With all respect to Gerald Ford: Remember, he pardoned Nixon.

[edbermac]

May he rest in peace, but sorry I can't let that pardon slide.

[mykpart]

1. Thank you and AMEN to that!

[stansnark]

50. i second that

[Redstone]

2. It's done, and he's dead. What does it matter if you can forgive it or not?

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

14. Some people have to put themselves in the middle of any big event.

:rolleyes:

[Redstone]

19. Yep. Go here; I bet you'll enjoy it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2982624

Redstone

[LibraLiz1973]

22. This is true

[thingfisher]

64. I think the point is

that we need to remember our history dispite the tendency of the media to dwell on Ford's legacy as he who helpe hesl the nation! That is much to convenient. We need to keep in mind that what Ford's deed did was conceal a vast array of criminal behavior that went far beyond Watergate. But, who cares?

[goddess40]

77. it matter's only because they are setting and example for the Dem's

They being the MSM and the republican's. They are working the "healing" angle of the pardon and ignoring the fact that it was purely good old boy politics that lead to the pardon. Now they want the Dem's to pardon (really ignore) the heinous crimes committed by this administration in the same spirit of healing - I say bullshit. Do a real investigation and let that determine what happens, it's called doing what right. Justice is all I ask for, it won't bring back the dead or healed the injured but it is all we can do.

[Bluebear]

3. Oh, I'll let him come down to room temperature before I decimate him.

For now, RIP. Color me naive, I never had the feeling that he meant us harm.

[hlthe2b]

6. Me either.... I truly believe Ford was honorable....

One of the last, it seems..

RIP, sir. You did what you thought was right for the country and it cost you personally, a great deal. Be at peace.

[RoyGBiv]

4. I could let the pardon slide ...

It meant little.

It's his association with Cheney, et al that bugs me.

As noted elsewhere by someone else, he's the last Republican to hold the Presidency that didn't scare the shit out of me, but he helped lift to power a lot of people that are currently doing a fine job making me leave loads in my pants every time I think of the position they hold.

[hlthe2b]

15. I met Cheney (interviewed him, in fact) in early 90s in WY

in the course of my work. I can honestly tell you that he did not give me the vibe then that I get now--just watching him on tv. Before in person, he just seemed like an arrogant, pompous asshole--nothing unique there. Now, I see a tiny blurb of him or photo and I get an overwhelming sense of evil, no exaggeration at all.

Others have said that the Cheney of today is NOT the Cheney they knew long ago, so just maybe?

[RoyGBiv]

17. Maybe he hid it well ...

Greater readers of character than Ford failed to judge the character of a lot of people that hold positions of power today and use that power in what I consider evil ways.

I started to add I don't really blame him for it. It's just something with which I associate him -- that whole era, in fact. I in fact think more of that than I do the Nixon pardon when Ford's name is mentioned. Just a thing ...

In any case, I wish him safe journey and have regretted his loss as a voice of something approaching reason for some time. Our real statesmen are leaving us, and these bastards we have left, I fear, will find it easier to eat us alive as they do.

[jaysunb]

16. Cheney wasn't completely formed by then...

n/t

[LibraLiz1973]

23. that was so early in Cheneys career. He was more future vader back then

And note that Ford really went out of his way to distance himself from that B.S. in the last 6 years

[RoyGBiv]

26. I know ...

Again, as noted, I don't really blame him for it. It's just something with which I associate his name -- and have since Reagan when I first realized what a crazed ass Cheney was -- and moreso than the pardon thing, which I maintain was only important in the context of what Ford was trying to do to keep the country from falling apart completely. We truly were on the brink of self-destruction when Ford took office, and while I do not think he was a good President, I give him credit for putting a halt to what looked like the beginning of a decent into a French sort of revolution in its worst phases.

[Why Syzygy]

5. big UM?

Who said Gerald Ford was due any respect? "all" respect? What was your landship departure date?

edit: as a renegade from teevee, I smell an MSM floating. Know a turd when you smell one.
Gerald Ford is due no respect. He was a dunce. A fill-in-the-blank. A blank bullet when the empty shell Nixon got shot down.

Respect? Give me a break.

[bbinacan]

21. Why are you busting the OP?

And your comments about turds et al are disgusting. A President of The United States of America has died. Have some respect. Please?

[Why Syzygy]

28. Some people tell me

I should honor GWB because of his office, PoUS.
I don't want to get rude here, but were you on the planet when honorable G Ford was 'in charge'?

