Paul Sanford, first to ask McClellan about Plame/treason link, commits suicide

[LTR]

In what police describe as a "probable" suicide leap, a prominent Monterey Bay Area attorney fell at least nine floors to his death at the Embassy Suites Hotel Monterey Bay in Seaside the morning before Christmas.

(snip)

Almost immediately, he caused a stir after he joined the White House Press Corps in 2005, making waves as the first reporter to ask then-White House press secretary Scott McClellan whether the leaking of CIA agent Valerie Plame's name might be considered an act of treason.

"There has been a lot of speculation concerning the meaning of the underlying statute and the grand jury investigation concerning Mr. Rove," Sanford asked. "The question is, have the legal counsel to the White House or White House staff reviewed the statute in sufficient specificity to determine whether a violation of that statute would, in effect, constitute treason?"

McClellan was apparently flustered by the question and replied that "those are matters for those overseeing the investigation to decide."

The White House incident sparked controversy after Beltway bloggers incorrectly described Sanford as a reporter for the Air America radio network. At the time, he was associated with Watsonville radio station KOMY, an Air America affiliate, and Sanford told reporters he never claimed to work for Air America.

(more)

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/16326502.htm

[displacedtexan]

1. File this under: Things That Make You Go Hmmmm

[HeeBGBz]

91. Hmmmm, indeed

Sounds mighty fishy to me.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LTR]

9. What are you saying?

Think the chimp is going 'Putin' on his enemies?

[baldguy]

3. Another James Hatfield?

[babylonsister]

4. Recently bought a new house and opened a law office?

From the article:

Friends and associates expressed disbelief at the news of Sanford's death and that it was ruled a suicide, saying Sanford seemed happy and had made many plans for this week and in coming months. Mills said he and Sanford recently decided to open a shared law office to serve Monterey and Santa Cruz counties, something Sanford was looking forward to doing.

I agree; very suspicious.

[Philosoraptor]

5. hhhhhhhmmmmmm

[durrrty libby]

6. Geez..the world goes crazy around the holidays. How Sad

[Little Star]

7. After reading the whole article.....

Something is not right. Hummmmmm

[no_hypocrisy]

8. In law, there is the presumption against suicide when there is a

death to be investigated. I'd like more details where it was conclusively determined that his death was without a third party.

[KoKo]

10. "hotel housekeepers saw him pacing the hallway of upper floor.....

"Police said that before Sanford fell, hotel housekeepers saw him pacing the hallway of an upper floor. Cercone said Sanford's car was parked next to the hotel, and he was not checked in as a guest."

[Sperk]

11. small plane crashes, falling out windows, slit wrists in woods, slit

wrists in bathtubs, shot in head in car, cars that catch on fire.....A LOT of suicides since * came into power. Anyone keeping a lists?

[guruoo]

21. I'd like to see that list

[KansDem]

93. Here is such a list--the "Bush Body Count"

Actually...two lists:

Bush Body Count I

also

Bush Body Count II

There's also "BushBodyCount.com" but I couldn't bring that site up.

Hope these sites help in your quest to quench your thirst for knowledge!

[Doctor_J]

153. A lot of the BFEE's enemies end up committing suicide

what a coincidence :eyes:

[PADemD]

12. Wasn't there also

a man who jumped off the roof of a State Department building while his wife was waiting in her car to pick him up?

[seafan]

35. John Kokal.

From Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2003/11/22/03748/656">Mystery surrounds State Department death

Fri Nov 21, 2003 at 09:37:48 PM PST

November 20, 2003 (FTW), WASHINGTON -- In a case eerily reminiscent of the death of British Ministry of Defense bio-weapons expert, Dr. David Kelly, an official of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research Near East and South Asian division (INR/NESA), John J. Kokal, 58, was found dead in the late afternoon of November 7. Police indicated he may have jumped from the roof of the State Department. Kokal's body was found at the bottom of a 20 foot window well, 8 floors below the roof of the State Department headquarters near the 23rd and D Street location. Kokal's death was briefly mentioned in a FOX News website story on November 8 but has been virtually overlooked by the major media.

Interestingly, the FOX report states that State Department officials confirmed Kokal's death to The Washington Post yet the Post - according to an archive search - has published nothing at all about Kokal's death.

Kokal's INR bureau was at the forefront of confronting claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Washington police have not ruled out homicide as the cause of his death. Kokal was not wearing either a jacket or shoes when his body was found. He lived in Arlington, Virginia.

[seafan]

122. 5 days after Kokal's death, Gus Weiss, former WH adviser, also died in a mysterious fall.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A42132-2003Dec6¬Found=true">Gus W. Weiss, 72; White House Adviser

Sunday, December 7, 2003; Page C12

Gus W. Weiss, 72, a former White House policy adviser on technology, intelligence and economic affairs, died Nov. 25 of a fall from the Watergate East residential building in the District. The D.C. medical examiner ruled his death a suicide.

A spokesman for the D.C. police said that officers found his body at a service entrance to the apartment cooperative. Dr. Weiss lived in the building.

snip

He served on the staff of the National Security Council under Presidents Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan. In the Ford administration, he was also executive director of the White House Council on International Economic Policy.

Much of his government work centered on national security, intelligence organizations and concerns over technology transfers to communist countries. As an adviser to the Central Intelligence Agency, he served on the Pentagon's Defense Science Board and the Signals Intelligence Committee of the U.S. Intelligence Board.

During the Carter administration, Dr. Weiss was assistant for space policy to the secretary of defense.

Apparently, Dr. Weiss was also very opposed to the Iraq invasion.

The suspicious fatal fall from the Watergate complex of ex-CIA and NSC official Dr. Gus Weiss a few weeks after Kokal's similar death at the nearby State Department also merits investigation. Weiss, like Kokal, was adamantly opposed to the Iraq war and Weiss, uncharacteristically, went public with his protests.

Weiss worked in the office of Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson in the 1970s, along with Iraqi war architects Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. He also served on the U.S. Intelligence Board under President Jimmy Carter and was considered a hawk during the Carter and Reagan administrations. However, in later years, Weiss broke ranks with his old neoconservative colleagues and came out against the Iraq misadventure.

INR and other State Department officials reported that a "chill" set in at the State Department following Kokal's defenestration. A number of employees were afraid to talk about the suspicious death.

[Morgana LaFey]

88. and how about the reporter (NYT??) who jumped out of some

upper floor windows (at the Times), without his shoes on -- financial reporter who had been covering Enron.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

151. reporter, Allan Myerson

ENRON: Accidental Death of a Journalist
22 Aug 2002
...The body of Allan Myerson, a journalist investigating relationships between the USA administration and the Enron scandal, was found thrown out of a window of the New York Times where he was weekend section editor.

He was found today on the rooftop of a building underneath, according to foreign sources but no headline reporting the news has yet appeared in international mainstream press.

The police are reported to say it may be suicide, but according to close observers the investigations about senior administration involvement in the Enron scandals are becoming increasingly uncomfortable for key officials.

http://www.content-wire.com/Media/Media.cfm?ccs=129&cs=2150

Hardly any other references to this story...

[Morgana LaFey]

228. Thank you

Hardly any other references to this story...

Not right, is it?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

235. No, it is pretty creepy...nt

[leftofthedial]

13. the bush M.O.

*screams* out of this story

[LTR]

14. I posted an article about it on my blog

http://ltradio.blogspot.com/2006/12/monterey-ca-attorneyradio-journalist.html

Has some background into his career. He was very active in First Amendment issues, and also hosted radio shows on a couple local progressive talk stations.

[Gregorian]

15. Don't mess with a Bush. Don't slow down the machine. And remember...

They always make it look like suicide.

In 1990 the FBI planted a bomb, in an assassination attempt on the lives of two people who were protesting the cutting of old growth trees. TREES! Not even a war protest. And when it didn't kill it's intended victims, they claimed it was planted by the victims themselves. But recently, they were sued, and actually lost the case.

It's the story of Darryl Cherney and Judi Bari. Basically, a group of jurors got an eyeful of FBI, and did not like what they were seeing.


http://www.judibari.org/

[roody]

16. very suspicious

[Tuesday_Morning]

17. This Paul Sanford?

Paul Sanford is director of FEC Watch, a project of the Center for Responsive Politics. He also serves as the Center’s general counsel. Sanford came to the Center in November of 2001 after 10 years as a staff attorney in the Office of General Counsel at the Federal Election Commission. During his time at the FEC, he worked on policy issues in many areas of campaign finance law, including soft money, the use of the Internet for campaign activity, personal use of campaign funds and election-related activity by nonprofit corporations.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:FKaVO_CYAXgJ:www.wkconline.org/index.php/seminars/speakerpage/%3Fsid%3D662+%22Paul+Sanford%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=safari

[LTR]

20. Not sure

I ran across that page when I was doing a little research this morning.

The Paul Sanford in Santa Cruz did a radio show that was heavy on election coverage. Not sure if it's the same guy, though, but it looks like it.

[John Q. Citizen]

73. This Paul Sanford:

PAUL SANFORD
B.A. 1979 Connecticut College, New London
J.D. 1983 Monterey College of Law
Private Practice, Aptos

http://www.montereylaw.edu/sub/index.jsp?contentid=IJMDABq5avPZx8M4YWxD8YF8

Paul Sanford is a lawyer and senior citizens advocate from Aptos, California. Paul and Craig are both originally from Wellesley, Massachusetts, and have been friends since elementary school. Paul is one of the few runners who wasn't running at all when the phone call came, but he has been training aggressively and promises to be ready to go when the bell rings. Paul has run three marathons and will be 45 at the time of the relay.
http://www.runamerica.org/2002/team.htm

[Straight Shooter]

18. Sudden suicides do occur, but for the time being, I'm suspicious.

I'll wait for friends and family to collect their thoughts and speak about this. Right now I'm sure everyone is in shock.

Since he was an attorney, I'm 99.99 percent certain he got his papers in order if he was contemplating suicide. It's bizarre to have plans in motion and then do a 180-degree turn.

There are also personality/psychological traits that "jumpers" tend to have in common. I wonder if Sanford had those traits. (See Geo Stone's book, Suicide and Assisted Suicide for more info.)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. I Can Smell The Tin Foil Hat Wearers Running In Here From A Mile Away LOL

No, BFEE did not do this, to any who are gonna claim they did.

Regardless, my thoughts and prayers go out to his family. Very sad news.

[Octafish]

22. Not as fast as defenders of the Bush Crime Family.

Why are you so certain you know what happened, let alone know that the "BFEE did not do this"?

Here are a few people who actually had the guts to investigate the Bush Family Evil Empire, rather than ridicule those who do:

Gary Webb hurt the BFEE’s feelings by tying the CIA's Iran-Contra gang to the crack cocaine epidemic in America's major metropolitan areas. To the Bush gang, telling the truth made Webb an enemy.

Daniel “Danny” Casolaro — Researched BCCI and the Inslaw/PROMIS Affair, found that George HW Bush had ties going around the world and back through Iran-Contra, Iraq-gate, the October Surprise, Watergate, Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs and Dallas. A “suicide.”

Abbie Hoffman — Yippie of the 60s turned into an investigative reporter in the 80s, researched and wrote about “October Surprise” allegations involving George HW Bush, Bill Casey and Robert Gates doing a deal with the Ayatollah Khomeini to delay the release of the USA’s Iran embassy hostages in 1980. The pretty good overview appeared in Playboy in 1992. A “suicide.”

Steve Kangas — Researcher and writer who started “Liberal Resurgent” web site dedicated to naming names like Richard Mellon Scaife and telling the truth about what was happening to America. Wrote the seminal “The Origins of the Overclass” which detailed the role of the CIA in preserving the privileged positions of the nation’s wealthiest individuals and corporations. A “suicide.”

Jim Hatfield — Researcher and writer who penned “Fortunate Son,” an unauthorized biography of George W Bush that included allegations of cocaine use, planted by Karl Rove, who knew that Hatfield, an ex-con would be discredited. The last thing Hatfield wrote “Why Would Osama Want to Kill His Ex-Business Partner?” that detailed bin Laden threatening to crash a plane loaded with explosives into the G-8 summit in Genoa Italy in July 2001. Bush slept offshore aboard a US warship and the meeting was guarded by SAMs. A “suicide.”

Mark Lombardi — Artist and researcher who developed “Global Networks” or “Social Network Diagrams” which illustrated and chronicled the relationships between many of our day’s shadiest characters, institutions and treasons. One of his works graphically charted Osama bin Laden, Sheik Salim bin Laden, James R Bath, Texas Gov George W Bush and HARKEN Energy. A “suicide.”

Cliff Baxter — was the Number Two guy at ENRON. An Air Force Academy graduate, Baxter had told friends he was going to cooperate with investigators. Guess that would’ve really hurt Ken Lay, huh? Well, he would’ve really hurt someone else even more: George Walker Bush and George Herbert Walker Bush. After he passed out from an overdose, a “suicide” by gunshot.

There are more. Good luck to those interested in finding out the truth regarding the Bushes and their cronies.

[Jax]

23. Octafish YOU ROCK!!!!

:thumbsup:

[lies and propaganda]

24. I highly doubt I need to tell you how awesome you are ;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. "Why are you so certain you know what happened"

It's called common sense, sanity, logical deduction and reasoning.

I always laugh so heartily at how any time anything happens to anyone it was part of some big conspiracy. It's so silly and cliche. :rofl:

[Dr Fate]

28. I laugh at the people who think everything is a happy coincidence.

So silly & cliche. So "safe" and "moderate" to assume that a man who would lie us into a war is not capable of offing an enemy or two. ;)

I'm glad your "common sense, sanity, logical deduction and reasoning" has told you there is no possible, conceivable motivation for silencing reporters who investigate Bush.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Coincidence Of What? ROFLMAO!!!! What's Related? There Is No Coincidence.

It is just simply something that happened.

To be a coincidence, there would have to be something he did in the last few weeks that made him worthy of conspiracy murder by the BFEE. Can you tell me what that was? What happened in the last few weeks that would make this a coincidence? Please, indulge me.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Dr Fate]

33. Why does the supposed motivation for his possible murder have to stem from the last few weeks?

???

Besides- you are the one who seems to be arguing that it is a mere coincidence that a reporter who was investigating the Plame crime falls out of a window- not me- I never said it had to be coincidence.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. You're Calling It Coincidence, Not Me.

