
62,214 ** 4.2 ** 11.1 ** 17.5 ** 24.4 ** 42.8 ** 16.6
compared to this for 2001
109,297 ** 3.5 ** 8.7 ** 14.6 ** 23.0 ** 50.1 ** 22.4

so the bottom 20% share of national income has fallen from 4.2% to 3.5%, and the share of the next 20% has fallen from 11.1 to 8.7%

That may be a smaller share of a bigger pie, but I have always heard that the bottom 60% has lost 'real' income over the last 30 years. I need to check some figures, but that $465,000 number is a load of crap. My siblings are upper middle class and none of them has half that net worth, even if they did sell their ridiculously priced houses.

[DainBramaged]

6. I can't believe that. What percentage rents? And what about povery levels too?

[hfojvt]

14. they keep changing the measure

but poverty rate was 18.1% in 1960, fell to 8.8% in 1973 rose to 12.2% in 1982 fell (mostly under Clinton) to 9.2% in 2001 and rose to 12.7% in 2004.

[NMDemDist2]

8. exactly! remember if Warren Buffett walks into a room with 9 other people

the average net worth rises to a billion dollars

the math isn't right, but you get the idea

a few VERY wealthy families bring that average up even though the 'regular' people are struggling

[Infinite Hope]

5. We are better off, but here's the issue...

Yes, we are better off on face. We have more toys, more leisure time, etc.

The issue is that the standard of living has increased, which is why we're better off, but with that comes a cost of living increase. When looking at our standard of living relative to our cost of living, we're no better off than we were back than - and least within a "margin of error" of sorts.

[NMDemDist2]

11. actually we don't have more leisure time.

the american worker works more hours than any other industrialized county in the world

[ray of light]

7. 35% increase in tuition in 5 years--no corresponding wage or aid

increase.

also...dailykos...is it boomdad or bomdad or something like that? He's got good economic posts.

[Straight Shooter]

9. How many more Americans were insured, percentage-wise?

And how many more hours do we work now than our parents and grandparents did so we can live this so-called "life of Riley"?

What a crock. Everyone knows the American dream is dying. :freak:

[hfojvt]

10. link on the growth in household income

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States


You can see how flat it has been for the bottom 50%.
edit - well you could if it wasn't a red X

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. You can take issue with a number of points -

Real estate values are nonsense, unless you actually own your house, and at today's values how many actually do? What we have is real estate empowered debt. Personal debt is through the roof, and savings are through the basement floor. Medical costs and education costs are both at record high percentages of personal income. College grads start out with $60,000 debt, and if you can't afford college the trade skills jobs that were available in the 60s have all been shipped outside the country. There is a greater disparity of wealth between the rich and the middle class than there has ever been, even during the 'Gilded Age', and opportunities to move from one strata to another have only decreased.

There's a new theater opened up in the republican suburbia of north Raleigh. 14 screens, stadium seating, all bright and shiney and new. It was voted "Best Theater" recently. Its employees hate their management, their management is disconnected from the employees, and everybody is rude to the public.

Being bright and shiney does not make something the "best"; all the Ipods and laptops and 54" screens does not mean wealth. Just shiney toys that represent the flight of wealth from this country to countries that actually produce wealth.

[hfojvt]

13. link for wealth

http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss/oss2/papers/concentration.2001.10.pdf

as I read the table, only 27.8% of families have net wealth greater than $250,000, while 40.2% have net worth less than $50,000. That report only goes back to 1989. 14,7% have net worth less than $2,500.
That has probably gotten worse since 2001.

[NMDemDist2]

15. here's a brand new shiny article

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3029096