Hear my prayer:
No disgrace to the departed, quick speed. I'm sorry. Thank you. May I be healed of all you did not do. Forgive. Then begin again. Agreement.

Ford is not president! We have no president. We have a dictator.

Now I'll go on my rant. There are a lot of disgusting things on Du. Surely if you have been here, you have seen some.

Don't ask me for respect when our men are dying. Put an end to the massacre. Then ask for respect.

[stansnark]

52. i will respect anyone that earns it

[Toucano]

7. Important thing to remember.

I wouldn't praise him as a great leader, but as Republican presidents go, he was probably the least evil.

Pardoning Nixon is his great transgression.

[951-Riverside]

8. Someone will probably say the same about Bush II n/t

[Why Syzygy]

11. lol

All he ever did was bounce a golf ball off someone's head and fall down on the golf course.
And of course spawn the Betty Ford Centers for Recovery from Insanity.
Yes. A benevolent leader.

[RoyGBiv]

20. Betty Ford Centers ...

Betty Ford Centers are a positive thing in that they brought into the mainstream the fact that addiction is a disease that can be treated more effectively than it can be punished. That was a very important acknowledgment for the times. I don't think it should be minimized.

[Why Syzygy]

24. there is more punishment now

than before Betty Ford got her "intervention" . and I suppose the business model.

My aunt has been to the center. I know the business. It was a disservice to recovery in general.

No one has brought into the mainstream that addiction is a disease. Howard Dean had a strong voice on that, but no one was listening. Betty Ford Center is another high dollar, if you can afford to be coddled place. I have no respect for her either. She and Nancy Reagan probably set back addiction recovery 1,000 years. Yes. They mainstreamed it. Right out of existance for people who don't have mainstream.

[RoyGBiv]

27. I knew this response was coming ...

Context. It's all about context.

If not for Betty Ford Centers, and their promotion, the mere idea that addiction is a disease would likely not have reached the mainstream in the lifetime of many of those such an idea did in fact help. And you *can* get treatment today, whereas receiving such treatment before the 70's was near to impossible. Whether the centers themselves assisted people is rather irrelevant in that context, and I don't really care about the centers today, again speaking from that context. "Addiction as disease" was an idea that had been promoted for decades and had received little in the way of public acceptance.

And, yes, there is more punishment today, started in part by Ford's primary opponent and his bizarre wife who in effect took the opposite stance.

[Why Syzygy]

32. Sorry disagree.

Betty Ford promoted the idea of "recovery centers". A business model.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with "recovery".

Addiction is still not treated as a disease. Addicts receive the lowest possible care provided.. by whatever the insurance passes as "recovery".

If you haven't been there. Please hold your tongue.

The Treatment, which is slowly evolving, is community. It is not isolation.

Betty Ford did the best she could. But she got it wrong.

Addiction is lack of community.

[RoyGBiv]

33. Ya know ...

You make a lot of assumptions. I see another post in this thread where you challenge someone's age. You by implication challenge my experiences in life.

So let me just leave it at this. I challenge your knowledge. Your original comment on this subject blithely wrote-off Betty Ford Centers as essentially failed insane asylums. I could have taken offense at that, but I didn't. I simply suspected you were ignorant of what they did and so mentioned what they did in a rather straight-forward way. I am left believing you don't really understand the context of the times, what Betty Ford Centers meant to them, or in fact the history -- and its context -- that revolves around Ford's term of office.

[Why Syzygy]

35. btw

I liked Betty more than any of them. I believe she made the family courageous.
She was the true trooper of the team.

I hated what they did to her. It was on prime teevee. The intervention.
Did you see that?

That's one major I cannot respect Gerry. He let his wife go through that on TEEVEE?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

39. She was also the 2nd celebrity to admit to having breast cancer

Some of you young ones don't remember the silence around cancer of any kind.

The first politician's wife that I remember talking about having breast cancer was Happy Rockefeller, and that was in the early or mid sixties.

Then Betty Ford got breast cancer and had a mastectomy, and that was really a courageous thing for her to do, to talk about it.

You young people don't know about the things nobody ever talked about in our parents' (the ones raised in the 20s and 30s) generation. Sex and cancer and divorce and any kind of addiction come to mind.

That's why boomers insisted on talking about EVERYTHING because we were mad; our parents didn't tell us anything much that was useful on the big topics--what sex was about, picking a mate, dealing with life, or even acting shameful when we insisted on talking about things. That's why boomers started feminist groups, encounter groups, recovery groups, all sorts of groups, to talk and have nothing be taboo.