You are implying that if you don't buy into the insane and irrational conspiracy theory, then you are buying into the fact it was a coincidence.

I'm saying that's absurd, because in order for there to be a coincidence there has to be something as of recent to tie in together.

Guess what, there isn't. There is no coincidence here nor conspiracy. It's a guy who jumped out a window.

But feel free to claim as much silliness as you'd like.

I'll leave this thread to its preposterous tin foil theories now. :hi:

[Dr Fate]

40. Or-Maybe he "fell" out of the window- maybe it was an "accident."

Why is everything a "suicide" right off the bat with you wacky coincidence theorists? People do have accidents or even get murdered every now & then, ya know. ;)

And if it was an accident, it would be a coincidence that an anti-Bush reporter who, coincidently has been investigating the Plame crime- had a deadly accident- certainly not a conspiracy on the part of the Admin- that would be an outrageous thing to even merely consider.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. Never Said It Couldn't Be Murder. I Said It Is INSANE To Think It Was A Conspiracy Of The BFEE.

HUGE difference there, buddy.

[Dr Fate]

78. Yes- it is "INSANE" to think Bushco is capable of violence.

Nuts I tells ya- raving mad NUTS!!!!!!!

A group with a record of revenge (The Plame outing itself is an example) who would lie us into a war would never, EVER do such a thing- wouldnt be Christian.

And all the other coincidental suicides of would-be whistle blowers mentioned on this thread are NOT murders either- they are to be taken together as one big, happy coincidence. It's logic you see.

I must be out of my mind for even considering it for one second.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

82. In This Specific Case? Absolutely.

[Dr Fate]

92. Fine- I was called a nut & conspiracy theorist when I said Bush was lying about WMDs too.

Didnt bother me then, doesnt bother me now.

What seems insane to me is to give Bush the initial benefit of the doubt concerning pretty much anything. I assume the worse and work from there.

I would not be suprised at all if you are 100% correct- I just do not agree with your attitude that anyone who didnt believe this was a suicide or believed it is *possible* that it is a politically motiviated murder is somehow insane or not using common sense.

I reject that notion 100%- but you could be right that this was really a coincidence apart from all the other deaths listed on this thread.

[Stephanie]

132. Speaking of which, where is the anthrax murderer?

It's so strange he's never been caught...

[tom_paine]

141. Not strange at all. Like OJ and his search for the Real Killers

Somebody else said it better than I ever could:

Petty criminals dream of committing the perfect crime in which they leave no clues. State crminals dream of controlling the crime scene, so they can disappear any evidence and tie up any loose ends.

What we have in the Bush Imperial Family,is the apotheosis of the state criminal.

[Dr Fate]

164. Noooo- not "strange" at all- it's just another happy coincidence. n/t

n/t

[fooj]

146. FYI...

I live in Santa Cruz County and there has been NO reporting of his death in the local news. None. Zip. We've watched KSBW 8 every night since Christmas and this is the first that I've heard this. Hmmmmmm...

A local attorney jumps to his death at the ONLY Embassy Suites Hotel on the Central Coast and not a peep on the nightly news...

[Dr Fate]

168. That is merely yet another coincidence in a long line of coincidences.

None of the suicides, falls, accidents, etc that you read about on this thread should be connected in any way what-so-ever. ;)

The fact that the media gave none of these many deaths the same coverage as they did- say Vince Foster, is also just a big, happy coincidence.

[John Q. Citizen]

46. I think this death sounds very suspicious. It doesn't mean

the bush crime family was involved, yet the skimpy details in the story don't add up to suicide either.

Or do you think the details add up to suicide?

I think somebody killed him. Who? I couldn't say. But his friend seems to rule out suicide as a reasonable explaination.

This story will be worth watching.

[thingfisher]

57. That is the point of suiciding people.

It is difficult to "prove" that it wasn't when it apparently was. Even when a Gary Webb shoots himself in the head two times, it was ruled a suicide. Uncertainty is the great ally of conspiracies.
I can't say for certain that this must have been a suicide, but I can place it along side other similar cases and take note of a certain mO which raises suspicion.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumpy]

98. "It is just simply something that happened",

you say. Suicide is something that just doesn't 'simply'happen. There has to be a reason.

[Ghost in the Machine]

102. "To be a coincidence, there would have to be something he did in the last few weeks

that made him worthy of conspiracy murder by the BFEE. Can you tell me what that was? What happened in the last few weeks that would make this a coincidence? Please, indulge me".

While I can usually agree with you on many things, I'll have to disagree with tis assessment. Vengeance is a dish that is best served cold... and the longer it brews the colder it gets. Stupid people act quickly.. the smart ones know to "just give it time, let things die down and blow over until everyone else forgets about it, then do something about it". Been there and done that myself.

How many times have you heard, or even uttered, the phrase: "I'll pay you back for this.. might not be today, might not be next week... 20 years from now, you might walk around a corner and some old bastard's gonna knock you in the head with a cane"? ....

Anyways, the only point I was making is that IF there was foul play, it wouldn't necessarily have to be something from the past couple of weeks. :hi:

PEACE!

Ghost

[blm]

51. I don't think coincidence theorists are funny at all - they're dangerous for democracy

because they are so UNCURIOUS about EVERY suicide that benefits the Bush family in some measurable way.

[robertpaulsen]

54. Common sense requires reading the frickin' article.

Here's a snip that, if you do indeed possess an open mind, might cast some doubt on your open and shut suicide:

Friends and associates expressed disbelief at the news of Sanford's death and that it was ruled a suicide, saying Sanford seemed happy and had made many plans for this week and in coming months. Mills said he and Sanford recently decided to open a shared law office to serve Monterey and Santa Cruz counties, something Sanford was looking forward to doing.

snip

"I just don't know what happened since Thursday. There was nothing on the horizon there to know this was going to happen," Mills said. "We were going to get together this week."

Mills said he had spoken to Sanford's wife, Paula, and that she also was in shock. He said Sanford, a father of two, was a devoted family man.

"This is a horrible thing for his family. He would never have intentionally put his family through that trauma. Something's not right, it doesn't make sense."

Proof of a conspiracy? Of course not. But please spare us your condescending claim that you came to your conclusion through logical deduction and reasoning. Your dismissive patronizing demeans the confusion and doubts of the friends and family who knew him better than you or I. That alone should be enough to make any reasonable person question the official story.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. ROFLMAO!!!!!!! So Family Saying They Don't Believe He'd Do It Equates To The BFEE Murdering Him?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And that deduction is a common sense one in your opinion?

Oh, ok, my bad. :rofl:

[robertpaulsen]

68. ROFLMAO TOO! So creating a strawman is your idea of a rebuttal?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Great comeback! Would you like me to stop beating my wife?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. Ummmm, Have You Not Been Following The Conversation? Please Cite Such A Strawman Please.

You won't find one.

My argument has been that it is absurd to rule this as a huge conspiracy on behalf of the BFEE, period.

To say that my premise of that above sentiment being common sense is wrong, because the family questions the suicide, is totally ridiculous. Unless you can point me where in any article the family offers such whacked out conspiracy theory, than my argument is sound.

So your entire reply above is without merit and is completely illogical.

[robertpaulsen]

90. Oh, I'm following the conversation all right.

Please cite where I stated that the family saying they don't believe he'd do it equates to the BFEE murdering him. You won't find it.

In fact, on post 54, I specifically stated in regard to the doubts of family and friends: "Proof of a conspiracy? Of course not." How is it that you missed this? Are you following the conversation?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. Pay Attention.

You and others have applied numerous times now that my argument was that it would be insane to think anything suspicious may have occurred. I never stated that. I don't believe there was anything suspicious, but I haven't declared there to be absolutely no chance there was.

The only thing I declared was that if there does turn out to be any foul play, it would have nothing to do with an insanely irrational theory that the BFEE was behind it.

That is all. Bye now. :hi:

[robertpaulsen]

115. Attention is paid.

Thanks for clarifying your argument, but in doing so, you've exposed a flaw in your logic. If you are admitting that there is a POSSIBILITY that he was murdered, you cannot logically exclude the BFEE from the list of suspects. I won't argue with you how far up or down the list they should be considered, only that it is illogical to dismiss or underestimate the BFEE where murder is concerned.

That's all for me too. I understand your belief in the improbability of BFEE involvement. All I'm asking is for is a little respect for those who are exploring the possibility of it. It might not be likely, but given their track record in general, and their motive in this case specifically, it's not illogical.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

120. "POSSIBILITY that he was murdered, you cannot logically exclude the BFEE "

ROFLMAO!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh you bet I can.

[chefgirl]

140. HOW?

You can logically exclude the BFEE? How?

-chef-

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

143. By Common Sense Reasoning, Logical Deduction, Non-Delusional Thoughts, And Critical Thinking.

To give credence for a moment that because some unknown guy asked a provocative question at a presser a year and half ago the BFEE had him killed now, would be an incredible violation of my personal pride in my objective, critical, logical and intellectual reasoning capabilities and would cause me to cringe mercilessly at myself upon reflecting on such momentary delusion.

Tell me, without saying "I don't put anything past them blah blah", does it REALLY make sense to you for even a smidgen of a second that the BFEE would take the risks and effort of offing some unknown guy who no one cares about and is currently not connected to them in any shape or form whatsoever, just because a year and a half ago he asked a semi provocative question that has long been forgotten? You HONESTLY think that makes sense, sounds rational and is not of a delusional thought process for even a second?

I certainly don't. It is a completely illogical theory with no merit whatsoever in my opinion.

[chefgirl]

157. Nice try

"an incredible violation of my personal pride in my objective, critical, logical and intellectual reasoning capabilities

If you think for one minute that your "objective,critical,logical and intellectual reasoning capabilities" are anything more than your own inflated OPINION, then nothing I could possibly say to you would make any logical sense anyway.

I asked a simple question; "HOW?" How can you logically exclude the BFEE? In my OPINION, you have failed miserably in offering a satisfactory answer.

How about this question, then. How do you know that this 'unknown guy', who asked a provocative question, hasn't been asking a lot more provocative questions since that one press conference a year and a half ago, which could have led to him meeting with foul play??? Don't bother answering...the answer is, you don't.

Remembering that I have NOT taken either side in this debate, my own objective, critical, logical and intellectual reasoning capabilities tell me that anyone who is willing to disregard any possiblity, when considering something as serious as whether or not a person really committed suicide or was murdered, is entering the debate either severely lacking in those same skills OR, (and here's the kicker)is operating with an agenda.

I'm afraid you've proven yourself out, as far as I'm concerned.

-chef-

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

159. How Do You Know That If You Jump Up, You're Gonna Come Down? It's Called Common Sense.

I think you are failing to see how completely beyond absurd everyone is looking who is actually putting forth this theory as having any validity whatsoever. I remain shocked at the level of passion some are maintaining in trying to keep this premise alive as if it has any credibility. But if they want to look that foolish, I guess that is their right.

But no, I'm not going to give the preposterous theory a shred of credence for even a second, much like I wouldn't give some wild delusional theory that if I spin around enough times, I can form a wormhole and travel to some distant galaxy any credence either.

This 'theory' that the BFEE was behind his death is literally borderline delusional. It is so outside the realm of common sense, logic and rational thinking that I'm embarrassed for those putting it forth. But it is evident that nothing is going to stop them, so what can ya do. Carry on! :hi:

[petgoat]

171. Pay Attention yourself.

Your first post stated emphatically "BFEE did not do this."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

196. No Shit. I've Repeated It A Gazillion Times. Was There A Point To Your Post Or Did You Just Feel

like typing? :shrug:

Oh, and as emphatically as I could possibly muster, The BFEE did not do this. :hi:

[Moochy]

218. I've got it! (SARCASM ALERT)

OMC did it, in the lobby with a candlestick!

That's the only way you could be so sure that the BFEE did not do it! :yoiks:

:D

[omega minimo]

131. Always

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

133. Here's A Challenge For Ya, Since You Responded So Definitively: Please Cite The Strawman. Thanks.

I'll be awaiting the context from this thread to back up the premise of me presenting a strawman, of which you so wholeheartedly agreed with.

Will you provide it please? It would be greatly appreciated if you could. :hi:

[mhatrw]

105. This argument is like a Christian telling off an atheist.

Sorry, but the sane approach is to remain agnostic about things like this until you gather as many details as possible.

Yes, people commit suicides that seem suspicious. But sometimes these "suicides" are really murder.

[ooglymoogly]

213. roit roit...you clearly have the insight

[Jim Sagle]

108. Pass over that joint.

[Moochy]

125. Only if You Pass the crack pipe

:D

[Ellis Wyatt]

165. I tend to discount most of the conspiracy theories of BFEE

I mean sure, he's a scumbag and he's lied and broken some laws, but the mad evil-genius perception of the BFEE in many circles I wildly overblown in my mind.

Not that they don't have immoral motives or anything, but the thought that everything bad that happens anywhere to anyone is somehow the grand master plan of BFEE is a bit laughable.

And what really brings it home to me is that we haven't found WMD in Iraq. If the BFEE was going to commit all these tin-foil conspiracies like throwing this dude out the window or planning 9/11 or causing Johnson's stroke or blowing up levees in New Orleans, etc etc etc, they would have found WMD in Iraq.

If they have the desire and ability to commit crimes like those that have been suggested under our nose and try and get away with it, they could have EASILY and would have DEFINITELY planted WMD in Iraq, had us found them, and boom, Bush is a hero. And it would have been so easy to plant them, in the middle of a war, across the world.

Can you fathom just how differently he'd be perceived if there were actually any WMD in Iraq? And everyone in his administration or extended crime family knew it too.

Again, I'm not defending him in the least; I hate him. I just think that it's tough to believe any of these vast conspiracy theories that come up when the easiest conspiracy theory to execute and the conspiracy theory that would benefited the BFEE the most wasn't executed.

[Dr Fate]

174. I disagree- it is difficult/impossible to plant WMDs- not so difficult to push a man out a window.

I recall that Scott Ritter wrote an interesting essay or article on how it would be nearly impossible to plant WMDs- due to records and international scrutiny.

I think your comparison is invalid.

[Ellis Wyatt]

184. fair enough

I'd like to see the article.

Seems to me like it would be the easiest thing in the world for this vast BFEE conspiracy to pull off, but I'm obviously not basing it on any fact.

