This whole Gerald Ford thing...

[renie408]

I have been reading the Ford posts off and on all day and I have come up with an idea perhaps, JUST MAYBE, Gerald Ford was like most of us and not one dimensional. Yes, I know, that is a radical concept. I was listening to some stuff that was said on NPR (yes, I know. I am sure that NPR IS a closet GOP propaganda machine, but I couldn't afford to renew my XFM) and it seemed to me that Ford was probably a generally nice guy who backed into the position he found himself in. Not being the brightest bulb in the box, he may not have made the greatest choices in every situation.

But what good does it do to villify the guy on the day of his death? How...icky. And no matter what you think, there is no inherent morality to this strident, inflexible...ickiness. Jeez Louise, if you can get THAT worked up over Ford, you can get worked up over just about anybody! I mean, come on! You guys need to pick one, maybe two, Mastermind Antichrists and stick with them. Not EVERY SINGLE Republican to hold office has been the spawn of Satan. And I am willing to bet that quite a few Democrats made mistakes bigger than anything Ford did.

Constant, corrosive criticism is easy. It is VERY easy to figure out where people have screwed up. Putting it in perspective is hard.

I think if I am going to have to take somebody's word on Gerald Ford, I choose to take Jimmy Carter's. And he had some nice things to say about the man. I am sure that some of you here know FAR MORE about Gerald Ford than Jimmy Carter does. Or wait, I am sure Jimmy Carter is ALSO a bad man. But if I have to pick, I am still going with Carter.

[Richardo]

1. .

:applause:

:patriot:

Very well said, renie. thanks and recommended.

[stansnark]

2. gerald ford was a decent man. he didn't cheat at cards.

[terrya]

3. Kicked and recommended.

You've made some excellent points.

Good post and I thank you.

:thumbsup:

[WI_DEM]

4. I recall (and I was ten when Ford became president) Ford as a nice guy

but a mediocre president. My first election that I showed any interest in was '76 (age 12) and I was a huge Carter supporter. I even wore a Carter button to school. But I also thought Ford was nice and was a huge fan of Betty.

[calzone]

5. Hyperbole aside....

renie wrote:
"I think if I am going to have to take somebody's word on Gerald Ford, I choose to take Jimmy Carter's. And he had some nice things to say about the man. I am sure that some of you here know FAR MORE about Gerald Ford than Jimmy Carter does. Or wait, I am sure Jimmy Carter is ALSO a bad man. But if I have to pick, I am still going with Carter."

Jimmy Carter has an obligation under the protocol of his public position to say kind words about Ford, just the way Clinton did about Reagan. That doesn't mean his words qualify as a synopsis for history. We, the public, the recipients of Ford's legacy, are under no such restrictions.
Carter didn't always have nice things to say about Ford, as a little research will reveal. I remember because I was a young adult at the time, and followed politics closely.
That being said, I believe Carter was one of the best presidents this country has ever had.

[renie408]

9. We are also not obligated

To villify the people who choose NOT to attack him on the day of his death. I don't have a problem with any balanced and rational analysis of Gerald Ford's Presidency. In fact, I would APPRECIATE an honest and thoughtful analysis. But I have to believe that a thoughtful analysis of ANY President would come up with some positives and wouldn't preclude somebody being able to say on the day of their death, "He was a nice guy" without being ripped to pieces. Hell, I even think that George Bush has a more balanced approach to illegal aliens in this country than a lot of Democrats. I can say that for the guy. It doesn't mean that I don't see his FLAWS, it means that I am trying to see ALL of him. I am not real sure I will be able to say anything nice about him on the day he dies, but I damn well bet I am civil enough to keep from attacking somebody if they do.

[calzone]

13. More hyperbole aside...

If you're refering to me, I haven't attacked or vilified you.
I have done a balanced review of Ford in another thread.
I believe we have an obligation to call crimes when we see them. High crimes, not "mistakes".
If you feel the need to refrain from pointing out someones crimes on their death, fine, but I don't agree with your definition of "civil". To me, the civil thing to do is prevent a glossing over of gross misdeeds and a squandered oppurtunity to make the world a better place.
If we fail to point out corruption and hold people responsible for it, it will just flourish, and the Bush presidency is a case in point. All evil requires to flourish is for good men to do (and say) nothing.
Being polite, balanced, tolerant and morally circumspect never stopped a bully, never stopped oppression or exploitation and never impressed a thug or a crook. We aren't talking about some obnoxious jerk at a party, we're talking about people in positions of great power being corrupt and bringing misery and injustice into the world, when there's already a glut.