[Why Syzygy]

72. We emerged from

the Victorian era a raging . give it to me straight . persona. Exactly. And we can't turn back.

[uppityperson]

68. "Addiction is lack of community"? Are you serious that all addictions stem from lack of community?

First you call them "Betty Ford Centers for Recovery from Insanity" and now you insult everyone dealing with an addiction by saying the problem is "lack of community"? wow

[Why Syzygy]

74. Yes?

And your position?

[uppityperson]

85. addictions are a physiological condition

speaking of the disease of Addiction. This is sort of like the difference between saying "I'm depressed" meaning sad vs having clinical depression. Biochemical problem. Having poor self control and eating all the cookies in the house would be along the like of the first depression in previous statement. Being addicted to alcohol, having biochemical physiological things happen IF you ever drink alcohol is the second, big "A" Addiction.

Yes, addicts can choose to not use whatever they are addicted to, but the disease never ever goes away.

[evilkumquat]

40. Can I Get Some Help Opening This Can of Worms?

Addiction is NOT a "disease". It has NEVER been one.

Ask any cancer victim, or diabetic who has to inject herself daily just to stay alive (something my wife has had to do for the last twenty years).

Addiction is a choice. Sure an addict may get the sweats, shakes and the pukes, but in the end, taking that drink, or snorting that line, or popping that pill or (in my case) swallowing that Twinkie... it all comes down to choice.

No cancer victim wakes up and decides to grow that lump on his thyroid by another half inch; no diabetic glances at her stomach and wills for her pancreas to stop producing insulin.

Not to downplay the seriousness of addiction (I cannot stop gorging myself on polyunsaturated fats and that is nothing to the addiction levels of cigarettes and alcohol), but to call such addictions "diseases" is just insulting to those with REAL problems.

Evil Kumquat

PS. Screw Ford!

[RoyGBiv]

42. Oh, I should let this go ...

But I won't.

That post is full of more ignorant statements than I am accustomed to seeing on DU.

You apparently don't understand addiction. It is not now nor has it ever been a "choice." I would take you to task on this, but I've slowly learned that such profound, willful ignorance is in fact a choice, not a disease, and truly can't be cured.

[Why Syzygy]

44. This is helping me .

I didn't pop out out of the birth canal and say, where can I sign up to be an addict.

But I've been putting this off. There is a huge degree of responsibility we take for weaknesses we are presented with. I cannot answer for every individual instance of disease.

I cannot let anyone tell me that my propensity for addicition was 'my fault'. I didn't sign the papers. But does anyone? Does anyone say, sign me up for cancer victim?

Same ole .. what do you do with it? How does it serve you?

[RoyGBiv]

46. Not sure where you're going with this ...

But, no, you didn't sign up to be an addict, inferring as I am from your comments that you have struggled with this, and comments even hinting that you did should be treated with nothing but contempt.

My previous comments do not indicate the full depth of the disgust I feel at someone who has the audacity even to suggest, not to mention unequivocally proclaim, that addiction is a choice. (And I'm going to bed now, because the longer I think on that, the more pissed I get, and so I should just let this go as one more bit of irrelevance posted to an anonymous forum in some corner of the Internet.)

Mental diseases are diseases. Anyone who wants to claim otherwise better thrown down some serious literature that contradicts about a century of development on the concept of what a disease is ... literature not funded by Pat Robertson or his ilk, that is.

[evilkumquat]

49. Unless a Gun Was Held to Your Head...

...no one forced you to pop that first pill...

...or smoke that first cigarette...

...or drink that first shot...

...or snort that first line...

...or inject that first (whatever they call whatever the hell heroin comes in)...

It is all a matter of personal choice and personal responsibility.

I have known addicts who did not go to a clinic. They had an addiction, whether it was cigarettes, booze or coke (the powdery kind, not the battery acid-flavored cola), and each of them quit by merely NOT taking another puff, drink or snort. It was hard. They suffered. But they persevered.

As painful as it is for anyone to admit, especially to himself, addiction is a choice, and failure to curb that addiction is a mental weakness, not physical. It is a choice to continue taking a drug, or quitting it and putting up with the short-term (but admittedly painful) physical distress associated with withdrawal.

I just get irked when people try to put drug addiction on the same pedestal of pain as a real disease.