[Dr Fate]

188. If it was as easy as you say- it would have been an October Suprise. n/t

n/t

[Ellis Wyatt]

234. that's my point

If this BFEE can orchestrate 9/11 and blow up levees and all the other wild conspiracy theories that are dreamed up, certainly they would be able to plant WMD in Iraq.

There would have been much less chance of getting caught than all of the other conspiracy theories since it was across the world, and not on film, there would have been less chance of getting caught, since there would be less people involved and therefore less people to worry about spilling the beans, and the benefit would have been much greater than anything else his crime family supposedly did.

It just makes no logical sense for all these hairbrained conspiracy theories to occur if they didn't pull off the easiest and most beneficial of all.

[Dr Fate]

238. No- first you have to prove how easy it would be to plant WMDs.

You have yet to do that. You dont have a point- if it was easy to plant WMDs, they would have done it. According to Ritter, it's impossible to do it under international scrutiny, so they didnt.

[siligut]

230. You use the rofl guy too much.

Just sayin'

[Taxloss]

29. Google "Arkancide".

The other side makes lists as well. They're also wrong.

[Octafish]

42. Thanks for reminding me: Kelly & Kokal & Coulbeck

No where did I say I knew the answer. All I said was many people who investigate the Bush Transnational Criminal Enterprise -- Bushco, the Bush Family Evil Empire, the Octopus -- end up dead, often by suicide or what appears to be suicide.

Here are two more and a name that escapes me:

David Kelly - UK government scientist specialising in WMDs, testified to Parliament that the intel was "sexed up" to make it out that Iraq posed a threat to the UK and the USA. Found suicided in the woods under very weird circumstances.

John Kokal - US state department expert on Iraq, stated his best intel indicated Iraq posed no threat to the USA. Found dead in a window well several stories below the State Department roof.

Neil Coulbeck - English banker involved in ENRON cover-up. Suicided just before several colleagues were to be extradited for arraignment in the US for their part in the scandal. Happened about a year ago or so. The guy had just agreed to testify in the case when he got a sudden case of the dead. Anyone with the name, I'd be much obliged...

You may not remember, but the cross-dressing NAZI J Edgar Hoover used the FBI and its COINTELPRO to encourage one great American to commit suicide, Martin Luther King.

Thanks also for bringing up "Arkancide." Very interesting connections to the Bushes there, alleged by Freepers.

EDIT: Added Mr. Coulbeck's name. His testimonyh regarded ENRON, not BCCI.

[Dr Fate]

43. Silly you- those other deaths are also just big, happy coincidences too. You must be a crazy nut.

It is crazy and outrageous to consider, even for a second that there was a motive for silencing all those apparently mentally depressed, would-be whistleblowers...

;)

[Octafish]

48. When it comes to the BFEE, I'm mad...

...mad as HELL and I'm not gonna take it anymore!



Must remember to wear tin hat at all times, though.

It's not for psychic protection, but for physical.

Speaking of the odd conspiracy...



Wonder what journalistic plant and Call Man Jeff Gannon is up to these days?

[mia]

72. Looks like Gannon knows something.

The way we were

Mem'ries,
Light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were
Scattered pictures,
Of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another
For the way we were

[blogslut]

113. That's not Jeff Gannon

This is:

[Octafish]

192. Hmm. Someone told me that was Gannon.

Thanks for the heads-up, blogslut.

Must I be a lookalike. I understand this is Gannon, too.

[blogslut]

209. I have no idea

No face.

[Octafish]

222. There's the prominent Gannon earlobe.

The AP reports that's Gannon in the right photo at a pro-war rally. Guess that makes him Gannon a Bush supporter.



Still, positive ID requires fingerprints. It would be good to dust the White House and its contents for evidence.

Nights in White House Satin

The Comings and Goings of Jeff Gannon

By GARY LEUPP
CounterPunch May 21 / 22, 2005

Why aren't we hearing more about the "Jeff Gannon" (James Guckert) affair? Back in February, always the optimist I wrote, "Perhaps we are on the edge of a major scandal here," and inquiring minds have indeed dug up more dirt.

Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) and Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) got on the case, using the Freedom of Information Act to precisely chronicle, on the basis of Secret Service records, the bogus reporter and real-life prostitute's White House entries and exits. From the Secret Service material, Raw Story researcher Muriel Kane produced this listing; I've put the more interesting material in bold font:

2/25/03 11:46 - 1:25 (briefing 12:26-1:03)
2/26 9:56 - 2:17 (unusually long) (briefing 1:25-1:53)
2/27 11:49 - 1:34 (no briefing)
2/28 11:20 - 1:26 (briefing 12:35-1:10)

3/3/03 9:51 - 1:32 (unusually long) (briefing 12:21-1:00)
3/4 11:48 - 1:45 (briefing 12:46-1:20)
3/5 11:56 - 1:57 (briefing 12:21-1:00)
3/6 11:58 - 12:42 (no briefing)
3/6 9:11 pm exit - no entry (Bush press conference, 8 pm)
3/7 3:22 pm exit -- no entry (briefing 2:20-3:00)
3/10 12:47 - 3:11 (briefing 1:23-2:10)
3/11 12:25 - 1:47 (briefing at 12:38 - no end time given)
3/12 12:55 - 2:40 (briefing 1:20-1:59)
3/13 12:12 - 1:55 (briefing 12:40-1:19)
3/14 12:02 - 1:49 (briefing 12:35-1:06)
3/17 12:01 - 1:30 (no briefing)
3/18 12:09 - 1:31 (briefing 12:21-1:05)
3/19 9:38 - 3:27 (unusually long) (12:15-12:59) (Bush speech, 10 pm)
3/20 12:19 - 1:38 (briefing 12:32-1:15)
3/21 10:52 - 12:31 (briefing 2:31-3:12 ­ doesn't match)
3/24 1:02 - 2:43 (briefing 1:00-1:44)
3/25 1:45 - 3:30 (briefing 2:30-3:15)
3/28 12:34 - 3:51 (unusually long) (briefing 12:35-1:15)

4/4/03 12:18 - 1:31 (12:20-12:59)
4/9 1:48 - 3:48 (2:32-3:20)
4/10 12:14 - 2:00 (12:20-1:03)
4/11 12:24 - 1:52 (12:15-12:45) (arrives late)
4/14 12:34 - 1:46 (12:30-1:15) (arrives late)
4/21 3:33 - 4:19 (no briefing)
4/22 11:36 - 1:37 (12:30-1:14)
4/23 12:16 - 2:26 (1:17-1:55)
4/25 11:21 - 1:25 (12:19-1:00)
4/28 3:01 - 4:40 (11:08-11:23 ­ doesn't match)
4/29 11:25 - 1:10 (12:23-12:58)
4/30 11:37 - 3:14 (unusually long) (12:32-1:19)

5/6/03 11:27 - 12:56 (11:50-12:30)
5/7 11:53 - 1:29 (12:30-1:10)
5/8 1:09 - 7:10 (unusually long) (1:45-2:26)
5/9 9:49 - 11:38 (no briefing)
5/14 12:02 - 1:47 (12:35-1:15)
5/14 5:15 pm - 6:56 pm (second evening visit)
5/15 12:27 - 2:25 (1:08-1:47)
5/16 12:05 - 1:40 (12:35-1:19)
5/20 12:27 - 2:04 (12:55-1:34)
5/27 11:56 - 1:31 (12:23-1:05)
5/28 11:50 - 12:53 (12:05-12:44)
5/28 3:26 - 4:53 (second visit)
5/29 11:42 - 1:43 (12:20-1:00)

6/10/03 12:13 - 1:19 (12:33-1:12)
6/17 12:29 - 1:41 (12:32-1:11)
6/18 12:16 - 1:42 (12:50-1:34)
6/22 3:32 - 4:49 (no briefing)
6/23 1:41 - 2:21 (no briefing)
6/25 12:16 - 1:01 (12:30-12:55)
6/26 11:32 - 12:35 (11:45-12:24)

7/1/03 11:25 - 1:42 (12:50-1:26)
7/2 11:50 - 1:20 (12:35-1:12)
7/3 3:04 - 4:16 (Condi Rice briefing, 3:40-4:10)
7/14 11:33 - 1:32 (Ari's goodbye party) (12:03-12:56)
7/15 12:15 (no exit) (12:38-1:23)
7/16 12:26 - 2:05 (12:50-1:20)
7/17 4:43 - 6:13 (12:36-1:17 ­ doesn't match)
7/22 12:23 - 1:53 (12:58-1:35)
7/23 12:21 - 2:23 (1:17-2:07)
7/25 2:08 - 3:30 (2:39-3:15)
7/27 3:08 - 5:24 (no briefing)
7/28 12:53 - 2:04 (briefing 10:12-10:23 ­ doesn't match)
7/30 12:13 - 12:45 (no briefing) (Bush press conference earlier than that)

8/1/03 12:18 (no exit) (12:24-12:54)
8/1 12:39 - 1:20 (two sets of times if put together seem to match the briefing)

9/2/03 12:37 (A4 HC Entry Lane, no exit) (12:42-1:23)
9/3 12:10 - 1:18 (12:30-1:10)
9/10 12:17 - 1:32 (12:49-1:23)
9/16 12:23 - 1:59 (1:00-1:39)
9/17 12:12 - 1:55 (1:00-1:41)
9/22 1:54 - 3:06 (no briefing) (Bush meets with Iraqis, remarks end 4:35)
9/25 12:49 - 1:53 (12:48-1:35)
9/26 12:09 - 2:24 (12:36-1:15)
9/29 12:09 - 1:10 (12:18-1:03)

10/1/03 11:51 - 1:37 (12:44-1:30)
10/2 11:52 (no exit) (12:47-1:26)
10/6 12:58, 6:10 (no exit; checks in twice but doesn't check out)
10/7 12:46 - 2:03 (12:58-1:46)
10/8 12:10 - 1:27 (12:16-12:42)
10/14 12:22 (no exit) (12:40-1:14)
10/27 12:32 - 1:33 (12:39-1:15)
10/28 10:54 - 12:22 (Bush press conference 11:15-12:03)
10/29 12:20 - 1:08 (12:20-12:57)

11/6/03 12:09 - 1:09 (12:35-1:04)
11/12 12:09 - 1:58 (1:10-1:47)
11/14 12:54 - 2:07 (1:36-2:00)
11/21 5:25 - 6:49 (no briefing)
11/24 8:49 - 9:43 (no briefing)

12/2/03 2:08 - 3:29 (no briefing)
12/3 12:03 - 1:11 (12:32-1:06)
12/7 3:25 (no exit - entry via A4 HC Entry Lane) (no briefing)
12/9 12:33 - 1:45 (12:55-1:21)
12/10 12:05 - 1:23 (12:35-1:15)
12/12 11:51 - 1:35 (12:15-12:52)
12/15 10:45 - 12:42 (Bush press conference 11:15-12:03)
12/18 12:44 - 2:28 (2:05-2:43)
12/19 12:21 - 12:56 (B4 Entry Lane 2) (12:30-12:50)
12/19 1:36 - 2:13 (second visit)
12/22 12:15 - 1:23 (12:28-1:01)

1/14/04 12:30 - 1:33 (12:41-1:15)
1/16 12:08 - 12:48 (12:11-12:44)
1/23 11:52 - 1:12 (12:33-1:06)
1/28 11:53 - 1:26 (12:50-1:20)
1/30 12:30 - 1:23 (12:37-1:09)

2/2/04 12:32 - 1:35 (12:48-1:28)
2/3 12:44 - 1:55 (12:54-1:20)
2/4 11:50 - 1:38 (12:56-1:36)
2/6 11:58 - 1:44 (Bush announcement 1:32-37)
2/10 11:50 - 1:55 (12:53-1:38)
2/11 11:57 - 1:09 (12:30-1:02)
2/13 12:07 - 1:08 (12:30-1:02)
2/18 12:04 - 1:29 (12:36-1:08)
2/19 12:05 - 1:30 (12:37-1:14)
2/20 12:32 - 1:29 (12:33-1:03)
2/23 12:55 - 1:17 (12:43-1:10) (arrives late)
2/24 12:06 - 1:52 (1:00-1:36)
2/27 1:55 - 3:39 (2:18-2:48)

3/1/04 12:50 - 2:04 (1:20-2:00)
3/2 12:29 - 1:23 (12:46-1:14)
3/9 12:40 - 1:49 (1:03-1:37)
3/12 12:54 - 1:00 (unusually short) (no briefing)
3/16 12:43 - 1:52 (1:10-1:46)
3/17 12:18 - 1:56 (1:26-1:50)
3/22 12:03 - 2:10 (1:24-2:04)
3/23 12:03 - 1:34 (12:47-1:10)
3/24 12:17 - 2:03 (1:10-2:02)
3/30 exit only, 12:04 (no briefing)
3/30 4:22 - 4:55 (no briefing)

4/1/04 12:42 - 1:57 (1:25-1:53)
4/13 9:42 - 10:29 (no briefing) (Bush speaks to reporters on the WH lawn)
4/13 6:59 pm - 9:49 pm (Bush press conference)
4/16 10:51 - 3:08 (2:41-3:09) (Bush/Blair press conference)
4/21 12:14 - 1:00 (12:31-1:00)
4/27 12:10 (no exit, entry via A4 HC Entry Lane instead of Entry Lane 2) (12:27- 12:59)
4/28 12:26 - 1:47 (1:20-1:47)
4/29 11:10 no exit (well before briefing) (Bush and Cheney testify to 9/11 commission)
4/29 2:15 - 2:57 (2:23-2:56)
4/30 1:24 - 2:47 (2:22-2:45)

5/5/04 12:02 - 2:25 (1:38-2:16) (arrives unusually early)
5/6 12:01 - 3:35 (12:20-12:54) (stays unusually late)
5/10 1:22 - 2:50 (2:02-2:33)
5/12 11:56 - 1:03 (12:34-12:55)
5/24 no entry, exit logged twice, 2:04:43 and 2:04:51 (1:14-1:46)
5/26 12:09 - 1:51 (1:15-1:51)
5/28 2:17 - no exit (3:02-3:34)

6/1/04 9:20 - 12:03 (Condi Rice briefing, 9:45)
6/3 9:02 - 10:32 (no briefing)
6/14 10:02 - 11:45 (no briefing)
6/15 11:03 - no exit (2:25-2:52) (there well before briefing)
6/15 5:19 - 6:38 (B4 Exit Lane instead of usual A4 Exit Reader) (after briefing)
(Bush and Karzai in Press Availability)
6/16 2:50 - 4:34 (no briefing)
6/17 11:57 - 1:25 (12:47-1:20)
6/21 9:27 - 10:03 (no briefing)
6/22 12:13 - 5:04 (unusually long) (Al Gonzales briefing, 3:12-4:55)
6/24 1:27 - 2:13 (Condi Rice briefing, 1:51-2:03)
6/30 12:21 - 1:55 (1:15-1:55)

