Before this week did you know that Ford gave approval and aid for genocide in East Timor

[ConsAreLiars]

The history of Indonesia and East Timor is not widely known here in the US. Indeed, the history of the US is not very well known and rarely reported by the Corpulent Media. Very briefly, the first President of Indonesia following their independence ruled for 20 years and in 1965 was overthrown in an "anti-communist" military coup in which a half million or so were killed. Suharto became a close friend to and dependent on US imperialism.

In 1975 Ford and Kissinger gave their approval for Suharto to invade and take over the neighboring country of East Timor, and assured him that the arms supply from the US would continue. Somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000 were killed (the 100,000 figure is from a tally of recorded killings) -- a fifth to a third of the population. Independence was nominally restored 1n 1999, but East Timor remains destabilized.


From http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/
===================================================
Ford and Kissinger took great pains to assure Suharto that they would not oppose the invasion. Ford was unambiguous: “We will understand and will not press you on the issue. We understand the problem and the intentions you have.” Kissinger did indeed stress that “the use of US-made arms could create problems,” but then added that, “It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self defense or is a foreign operation.” Thus, Kissinger’s concern was not about whether U.S. arms would be used offensively—and hence illegally—but whether the act would actually be interpreted as such—a process he clearly intended to manipulate.(26) In any case, Kissinger added: “It is important that whatever you do succeeds quickly.”

Indeed, timing and damage control were very important to the Americans, as Kissinger told Suharto: “We would be able to influence the reaction in America if whatever happens happens after we return. . . If you have made plans, we will do our best to keep everyone quiet until the President returns home.” Kissinger also asked Suharto if he anticipated a “long guerrilla war,” apparently aware that a quick military success would be easier to spin than a long campaign. Suharto acknowledged that there "will probably be a small guerrilla war" but he was cagey enough not to predict its duration.
===================================================

The point of the poll is partly to get a sense of how people here view that part of our history, but also to encourage people to give some thought to how the past has shaped our present world.

[Lex]

1. At this point, I don't give a damn.

In all honesty, I'm tired of the piling on Gerald Ford.

Bad stuff, good stuff. Whatever.

[ConsAreLiars]

13. Right. The facts don't matter. Don't wanna sully your pretty mind with such things.

Whatever.

[Lex]

32. I already knew about it. You missed my point completely.

Not surprised.

[rman]

25. Tired of US supported genocide?

Who cares, right?

[Lex]

33. Wow, great way to miss the point.

Try re-reading again slowly.

:eyes:

[rman]

34. I think your point was this genocide is about Ford,

rather than about the people of East Timor.

Which i think misses the point, which i was trying to point out to you. It seems that you didn't understand it.

[babylonsister]

2. Yep, at 1:42am yesterday! This is DU!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2983141

[ConsAreLiars]

6. I edited the poll question to specify "Before this week" since that was my intent.

In reading DU today I noticed a few people persistently complaining about posts that bring out some of the facts about Ford's actions, and wondered how many had actually known some of the details of that 2-1/2 years of US history. (I see they are still at it.) The document cited above was kept secret until 4 years ago, and the official line had been that this was just some regional thing.

[babylonsister]

7. I was just letting you know that it had been posted before. And FWIW,

I don't really care about Ford. We have bigger fish to fry. I'm looking forward to 2007, though I have given a thought or two to his family and his lovely wife who lost her best friend. That must hurt terribly.

[BlueStater]

3. Yes

This is only about the six billionth time this has been mentioned today.

[ConsAreLiars]

14. Common knowledge?

OK. If so, it makes one wonder why so many are posting defenses of this particular butcher. His crimes don't rival those of his predecessor - you know, the guy who killed a million or two and then chose him for VP, but that paltry showing hardly seems like the best case for arguing that he was a decent human being. He was a mass murderer. Just not as effective as his good buddy.

[cali]

26. Butcher?

You're full of it. And your poll question is as well. You do realize that if you call Ford a butcher, you have to call Carter a butcher for the very same reasons, don't you? Or did that escape your brilliant analysis?