Evil Kumquat

PS. I hate and apologize for how sanctimonious these posts sound. God knows I am far from the perfect model of self-restraint (as my fearful bathroom scale would attest), and none of which I speak is based on my own personal demons, but rather observations made of my friends and acquaintances, as well as various media sources and my own feelings on personal responsibility.

PPS. Screw Ford! (in case anyone forgot what the OP was all about)

[LeftishBrit]

69. No; but most people are able to smoke one cigarette, take one drink (or indeed quite a few drinks);

etc.; etc.; without becoming addicted.

In a sense, alcoholism may be the result of a 'wrong' choice (for that person) of taking that first drink. But so many other people take that first drink and don't become addicted! The same is true of lots of other substances, including many illegal ones. There are all kinds of genetic and environmental factors that contribute to making one person become addicted, when many other people, who made exactly the same initial choices, do not.

And illnesses and injuries are also often linked to choices in SOME way. If you hadn't chosen to run down the stairs, or go ski-ing, you might not have broken your leg (but lots of people run downstairs and go ski-ing without breaking their legs). If you always ate a healthy diet, you might not have heart trouble (but lots of people eat a less than healthy diet without getting heart trouble; and lots of people have heart trouble despite a healthy diet). Ultimately, one can't live life without taking SOME risks - and I say this as a cautious person and strong advocate of preventive medicine. There is little point in blaming those people who are unlucky enough to suffer bad consequences from these risks - when many others do not.

And as regards people who overcome addiction through determination, without medical help - certainly there are, and all congratulations to them. Similarly, before modern medicine, there were people who underwent operations without anaesthesia or pain relief, and recovered from pneumonia through careful nursing without any antibiotics, and recovered from mental illnesses without medication or appropriate therapy and despite being treated as possessed by 'demons'. Just because some people recover from illnesses without adequate treatment, doesn't mean that these aren't illnesses. And of course, there were plenty of people who did not recover or survive. I am glad that more medical help exists nowadays, for all types of conditions.

[Why Syzygy]

75. Addiction

I don't back off any of my prior statements. But "addiction" is primarily an 'illegal' way to deal with a real medical problem or a spiritual quest. As earlier cited DOCTOR Dean will attest.

My opinion, having been there done that, is that addiction is a self medication way of treating a social, moral, physical issue that modern *medical science* fails to address.

IOW. What you can buy over the counter is better than the pharmacy *quaint*.

This is a huge problem. It is perfectly okie dokie if I go on a med which is later found to cause irreversable twitches . or insanity . or suicide . as long as a doctor wrote the script and a licensed person filled it. And I could live on that for EVER and not be considered an *addict*. But let me find a 'street drug' (which I do not recommend) or over the counter intoxicant and I go on the label as, Addict.

Who wants to begin the dissection?

Addict is anyone out of 'mainstream'. You can be an addict to the pharmcos all day long and who cares? They are getting profit. I won't even go into the purest form of opium coming from Afghanistan since the USofA occupation! Wow. Can we produce those poppies. Just don't try to buy any, unless you know some DEA's .

It is all so ridiculous.

Bottom line. Give people access to their plants (native) and then BUG OFF.

One more white guy taking over. And so it goes.

[Why Syzygy]

56. Peace.

It isn't a choice. It's a medication.

[evilkumquat]

47. Cancer and Diabetes are Treated with Drugs

How does one treat the "disease" of addiction?

With training and behavioral modification ONLY; any drugs used are to forestall the worst of withdrawal symptoms. All rehab clinics offer pretty much the same remedy: keep the drug away from the patient until that patient is past cold turkey.

Instead of accusing me of ignorance, please give actual examples of how drug addiction is a disease.

Can one catch it like a cold or the flu?

Can one get it via genetic mutation or exposure to environmental toxins?

Can one inherit it from his parents (who did not drink or do the drugs while pregnant)?

Drug addicts need treatment. They need help. They have my sympathy.

But the bottom line is, addicts still have a choice in the matter: take a swig of Jack Daniels or suffer the shakes. The beauty of alcoholism is that, by suffering enough, the pangs eventually go away.

A cancer victim, however, dies.

Evil Kumquat

[RoyGBiv]

48. I fear ...

You're missing the entire point.

Purposefully.

[evilkumquat]

51. Okay Then, Please Spell it Out For Me:

My point is that holding drug addiction up to the same standards as REAL diseases like cancer, diabetes, heart failure, etc. cheapens the pain of those who suffer from the latter, since all an addict has to do is put up with the short-term pain of withdrawal symptoms while cancer victims have to resort to painful and debilitation treatment via drugs and radiation to stay alive (and diabetics have to inject themselves daily and monitor their blood sugar levels several times a day via painful finger-pricks).