7/1/04 12:22 - 1:36 (1:01-1:37)
7/2 9:43 - 11:53 (no briefing)
7/6 12:15 - 12:58 (12:33-12:48)
7/8 1:07 - 2:21 (1:53-2:22)
7/15 12:48 - 1:48 (12:54-1:23)
7/19 1:04 - 2:24 (1:52-2:22)
7/21 12:22 - 2:02 (1:10-1:40)
7/22 10:11 - 10:47 (no briefing)
7/29 6:03 - 6:21 (no briefing)

8/2/04 10:59 - 1:47 (1:02-1:39) (there 2 hours early)
8/9 12:07 - 1:03 (12:31-12:59)
8/17 11:06 - 12:31 (no briefing)
8/27 9:10 - 9:37 (no briefing)

9/10/04 11:19 - 12:55 (no briefing)
9/15 12:17 - 1:56 (1:11-1:45)
9/22 11:57 - 12:34 (no briefing)
9/23 11:19 - 1:14 (Bush press conference with Allawi)

11/2/04 1:31 - 2:20 (no briefing) (Election Day)
11/4 9:16 - 12:11 (Bush press conference 11:17-11:57)
11/8 11:50 - 1:08 (12:20-12:52)
11/10 12:35 - 12:58 (12:26-12:45) (arrives late)
11/12 10:57 -- no exit (Bush press conference with Blair)
11/16 12:26 - 1:51 (12:20-1:32) (arrives late)
11/17 12:07 - 2:14 (12:38-1:10)
11/29 12:23 - 1:49 (12:56-1:32)

12/6/04 12:37 - 1:59 (1:03-1:36)
12/8 12:07 - 1:41 (1:05-1:39)
12/10 12:32 - 1:51 (1:06-1:32)
12/13 12:18 - 1:36 (12:50-1:18)
12/14 12:46 - 1:53 (12:48-1:23)
12/17 12:16 - 1:48 (12:47-1:14)
12/20 10:05 - 11:49 (Bush press conference, 10:32-11:25)
12/21 12:00 - 2:04 (12:35-1:10)
12/22 12:04 - 1:08 (no briefing)
12/23 12:31 - 1:26 (no briefing)

1/18/05 12:05 - 1:36 (12:28-12:57)
1/19 12:26 - 1:38 (12:48-1:19)
1/25 12:19 - 1:04 (12:23-12:53)
1/26 9:54 - 10:56 (Bush press conference, 10:00-10:47)
1/31 12:27 - 1:24 (12:45-1:16)

2/1/05 12:11 no exit (12:18-12:47)
2/7 12:10 - 3:00 (1:45-1:06)

SNIP...

Okay, maybe there's no scandal here. Lots of people, mostly tourists, visit the White House. But it does seem odd that Gannon was there at least 32 times on days when there were no briefings, or returned later in the day to the presidential mansion after a briefing. Seems he'd spend about an hour or hour and a half in the White House on these occasions. Or he'd be there for an hour or hour and a half before or after the briefings. I suppose that it could be shown he was there to consult with someone about what sort of questions he might raise in the next briefing, that could produce a small scandal. But the media hasn't really taken on the president's manipulation of reporters to date and protested and exposed it effectively.

The records also show days when Gannon checked in but never properly checked out, beginning in July 2003 or five months after he started his White House journalistic activities. This doesn't necessarily cry out "Scandal!" since lots of people have slept over at the Bush White House. But usually they're big fundraisers or family members. For someone like Gannon to be there, apparently sleeping over, on twelve different nights seems curious. Surely he had his own lodgings nearby. But after all, in his "reporter" capacity he was a friend of the administration and like Jacko says, friends often let friends sleep over. Dowbenko indicates that the president was in his house on all these occasions, but I imagine Laura and the Secret Service people were there too. Of course it is a big house, room for everybody and a degree of privacy even in these terror-haunted, well-monitored times.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp05212005.html

We live in interesting times, blogslut.

[Flabbergasted]

206. What is the picture on the bottom?

[Octafish]

223. Thought it was Jeff Gannon. Others disagree.

Here are a couple photos that are interesting. Some say it's also Gannon whom Bush hugs:



White House sleepover backgrounder:

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp05212005.html

[Mr Rabble]

50. Thank you Octa. Remember this:

Even if not one single BFEE opponent has in fact been "suicided", the reign of terror of the BFEE is responsible for civilian deaths in excess of 1,000,000 over the last 20 years. They have killed without remorse, and done so as a simple matter of course. Period.

To think that the BFEE would not be involved in the murder of a critic is staggeringly naive.

While I dont think that there is a BFEE link to every dissident "suicide", I have seen far too many connections to think that this is something they would not engage in.

[Octafish]

221. You're welcome, emperor72. Thank you!

Human life has no meaning to them, apart from their own.

At best, members of the BFEE are sociopathic mass-murderers.

For those new to the subject: Please consider the first Gulf War and when George Herbert Walker Bush ordered the U.S. armed forces to fire on a fleeing army of defenseless conscripts.

The Massacre of Withdrawing Soldiers on "The Highway of Death"

by Joyce Chediac

I want to give testimony on what are called the "highways of death." These are the two Kuwaiti roadways, littered with remains of 2,000 mangled Iraqi military vehicles, and the charred and dismembered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, who were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions.

U.S. planes trapped the long convoys by disabling vehicles in the front, and at the rear, and then pounded the resulting traffic jams for hours. "It was like shooting fish in a barrel," said one U.S. pilot. The horror is still there to see.

On the inland highway to Basra is mile after mile of burned, smashed, shattered vehicles of every description - tanks, armored cars, trucks, autos, fire trucks, according to the March 18, 1991, Time magazine. On the sixty miles of coastal highway, Iraqi military units sit in gruesome repose, scorched skeletons of vehicles and men alike, black and awful under the sun, says the Los Angeles Times of March 11, 1991. While 450 people survived the inland road bombing to surrender, this was not the case with the 60 miles of the coastal road. There for 60 miles every vehicle was strafed or bombed, every windshield is shattered, every tank is burned, every truck is riddled with shell fragments. No survivors are known or likely. The cabs of trucks were bombed so much that they were pushed into the ground, and it's impossible to see if they contain drivers or not. Windshields were melted away, and huge tanks were reduced to shrapnel.

"Even in Vietnam I didn't see anything like this. It's pathetic," said Major Bob Nugent, an Army intelligence officer. This one-sided carnage, this racist mass murder of Arab people, occurred while White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater promised that the U.S. and its coalition partners would not attack Iraqi forces leaving Kuwait. This is surely one of the most heinous war crimes in contemporary history.

The Iraqi troops were not being driven out of Kuwait by U.S. troops as the Bush administration maintains. They were not retreating in order to regroup and fight again. In fact, they were withdrawing, they were going home, responding to orders issued by Baghdad, announcing that it was complying with Resolution 660 and leaving Kuwait. At 5:35 p.m. (Eastern standard Time) Baghdad radio announced that Iraq's Foreign Minister had accepted the Soviet cease-fire proposal and had issued the order for all Iraqi troops to withdraw to postions held before August 2, 1990 in compliance with UN Resolution 660. President Bush responded immediately from the White House saying (through spokesman Marlin Fitzwater) that "there was no evidence to suggest the Iraqi army is withdrawing. In fact, Iraqi units are continuing to fight. . . We continue to prosecute the war." On the next day, February 26, 1991, Saddam Hussein announced on Baghdad radio that Iraqi troops had, indeed, begun to withdraw from Kuwait and that the withdrawal would be complete that day. Again, Bush reacted, calling Hussein's announcement "an outrage" and "a cruel hoax."

CONTINUED...

http://radioislam.org/historia/zionism/hwy_death.html

More on the "Highway of Death":

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-593-3127/conflict_war/gulf_war/clip14

Thanks for giving a damn, emperor72. Thanks also for your understanding.

[thingfisher]

58. How about Danny Casolaro?

[Taxloss]

67. How about Vince Foster? n/t

[Dr Fate]

81. What about it? It was fully investigated and discussed in the media.

Your implication is like saying that Republicans complain about the media too, so therefore the media cant be pro-war or pro-Bush.

Just because Republicans and the media lied about Clinton does not mean that we should not question a group (Bushco) who actually has a record of revenge & violence.

[Taxloss]

85. Who's stopping you questioning?

It's interesting that out of all the "something fishy here" responses on this thread, it's only Operation Mind Crime who gets swarmed, flamed and defamed. It's like a bunch of fundies talking about God's Wrath - woe betide the poster who points out that shit happens.

[Dr Fate]

94. Sorry- some folks dont like being accused of insanity or lacking common sense for being curious.

I'm sorry that poor old OMC has to take such a defaming after he was so civil and polite with his rolling laughing man icon and "tin foil hat" insults.

Anyway- you may be right- it could very well be yet another coincidence in a long line of coincidences and not a conspiracy at all-

My main problem is saying that anyone who is initially suspicious lacks logic, common sense or sanity. That is why I responded with the tounge and cheek "wacky coincidence theorist" posts as mirror responses.

[Taxloss]

96. Some are initially suspicious, others are

happy to state with absolute total certainty that Bush did it without much evidence to that effect. I suspect OMC was directing his mockery at the latter group. Because their thinking is pretty laughable.

[Dr Fate]

110. Fair enough- we disagree- I dont find it laughable at all- I see it as a valid opinion.

I would not laugh at anyone who thinks Bushco might be capable of something like this.

[tomp]

152. no, operationmindcrime is out of his freaking mind.

he only thinks he is being logical.

[mhatrw]

109. You mean the guy they killed to warn the Clintons to play ball? n/t

[elehhhhna]

183. CLiff Baxter? (Enron)

[librechik]

137. and of course, best advertisement for rat shot, Cliff Baxter

man, there is a VAST panorama of crimes to cover up with the BFEE.

[Octafish]

226. Even Right Wing pundits were shocked at Baxter's death.

While I disagree with the guy's politics, his analysis brings up some important points:

The Missing Witness, Cliff Baxter

"I'm a businessman. Why do I need a bodyguard?"

By Reed Irvine | February 13, 2002

EXCERPT...

That key witness is J. Cliff Baxter, who was probably shown the door because he had complained to Chairman Ken Lay about one of the 2,800 partnerships that Enron created to conceal its debts, inflate its profits and siphon off millions of dollars for some of the investors and a few of its own executives. Baxter specifically criticized the LJM2 partnership. On Feb. 12, the Wall Street Journal reported the discovery of a document that shows that Ken Lay was involved in approving some of the transactions of LJM2 even though both he and his wife had claimed that he was not fully informed about the operations of the partnerships.

SNIP...

If the gun had been identified by a family member as one that belonged to Baxter; if he owned .38 rat-shot ammunition, the type that killed him; and if his fingerprints had been found on the gun and the spent casing, that would be pretty good evidence that homicide could be ruled out. In addition, if the note was written in handwriting that qualified experts have found to be Baxter's, and if it explains to his family why he decided to kill himself, that would help rule out homicide. If his fingerprints were on the note, that would wrap up the case for suicide. The failure of the police to report the discovery of such evidence points in the opposite direction.

Some news stories have suggested that Baxter was distraught, but that is not what his family says, according to a sources close to them. He was trading in his 72-foot yacht for a larger one. He is said to have completed the transaction the day before he died. The New York Times reported that a friend had called Baxter that same day to compliment him for having been an Enron whistleblower. The friend revealed that Baxter had said, in an undisclosed context, "I'm a businessman. Why do I need a bodyguard?"

CONTINUED...

http://www.aim.org/aim_column/A547_0_3_0_C/

More background on ratshot and Mr. Baxter's "suicide":

http://www.apfn.org/enron/baxter.htm

[thingfisher]

55. Thanks Octafish!

Whenever a story like this makes the news, there are the inevitable canards launched warning of the tine foil hatters coming out of the wood work.
However, as you have so pointedly observed such stories are nothing unusual when related to the BFFE! After all it is what they are all ablut - concealing the truth about themselves at all costs, and they have the means to do it!

People relly have a hard time believing that these people are as evil and ruthless as their deed amply indicate. Eyebrows should go way up on this.

[Doctor_J]

77. Thre used to be a bushbodycount.com, that listed literally

hundreds of people who crossed the BFEE and then died suspiciously. I don't know what happened to that site.

[mod mom]

95. Thanks Octafish and what about Ray Lemme?

[WilliamPitt]

114. Yo Fish, please read.

I'm not saying anything whatsoever about you, your work, or the merits of your ideas with the following thoughts. Yours are always must-read posts as far as I am concerned, and I have never once failed to learn from what you put up here. You're a teacher here, for me and many others, and that is something I deeply honor and appreciate.

With that said, please see:

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

That link is the Snopes beat-down of the so-called "Clinton Body Count." I'm sure you've heard of it. The link, and the Snopes evisceration within, is well worth reading.

The "Body Count" is, according to the right-wing "tinfoilers," a comprehensive list of all the people Bill and his nefarious, bloodthirsty crew supposedly had whacked over the years. The list of "victims" and the descriptions of how the Clintons had them disposed of is included there.

None of it is correct in any way, shape or form. None of these people on this list were offed by Clinton or anyone attached. File those last two sentences under "D" for "Duh."

But, as with the unfortunate death under discussion in this thread, there are the thoughts and suspicions and possibilities that lead to speculation, salted as ever with political/social/moral hatred of the powerful individual/combine in question.

I'm not necessarily discounting the theories or suspicions, because I know literally and absolutely nothing of the deceased life, situation or possible troubles beyond what I've read in this thread. So I can say nothing difinitive at all.

But that "Body Count" above lists a whole bunch of suicides, including at least one person who jumped from a high place to their death. The compilers of that list, inspired by their hatred of Clinton and desire to derail his administration, went out of their way to describe all the suicides listed as "suspicious.

They weren't, as the facts either immediately or eventually revealed. Sometimes, sadly, people kill themselves, and do so for emotional, mental, physical, financial and/or personal reasons we can't possibly understand. I have had friends who have tried and a cousin who unfortunately succeeded.