[ConsAreLiars]

27. Are you referring to the Carter/Brzezinski plan to fund and arm the Islamic Fundiies

against the Soviet Union. Yeah, that was a bright and benevolent act. (Not.) Worked out real well, at least for the religious crazies, if not for the people of Afghanistan, or the occupants of the WTC. Actions have consequences. In Carter's defense, he was naive and short-sighted. Ford was openly willing to authorize the invasion of East Timor in the name of multinational capitalism, and knew what Kissinger intended and where his loyalties lay.

[cali]

31. Carter supported

the Indonesian action in E. Timor longer and with more resources than Ford did. He supported The thugs in El Salvador even after they killed Archbishop Romero. So it wasn't only the support and training his admin offered the Afghanistan fundies.

President Carter, who came to office in early 1977, not long after Indonesia invaded and annexed the tiny island nation of East Timor, increased military aid to the Indonesian dictatorship by 80%. This equipment including OV-10 Bronco counter-insurgency aircraft that was crucial in the rounding up of much of the country’s civilian population into concentration camps. Most of the 200,000 East Timorese deaths as a result of Indonesia’s occupation took place during the Carter Administration, in large part as a result of this military aid."

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1018-06.htm

[saracat]

4. I also don't give a damn. The man did more good than bad and I am

disgusted by these kind of posts.There is NO perfect president and there are NO perfect public officials. and I doubt these whining posters have ever contributed as much as some of our public officials.Gerald Ford needs to be remembered as the decent king of Republican that existed before the Bush era. He does not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as Bushco, but some just hate everyone that doesn't meet their idea of perfection.And they need to grow up IMHO.

[Moochy]

8. Well I'm disappointed by these posts

Head meet sand.

for those not quite so interested in ignoring history. here is an east timor timeline:

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/1504243.stm
1974 - Anti-Fascist revolution in Portugal leads to promise to free colonies, encouraging parties to prepare for new future.

1975 August - Portuguese administration withdraws to offshore island of Atauro.

1975 October - Five foreign journalists killed along border with West Timor, allegedly by Indonesian troops.

1975 November - After brief civil war, Fretilin (Revolutionary Front for an Independent East Timor) declares East Timor independent.

1975 December - Indonesia invades, using its fight against communism as a pretext. It annexes territory as its 27th province, a move not recognised by the UN.

Strong resistance to Indonesian rule followed by repression and famine in which 200,000 people are thought to have died.

[ConsAreLiars]

16. Who is whining other than you?

I'm just pointing out the facts about what that man did. I doubt anyone here supported that genocide, maybe you did, I doubt it, but Ford did. It is not about being perfect, it is about complicity in mass murder. Get the difference? No? Well, the people of East Timor might be able to teach you, if you would listen. See the Pilger film referenced in post #11 if you can. I will assume you will not watch it, since it seems to conflict with your view of Ford as a hero of sorts.

[saracat]

18. Sigh. All presidents do something we don't like.Gerald Ford at

least attempted to protect the US. I am not really interested in a decades old problem in East Timor. We have enough stuff going on today to constantly reference Timor. And even so, Ford was a much more decent human being than Bush. Whatever. None of us on this board have contributed as much to this country as Ford.Ted Kennedy honored him with a profile in courage for a reason and Carter considered him a friend.Their educated opinions are worth more than the anonymous nasties on DU.

[ConsAreLiars]

20. "Protect the US" ????

How does supporting the slaughter of a couple hundred thousand people (you know, human beings sort of like you, well, sort of - your life is surely worth more than theirs, don't you think?) on some remote island protect the US? Or make one "decent?" Too much Corp propaganda in your diet, I suspect. If you listen to Ford's own words he was not interested in protecting the US, he was defending "free enterprise" or some such euphemism for corporate global power. He had that much in common with Clinton and Carter, but he used Kissinger methods. That is the difference. He was a murderer. He supported Pinochet. He prolonged the Vietnam murders as long as possible. Not "decent" by any standards I know.

[saracat]

21. Again, Carter and Kennedy's opinions matter more than those of DU.

[ConsAreLiars]

23. To paraphrase: "The facts don't matter."

Whatever some politician says is more important to you than the murder of a couple hundred thousand brown/yellow skinned foreigners. OK. That's your value system. Live well and prosper. I suspect that sums up your ethics.