I might also add that an addict SAVES gobs of money by refraining from their habit while the people with actual diseases go broke paying for the necessary life-saving remedies. Hell, even the stupid paper strips for blood-testing for diabetics are expensive as hell!

Please do not construe from this post that I feel those who suffer from drug addiction are unworthy of sympathy.

They deserve sympathy. But they also VOLUNTARILY took that first step toward their addiction.

It is the same reason that a forty-year-old who smoked twenty packs of cigarettes a day gets a little less sympathy for succumbing to lung cancer than a ten-year-old leukemia victim.

And, while we are on the subject, Suite: Judy Blue Eyes is a great song, but goddammit how the hell did David Crosby get to the front of the line for a new liver? That would be like Canada letting Bush take over up there after 2009.

Evil Kumquat

[RoyGBiv]

71. Read a medical journal ...

I'm not going to debase myself (or waste my time) by arguing a point that is such common knowledge that it's become a part of the medical lexicon.

Your views are, to use the more polite phrasing of another, ill-informed. I doubt attempts to inform you would yield positive results.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RoyGBiv]

83. I will admit ...

That the American Medical Association began classifying alcoholism, to use one example, as a treatable illness in the 1950's and that it was classified as a disease by the same organization in 1966. I will admit that controversy surrounds the use of the term "disease" to describe addiction, fostered in part by a political debate over personal responsibility and whether those who suffer from addiction deserve the same kind of medical benefits that someone with a disease caused by a pathogen might be due. I will leave it to readers' own devices to determine the relevance of this.

I will also admit that the original disease model for addiction was flawed, in part due to a lack of research and thus knowledge of brain mechanics and the relationship between genetics and certain hormones to addiction. The National Institute of Health has, over the last couple decades, developed a better model of addiction as disease that focuses on these aspects of the problem, the current state of the conclusion being that ingestion of substances that may be addictive are at first voluntary but that the addiction itself is not, that *addiction* is in fact a disease.

Start here and work your way around:

http://www.nida.nih.gov/about/welcome/aboutdrugabuse/chronicdisease/

Now, if you want to go argue with the NIH or the AMA or any of the other vastly more knowledgeable people and organizations on this matter, feel free. I'm done here. That "choice" comment you initially made is asinine, and I have no more time for those whose best debate tactic is to launch the Freep-Bomb, which is against DU rules, btw.

[evilkumquat]

87. Thank You For the Rule Clarification

Like most people who peruse forums, I have never bothered reading the Rules and Regulations of DU; as a member of many varied online forum groups (ranging from politics and computer technology to online gaming and even celebrity plastic surgery), I have always understood that the major rules almost always boil down to behave oneself and never personally attack another poster. The content of the poster's message, maybe, but never, EVER the poster himself (except, of course, if the poster is merely a troll).

I would never have posted what I did in the earlier message had I thought it would be construed as a personal attack, let alone the reference to the "F Word". The post made reference to the way my earlier posts were treated and how one could easily draw parallels to the way posters behave on other sites.

If, indeed, you felt my post was name-calling and took it as a personal insult, my apologies. Rest assured, however, I was making reference only to the manner in which you were treating me. Remember: petty, niggling differences aside, by being members of this forum, the two of us are pretty much still on the same side of the political spectrum, with our similarities far outweighing our differences.

I also thank you for finally answering the requests of my previous posts by including actual arguments, rather than what seemed to be dismissive hand-waving previously provided. The URL provided was helpful, but not decisive, as a quick online search can find many URLS bolstering not only your position, but mine as well.

It is clear that both you and I have had negative experiences involving addiction, either personal involvement or by those we know and love (or hate). Oddly enough, our experiences seem to have driven both of us to opposite ends of the spectrum as to the nature of addiction, with you taking the position that most addicts are controlled by insurmountable compulsion no different than cancer and mine that bottom line, addicts are addicts by choice (albeit, one that may be easily confused as an "insurmountable compulsion").

Evil Kumquat

[Why Syzygy]

76. You convinced me!

There is no such thing as drug addiction! There is only drug volunteerism. ..

[Why Syzygy]

43. Addiction is a mental disease

not the same status as someone who stuffs themselves with cakes all day until they need insulin. Oh no.