My hero/mojo/Dashboard Jesus, Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, took his life with a gunshot to the head just about a year ago, leaving a note behind that was still rolled into the typewriter he sat in front of when he pulled the trigger. The last word of the note read, "Relax, this won't hurt." It didn't entirely make sense then, and still doesn't make sense now...but at the time, because he had started really beating on the Bush administration, a number of people tried to do the speculation-to-fact alchemy required to make his suicide suspicious.

It wasn't, and isn't. I spent a good amount of time researching the event. His age, health and (or so he thought) declining ability to write left him in a place where the gun was the best option. According to Ralph Steadman, HST always kept suicide in his hip pocket as a viable option, and told him once that he'd be a mess if he didn't know that he could kill himself at any time. HST started planning his funeral and memorial nearly 30 years before he died.

So it makes sense in a way, and wasn't suspicious. I just needed the whole story.

And maybe this one isn't either. Maybe, maybe, is all I'm saying. I'd hate if we, someday, had a list of "suspicious" deaths, like the body count above, that came to be known as nothing more than an embarrassing, fact-bereft monument to our justified paranoia and disgust for what these people have done.

That's it. Thanks.

[EFerrari]

150. Thing is, Hunter wasn't planning to open an office or buy a new home.

Depressed people don't plan things, especially big things like opening a law office.

I like to think that HST made his own choice. This thing sounds different. :shrug:

[H2O Man]

170. Good points.

I do not know much about Hunter. But my impression was that he was always somewhat self-destructive. Without going into details about any of the other cases. I can say that Abbie Hoffman -- despite any reputation from the corporate media -- was a pretty strong and athletic guy. At the time of his death, he was very actively investigating the role of Bush the Elder in the Iran-Contra scandals. I was told that he had called a friend within 24 hours of his death, and was very up-beat about some information he had acquired. I've never thought that there was even the slightest chance that he willingly took his own life.

[EFerrari]

180. Merry War on Christmas, H20 Man. I don't have special knowledge

but in retro the family or circle of friends can usually id a problem.

My poor sister in law had been laid off. It wasn't apparent to anyone until after the fact how immutable that seemed to her.

From my own experience with depression, planning big projects has a physical heft to it. You don't take it on because it's too damn heavy.

And did you notice how this man is, posthumously and by nonpros, being tarred with BiPolar Disorder?

The effort to smear him stinks all by itself, imho.

/ack, spelling

[H2O Man]

191. It is something

that spans a wide range of behaviors. In many cases, family and friends have clues; in others, no one has any idea.

I haven't read much on this particular case yet. But I think that a lot of the ads for medications fool people. They give "check lists" to make people think they are "not normal" because they feel life. Too many people have become convinced that the normal range of moods that human beings experience rate as bipolar disorders. Unless there is some evidence from a qualified physician, I'd hesitate to believe anything I did read. I agree that people get smeared this way. It's sad.

[EFerrari]

193. It's sad and simple.

We need good mental health care.

One of my friends founded The Mental Health Sanctuary on the net. She was tireless -- and when she went into crisis, her clinic told her not to bother coming in until she was "running in traffic".

Effectively, she was denied treatment.

Surely we can do better than that. :(

[foo_bar]

181. there's an interesting essay on this subject

I've never thought that there was even the slightest chance that he willingly took his own life.

Well, listen the fuck up, everybody. Especially those of you from the J-School who shared this network with Gary and me and scores of others: Society doesn’t allow us to talk about suicide. Fuck society. I’m going to talk about it now.
(...)
Yes, motherfuckers, I know something about suicide. I have thought about it every day since I was 23 years old, when I began to see my pal Abbie slip into his depths. Twenty-one years is a long time to decide each day not to kill myself. I have made the decision thousands of times. So far, the coin has not once flipped tails.
(...)
In 1989, my mentor Abbie Hoffman, knowledgeable in pharmacology, downed 120 phenobarbitols with a glass of Glen Livet, a dosage that would stop the beating heart of any man or woman. A lot of people still don’t believe it. That Abbie would kill himself fucks with their views of “reality.” But I tell you: He did it! He left a fucking note! Just because the note was so private and personal that you’ve never seen it (and probably never will) can’t be the pretext to disbelieve. Believe it, kids. Abbie, like Gary, dedicated his life to telling the truth. That is the common factor in every fallen comrade I have known who made that final choice: to be a truth-seeker and truth-teller and to love intensely among a society of liars and deceivers unworthy of our love.
(...)
Of the two journalists I know who are standing at the ledge today, contemplating the leap into the abyss, they still have their homes (although one is afraid to be alone there, an indication of being close to committing the act). They still have the money to get them to next month’s rent, but the money is running out. And so the hourglass is emptying, the sand is pouring down. They talk each other down off the ledge because nobody else will allow them to speak of the unspeakable act that awaits them, that awaited Gary and so many other truth-tellers.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2004/12/15/184725/08

This makes a bit more sense than the BFEE force-feeding him barbiturates and scotch, but maybe Abbie's friends were part of the sinister plot (or perhaps Giordano wasn't really his "pal", but was paid by the BFEE to cover up the deaths of Webb and Hoffman). I never met Abbie, but I know some of Andrew's friends, and I haven't found much reason to believe this was a "hit" decades after Abbie was a household name, but perhaps I'm missing the big picture.

[petgoat]

173. Hunter Thompson apparently chose to check out when the

fight he'd been training for all his life was just starting.

He chose very inconsiderately to make a mess of the kitchen so his
family's discovery of him would be a surprise.

He could have left a note on the refrigerator and hiked up the hill a
bit and shot himself in the snow.

I still find a number of aspects of his case puzzling, though there's
no real evidence of foul play.

[EFerrari]

182. Hi there, petgoat.

He must have been hurting. And in a way, we knew he would go his own way.

[petgoat]

187. Damned inconsiderate to blow your brains all over the kitchen

when you could go out on the hill and do it in the snow.

[EFerrari]

190. Yep. When my sister in law checked out in her mother's car

they had it cleaned and sold it.

:shrug:

[Octafish]

220. Thanks, Will. Here's the deal...

Your observations and kind words are much appreciated. And coming from you, they mean a lot.

You, unlike me and most of the folks on DU, are brave enough to put your name on every thing that you write. My position requires anonymity. I would lose my job and benefits, including health insurance. That is a price I cannot, at present, make my family pay. If I ever hit the lottery...

Regarding the BFEE and the Bush Body Count referenced on this thread: I don't recall mentioning anywhere that members of the BFEE were behind the tragedy in California or writing that events in Arkansas were tied to Big Dog and his people.

I did write in Response 22 above: "Why are you (OMC) so certain you know what happened, let alone know that the 'BFEE did not do this'?" The poster implied that someone had made out that the Bush Crime Family was behind Mr. Sanford's death. It is one of several threads and responses started since then that imply DUers falsely assume the BFEE was behind the tragedy.

Please know that I do not know who was responsible. I do know know enough of the circumstances to make an educated guess that the death is very suspicious. And, were I assigned to investigate the case, I would follow all possible leads. I also would attempt to analyze the facts from as many perspectives as possible, from premeditated murder to homicide to suicide to accidental death.

Remember the late, great DUer NOSTAMJ? He put his name on his work, including a play he authored that focused on the Spawn of Barbara J. He fell ill to a very rare disease. Someone in my own family has suddenly fallen ill to a very rare disease (a different one from what claimed Mr. Matson). We are doing our best to restore my loved one's health.

I don't know if there's a coincidence. I don't believe there is. But, there could be. Who knows?

Here's what I do believe: I do not trust certain people who "serve" in our government. I did not trust them when they swore Saddam Hussein had WMDs ready to launch against the USA. I did not trust them to account for the missing trillion-plus dollars from the Pentagon. I did not trust them when they stole the election of 2000. I did not trust them when they swore that Saddam Hussein was ready to take over the Saudi oil fields in 1990. I did not trust them when they looted the S&Ls in the late 80s and early 90s. I did not trust them when they sold weapons to the Ayatollah's Iran and Saddam's Iraq in the 1980s. I did not trust them when they swore the CIA was not facilitating the importation of addictive drugs. I did not trust them when they sold weapons to the Shah of Iran and Ferdinand Marcos in the 70s. I did not trust them when they enlisted the Mafia to kill Fidel Castro. And I have not trusted them for the many, many dozens more examples of where these government "leaders" have acted to benefit the most authoritarian and gangster elements of power, as well as themselves. In fact, I have not trusted them since 22 November 1963.

Here's what I do know: Connecting those dates and times is one family name. Bush.

[oasis]

148. Thanks Octafish. "And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set ye free".

:thumbsup:

[Felinity]

149. Any notes?

It seems to me that an educated person, especially an attorney or journalist, would be loathe to leave this world without an explanation. People who are accustomed to writing out their thoughts are going to write their last ones down.


No note, no suicide in my book.

Edit to add, from WilliamPitt above:

"My hero/mojo/Dashboard Jesus, Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, took his life with a gunshot to the head just about a year ago, leaving a note behind that was still rolled into the typewriter he sat in front of when he pulled the trigger. The last word of the note read, 'Relax, this won't hurt.'"

[petgoat]

175. How do you know who typed a typed note or when?

A former business partner once typed me an unsigned note of some legal import on my machine.

At the time I considered it evidence of his spontaneous personality.

Later, realizing that there was no way I could prove that he, and not I, had typed that
note, I came to suspect there was nothing spontaneous about it.

[Dr Fate]

26. I think it is a vailid theory to assume he was indeed murdered. I'm no coincidence theorist.

He lied us into a war that resulted in the deaths of thousands- so why is it outrageous to think that offing an enemy who is investigating that event might also be a casualty?

At some point, the idea that everything is just a big, happy coincidence gets to be even more ridiculous than everything being a conspiracy.

[Taxloss]

27. What's "coincidental" about this death?

People do die. People also commit suicide. I don't see the huge coincidence about this.

[Dr Fate]

31. One minute he's investigating Bush, the next he is jumping out of windows to painful, grisly death.

No need for any further discussion, questions or discerning a motiviation for a possible murder- all just a big, happy coincidence.

[Taxloss]

32. Hundreds of others do what he does.

Will they get them all as well? An empty chair in the press room isn't a coincidence - an empty press room is a coincidence.

I'm sure the police are investigating this death as fully as they would any other death. Or are they in on it? And the hotel staff?

[Dr Fate]

36. When some Pro-Bush or anti-DEM reporters fall out of windows, you will have a stronger point.

I dont know of "hundreds of other" reporters who happen to be investigating Bush who die in suicides- (although that fact would help my position) ;)

It could very well be a happy coincidence as we would like to believe- or it could be a murder- it seems that on the surface there could have been a motive to silence this guy or to send a message.

[Taxloss]

37. There's not many of them about nowadays. n/t

[Dr Fate]

38. LOL! Yes-They are all so "neutral" and "objective" now. n/t

n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. Not with the same high, but not too high profile.

[Taxloss]

70. Well, there's a bar that can be set anywhere.

"Obscure enough for his death to make little difference, yet known enough for his death to get left-wing message-board posters who maybe watched The Parallax View one too many times to cry foul."

[roody]

106. Usually people are unhappy when they commit suicide.

[Joe Chi Minh]

158. And why have every bone in your body smashed when it would be

so much quicker and easier to but a pistol (easy to obtain over there, I believe) to your head, or take sleeping tablets, or use your car exhaust. Practically anything would be preferable to jumping from the top of a high building.

[Garbo 2004]

45. Amy evidence that Sanford was investigating Bush? He asked a question

at a WH press conference in 2005. Then sued the owner of the radio station where he had a program because the owner said Sanford wasn't authorized to represent the station as a reporter. Sanford was a practicing attorney in CA.

Sanford was no Seymour Hersh, who by the way is still with us along with a number of journalists who have investigated and have been critical of the Bush Administration.

[Dr Fate]

47. I admit, it could be a coincidence.

Perhaps any notion that he was silenced, or murdered to send a message to others who dig into the Plame matter is as silly as some say.

I dont know what undisclosed interviews or info this attorney/ journalist may have had access to- for all I know he was working on a investigative piece- or not. You are correct to point out that we dont have all the facts yet.

My main point is that it is just as silly, to me, to assume that every time someone who crosses Bush kills himself it "just happens" or is a coincidence.

"Suicides" in the political context should always be scrutinized-and they seem to be happening a lot over the past few years.

I disagree with starting from the assumption that there is "nothing to see here"- but I will agree that it could be the case. Or not.

[John Q. Citizen]

49. What his friends and family have to say indicates that the person wasn't

likely a suicide.

I don't jump to the conclusion that is was the bush crime family, it could have been a pissed off spouse, an angry client, any number of people who didn't like him or were threatened by his activism.

My dad used to be a crime reporter in Long Beach, back in the early sixties. He told me that one day some detectives were bragging to him about the low unsolved murder rate in Long Beach.

My dad replied, "Yeah, but you have one of the highest unsolved suicide rates."

His point was, he told me, that the cops would bend over back wards to classify deaths as suicides, just to clear them off the books and to promote their "solved" homicide rate.

I could be wrong, but I bet we will hear more about this story.

[shance]

79. My God. Starting jumping to conclusions for a change.

How many more people have to be threatened, harmed and murdered by way of the Bush/Neocon connections?

How can this any longer be denied? Who benefits if we turn our head and deny what is being done to our best and our brightest?

Who loses if we deny and continue to turn our heads to what is being done?

Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out if we deny the realities, they ARENT GOING AWAY?


Seriously.

How many more good people are we going to allow to be killed while cowards deny the reality in front of them?

How many MORE OF OUR BEST LEADERS will be killed and their justice totally ignored and silenced?

John and Robert
Martin
Malcom
Paul Wellstone
and others........


It makes me ashamed to be an American that there is such cowardice and denial of the harm being brought on innocent people and their families.

Speak up and stop allowing fear to dictate your actions.

[John Q. Citizen]

97. I can see why the

bush crime family might want to take out the 5 people you mentioned.

I'm not convinced they would feel the need to take out Paul Sanborn, though.

Without more information, i think I would start looking a little more locally for a suspect. There are other people besides the bush crime family who commit murders, after all, and Paul Sanborn was a local activist as well as an attorney.

And it might not be political at all, but personal.

I think it appears suspicious, from the info available in the one article.

Are you saying that you think the bush crime family did it?