[saracat]

29. my "ethics"are not in question.At least I am not attempting to shove

my "ethics" and "value system" down the throats of others at the expense of a dead president who tried to do his best for a troubled nation. And while they may be imperfect, I doubt that many consider Carter and Kennedy Some politicians". And yeah, what a Nobel Peace Prize winner says has more value to me than an anymous poster.I kind of like Nelson Mandela and Ghandi as well.Martin Luther King was alright as well.I don't suppose any of those would meet the ideal of ideological "purity". either.One wonders what some posters have contributed to this nation that they are able to be so judgemental of the actions of others. I am sure they were briefed by the highest rankings of the intelligence available at the time before they arrived at their fact driven conclusions. :sarcasm: Some of the same posters would see Carter and Clinton tried for war crimes as well.I would suppose that sums up their ethics, and moral system which is rooted in an arrogance that allows only their view of right to prevail.

[Critters2]

5. Okay, I give. Gerald Ford was evil incarnate and the world is a step

closer to being paradise now that he's dead.


Happy now?

[Moochy]

9. The Straw Man Says

Hay!!

[ConsAreLiars]

17. Do you spend a lot of time building straw men

to do battle with? Apparently. You might want to divert some of that energy into reading comprehension exercises. Lots of time.

(edit typo)

[Dr.Phool]

10. I heard Amy Goodman speak about how she was beaten with M-16s

And nearly killed by Indonesian troops as they massacred a funeral procession around her.

This kind of thing just seems to follow Kissinger where ever he goes.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. Amy Goodman recounted her experience on this archived show

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/13/1517231&mode=thread&tid=25

The Pilger documentary "Death of a Nation" is available at http://chomskytorrents.org/ if you search for "Timor" (and use a bittorrent client).

[Disturbed]

12. The US Corp Media didn't spend much time on that.

Most Americans are not aware of it and if they were most likely wouldn't care about it.

Any Pres. of the US that dies must be venerated by the Corp Media because it is unpatriotic not to do so.

[rman]

22. "Death of a Nation" on video.google:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-9118496582943064758&q=John%20Pilger

[ConsAreLiars]

24. Thanks for the link!

I've only seen excerpts. I'll watch it tomorrow.

edit to add: the torrents often take a day or two to DL - the potential of that tech is still a bit more promise than reality. So far, Youtube and Google Video have been much quicker.)

[donheld]

15. Anyone who watches Democracy Now! as all good DUers should

Knows about this dirty little episode quite well.

[ConsAreLiars]

19. Indeed. Yet even though it is available to anyone with net access

or several hundred other broadcast media, it seems that there are still a few on DU who buy into the Corporate Media fiction of Ford as a "decent" man. It is not a question of being personally affable or inoffensive, but his actions and their consequences. He continued the slaughter in Vietnam until the Congress denied him funds, and then East Timor. And the pardon and cover-ups early on, of course. And he followed Kissinger, and gave Cheney, Rumsfeld, Baker, and Poppy a hold on power.

But some still argue that he was "decent" and pointing out these Inconvenient Truths is somehow inappropriate. Puzzling, to be kind.

[fujiyama]

28. I was already aware of Ford's actions

but was more surprised by the continued military support by the Carter administration. Though, of course, it's also worth remembering that Carter initially started funding the Mujihadeen as well...and the El Salvedor government as well...and they were pretty awful.

Ironically for all the shit Clinton gets from liberals, he supported less reprehensible regimes than most presidents before him. Granted, he did become president after the Cold War, so there was less of a "reason" to support such regimes.

I think the one thing to take away from this is the extent of horror the disastrous series of policies (many of which were started by Kissinger) that continued for many years after he left office. Kissinger himself plays some part in several genocides (Bangladesh - probably the least remembered, East Timor, escalation of Vietnam, Cambodia, etc). Hell, the guy wanted to normalize relations with the Taliban at one point.

Ultimately, US Cold War policy should be remembered as some of the most awful periods of US foreign policy causing the deaths of millions - from both parties. Partisanship is one thing, and so is patriotism, but this unwillingness to accept the truth is bizarre.

It's easy for someone to say they don't want to "deal with East Timor"...Of course it's just as easy to say the same thing about Darfur today.

[Wetzelbill]

30. I believe Clinton called Suharto: "Our kind of guy" too nt