The body is a mirror of the soul . no matter what form it takes and how dare anyone with diabetes tell me their disease is better than mine.

[etherealtruth]

60. That is not exactly a well informed statement

addiction is a horrible disease ... with real physiological changes occurring in the body

[uppityperson]

84. I am amazed by the lack of knowledge shown in replies about addiction.

I am having a hard time believing that people still do not believe that there is a physiological reason for addictions, and having a hard time believing people do not know what a true addiction is. It is sort of like the difference between saying "I'm depressed" and clinical depression. Amazing what responses have come here. I am not going to get into trying to educate here about true addiction, but just wanted to say I am amazed.

[calimary]

29. That is certainly true. What I think about in terms of Gerry Ford is

several-fold: He pardoned Nixon - bad. He married the remarkable, marvelous Betty - VERY good. He was a fairly mellow guy and, frankly, a place-holder - good. He gave Chevy Chase's career a nice boost - good, if you're a Chevy Chase fan (although those SNL moments were absolutely CHOICE!). He campaigned selflessly for reagan in 1980 even while sore loser reagan pulled out and went home and pouted in 1976 and wouldn't help him - good (for Ford. Shitty for reagan - tells you something about him, doesn't it?) And, what alternately gained my admiration AND my disdain: after the presidency, he retired to the sweet life on the golf courses and corporate boards-of-directors - good, in that he got OUT OF THE WAY, didn't try to be some butt-in-ski; bad, in that he went straight for the gravy train (but then again, don't most of them? The only thing that stopped reagan was that Alzheimers' had set in too noticeably by then for him to have much of a life after he left the White House). He had a FAIRLY benevolent two years, probably because he didn't/couldn't stick around long enough to seriously piss off too many people beyond the Nixon pardon business, and as so many others around here pointed out, he was the last fairly benign, fairly tolerable Republican president. The rest of 'em since have been various shades of MONSTER.

Mainly, I didn't care for him much, but I found myself absolutely LOVING and greatly admiring his wife. She was/still is GREAT. What she has done in her later life to encourage women fighting breast cancer, and to demystify the whole alcoholism bugaboo, to put a human face on it, was a true public service to all of America, and to people everywhere who fight those same demons. What a great, courageous, down-to-earth woman! She alone did a lot to rehabilitate him, at least with me. If he brought HER in with him, he mustn't have been a dreadfully bad guy. I thought she was just terrific!

[stansnark]

53. don't forget the WIN buttons

[Why Syzygy]

73. Pardoning Nixon

was probably the best thing he did. And the Viet Vets. He was a president of Pardons.

It sounded like, oh we got it wrong. And now everything will be okay.

[Tom Joad]

9. As bad as that was, it was nothing compared to his complicity in genocide

He gave the green light to Indonesia to invade East Timor.
go to this thread and kick it for the people of East Timor, one of the bloodiest occupations in history.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2982626

[jaysunb]

10. Sorry...he did the right thing.

I lived through it and still think the country was better for it. Nixon continues to be punished for his crimes.
Let it go.

[GemMom]

12. I'm with you.

You said exactly what I was going to say. The country needed to move on from the Nixon issues as quickly as possible. Gerald Ford stepped up when he was asked. Do we fault him for that?

[tomp]

18. sorry but you and jay snub have it dead wrong....

...and i won't let it go.

please explain the difference between letting nixon slide and letting bush slide, or do you want that, too.

the pardoning of nixon was an egregious complicity and obstruction of justice by ford, as in "accessory after the fact".

the nation needed desperately to learn the full lesson of all nixon's crimes, and we are paying now for what he let slide earlier.

[uppityperson]

30. what are you talking about? What are we paying for now?

Bush's are related to Nixon? Whatever Nixon did is now being played out by bushs? What? Nixon was a paranoid little man who lied and cheated and sneaked around like every other president, except he got caught at it. So how are we now paying for this?

[thingfisher]

65. You need to do some research!

May I suggest you find some of the posts by the venerable Octafish for starters?

Nixon got into politics by responding to an ad in the newpaper posted by a group of whom Prescott Bush was principle. Nixon is a long time fixture in the Bush crime family. So YES Bush's are 'related" to Nixon. The more you read about it the more outraged you may become.

[Why Syzygy]

78. TY

I cannot believe Duers are giving Ford a RIP. No harm to the living or dead. But really.
A little history here?

This did not start 12/2000 .. They have been working up to it, see? And planning a world takeover, see? And some people were not even paying attention or were not born, see? So now. We are faced with a global dementor who kills people at will, our own included. See? Tune in?