[renie408]

14. No. I am not referring to you.

I wasn't referring to you when I wrote the original post, either. I respect your opinion and have no problem with it. I was commenting on some of the responses to threads I have read where some posters here have gone after other posters here for having the unmitigated gall to say they recalled Gerald Ford as being a nice guy. I am thinking from reading your responses here that you probably wouldn't do that.

It would, after all, require hyperbole.

[MichiganVote]

12. Ford and Carter & wives have enjoyed a long friendship for years

[calzone]

15. Friends?

Michiganvote, I find it very hard to believe that Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford have been close, personal friends for years. I'm willing to read any evidence or attribution you can source, but keep in mind that sites like wikipedia and the Ford presidential library won't be compelling to me.
And "friends" means something quite different from "close personal friends", the same way "cordial" means something quite different from "warm".

[renie408]

16. I think he said their WIVES were friends.

And what would you take for proof? A blood oath sworn in front of witnesses?

Christ, you people are all freaks. I think I am starting to remember why I took a year off from this place.

[MichiganVote]

21. The couples, the wives....don't sweat it renie, not worth the time.

[MichiganVote]

18. Ok, well I'll tell you what, since you're so sure of your opinion w/o

doing any fact checking for yourself, allow me to decline doing it for you. And for your next act of maturity, why don't you just report what you find back to me here. I'm a patient person and always willing to indulge the efforts of novices.

[renie408]

20. Wow. That was WAY better than what I said.

Lots more mature.

[MichiganVote]

22. :) Yes, mother taught me how to bite back

[renie408]

24. Good for her. I hope I can do as well for my own kids. I guess I could start by

not allowing myself to get so easily freaked out.

[MichiganVote]

26. Lots of time, lots of opportunities to practice. And that's life on earth

[renie408]

27. Amen. :) n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

34. You GO!!

:yourock:

[calzone]

30. You know what?

You posted that Carter and Ford were friends. This is counter-intuitive so I politely challenged you to show some evidence. You apparently have no evidence, hence the rude, cop-out response. Either be willing to back up your statements or take the heat. I can say Stalin played volleyball at the convent but if challenged, I must show at least ONE credible source. That's how political forums work. You make an assertion, and be ready to back it up if challenged. Before I posted my original response to you I did some cursory checking, with no results to support your assertion.
All I need is one good source. Say....the Jimmy Carter presidential library.
I'll be waiting.

[renie408]

35. NO! He posted that their WIVES were friends. And how do you prove/disprove

something like that? If he shows that they communicated, you will just say it was the ordinary civility required between ex-President's wives. And unless he has copies of their personal correspondence, which he can't have, how can he prove that they were friends? So, equally, how can you say with such vehemence that they weren't? Why would it be weird for these two women to become friends anyway?

[calzone]

40. Good lord Renie

Read the heading of his post.
He was using a presumed friendship between J. Carter and G. Ford as way to legitimize Ford's character through association and acceptance by an honorable man. Whatever relationship existed between the men's wives is irrelevant.

[renie408]

43. Nooo....

I think he was saying that since Ford and Carter and their wives (yes, I misread that) were friends for years, Carter might know more about Ford than, say, YOU do. And since Carter could find something nice to say about the guy on the day he died, somebody like, say, YOU could at least not attack other people who also found something nice to say on the day he died.

BTW...he said they were 'friends'. He did not say that they were 'close personal friends'. That was YOUR perversion of his post. 'Friends' covers a lot of ground that may or may not be 'close and personal'.

But I forget...Carter actually danced around his house in Plains cackling with joy over the death of the evil bastard. He only said that nice stuff because it was expected of him due to his position as an ex-President. (Yes, that is hyperbole. I LIKE HYPERBOLE, OK?????)

