The denial within the US military is understandable...

[kentuck]

Most of the GIs in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq probably believe they are fighting for a "just" cause? Few probably even think of the lies that got us into this war? Their world is much more isolated. They believe what their superiors tell them. They do not question authority. Should they be held responible for those beliefs? They are only doing what they are told.

[JohnnyLib2]

1. One little discussed factor is the rate of promotion.

Apparently it's very high, perhaps historically so for higher grade officers. That's another subtle incentive for the system.....

[Heywood J]

2. Actually, I've seen so many articles on DU

from news pieces to Shadow's journal talking about how GIs hate being redeployed and overextended, how they hate being in Iraq, how they want out, how they feel lied to...

I doubt very many of them at this point think it's a "just cause". How many of those people are humans? They aren't all gun-toting foot soldiers who don't question anything. Prosecute the ones who commit atrocities and crimes. What else would anyone "hold them responsible" for?

[shadowknows69]

11. I agree with Kentuck too

A lot of guys I've met don't follow politics at all. These are 18 and 19 year old guys, when they're not getting shot at they're getting drunk, getting laid, etc. etc. Punching the clock. I met a few who didn't even know Rummy had quit/been fired and I was like: "Nobody issues you guys a memo or anything?" It is a bubble of isolation, not necessarily enforced but institutionalized. The troops' friends are almost exclusively guys from their own unit. A gang mentality even develops which I think is what sparks many of the sometimes very violent confrontations between troops of different units.
Many of them don't want to be at war but the mindset is: What else have I got, this is my existence and my job. I think many stay intentionally blind to the politics of it because they feel completely powerless to stop it.

[NNN0LHI]

3. Would the same hold true if it were Canadians who they were doing this to?

I mean if some president ordered our soldiers to invade and occupy Canada after not attacking or threatening us would the words "just cause" be enough for them to go up there and kill hundreds of thousands of Canadian men, women and children without checking any further?

:scared:

Don

[Heywood J]

7. I think that you have to look at it now versus 2003.

In 2003, there were far more people pumped with false info (and not yet knowing it to be false), who believed the "Iraq threat" crap, who believed an authority figure telling them they were at risk, etc. who were jazzed about enlisting and did so, believing it to be a "just cause" at the time.

I think there are just about no recruits now who believe it to be a "just cause". The only ones who still believe that aren't about to enlist.

Will I hold someone responsible for believing what they were told when it was repeated ad nauseum by the media, by friends and family, by those in authority, etc? No - only if they committed crimes themselves. The people to be held responsible in that situation are those who sent them into battle, who falsified the evidence, and who ordered atrocities.

[genie_weenie]

4. It's not denial it's fear.

Fear of the machinery of Government being brought to bear upon him. And also resignation. Acceptance of your lot in life.

It's not like masses of Americans are refusing to celebrate Christmas or have stopped paying taxes or stopped watching Survior or American Idol or have camped outside DC for days and months demanding the war end.

Fear and resignation are powerful.

After all an endless stream of authority figures have instilled and ensured that the individual soldier knows he is powerless. Alone he can be destroyed or ignored.

Fear of being court-martialed and going to prison.
Fear of being called a coward or a traitor.
Fear of a dishonorable discharge, which will ensure he remains poor and can't use any benefits.
Fear of being ridiculed back home.
Fear of reprisals from others in the military.
Fear of being labeled as un-American or anti-American.
Fear of being called an anti-war pussy by some washed-up, has-been, pompous ass.

[atreides1]

5. They are only doing what they are told.

So did the troops at Abu Ghraib, they believed that what they were doing was the "right thing for a just cause". I guess the Marines at Hadithta should be released and given a slap on the shoulder because I'm sure they believe that they were doing the right thing in accordance with their orders!

It's not so much a concept of denial as it is the fact that the US military along with a majority of the American population refuses to accept the fact that it is just as capable of committing atrocities and then trying to cover their respective asses by saying "we were following orders" or
it was for a "just cause".

What are their beliefs? The German military had their beliefs, and yet it took many decades to even
conceive of forgiveness and we still occupy Germany, the same can be said of Japan.

As for questioning authority, the ultimate authority lies in the Constitution of the United States of America. All military personnel swear allegiance to that document, that is their authority. Any violation of that document by the military command structure or the civilian government is just cause for the questioning of authority.

Just the opinion of someone who's becoming an old soldier.

[Monkeyman]

6. The Soldiers and Marines are starting to fight back Sir No Sir

This started in Vietnam now over 1000 have said NO MORE

[shadowknows69]

14. and that's awesome

We need to get that number in the 10's of thousands. Keep up the incredible work Monkeyman.

[tabasco]

8. How do you know what most of the soldiers think?

The ones I know think Iraq and the Bush admin are giant useless clusterfucks.

[kentuck]

9. You are correct..

We can only judge from what we hear - from those speaking up for the war and those speaking against...I haven't heard too many speaking against it - but that is to be expected, I suppose?

[atreides1]

10. Here's my answer to "They are doing what they are told"

"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligation of obedience...Thereforehave the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occuring.":The Nuremberg Tribunal 1945-1946

[shadowknows69]

12. I do make a distinction

at least as far as this war is concerned between a career soldier that found himself caught up in this conflict and has no recourse but to go or go AWOL. I'm finding it hard to have much respect for some of these guys who are joining now, and there's seems to be a lot of them fresh out of basic, for some 40K bonus but they essentially know its blood money. That they're going to be expected to go and kill for it. No better than mercs in my opinion.

[Imagevision]

13. The US. is fighting for the oil and a permanent presence in the middle-east - end of story- how many

die tomorrow? -- apparently it's irrelevant.

[sniffa]

15. it is understandabLe

they got to do what they got to do to survive.

i'm sure if some of them we're abLe to post here on DU from there, they'd be just as much in deniaL, and most LikeLy trying to get us to come around to their point of view regardLess of how "informed" they are.

[shadowknows69]

16. For the ones that don't believe in the "cause"

but feel stuck I think they NEED to believe in the cause. Could you handle the fact you were killing men, women and children for lies and oil?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. Well, my friends that have been to Iraq are not in denial about the situation.

The situation fucking blows. They have varying viewpoints on exactly how we should handle it, but none think that we're accomplishing any good.

BTW, DU is a blocked site for soldiers in Iraq, so I don't know how one of them can be posting from within the Green Zone. The US military blocks access to some sites. Very strange that one of them can get through.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Kentuk they don't have a choice

a realistic choice. They go and do what they are told... but they understand exactly what is going on

the only way it could stop, and it would have a high probabilty of failure, is a whole sale mutiny in the armed forces.

So no, they don't believe in the shit they are told. They are there for each other

And until you serve you will never get it... not a slam on you... this is a general comment

[aikoaiko]

19. While many soldiers and marines on the ground lean right, they fight to

to save their buddies lives even when if they doubt the stated legal, political,and strategic reasons from our leaders. To refuse to go, to duck out, to retreat is to fail your friends in arms.

At least, that is what some of my friends who have served tell me.