Nixon was a seed. Ford was a little spray. I cannot stand to see Du'er HONOR a Reich winger.

[uppityperson]

86. I ask tomp what is meant by a statement and you tell me I need to do research?

I am asking tomp what he/she meant. I like to get clarification from the person I ask since they can clarify themselves, though thank you for your description of Nixon.

[Feron]

38. Nixon will forever be remembered as being a crook.

A billion pardons will never wash away that stain. Nixon already lost his job and was tainted, so there was really no point in having a trial that would make the Ford administration's job even harder. It's pretty much impossible to steer the country in one direction when you have a media circus and a trial yanking the wheel the other way. A sitting president doesn't want to be in the shadow of his predecessor.

And there's a big difference between a sitting President who can be impeached and one who resigned in disgrace. Bush certainly hasn't skated because at the very least he will be remembered as a lousy, incompetent president responsible for a gigantic FUBAR. The rest is still unwritten.

[Why Syzygy]

79. Fubar?

You call 3,000 American citizens dead a Fubar? Was the world trade center a fubar?

Let's count the toll. 20,000 at LEAST maimed for life, eternity on earth, without limbs. Untold numbers without their right minds ever returning, fubar. Probably, 100,000 at LEAST dead and maimed innocent Iraqi people. Fubar.

I don't think you know what Fubar means.

[Zynx]

41. Nixon's punishment was his reputation being destroyed.

His crimes regarding Watergate were minor compared to the real crimes of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Chile for which he would have never stood trial. Nixon's utter destruction in the eyes of history was justice enough and all a trial would have done is dragged out the pain of that scandal.

[Raine]

57. I agree nt

[evilkumquat]

13. Agreed! With One Movement of His Pen on One Scrap of Paper...

...he basically said "Crime pays."

Screw him!

Seriously! Screw him!

And screw the committee that awarded him the JFK Profiles in Courage a few years ago for that pardon.

I am so sick of the "he helped heal the nation by putting Watergate behind us" argument.

He merely helped the guy who gave him his job while at the same time setting the stage for every subsequent President to never have to face the music for crimes committed while in office.

Had Nixon served jail time for his offenses, that would have sent a clear message to Reagan, Bush the Elder and the current asshole who keeps the chairs warm in the Oval Office: "Use your office for illegal personal gain, you can go to jail just like any other thief."

Did I mention "screw him" already?

Evil Kumquat

PS. Screw him!

[LibraLiz1973]

25. I have to argue that I think he did the exact right thing

Remember, this happened a long time ago. Pardoning Nixon has almost no relation to the Bush nightmare.
It was a totally different time.
We are alot more well informed now than our counterparts back then.
They had no 24 hour news channels... no internet sites to research on...
He did the right thing for the time.
ALOT had happened in the years leading up to that and the country was in flux.
Nixon was an idiot but Bush is an EVIL idiot.
I'd argue that Nixon was just a frickin jackass. He had no vision.
It was a complete abuse of power, but he definitely paid for it. (over and over and over)

What do you think would have been different had he not been pardoned?
How would it make you feel better?

EDITED FOR SPELLING

[evilkumquat]

36. For the Same Reason ANY Criminal Going to Jail

A sense of justice.

A sense that, in this country, not only do the same laws apply to everyone, but the same penalties as well.

More people need to go to jail besides poor minorities and drug addicts who ARE NOT celebrities.

Evil Kumquat

[thingfisher]

67. OH PLEEEEZE!!!

AS I have poster before do your research! See Octafish! Nixon was an evildoer as much as Bush! He was an integral part of the whole Bush crime family!

[Zookeeper]

31. Look at it this way....

at least we didn't end up with Spiro Agnew as President.

[Cassandra]

34. In an interview, Ford said...

that he pardoned Nixon because Watergate and a possible impeachment was consuming 25% of his time and he had more urgent matters to deal with. I think it was well worth his time, since the rest of his time in office was spent vetoing almost every bill sent to him and touting those stupid WIN (whip inflation now) buttons that did nothing. He was a place holder; honest for a Republican, but not terribly competent.

[evilkumquat]

37. "Honest for a Republican"

Runner-up phrases:

"Gentle for a rapist"

"Tolerant for a racist"

"Literate for a Bush daughter"

"Smart for a Yale legacy"

"Skinny for a regular McDonald's customer"

"Pleasant for a bucket of liquid pig shit"*

Evil Kumquat

*Admittedly, running out of ideas at this point.