[calzone]

59. You're welcome to the silly hyperbole

But don't expect to be taken seriously.
I don't treat the word of michiganvote as God's voice of truth on earth.
If he wants to convince me that a man who I admire is close personal friends with Ford, Ford..who when questioned during the hearings to confirm him as president, said in response to the question "Would you, as president, pardon Richard Nixon" responded "No. I don't believe the American people would stand for that." well then he's gonna have to back up his assertion. He has failed to do so. Yet you (ham-handedly) defend him.
All I did was question his source. The responsible, appropriate thing to do.
All I've gotten in return from you & him is bullshit.

[renie408]

61. Well, you can rest assured of your superiority. And we shall have to

go forward armed only in the knowledge that we are very likely a heckuva sight more fun at a party. You, my friend, have 'buzz kill' written all over you.

[MichiganVote]

65. Mama would be proud. Pass the bandaids out for the tender hearted children.

[renie408]

68. ROFL!! I think I love you, man!!

[calzone]

72. I take killing, coverups, lying and corruption seriously

When being funny and lighthearted is called for, I can play. Essentially you're saying you can't effectively debate my points, so you're calling me "uncool".
Hokay. I've been called way worse. Reminds me of one of my favorite Monty Python skits..."You're no fun anymore!"

[renie408]

74. Ok. n/t

[MichiganVote]

63. Calzone, I did not say the Fords and Carters were "close personal friends"

whatever that association has come to mean to you.

[calzone]

77. Doesn't matter what it means to me

It only matters what it means to you.
But whatever it means, in any interpretation, you're obviously full of crapola.
I've been stupendously, enormously, saint-like in my tolerance and patience with you. I should win the Nobel Peace prize, but now I must leave you to wallow in your foolishness.
You had your chance to dig your way out. C'mon....put down the shovel. Times up.

[MichiganVote]

79. You're an alter boy? Cripes! Why didn't you say so before?

I hereby award you the Noble Piece of Pie Award!

[renie408]

80. No, no...He is 'Saint-like'...(Now I KNOW he ain't no fun at a party) n/t

[MichiganVote]

81. Oh. So he's just a lousy priest? Well that sucks.....

[renie408]

82. My new friend...

I must leave you. I am basically a farmer and morning comes pretty damn early here.

All sarcasm and playing aside, I enjoyed our conversation this evening. Thanks!

[MichiganVote]

84. R.I.P. :)

[MichiganVote]

48. Darling, that may be your rendition of how I work on this message board

but I make my own rules. Ford and Carter were friends.

Now here's what you do, you say to yourself something like, 'Holy Christ, I don't believe it!" And then, because you're a big boy or girl, you do your own research to learn whatever it is that will put the pins back in your diaper.

And for the record, I don't give a rat's ass about your challenge. It, and you, don't concern me.

[renie408]

51. ROFL....MI, what would your mama say???n/t

[MichiganVote]

55. She would invite this child to tea in the back of the woodshed.

[renie408]

56. Are you SURE you are from Michigan? Cause your mama sounds like my mama

And we are from SC!

Or maybe it's just a mama thing??

[MichiganVote]

57. Mama thing. But there would have been a lot of church stuff too.

[calzone]

58. Still stalling huh?

Right, my challenge doesn't concern you, that's why you're still shucking & jiving.
Like I said, you pulled your statement out of your bunghole, now you're ducking and running.
I make statements based on facts, not bullshit.
Sorry to make you look foolish, but you walked right into it.

[renie408]

60. Would you please source your comment that Carter's statements

about Ford on his death were merely for form and were not sincere?

Please don't tell me you pulled that out of your 'bunghole'? (charming choice of words, BTW) *sigh* Another illusion shattered.

[calzone]

66. I didn't base it on any source

Boy, you really need things laid out for you in the most simplistic, fundamental terms don't you?
*sigh* I base my assertion on common knowlege and common sense. you're asking me to provide a source to prove the innermost thoughts of Carter? More bullshit.
All I need is the fact that he was critical of Ford at the time he was in office. That's why Carter being close friends with Ford doesn't make sense to me.
Now, is that simple enuf? Want to contribute any more fluffery?

