Can a President Pardon Himself?

[tritsofme]

All this talk surrounding Gerald Ford's infamous pardon of Nixon got me thinking.

The only thing Article II Section 2 says about pardons is:

The President...shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

So it seems a POTUS could not pardon himself or anyone else brought up on charges of impeachment, but for other crimes it seems possible.

Obviously such an act would get horrible press and leave a horrible legacy for that president, but it doesn't seem to be prohibited.

Thoughts?

[Philosoraptor]

1. cheney resigns or dies, bush replaces him with his own pardoner

after bush himself resigns in disgrace, his hand picked successor will pardon him, it's already set up I'm sure.

[tritsofme]

3. Surely we know that is possible

With the Nixon precedent.

But my question was whether a president could theoretically pardon himself.

[Philosoraptor]

4. I don't think he can pardon himself, legally.

I may be wrong, and have been quite a few times. Plus we know bush is no one to stick to the holy rule of law anyway.

[tritsofme]

5. In the OP I posted the relevant section of the Constitution

and from a plain reading of the wording, it doesn't appear anything could stop a president from pardoning himself.

Before I read it, I had always assumed there was something in the wording that prohibited pardoning one's self and forbid pardoning a treason conviction, but it looks like neither are there.

[sam sarrha]

12. that is why we need to impeach them both at the same time, or just hand em both over to the Hague,

they will probably hang them for crimes against humanity

[tritsofme]

13. Luckily the rest of the civilized world has rid itself of capital punishment

Especially international tribunals.

[sam sarrha]

26. i will settle for life...

[Hubert Flottz]

2. Most of them do but...

But the one we have now is proud of his, and calls everyone's attention to them.

[luckyleftyme2]

6. SEEMS LIKE A SIMPLE SOLUTION

All we have to do is start impeachment proceedings as our first political move to get the country back. since he cannot get pardoned from impeachment.
AND I would say if they found him guilty they put it on a ballot to the people. surely this is the way this president should be remembered in history, A president who sold out the people!
And believe me it would be ratified by a landside.

[tritsofme]

7. I don't believe the initiation of impeachment impedes the ability of the POTUS

to grant pardons in other regards.

Impeachment is a political act, not a criminal one.

I assume if removal from office became imminent, he could pardon away any legal responsibility for alleged crimes, and the worst that could happen is conviction by the Senate.

Nice thought on the ballot, but there's really not a way to do that.

[H2O Man]

14. While a president can

continue to pardon people, even if he is the subject of House impeachment hearings, he cannot pardon others who are the subject of those same House hearings.

Also, on DU we frequently read that "impeachment is a political act, not a criminal one." That is partly true. Impeachment can indeed be a political act, when done for the wrong reason. And it is not a criminal trial. It is, rather, a two-part civil trial, based upon laws, and done in a legal manner.

[tritsofme]

15. It is political in that the only consequences of impeachment and conviction

are political.

You can be removed from office and forbade from holding any other federal office for a period of time specified by Congress, and that's about it.

[H2O Man]

16. That's a pretty big

"about it."

[tritsofme]

17. When your that deep in a pile of shit

You know you're going to leave office prematurely one way or another, and you have to start looking at ways to avoid criminal prosecution and jail time.

That's the difference between politcal and criminal.

[H2O Man]

19. Impeachment

in no way helps one avoid criminal prosecution or jail time.

[conscious evolution]

24. Wrong

From Article 1 Section 3 of the US Constitution
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

There is no time limits or length of punishment established for the results of conviction on Impeachment.It just says disqualification.
I take that to mean for as long as the convicted is alive.
I also think that the line about 'office of profit' part disqualifies him from holding any type of corporate or business office after removal from office.
This section also says that the convicted can be held accountable by lessor courts after removal from office.It doesn't distinguish between civil or criminal law.Bushco can held liable for any laws broken.

Impeachment is for criminal acts.The Constitution is clear on that.Treason,Bribery and High Crimes and Misdemeanors are all criminal acts.

[tritsofme]

30. Disqualification is optional

A recent example being Alcee Hasting, who was impeached and convicted as a federal judge, but was not disqualified from holding office, and consequently he is now a Flordia congressman who was embroiled in a chairmanship fight a month ago.

I see no reason that upon conviction Congress could not set any arbitrary time limit on disqualification.

I have never heard that section interpreted to include corporations.

[conscious evolution]

31. I never heard that about Hastings.

So much to keep track of these days,you know.I'll check into it,though.

'I have never heard that section interpreted to include corporations.'

What else could it mean?
A look back in history reminds us that one of the reasons for revolution against the British was British business interests were using the power of goverment to ensure profits for themselves.When the founding fathers were writing the Constitution they were vary aware that such shenanigans could easily happen here so they undoubtedly included Profit to cover just such situations in the future.

[tritsofme]

33. I've always heard it interpreted to only include government positions

Congressman, Senator, Cabinet positions , ect.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States

I take "under the United States" to mean government positions.

[conscious evolution]

34. I take under to mean

subject to the control of.

[H2O Man]

35. It's also important

to consider who sits in on the Senate trial in cases of impeachment. It is indeed a civil trial, not a political process.

[Why Syzygy]

8. Hell no! n/t

[Crabby Appleton]

9. Don't see why not, plus

who says a pardon has to be made public. Pardon yourself, have it witnessed and notarized, stick it in your pocket and pull it out when needed.

[tritsofme]

10. Very interesting scenario...

Might all presidents make such secret last minute pardons of themselves "just in case"?

[sam sarrha]

11. he has given others the presidential power of pardon.. initially to protect communications and media

from charges of illegally wiretapping and collecting information on his paranoid quest to find Al Qaeda under everyones bed.

maybe he is covering all the options

[Tesha]

18. Yes, although it would be impolitic to do so. (NT)

[berni_mccoy]

20. If a President Pardoned Himself, he would likely be impeached

And there is no 'statute of limitation' on impeachment.

[Swamp Rat]

21. Bushler can...

he'll just make more 'signing statements' that says he's above the law.

[lonestarnot]

22. Well if he can't, be assured that he will sign a signing statement that says he can. Heh.

[maine_raptor]

23. Yes he can.

If you read "Final Days", there is a section about the possibility of Nixon pardoning the Watergate folks. He had asked the White House legal counsel for a brief on Presidential Pardons and one of the conclusions of that brief was that a President COULD pardon himself.

Presidential pardoning is complete (with the exception of impeachment), absolute, and all encompassing. A President can even pardon someone for crimes not yet committed.

[originalpckelly]

25. Wait a second, that's not right. Gerry Ford's pardon of Nixon was unconstituional!

Read it. It doesn't say that a President may pardon a former President, it says no pardons in cases of impeachment. Articles of impeachment were passed by the House, does that mean Nixon wasn't pardoned?

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

27. Impeachment became moot when Nixon resigned.

Due to the pardon, no further criminal action could be taken against Nixon.

[Javaman]

28. yeah, it's called a signing statement.

:sarcasm:

[Philosoraptor]

29. I know a certain president you can ____ himself.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. Over criminal matters, the President's power to pardon is unlimited

Bush can pardon himself. He can pardon himself (or any one else) for even though charges have not been filed. Nixon was never charged with anything.

On matters of impeachment, the president has no power to pardon. That is specified in Article 2 of the Constitution.