[Why Syzygy]

80. And bouncing

golf balls. Bush has tried this with his chain saw massacre of the wild woods on the farm.
Doesn't float. Did you see Moore's 911? Bush, hitting a golf ball. Doesn't fly any more does it?
Golf just seems so out of season when 20 dead are shipped home from Iraq every day.

Gerald got away with it. He was the golf boy! Look it up! Oh look, Mr. President is playing golf so all must be well. Well guess what. It ISTN"T.

How many caskets show up every fucking day? Due to Bushitas regime. I bet he doesn't do another photo op with a fucking golf club.

[leftofthedial]

45. ford was NOT a good guy

he was a placeholder and a pliable servant of the owners of the repuke party trying to replace the paleos (nixon) with the neos (raygun et al).

and he was a buffoon--an archeo-prototype for all repuke "presidents" since.

[Why Syzygy]

54. Thank you.

due no respect at all. Barely even "President". Honor the dead. But do not give them honors above their heads. This almost seemed like a repug plant thread to HONOR FORD?

He was not a statesman. Who was that other blonde dunce who couldn't spell potato? See?

I took a bashing on this thread, and I don't care. Because Gerald Ford was an EMBARASSMENT until we could elect a Real President, Ronald Reagan! Play along. It's Candy Cane Lane.

[Cassandra]

61. Neo cons, indeed.

He did bequeath us Rummy and Darth Cheney.

[Why Syzygy]

55. I really wish you would take that back

"with all due respect". RIP, the same as any soul who walked here.

Repeat first post. This man was due NO respect. Other than he walked among us.

I cannot believe DUers are bowing down to G. Ford.

[hfojvt]

58. I am sorta reminded of when I was arguing with a bunch of socialists

including their Presidential candidate, BTW, who took enough votes in Florida in 2000 to take the election away from Gore.

Anyway, they were ruthlessly attacking Clinton for pardoning some rich guy named Marc, I forget the last name. It just made Clinton a horrible person, they thought.

Such all or nothing thinking. Ford deserves no respect, just like Bush or Hitler or Stalin or Dahmer. None. He's totally fu$%ing evil. 110%

So even though Ford was an Eagle scout - no respect.
That he could have played in the NFL - no respect.
Worked his way through law school - no respect.
Served in the Navy in WWII - no respect.
Wrote a piece in support of affirmative action - no respect.
"Wrote a piece supporting affirmative action, a case the Bush administration decided to argue on the other side:

http://www.ford.utexas.edu/library/speeches/990808.htm "

"With all due respect" is not "bowing down". It is pretty opened ended. He could be due no respect, or he could be due lots of respect. The phrase 'with all due respect' does not say either way. In fact, it is more like lip service to the idea of respect, a disclaimer preceding an attack.

[Why Syzygy]

59. Thank you for the record

Yes, we had high hopes he could pull us out of the the disgrace.
But with all his trophies, he could not. He played golf.

As someone said upstream, he was a placeholder. Great credentials. No accomplishments.

Your call.

Do you not think that the country was THIRSTY for a drop? He gave none. Pass it on. Legacy.

[Gman]

62. I was as outraged as anyone at that time

but in retrospect, as a country, we really did need to put it behind us because Nixxon was gone and that was the bottom line. That's what we wanted anyway at that time.

Still, if Nixxon had been prosecuted and convicted we would have had that precedent NOW looming over Bush and Cheney now. At some point, this country is going to have to take it's president's off the pedestal we put them on and prosecute them for their crimes when it is deserved.

[Imagevision]

63. Pardoning Nixon was clearly understood by Ford weeks before it happened!!

google; Ford pardoned Nixon

[Why Syzygy]

81. That was the handshake

the ONLY reason Nixon got the hell out of dodge. Little Gerry would say, no wrong.
Wimp.

Honor him as a human being. Not ever as doing ANYFUCKINGTHING for our country.

He pardoned a mad man. wink ;) A lot of us were disappointed in that. We had hoped for something better. But, alas. We still hope.

[iamthebandfanman]

66. thank you

for not disrespecting a dead person and at the same time making your point on why you didnt personally like the man.

thank god. an adult.

[RestoreGore]

70. Would Carter Have Been President If Ford Hadn't Pardoned Nixon?

Just curious about that, but I do agree, the pardon is unforgiveable. Hopefully, Bush won't get one.