[renie408]

70. Hey, SYBIL, isn't that exactly what you are asking Michigan to do??

And for chrissakes, you call ME simple when you state the fact that they were 'critical' of each other while in office and politically active as your evidence for why they couldn't become friends AFTER having been in office??

Helllooo??? Seen the pics of Clinton and Bush I together?

What are you? Twelve?

[calzone]

76. Huh?

Listen.....Usually, when misdeeds and incompetance are called out by one man against another, that ain't exactly, well, friendly. Yep, that's one of the things I use to come to my conclusion. What really reinforces my conclusion is when naysayers substitute sophistry and bullshit for real debate on the issue.
And maybe you can tell me how Clinton being seen with Bush 1 on a humanitarian tour makes them close friends. The same protocol applies.

[renie408]

78. Hey, Google IS your friend!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6803476/site/newsweek/

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050219/news_1n19pair.html


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-28-golf_x.htm?csp=34

That last one talks about them playing golf in Maine together. Gee, Maine is kinda far from Indonesia, isn't it?

(edited because I screwed up some pasting)

[renie408]

83. Calzone, feel free to PM me if you can back up your claims. I am sure this thread will be long gone

by time I get back here. If you actually can come up with something post-office that proves that Carter and Ford had any real degree of animus, let me know.

I strongly suspect I will NOT be hearing from you.

[MichiganVote]

62. Google is your friend. Look anything up your heart desires.

Start with the quotes of Jimmy Carter.

[renie408]

64. I have been assured that just 'a little research' is all that will be

necessary to refute any comments made by Carter today.

[MichiganVote]

67. Well if all that's needed is "a little research" why are you and I so important?

No, I think this kid has a crush on us. A big, fat, bone crushing, crush on two of the most fabulous people on this string. And I'm flattered, truly flattered that anyone would take the time to so completely turn into a nutjob over the words, friends or friendship. Positively worthy of a freeper award.

[renie408]

71. OMG! Now I KNOW I love you!!!

I haven't had this much fun in...forever.

[MichiganVote]

73. :) Same here.

[ronnykmarshall]

32. and you know the Ford's and Carter's personally I take it?

[calzone]

37. Please try to keep up. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

45. Oh I guess you told ME!!

Wow! You're gooooooodddddd!

[MichiganVote]

50. Would you like to introduce me?

[corkhead]

6. I think a lot of it has to do with the revisionist historians in the corporate media

I had to shut the radio off this morning. I was tired of hearing over and over how he "healed a nation". I think you are merely witnessing a frustration based backlash, which I will myself confess to participating in.

Don't worry, in a day or so we have something new to club each over the head with. We could try to precipitate one...

Lets start another "Smokers deserve no rights" thread.

[WinkyDink]

7. Not EVERY SINGLE Republican to hold office has been the spawn of Satan.

I still wouldn't hitch a ride on their backs to cross that river. Just sayin'.

[renie408]

10. Hey, I am leaving the door open for the fact that SOME of them have been. n/t

[Tin Man]

8. Jimmy Carter is a neocon double-agent

...I mean, why else would Carter speak such kind words of Gerald Ford?












:sarcasm:

[MichiganVote]

11. folks, Gerald Ford was not a dim bulb. Grad. U of M, Yale Law

Began a practice, after a year enlisted in the military in 1942. Returned to begin career in law and politics. 25 years in Congress.

[MidnightWind]

17. After W, everyone looks good in comparison.

Ford was adequate as a caretaker for the remainder of Nixon's term. The American people got it right in 1976 though when they voted for Jimmy Carter.

[MichiganVote]

19. And wrong again with Reagan. Ohhhh boyyyyy

[durtee librul]

25. Oh now wait a minute MIvote

Don't go say that becuase he had a bunch of pretty papers with gold seals hanging on the walls he was an ok guy....

Think to the current resident of the wh.......he has 'papers' too.

I am old enough to remember Ford and while he was ok, he wasn't the best and he wasnt the brightest....some of the slips he made were precursors of the great Dan Quayle...and as far as him being a great athlete, he had scores of injuries as well if my memory serves me right on that count. I seem to remember him clocking someone with a golf ball.

I will say that I never found him to be 'mean spirited' and I certainly can find no place where he stood at a podium and either yelled or grinned like some hyped up crack ho...