[frylock]

52. case closed!

Thanks for clearing it all up.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. No Problem! If You Need Any Future Assistance With Commone Sense Logic Let Me Know!

:toast:

[Dr Fate]

56. His friends & family dont think the explanation for his bizzare fall is "Common sense logic"at all.

In fact those apparently nutty Oliver Stone buffs dont believe the offical report that it was suicide either.

I dont see any thing particularly logical about your position on this- you merely assumed the initial police conclusion is correct and that anyone who has questions is not- while ignoring the concerns & questions of those closest to him.

Here are some parts of the article that your "logic" and "common sense" must have missed:

Friends and associates expressed disbelief at the news of Sanford's death and that it was ruled a suicide, saying Sanford seemed happy and had made many plans for this week and in coming months. Mills said he and Sanford recently decided to open a shared law office to serve Monterey and Santa Cruz counties, something Sanford was looking forward to doing.

snip

"I just don't know what happened since Thursday. There was nothing on the horizon there to know this was going to happen," Mills said. "We were going to get together this week."

Mills said he had spoken to Sanford's wife, Paula, and that she also was in shock. He said Sanford, a father of two, was a devoted family man.

"This is a horrible thing for his family. He would never have intentionally put his family through that trauma. Something's not right, it doesn't make sense."

[Moochy]

63. But they are all crazy moonbats

according to his Divine Pomposity, OMC.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Please Stop Your False Accusations. While You're At It Provide A Statement From ANY Of The Family

that states they believe it was some huge conspiracy on the part of the BFEE because he had asked a question about Plame once upon a long time ago.

I beg you, please link to me the article in which they express that insanity.

[Moochy]

69. Wow you intentionally misintrepret every post

"This is a horrible thing for his family. He would never have intentionally put his family through that trauma. Something's not right, it doesn't make sense."

You conflate every single point in every single debate.

1) BFEE did it ( what you claim all the tinfoilers are claiming out-right)
vs
2) suspicion of foul play

Is there a difference? You seem to have ruled out the second possibility.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

86. What A Joke! No Misinterpretation Whatsoever, From Me Anyway.

My joking sentiment to begin with was that there would be some extremists who claimed that the BFEE did it. I have not swayed from nor enhanced that argument. Now it is you that is trying to distort that and misrepresent that notion as if I was saying there is no way that any foul play occurred. I NEVER stated such a thing, so to say I did is misinterpretation at its friggin finest.

Maybe he had a personal enemy and maybe there was foul play. Who knows. The cops don't think so at this time and have ruled it a suicide, but who knows.

What I do know, is that any claims that BFEE had a hand in this due to his asking a question a long time ago is insane and absurd. That's my argument from the get go, so refrain from twisting it into an argument that didn't exist: That there was definitively no foul play whatsoever from anyone period. I don't think there was, but I never made any definitive claims. My only definitive statements are those declaring that a sentiment of the BFEE doing it is a sign of delusion and irrationality.

[omega minimo]

138. Always

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

144. Hey Omega:

.........

Made ya look.

[burythehatchet]

155. its a malady called binary thinking,

There's an inability to recognize the space between 0 and 1.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

160. Wrong. It's Called Intelligence, Rationality, Intellect, Logical Analysis And Sanity.

But feel free to carry on with your empty illogical smears. I'm just laughing my ass off anyway.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

116. OMC, you have become an official "complete reassurance" person for me.

When I need "complete reassurance" that further suicides of cabal critics are nothing more than coincidence, I'll come running to you.

Mmmmm, strength of conviction, hug, hug, all better! :hi: MKJ

[Moochy]

117. Rofl waffles

you rock! :yourock:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

121. No Problem! Glad I Could Help You In Your Time Of Need.

:hi:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

123. OMC

I hate myself for loving you...:loveya: MKJ

[petgoat]

177. OMC brand Common Sense! Solves any Problem Instantly!

Answers Every Question! No Muss No Fuss!
Why Trouble Your Beautiful Mind with Contingent Thinking
and Tangled Epistemology? Every Damned Spot Out Out
JUSTLIKETHAT!

[Dr Fate]

189. No inference or analysis of similar past events required!!! n/t

n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

197. Doesn't Solve ANY Problem, Just The Problems Rooted In Paranoid Delusion And Irrationality.

But I've got plenty to go round, so whenever you need my assistance in the future just be sure to give a shout! :hi:

[petgoat]

224. Any Problem. Simply call it paranoid delusion and irrationality

and ***poof!*** it's gone.

[The Straight Story]

87. Allow me to put in my 2 cents here, as an ex cop

I came home from the night shift, got off work at 7am and was home by 7:30am.

Outside the apt I lived were several deputies and an ambulance. I walked over and asked what was going on. Apparently a guy had committed suicide by laying on the ground behind his tail pipe. I looked at the body and then started to look around.

Underneath the car I found a syringe. For some reason, no one bothered to look around for evidence of anything other than a suicide.

It was possible someone had drugged him and left him there, turned on the car and left.

I don't know how the case ever turned out, was not in my jurisdiction.

When there is a death, I see it as murder until shown otherwise. It could have been a jilted lover. Could have been he was drunk and depressed and jumped.

But being suspicious is not tin foil imho - blaming the bfee though is a tad over the top, but understandable given their history (and I don't think they would off some guy for asking a question....)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

101. I Don't Consider Hypothesizing That There Was Foul Play As Insane.

I do, however, consider notions that the BFEE sought him out and perpetrated it, based on some question he asked at a presser once a long time ago, as completely irrational and of tin foil hat merit.

[petgoat]

179. Why is it completely irrational? You think it doesn't send a

subliminal message?

"Look what happens to people who ask impolite questions. Of course his suicide
had nothing to do with Bush. But watch your karma, dude. The guy had a family,
just like you. Nobody's going to investigate his death. Be nice."

A common way to send message in the underworld is the death of a relative or lover.
Then people like OMC can say "It's completely irrational to think that the death of
a flight attendant in a tragic scuba accident in Barbados had anything to do with
the Chicago Mob," but the people who are supposed to get the message get the message.

[tomp]

154. why is it over the top?

i'm not a cop (but i've seen a lot of movies). don't you guys make a list of suspects? wouldn't it be normal procedure to look into the guy's life to see if anyone had a grudge, any past suspicious interactions?

[petgoat]

178. Nobody cares when a junkie dies. Not even his friends,

lovers, and family. Why should the cops care?

[RedStateShame]

34. Before I jump to conclusions, I'd like to know political commentator Kid Rock's views on this.

[roody]

41. Me too. Maybe we can catch him on the

way to the recruiters office.

[zonkers]

103. Man, you're killing me. (snicker)

[jn2375]

44. can't help but wonder

[shadowknows69]

60. I'd like to see the percentages of suicides

that are done by jumping from windows. It can't be high. Certainly not the preferred method. More suspicion.

[onenote]

80. according to this -- about 2 percent

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html

far less common than some other methods, but not exactly unheard of either

[elehhhhna]

185. he jumped from the top of the atrium into the lobby (Embassy Suites)

Not checked in but on the top floor? So...he went there for convenience sake or was invited there and pushed. Back to square one.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. Another one?

:scared:

[flyarm]

75. SOME DEATHS...FROM MY FILES..

I HAVE FILES OF SUSPICIOUS DEATHS...NOW DON'T HOLD ME TO FACTUAL STUFF..I AM JUST GOING TO POST WHAT IS IN SOME OF MY FILES...

FLY

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http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Jan/20050123News004.asp

Author airs conspiracy theory on Im’s death


By MIKE WELLS of the Tribune’s staff
Published Sunday, January 23, 2005
The death of retired research Professor Jeong Im has all the makings of a spy novel, and some say that idea isn’t far off base.

Someone stabbed the 72-year-old scientist multiple times in the Maryland Avenue parking garage at the University of Missouri-Columbia, put him in the trunk of his Honda and set the car on fire. Adding to the mystery, police say a hooded, masked man was seen carrying a gas can away from the scene.

University police on Friday announced a $10,000 reward for information leading to an arrest in the Jan. 7 killing. Police have received more than 185 leads, including some that appear far-fetched.

A few days after firefighters found Im’s body, a national radio talk-show guest theorized the killing was part of a plot to kill off key microbiologists in the world before unleashing "the ultimate epidemic."

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Gus Weiss, 2003: "jumped from window"

Top Secret Advisor To 4 Presidents Dies 'Violently' In DC
Posted Dec 8, 2003 07:06 AM PST
Gus W. Weiss, 72, adviser to four presidents on top secret policy matters, died violently in Washington, DC, on November 25, 2003, but his death was not reported by The Washington Post until December 7, 2003, in the obitiuary section at the bottom of page C12.

Nashville native Gus Weiss, adviser to 4 presidents, dies

Gus Weiss, a Nashville native who advised four presidents, served on the National Security Council for 16 years and won numerous awards for his foreign policy and intelligence-gathering skills, has died. He was 72.

Mr. Weiss died Tuesday in Washington, D.C. The circumstances surrounding his death could not be confirmed last night.

Friends of Mr. Weiss expressed shock at his death.

...

"He was wired into the intelligence community, and there were a lot of mystical secrets we weren't privy to," said Harris Gilbert, a Nashville attorney who had been friends with Mr. Weiss since childhood. "He was very interested in diplomatic strategy and was very, very opposed to the Iraq war. It was the first military action he ever opposed, but he believed we shouldn't go to war in the Middle East without knowing what we were getting into."
http://www.tennessean.com/obits/archives/03/11/43368774...


Gus W. Weiss, 72; White House Adviser

Gus W. Weiss, 72, a former White House policy adviser on technology, intelligence and economic affairs, died Nov. 25 of a fall from the Watergate East residential building in the District. The DC medical examiner ruled his death a suicide.

A spokesman for the D.C. police said that officers found his body at a service entrance to the apartment cooperative. Dr. Weiss lived in the building.

...



Much of his government work centered on national security, intelligence organizations and concerns over technology transfers to communist countries. As an adviser to the Central Intelligence Agency, he served on the Pentagon's Defense Science Board and the Signals Intelligence Committee of the U.S. Intelligence Board.

During the Carter administration, Dr. Weiss was assistant for space policy to the secretary of defense.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=artic...


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GOP Media Adviser Died of Drug Overdose
LOS ANGELES — Los Angeles coroner's autopsy shows Republican media adviser Gregory Stevens died from an overdose of cocaine and a painkiller. The death is being listed as accidental.

Stevens was 42. He served as co-chairman of the Bush/Cheney Entertainment Task Force.

The media adviser died at the Beverly Hills home of his friend, actress Carrie Fisher.

Coroner Lieutenant Emil Moldovan blames the death on cocaine and oxycodone. But Moldovan says Stevens also had an enlarged heart and coronary heart disease.

Stevens specialized in foreign campaign consulting and had advised candidates in 24 international elections.

He was a native of San Clemente and a graduate of the University of Southern California.




Last Updated: Mar 24, 2005

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talking about suspicious deaths and more


bush packing courts, not just supreme, also apellate, and circuit.

911 court case... gov't will try to get it thrown out.

not pursuing some of the people responsible for 1993 WTC bombing. there were more people involved.

suspicious DEATHS in Washington DC. in nov 2003, state dept employee Kokal jumped off a rooftop and 'killed himself'. suspicious. he was the top Iraqi analyst in the bureau and briefed Powell at least once a week. no way he committed suicide.

a few weeks later a CIA official, Gus Weiss?, who worked for Richard Pearl, Weiss jumped off the Watergate building.

both suspicious deaths.

neither of the guys had access to the rooftops.

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Guardian Unlimited | World Latest | Body of Neb. Senator's Aide Found in Pond
Body of Neb. Senator's Aide Found in Pond

Tuesday February 10, 2004 6:01 AM


McCOOK Neb. (AP) - Divers found the body of an aide to Sen. Ben Nelson in a pond Monday, a day after he was seen walking his dogs in a park south of McCook, authorities said.

Two of Scott Hoffman's dogs had returned to his home without him and another was picked up Sunday afternoon. Authorities believe Hoffman, 33, may have gone after his dogs as they chased geese onto the park pond's thin ice.

Nelson issued a statement Monday saying Hoffman ``will be missed and remembered fondly by all who knew him.''

Hoffman was an editor at the McCook Gazette from 1995 through 2000 before taking a job with Nelson's campaign. He was Nelson's field representative in McCook.

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Steve Kangas was found dead on the 39th floor of his enemy's doorstep at 11:30 PM on February 8 1999. In the bathroom of the offices of Richard Mellon Scaife, 2000 miles from home, -- in Pittsburgh PA. Shot (twice?) in the head. Due to obstructions of justice, local police investigating the wrong circumstances quickly ruled it a suicide. There are over 1000 heated Usenet posts on this topic, dated from eleven days after his death. How did he die?

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Welcome to AJC!

Body Is Found Inside U.N. Headquarters

NEW YORK (AP)--A body was found inside United Nations headquarters on Monday, a U.N. spokesman said. U.N. security and the New York police department are investigating the matter.

The U.N. spokesman said the person had been shot, and that the body was discovered inside the building's third-floor lounge at about 11:30 a.m. He declined to give any details on the deceased person pending notification of the family.

The spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the world body considered the shooting an ``isolated incident.''


AP-NY-12-01-03 1433EST

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FROM A WEB SITE WE CAN NOT POST FROM..MAYBE YOU CAN LOOK UP THIS WAY..OR PM ME I WILL GIVE YOU THE LINK......FLY

Four Witnesses To Lynch
'Rescue' Killed Under
Strange Circumstances
It's Just A Coincidence...
Picasso Dreams
10-29-3

SNIP:
Petty Officer First Class David M. Tapper died of wounds received in Afghanistan. He took part in the rescue.

Lance Cpl. Sok Khak Ung was killed in a drive-by shooting. He was also part of the rescue team.

Spc Josh Daniel Speer died when his car went over an embankment for no apparent reason. He was part of the rescue team.

Kyle Edward Williams, who worked in the same company as Lynch, died of "suicide". "A Tucson man was shot to death outside a West Side hotel Wednesday after breaking into a vehicle and being confronted by its owner, an Army soldier, who shot him in the back and fled, police said Friday.

The soldier, Spc. Kyle Edward Williams, 21, was found dead outside San Diego on Thursday and officials believe he committed suicide with one of the seven firearms he had been carrying with him.