I even have one of his 'WIN' buttons in my collection - Remember the disasterous campaign of 'Whip Inflation Now?' I do. I also remember having a mortgage with 17% interest.

I won't speak ill of the dead and will go as far as to say, I hope he is resting in peace. He tried to do the right thing, but again was surrounded by some really really DUMB people. He had a lot of personal demons (as we all do) to deal with while performing one of the worst jobs to have in this country.

[MichiganVote]

28. So somebody said he had pretty papers???

Those are called college degrees. Ford earned them and used them. Many people do. A pup has papers and shits on them. Are you suggesting that Ford did the same? I don't recall saying Ford was "an ok guy" in my post. Do you?

You say,
"Think to the current resident of the wh.......he has 'papers' too."

So? I don't recall the thrust of this string to be about *. To understand Ford, one must understand the area from which he came. Not Bush country, just west michigan. A plain, fiscally conservative, heavily church going calvinist / catholic area.

"I am old enough to remember Ford and while he was ok, he wasn't the best and he wasn't the brightest."

At issue was the assertion that he was a dim bulb, not whether he was the best and the brightest. Altho' it was recognized that he was a very good athlete while at U of M and later was a very proficient skiier. One would expect injuries among serious athletes.

"I also remember having a mortgage with 17% interest."

The direct result of the Nixon admin., not the Ford admin. As to the buttons...kinda small to label a guy a loser on the basis of a button. But who knows? Plenty of people seem to like wearing them every election cycle.

"I won't speak ill of the dead and will go as far as to say, I hope he is resting in peace. He tried to do the right thing, but again was surrounded by some really really DUMB people. He had a lot of personal demons (as we all do) to deal with while performing one of the worst jobs to have in this country."

Washington has always been full of the dumb, the bums, the crooked, the perverse, and the very, very courageous. Ford may have many things or failed to be many things but he was not a crook, he was not preverse and he was not a quitter. For a guy who never aspired to be president and found himself there with a shitload of problems...well...he could have done worse, but he did better than many supposed he would have.

[B Calm]

23. As we speak, the repukes are doing their best at building a Ford legacy

when there is nothing to brag about!

[originalpckelly]

29. Old Saying: If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I would be completely outraged if anyone went after Carter or Clinton like this. I'm ashamed that people would do it to a man who just died.

[BlooInBloo]

31. That's high on my list of all-time-most- asinine-sayings-EVER....

... prolly competing with "There's no such thing as a stupid question" for the #1 slot.

[Sparkly]

36. I think there are times it's a good motto. nt

[renie408]

38. I have to admit, this place would be as dead as Gerald Ford

if people were restricted to only saying nice things.

And GOD, I agree with you about the stupid question thing.

[BlooInBloo]

33. For my $, Digby's the best on the subject (i.e., my usual opinion)...

...

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_digbysblog_archive.html#116724077646265635

Triply fair, honest, and tasteful.


And then also his new post on Dole:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_digbysblog_archive.html#116726094571565642

[tnlefty]

39. My republican father despised Ford for pardoning Nixon...

He wasn't a fan of Jimmy Carter's either.

I'll always remember the night that the evening news was on and it was announced that Ford had pardoned Nixon and my Dad went ballistic. I also remember the day that he walked through my back door and began railing on the Clinton pardons, Mark Rich's in particular. I listened to his ranting and when he asked why I wasn't outraged over Rich, I calmly replied that I was still dealing with my outrage over Ford's pardoning of Nixon.

His response, "I'd forgotten about that after Nixon died, but we still should have had the opportunity to tar and feather him, and then send him to jail."

A die-hard republican who still hadn't forgotten, why should I?

[renie408]

41. Nobody has asked you to forget. Nobody has asked you to join the Gerald Ford Fan Club

The only thing I am commenting on is the, to my mind, bizarre vituperative attacks that some DU'ers have instigated against other DU'ers for saying things as innocent as 'Ford was a nice guy'.

[tnlefty]

49. Well perhaps I would need to see the bizarre, vituperative attacks

that some have made. I've seen many misconstrue criticism of his actions, try to label any questioning of his actions as purely partisan, etc.

I don't really think that Ford was a nice guy, and I've come into contact with republics (I lived with my Dad) who were furious over the course of events at that time. I've even had close relationships with some who were furious over Iran-Contra, but I suppose none of their actions mattered, nor that republics were angry either?

[renie408]

52. Ok. n/t

[Sparkly]

42. I agree -- the pardon was a mistake

but Ford was hardly the devil incarnate!!!

He paid for his decision, and the Republican party paid for the entire fiasco.

And, call me old-fashioned, but the vitriolic attacks on him on the day of his death seem over-the-top to me.

Thanks for your post.

[renie408]

44. I don't know enough about the political climate of the time

to form an opinion. I have earmarked some of the sites people have mentioned on Ford and am going to read them when I have a chance. I have heard both that the pardon was a mistake and that it was the right thing at the time to get the country moving forward. It probably depends on who is doing the looking back as to how they see it. My mother told me that she thought it was the right thing to do. But then she is one of those people who avoids any kind of confrontation, so that gels with her personality.

[Sparkly]

46. I'm glad you said that.

I was young at the time, but thought it was a mistake; my parents did, too.

Husb2Sparkly posted on this just recently, saying that he thought at the time it was the right thing, but in retrospect he thinks it was a mistake. (I'll see if I can find that post fwiw.)

I think the idea was that the country had a lot on its plate. People did go to jail over Watergate, but putting an already disgraced, resigned president through more would have preoccupied the country when there were other things to contend with. Others believed it was just unseemly somehow to have a past president facing the prospect of jail (if indeed it would have come to that). Everybody was in an uproar, and Ford decided to sweep it off the table -- which many of us felt was akin to sweeping it under the rug.

However, Ford paid for that politically.

The situation with BushCo is quite different, but I think the current zeitgeist is reflecting on all things corrupt, illegal, whitewashed, and otherwise swept under rugs. Impeachment now makes more sense than it ever did, even then; the Iraq invasion was largely conceived and promoted by former Ford administration people; and we all want accountability for today's crooks.

One more big difference: Nixon's crimes were bad, certainly, but their effects weren't going to continue on and on and on, whatever happened to him. In other words, Ford had a choice of whether to have them preoccupy the nation for years, or not. BushCo's crimes, however, have effects that WILL go on and on and on for decades, no matter what does or doesn't happen to him. They ARE the focus of the nation and they need to be. Does that make sense? I see that as an important distinction.

Anyway, I appreciate your reserving opinion until you consider it longer. Honest opinions vary, but I worry about people jumping to judgments without perspective on the time as it was then. :hi:

[renie408]

47. Another thing about Bush....

Bush's crimes didn't stay home. They went a-wandering. Bush is probably the worst thing that has happened to the entire world since Hitler. I am not comparing Bush to Hitler, per se, just that they both had a negative global impact.

I think this time around, an impeachment (handled with care and deliberation) would be the right thing to do. I actually think it would be nearly as good for the GOP as it would be for us.

[Sparkly]

53. Definitely.

Holding BushCo accountable would make a statement about our country to the world. (And letting them all off the hook makes another statement about our country to the world!) Their disasters are FAR farther-reaching than anything Nixon ever dreamed of doing.

[cboy4]

54. K&R

:patriot: :kick:

[ChiciB1]

69. I Have NO Thoughts Regarding Ford.... I Didn't Watch ANY OF THE

news coverage today! NONE! Not one word! Can't wait til the hoopla is over though, but am glad I have a DISH! For me it's kind of a yawn. I don't think he was bad, I just guess I never really paid very much attention to him. And yes, I was active politically when he pardoned Nixon!

Ford just never registered for me in any way, I don't know why. He didn't really make me mad, and he didn't make me glad. He was there, then he was gone!

Things sure have changed since then though!

[renie408]

75. This is kind of where I was at.

I never gave Ford a whole lot of thought. Little did I know how much of a corrupt murdering bastard he was. After today I am thinking he is right up there with Bush. Who knew??

[ChiciB1]

85. Looks Like We Blinked, 'EH? n/t

[AZBlue]

86. I'm going with Carter too!

Some people here just need someone to tear down - helps them with their own insecurities. It's sad, particularly in this case.