He left no note to explain the suicide or why he fired six shots at Noah P. Gamez, also 21, after spotting the man stealing an ice chest from his Jeep.


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AND OF COURSE THERE ARE NUMEROUS MICRO BIOLOGISTS...

HOPE THIS HELPS SOME IN LOOKING INTO THIS...

FLY

[flyarm]

76. ADDING ANOTHER

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1970806,00.html

Ward was reputedly a former business consultant to Abramoff during Bush1/Quayle's unsucessful 1992 WH Campaign and in 1996 his official client adviser to UK-based Republicans Abroad campaigning for election funds to get Clinton out of office.

The Times January 05, 2006


Mystery of leading lawyer's suicide leap from hotel
By Steve Bird and Jonathan Richards

Friends of a woman who had a nearby flat are stunned by her sudden death



Katherine Ward, a 52-year-old lawyer for Rolls-Royce, fell 100ft from the fourth floor of a four-star hotel as horrified onlookers watched

A SUCCESSFUL Rolls-Royce corporate lawyer leapt 100ft to her death from an hotel in a public suicide.
Friends and neighbours of Katherine Ward, 52, were mystified last night why the vivacious, talented and wealthy solicitor took her own life.

The woman, who was originally from America but became a British citizen five years ago and was working as a senior executive at Rolls-Royce, was clearly seen to be distressed as she clambered on to the ledge outside the fourth-floor hotel bedroom that she had booked into the night before.



She killed herself at Jurys Hotel, South Kensington, West London, less than half a mile from her flat.


HERE IS MORE ON MS WARD..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=67141&mesg_id=79012

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ALSO THE MOTHER AND HUSBAND OF District Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow

AGAIN FROM A WEB SITE NOT PERMITTED HERE..PM ME IF YOU WANT THE ARTICLE..FLY

SNIP:

Apparently problems were developing in subpoenaeing Jeff Gannon alias Johnny Gosch as to data on blowing the cover of Valerie Plame. Not in open court, the Special Prosecutor took up the federal grand jury problems reportedly with Judge Lefkow.

[Dr Fate]

84. Damn- lots of would-be whistle blowers falling out of windows- must be a new fad...

...or a coincidence.

[Taxloss]

89. "Would-be whistle-blower". I love that.

It's just another way of saying they weren't whistle-blowers. But hey.

[Dr Fate]

107. No-it's a way of suggesting some may have been silenced before they could blow it.

But hey.

[Octafish]

217. Or policy.

The "CIA Assassination Manual" from the National Security Archives at George Washington University:

A STUDY OF ASSASSINATION

EXCERPT...

2. Accidents.

For secret assassination, either simple or chase, the contrived accident is the most effective technique. When successfully executed, it causes little excitement and is only casually investigated.

The most efficient accident, in simple assassination, is a fall of 75 feet or more onto a hard surface. Elevator shafts, stair wells, unscreened windows and bridges will serve. Bridge falls into water are not reliable. In simple cases a private meeting with the subject may be arranged at a properly-cased location. The act may be executed by sudden, vigorous (excised) of the ankles, tipping the subject over the edge. If the assassin immediately sets up an outcry, playing the "horrified witness", no alibi or surreptitious withdrawal is necessary. In chase cases it will usually be necessary to stun or drug the subject before dropping him. Care is required to insure that no wound or condition not attributable to the fall is discernible after death.

Falls into the sea or swiftly flowing rivers may suffice if the subject cannot swim. It will be more reliable if the assassin can arrange to attempt rescue, as he can thus be sure of the subject's death and at the same time establish a workable al ibi.

If the subject's personal habits make it feasible, alcohol may be used (2 words excised) to prepare him for a contrived accident of any kind.

Falls before trains or subway cars are usually effective, but require exact timing and can seldom be free from unexpected observation.

Automobile accidents are a less satisfactory means of assassination. If the subject is deliberately run down, very exact timing is necessary and investigation is likely to be thorough. If the subject's car is tampered with, reliability is very lo w. The subject may be stunned or drugged and then placed in the car, but this is only reliable when the car can be run off a high cliff or into deep water without observation.

Arson can cause accidental death if the subject is drugged and left in a burning building. Reliability is not satisfactory unless the building is isolated and highly combustible.

CONTINUED...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/ciaguat2.html

Our tax dollars at work, eh Doctor?

[stillcool]

126. Nice compilation...Steve Kangas...

always comes to mind when these 'probable' suicides come to light.

[Dr Fate]

83. Bah- all one big, happy coincidence. Nothing to see here- move on. n/t

n/t

[Morgana LaFey]

99. Here's one of our own I'm concerned about

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2978636&mesg_id=2978636

[shadowknows69]

111. I feel you on that one Morgana

it's coming time we should somehow keep better track of our own. Some of us should exchange the occasional outside email no?

[shance]

156. Is there anyway to contact Corpactvist?. Was his name not David?

He was very open about publishing his name.

First and last.

I'll take a look and see if I can find his name on a thread.

[Morgana LaFey]

225. Yes. I'd vote for an extra-internets method of being in contact

with most of us, tho I have no idea how that would work, esp. given how many trolls, freepers and agents provocateurs are obviously getting away with being here. But, I suppose we could buddy up with people we individually trust. THAT would work, I think.

[mnhtnbb]

104. You'd want to know who was registered in all rooms on the floor where he was seen

If he wasn't registered, maybe he had a meeting with someone. Who?
What was discussed?

[durtee librul]

112. Anyone know where

Bob Novak was at the time?

[blogslut]

118. According to the article

"Police said that before Sanford fell, hotel housekeepers saw him pacing the hallway of an upper floor. Cercone said Sanford's car was parked next to the hotel, and he was not checked in as a guest."

That doesn't make sense. I suppose suicide is always sudden but doesn't one normally check in to the hotel where one is to commit suicide? Who parks their car, paces the hall, enters an (unoccupied?) room - and jumps out the window? Was this the tallest building in town? Did he meet someone who let him into the room?

Very odd.

[Richard D]

119. I hope someone . . .

. . . carefully checks his phone records: "Hello, Mr Sanford, we have some important information to give you. Please meet us as soon as possible in room . . .

[elehhhhna]

186. He went over the atrium into the LOBBY, not out a window.

[blogslut]

208. Even more illogical

n/t

[NotGivingUp]

124. I wouldn't bother arguing with some of the people that have

posted here. It's plain to see what they are. There's plenty of reason to doubt the validity of this as a suicide. ANYONE who says there is no doubt and posts childish & ridiculing responses, does not even deserve anybody's attention.

[Jcrowley]

127. Curiouser and curiouser

http://www.wburg.com/0202/arts/lombardi.html

[flyarm]

128. do an archive search here at du about james bath..lots here..and

lots at kos ..and goggle..

he has been disected here..in every way..and it is all good info..on the * crime family!!

fly

[Jcrowley]

129. Thanks

Your posts are quite helpful for those who care to peek behind the curtains and challenge their comfortable assumptions.

:toast:

[lala_rawraw]

130. My 2 cents

For me, his relationship to a single question several years back is not enough evidence to call this a coincidence, let alone a conspiracy. He was not apparently continuing his investigative reporting work. He appears to have gone into law as a full time gig.

Also important to note is that hits are rarely done if they can be avoided. It is much easier and less obvious to discredit someone. That is and has always been the prime MO of most criminal elements in government.

On the other side, he had just purchased an office and was making plans, not something a person wanting to die does. Most people who are serious about offing themselves are not impulsive about it. They tend to have an internal struggle. Some do appear happy after they have decided to off themselves, because the difficult choice has been made and they are in essence free. That could account for why his family thought him happy.

But given that we have an article to go by and not much else, the only things we know are as follows:

1). he died by either jumping, falling, or being pushed out his hotel window
2). he is described as agitated beforehand (pacing in the hall)
3). there is no overt connection to the Bush family, outside of a single question a few years back
4). the police won't disclose why they have ruled it a suicide

Number 4 is what sets of bells for me. But again, while it is healthy to be skeptical, let's be cautious in how we explore this. There is a very strong possibility of murder here, but there is no proof or even reason to tie this to Bush or his family. It is possible that this attorney got into some questionable relationships or represented the wrong clients or uncovered something about a case, etc.

Number 1 adds to my suspicion as most suicides are not this dramatic or public. Usually someone threatening to jump is just threatening to jump. It does happen, but this is not common. Again, this does not implicate the Bush family or administration. But just because it does not implicate them, does not mean a crime has not be committed.

Based on the little we have, this is what I see (my 2 cents for what it is worth):

Murder or Suicide (we don't have enough information to speculate as to whom the murderer is at this point, if it is indeed a murder):

A fall drop indicates a contract hit. That is to say, not a government agent. Organized crime operates in this manner or by simply shooting people. Agents and such prefer other methods.

The agitated state would suggest a number of things: did a business deal go bad? did a girlfriend threaten to tell his wife? did he get a threat? This could point in either direction.

Recent activities such as buying an office and such would suggest that he was not planning on checking out. Then again, if he was bio-polar, he could have purchased the office while manic and then realized what he did and crashed into depression.

In other words, the only thing that right now strikes me as very strange is the manner of death and the police refusing to explain why they came to this conclusion.

The questions that need to be examined:

1). What was he working on in the past year (yes, the date of the crime, if there is a crime, is important as it is usually related to something)?
2). Who were his major clients?
3). Did he have a history of mental illness, depression, attempted suicide
4). Was he involved in any criminal activity?
5). Was he investigating criminal activity?
6). Was he in any way prone to blackmail or threats: cheating on his wife, strange business dealings, odd government connections (one question does not count on its own)?
7). What did he do in the last 24 hours from the time he got up until his death?
8). Who was his last visitor?
9). Did he take any new medications?
etc...

as you can see, we are very far away from anything conclusive. it would be nice if the police would explain how they ruled it a suicide, but until they do, there will be a question of murder because of how bizarre the death is. i for one am skeptical of the official ruling right now, simply because anything kept secret raises my red flags. i think instead of arguing, it might be more productive to attempt to answer some of these questions through open source.

anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Spiffarino]

136. Thanks for that moment of clarity

Your nine questions are spot on. A cop should want to know about the agitated pacing, what he was doing at a hotel where wasn't checked in, etc., before chalking it up to suicide.

This doesn't smack of the usual manner or method one would expect, especially for an American male. Firearms are by far the "preferred" method. As for the manner of it, there doesn't appear to have been anything leading up to his wanting to die.

However, if it was a suicide, it had to have been in a moment of panic. Without access to a firearm a leap from a tall building would do the job almost as quickly.

Case most definitely NOT closed.

[flyarm]

142. VERY GOOD 2 CENTS....I POSTED WHAT I HAVE IN MY FILES NOT DRAWING ANY CONCLUSIONS

I JUST KEEP WHAT I THINK ARE SUSPICIOUS DEATHS.. i have now kept them for years..because i saw too many coinsidences..but i have no proof or even facts beyond articles surrounding deaths that have occured...


my family has also experienced a suicide ..and the ones described in many of these cases seems so far off from what we experienced...but who is to ever say what a person will do when they get to that point in life..and death...
i certainly would never try to play shrink to that..i couldn't.

i totally agree with LALA RAW..."as you can see, we are very far away from anything conclusive"

i just keep track of these tragedy's ...and i look for further evidence to come forward..

maybe i never noticed it before in other administrations the numbers of suicides...i don't know..but i did notice it long before the suicide our family experienced...

what we experienced was more explainable than some of these..it was a senior citizen who had Alzheimer's ..that went in and out ..in the middle stages...
but nonetheless it was a horrible family experience.

we need to wait until an investigation is complete to know the facts.
Hopefully the police will make that investigation public..they may or may not.

I do know with our family member ..a complete investigation took place..a very thorough investigation.But with that, i will say, our family asked the information be witheld from the public..

fly

[Joe Chi Minh]

161. I'm surprised that you have accepted the cleaners' account of

Mr Stanford's agitated state without question.

Part of the MO of the murderers of the far-right, presumably for the most part, behind the politicians and pulling the strings, is intimidation or, as a last resort, elimination of witnesses. The former struck me as a distinct possibility straight away.

However, further to your point about the behaviour of the police, there is one pre-eminent thread (along with the strange party political bias) which ties all these "suicidings" together, namely, the perfunctory treatment given them by mysteriously uncommunicative authorities, such as the FBI, local police dealing with them.

[Dr Fate]

169. Great post- but what makes you so sure he did not have more Plame info?

What if some whistle blower who saw him ask those tough questions-trusted him after that ans contacted him and provided him with more Plame info?

Perhaps he was afraid to use it- or was sitting on it-or was working on confirming the info or gathering more.

I think your post is more well thought out than most- but I'm not as convinced as you might be that he was not possibly holding some Plame info.

I also dont draw only one conclusion from the cleaning lady's report- if he knew someone was after him, that would put him in an agitated state too.

[omega minimo]

134. Standing 9 floors up at the edge of Monterey Bay on a clear December day gives you reason to live

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

145. Not If You Have Strong Enough Conviction To Wanna Die.

[StrictlyRockers]

162. Which there was absolutely NO EVIDENCE of in this case.

Another strawman, a falacious argument from MINDCRIME. These kind of arguments are mind crimes.

I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE, only that EVERYTHNG we have heard argues against what you just posted.

The point you are trying to make holds no water, and it is very silly for you to try to make that point in this thread. You are speculating and drawing upoin theories with no basis in reality. I'm going to investigate further and get more information. At that point I might feel justified in posting some embarrassing nonsense on the DU boards.

SR

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

166. .

:spray:

Yeah, I'm the delusional one.

I'm not saying he did or didn't do it himself. Who knows?

What I do know is that the BFEE didn't have anything to do with it, and it would take a deluded and irrational mind to be convinced that they did.

[StrictlyRockers]

172. I am convinced that you have no idea what you are talking about.

My last post on the subject.

You are not worthy of debating if you have already concluded, based soley on evidence which points us in the opposite direction, that there is no chance that the BFEE had anything to do with this.

Oswald was the lone gunman, too. We knew that for sure and for certain from day one as well. Didn't we??

:rolls eyes heavenward:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

199. Doesn't Surprise Me. You're Convinced The BFEE Offed This Guy, So You Have An Inclination To Be

convinced of things that are not real.


But I challenge you to tell me, without saying "I don't put anything past them blah blah", does it REALLY make sense to you for even a smidgen of a second that the BFEE would take the risks and effort of offing some unknown guy who no one cares about and is currently not connected to them in any shape or form whatsoever, just because a year and a half ago he asked a semi provocative question that has long been forgotten? You HONESTLY think that makes sense, sounds rational and is not of a delusional thought process for even a second?

I certainly don't. It is a completely illogical theory with no merit whatsoever in my opinion.

[Moochy]

176. Acknowledging the problem is the first step

"Yeah, I'm the delusional one."

Now that you have acknowledged the problem what is your plan of action to address the problem?

We are all here for you! :grouphug:

[CJCRANE]

194. How do you know

"the BFEE didn't have anything to do with it" before we even know the full story?

I don't see anyone here saying they are convinced it was political, just suspicions.

You seem to be over-reacting to those suspicions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

198. By Common Sense Reasoning, Logical Deduction, Non-Delusional Thoughts, And Critical Thinking.

To give credence for a moment that because some unknown guy asked a provocative question at a presser a year and half ago the BFEE had him killed now, would be an incredible violation of my personal pride in my objective, critical, logical and intellectual reasoning capabilities and would cause me to cringe mercilessly at myself upon reflecting on such momentary delusion.

Tell me, without saying "I don't put anything past them blah blah", does it REALLY make sense to you for even a smidgen of a second that the BFEE would take the risks and effort of offing some unknown guy who no one cares about and is currently not connected to them in any shape or form whatsoever, just because a year and a half ago he asked a semi provocative question that has long been forgotten? You HONESTLY think that makes sense, sounds rational and is not of a delusional thought process for even a second?

I certainly don't. It is a completely illogical theory with no merit whatsoever in my opinion.

[CJCRANE]

202. I don't know

because I don't know the full story.

Why was Litvinenko poisoned with polonium? Why were high-level Democrats and journalists attacked with anthrax?

When one doesn't know the full details it pays to keep an open mind.

[flyarm]

203. i have bought many new homes..and it seems to me..someone buying a new home and opening a new law

firm might not lead to strong convictions to wanna die..

in fact i would say after buying many new homes...it usually makes me quite happy and excited..

but either way..i would never presume to know what is or isn't in another's mind..

nor would i know what criminals do!!

fly

[Garbo 2004]

232. Except he would have faced the indoor atrium, not the Bay. It was inside the hotel.

The interior design of that Embassy Suites hotel appears to be the same as others I've stayed at. Rooms are accessed via walkways that surround/overlook the huge indoor atrium. Which is how, as newspapers reported, people eating their complementary breakfast in the atrium would see him falling and he could land in the lobby area. It was indoors.

Pic of atrium with the walkways: http://embassysuites.hilton.com/en/es/hotels/photo_gallery.jhtml?ctyhocn=MRYESES&category=0&index=0&photo=1 As the police said in the Santa Cruz paper, an accidental fall seems unlikely. And while of course someone could struggle with/shove/throw someone over the railing, they'd also run the risk of being seen (and also heard if there was screaming/shouting) by anyone on that or other walkways around the atrium at about the same level. People coming out of or going to their rooms. Not impossible to bump someone off in that manner, of course, but it's not exactly a private place or a controlled situation with minimal risk of possible witnesses in which to toss someone over a railng.

[librechik]

135. Question: what did he find out that we don't know about yet? eom.

[Dr Fate]

167. That is the inference that the Coincidence Theorists refuse to consider.

That was one of my first thoughts too:

What interviews or disclosures about Plame (or something else) did he gain access to in his capacity as a journalist/attorney/political radio host?

Was he working on a story about Plame?

Did someone trust him to come to him with info after seeing his tough questions to the WH?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

139. One prominent Republican ....maybe 2

The only prominent Republican that I know of that has died in a "suspicious plane crash" was Senator John Tower, first Republican senator in TX since Reconstruction.

I believe that he was on the Iran-Contra Committee.
Draw your own conclusions.

That was within a week or so of the plane crash that killed another senator, Senator Heinz. The one that made Teresa Heinz-Kerry a widow. I think Heinz was a Republican too, not sure. Don't know the circumstances on that one.

[Contrite]

147. Here is background on the question and his Air America suit.

http://www.kusp.org/shows/totb_2005.html (scroll down to Nov. 21 show)

The link to a "Talk of The Bay" Nov. 21 2005 interview with Paul discussing the case and how he asked the question.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/10.26.05/nuz-0543.html

http://www.metrosantacruz.com/metro-santa-cruz/11.16.05/nuz-0546.html

Articles discussing the particulars of the case against Zwerling/Air America.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0910-01.htm

Article about how Paul was involved with a movement within the Santa Cruz city council to probe impeachment of Bush. The Santa Cruz City Council on Tuesday became the nation's first local government to ask Congress to look into impeaching President Bush on charges he deceived the American public about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and has used the Sept. 11 attacks as an excuse to crush civil rights.

He was also involved in a case defending a couple over their right to legal medical marijuana.

http://cannabisnews.com/news/14/thread14260.shtml

Plus the Supreme Court case to remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2004/March/24/local/stories/02local.htm

Quite a guy.

[Rex]

163. Most likley a homicide that will be ruled a suicide.

Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

[StrictlyRockers]

195. More info on this from Wayne Madsen Reports:

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/index.php

December 28-31, 2006 -- California attorney and journalist Paul Sanford, Michael Newdow's attorney who argued before the US Supreme Court why "Under God" should be excised from the Pledge of Allegiance but who is best remembered for asking Bush Press Secretary Scott McClellan in 2005 why the leaking of CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson's name by the White House should not be considered an act of treason, died suddenly at the Embassy Suites Hotel in Seaside, California on Christmas Eve.

For over a decade, this reporter has been cited as a modern-day Osiris in trying to alert the world to the suspicious deaths of journalist colleagues -- from Danny Casolaro and Paul Wilcher to Gary Webb and Dale Solly. Unfortunately, there is now again reason to believe that a journalist's death may have not been what is being reported. The suspicious deaths of opponents of the Bush Crime Family, from journalists and intelligence agents to businessmen and other private citizens, has reached epidemic proportions.

According to police who spoke to the Monterey Herald, Sanford, who was married with two children, "probably" jumped between 9 and 12 floors above the hotel's atrium to his death in what is being called a "suicide." Odd behavior for someone who had just bought his mother's home in picturesque Pebble Beach where he planned to retire in the future. Sanford, an advocate for progressive causes, was a strong believer in the US Constitution who always carried a copy with him. In 2005, Sanford represented a Santa Cruz homeless man who was cited by police for violating a city ordinance against using "profane or abusive" language in soliciting for money. The man had a sign in his straw hat that read "Fuck the Pigs." By pigs, the man meant the police. City prosecutors later dropped the charges.

Sanford's friends expressed disbelief that he would put his family through such a trauma resulting from a suicide.

Sanford was not checked into the hotel but often met contacts at the neighboring Chili's Restaurant. His car was parked next to the Embassy Suites. Police had no clear evidence to rule Sanford's death a suicide other than some hotel cleaners' statements that he was seen pacing an upstairs hallway prior to his death.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

200. Wayne Madsen.... ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[StrictlyRockers]

204. Hmm, who else is know to often attack sources rather than provide any cogent rebuttal?

Hmmmmm?

I think we found one.

(Oops, I already said I wouldn't respond to this guy. But when you display your stripes for all to see...)

SR

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

211. Madsen Is An Embarrassing Fraud. You Know That Right? Please Tell Me You Do.

[Octafish]

212. Madsen's good enough for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s show on AAR.

http://www.ringoffireradio.com/show.asp?jid=12

He was on the first show and he's been a guest several times since then.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

214. Don't Really Care. I Still Consider Him To Be An Embarrassing Fraud.

As do many, many people on DU.

Oh, you know he trashed the hell out of our site and Skinner, correct?

[Octafish]

216. Too bad. So sad.

It's no secret: For many reasons, I respect both of them.

If there's any way I can help them resolve their disagreement, I am at their service.

[onenote]

207. so why is madsen still alive?

how has he escaped?

or maybe people die and it has nothing to do with chimpy and his gang.

[LeftCoast]

227. Shhhh...logical thinking has no place in this discussion!

:rofl:

[Dr Fate]

239. Why is it logical to assume that if one Bush ememy is killed, then they all have to be?

You seem to be suggesting that accusing Bush of silencing one enemy is only logical if he does to ALL of his enemies- I'm not so sure that position is air-tight logic either.

[onenote]

240. why is logical to assume they'd "silence" someone who noone was paying

any attention to but not silence the people who do command attention. Try googling Paul Sanford and see how many stories about him show up (apart from those relating to his death) in the last 12 months. He hasn't caused a ripple in the public eye since then.

[Dr Fate]

241. Very few of the other "suicides" or murders mentioned on this thread are of famous people either.

Yet it sure would be one HUGE coincidence if all these would-be whistle blowers all just happened to be crime victims or depressed to the point of suicide too.

In order for any conspiracy to make sense to me at this point- you would have to assume that he had some new info or was continuing an investigation.

Not a stretch if you consider that he was a radio host- perhaps a whistle blower heard his tough questions to Bush, trusted him as a truthseeker and provided him with some juicy info that the deceased was either sitting on or trying to confirm.

I dont know if there was a conspiracy or not- my main point in this thread is that it may not be so nutty or illogical to think that there is.

It is certainly better to argue over these points with you than to just shrug and believe the media's suicide story.

[Dr Fate]

237. Why is Scott Ritter, John Conyers, or Henry Waxman still alive??

Just because they dont kill everyone who is a somewhat well-known Bush critic does not mean they cant go after some who are not so high profile & well known- I dont see how this negates anything.

[bobthedrummer]

201. hmmm, well, killing for political reasons has picked up-and that includes

the often denied domestic programs. hmmm...

[StrictlyRockers]

205. No one should forget that this forum has an IGNORE button.

:woohoo: :woohoo:

I almost forgot about it.

It is a very useful tool for wading through the drivel which gets posted here occasionally.


SR

[RevolutionStartsNow]

210. Link to article in my local paper about him

He lived in my town. :(

He did a lot of things other than the infamous question to Scotty, so who knows what he was into?

I find it curious, but am not immediately thinking foul play. Could be, but then again you never really know what's going on with someone. He could have had personal problems that none of us know about, that not even his family knew.

Not that I would be shocked to find out it was some kind of hit, but I'd have to have some evidence that he was pissing off someone in gov't more than just asking a somewhat dicey question to the WH press liar.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/December/28/local/stories/02local.htm

[ooglymoogly]

215. after all the fol de rol who amongst us really beleives this saintly

man could stoop so low...its only a rumor that this man holds grudges like a witch holds holy bones. clearly its only a coincidence that so many whistle blowers and enemies of the gop have committed suicide crashed in small planes or been shot in the head and it surely has nothing to do with our fearless leader....yuh fer sher....shares in the brooklyn bridge for sale here

[AZBlue]

219. I think we need more info on his personal life and psychiatric history before making assumptions.

I'm not saying he wasn't murdered - and I'm not saying he was. It's certainly a little suspicious and could easily fit into a fake-suicide scenario.

Then again, the one argument I see over and over again on this thread is that he had just bought a house and that someone who had done that wouldn't commit suicide - actually, they would if they had any kind of imbalance or depression in their history. Buying a house is an overwhelming responsibility and could be a tipping point for someone. How was his marriage? His health? Job security? Finances? Personal relationships? And so on.

What we know so far is only enough to make us ask questions before coming to a definite decision. And, perhaps his family doesn't want his personal life displayed before the whole world. Maybe it's none of our business.

What I do know for sure is that I'm very sorry for his friends and family and my thoughts are with them.

[grasswire]

229. and then there's Frank Olson

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd0828.html

Too early for Bush to have been involved in Olson's "leap" from the thirteenth floor of a hotel room. Not too early for Cheney and Rumsfeld to be involved in the coverup.

[Octafish]

231. Poppy headed CIA at the time.

This is old news to you, grasswire, but those new to the subject can learn a lot from what Sen. Frank Church discovered:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAchurchF.htm

[bobthedrummer]

233. Octafish, my friend-how about Philip Merrill's "suicide" this year

what a hit that was-blows his head off with a shotgun while on his yacht in Chesapeake Bay, and has an anchor tied to his body, wasn't found for days
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1300

Cheney swore Mr. Merrill in as President of the Import-Export Bank of The United States
http://www.exim.gov/pressrelease.cfm/B040D9A1-1032-5B0F-BAB1587C930C5EIF

[Octafish]

236. Was it something he said?

Guy navigates his boat where no one will notice anything unusual, ties an anchor to his legs, positions himself in just the right way to go in the drink, and then pulls the trigger of the shotgun. Right. Or was it something he knew?

BNL-Iraqgaate, Kissinger & Assoc., CIA-Drugs all can go through the Export-Import Bank. Ha ha.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg06384.html

[flyarm]

242. ABOUT YOUR POST ABOUT MERRILL...

PER YOUR POST ABOUT MERRILL

Octafish, my friend-how about Philip Merrill's "suicide" this year

what a hit that was-blows his head off with a shotgun while on his yacht in Chesapeake Bay, and has an anchor tied to his body, wasn't found for days
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1300

Cheney swore Mr. Merrill in as President of the Import-Export Bank of The United States
http://www.exim.gov/pressrelease.cfm/B040D9A1-1032-5B0F...

ACTUALLY A COUPLE WEEKS AGO MY HUBBY AND I WERE HELPING WITH A FUND RAISING DINNER FOR JOHNS HOPKINS..

AND WE WERE SEATED WITH AN ENTIRE TABLE OF TOP DOG D.C. LAWYERS..THE TOP DOG..WAS GOOD FRIENDS WITH MERRILL..AND HE AND I DISCUSSED HIM AND HIS SUICIDE..THIS VERY PoWERFUL ATTORNEY..ASSURED ME HE WAS BEST FRIENDS WITH MERRILL AND MERRILL HAD A SHORT TIME BEFORE UNDERGONE BYPASS SURGERY AND THEN went through a horrible depression...he was on many medications..in fact this attorney had visted him many times to try to shake him out of the depression..

Merrill made many many statements to this attorney that he didn't want to live this way...to make a long story short..this attorney felt bad..very bad that he didn't do more to help his friend get his meds adjusted ..and help him more out of his depression..

this attorney assured me Merrills death was indeed a suicide..no doubt what so ever from this very powerful attorney ..and best friends with Merrill.

fly