On Speaking Ill Of The Dead

[Pab Sungenis]

The recent passing of Gerald Ford has ruffled a lot of feathers, because of his controversial pardon of his predecessor, Richard Nixon, and a number of other acts that he may or may not have committed as President.

The question has been raised: "are we to only say good things about someone just because they died?" The logical, immediate answer is no. Someone's history does not need to be whitewashed by their death. Quite the contrary, in fact; a person's passing opens the door to a lot of discussion about their place (or lack of same) in history. The question is when and how this discussion should take place.

Please remember that when a person, any person, dies, a hole is left in this world. There are always people who are left behind who are personally affected by another person's death. Each person who dies is a parent, a sibling, a child, or a friend to someone else, and their passing touches those people in a way only someone who has lost a loved one can truly understand.

Gerald Ford is gone. There will be ample time for history to judge him for good or for ill. There will be plenty of opportunities for us to rehash and debate Watergate, East Timor, Mayaguez, "W.I.N.," and everything else that arose from Ford's short tenure in the White House. But for now, there are others to think about.

Now is not the time to worry about Gerald Ford. Now is the time to think about Betty, Michael, Jack, Steve, and Susan. Now is the time to consider those who knew Gerald Ford as a friend. They are going through a loss right now, and have to come to grips with not having Jerry there with them any longer. They deserve a chance to say goodbyes and get their lives back on track.

This is why there are mourning periods: not for those who have gone, but for those who are left behind. You do not need to say good things about Gerald Ford if you don't want to. But now is not the time to say bad things about him, either. Think of the family, think of the friends, and show them some respect. We have the rest of our lives to debate Jerry Ford. They no longer have any time with him.

Just my two cents. Thank you.

[flakey_foont]

1. Well Put

Thank You

[wryter2000]

2. Happy to give you a second recommendation n/t

n/t

[BushOut06]

3. Gerald Ford will be the answer to future trivia questions

Nothing more, really. He'll be a footnote in history. This isn't a mean thing to say about him, simply the honest, objective truth. He'll take his place among the plethora of US presidents who aren't remembered for very much, other than occupying the White House for a given period of time.

[malaise]

4. Please send this to MSM re

James Brown.

[architect359]

6. Why? This post and thread is about Ford.

I think that you should write one and send it to the msm. That'll do more good and saying it here.

[rubberducky]

5. Thank you.

Let the man "rest in peace". No matter how any of us feel about "the" pardon, it is done and over. We can not change it.

[Conscious Confucius]

7. People here act like Republicans are subhuman

which is precisely the way Republicans consider us. Beyond politics, beyond pardons and beyond ideologies, Gerald Ford was a human being, and should be respected as such.

[Javaman]

10. So by that logic any human deserves my respect?

Does that include hitler, stalin and mao? They were monsters, but never the less human, so do they fall into a special category? If so that violates your statement.

I respect the office of the president, however, I do not feel required to respect someone out of plain humanity. Ford was a bumbling republican opportunist, who pardoned his fellow repuke nixon, not because it would be good for the nation, it was only for the good of the republican party, which would have disintegrated if the investigation and trail followed. period.

And as a result we now have a repuke party that feels they have carte blanche to do as they want and care nothing for their consequences.

So I will speak ill of the man all I want. Because of this single act on his part, we as a nation are suffering because of it.

[crispini]

31. Yes.

Even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were human beings. Even the worst villain has a streak of goodness somewhere.

[Javaman]

47. Sorry, you lost me and probably a good portion of humanity with that

rational.

Yeah, hitler loved his dog, what a great human. Stalin loved cigars, what a great human. Mao loved green tea and never brushed his teeth, what a great human. :sarcasm:

Sorry, when people such as these commit crimes against humanity; any and all potentially redeeming "values" they might have had, mean nothing against the crimes they have committed against society and the world.

Sorry but the last time I checked we are still all mortal. And as a result still suffer from wounds to the flesh and soul.

As the psychologists at Nuremberg stated, "a monster is a person without empathy". So therefore, these three pigs deserve nothing but mine and societies disdain.

Ford was a pig, and a republican enabler, he cared nothing of this nation and only about opportunism.

And at first opportunity, I will find his grave and dance on it.

A charleston comes to mind.

[crispini]

48. I'm sorry for you then.

"All sentient beings without exception have the Buddha nature." This doesn't mean that I condone what Hitler, Stalin or Mao have done. It means that I recognize that they, like I, are human, and as such, worthy of respect, as are ALL human beings. It doesn't mean I approve of their actions.

[Javaman]

49. Ahhh I see doing the higher power philosophical stuff...

well, what ever works for you.

Personally, seeing people paying for the hell they put us all through in this mortal life satisfies me to no end. :) (however I don't believe in the death penalty, go figure?)

And extrapolating on your belief, if there is some sort of afterlife or reincarnation, he will pay in that respect as well, either by burning in hell as some choose to believe or returning as some burdensome creature in another life as others believe.

either way, he's dead and that makes me happy. :)

[crispini]

50. Well, I will confess to a bit of schadenfreude at times myself.....

not all that evolved yet I guess. ;)

[Warren Stupidity]

23. And for the 1,000 time: he was a nice guy.

And a lousy president. I respect Ford as a nice guy. When I am told that he was a great president I have to object. That does not make Ford subhuman, it makes him a lousy president.

[Conscious Confucius]

37. Criticize his presidency fully, that is more than fine.

That doesn't mean dancing on his grave would be appropriate, as many here would suggest. Besides, Ford was hardly Joseph Stalin. FDR, my favorite president, could easily be presented more negatively than Gerald Ford.

[951-Riverside]

42. Hitler was a human being too.

What say you now Conscious Confucius?

[Tom Joad]

8. I did not know Betty, Michael, Jack, Steve, and Susan were DU members.

My condolonces to all of you.

[seabeyond]

9. recommended. well said. thank you. what a person says,

how they respond or act towards this death, is not indicative of ford, but a reflection of self.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. I reflect that I have a very low tolerance for bullshit. nt.

[DemoTex]

11. "Nil mortui dire nisi bonum" (Of the dead, say nothing but good).

The evil that men do lives after them;The good is oft interred with their bones.
William Shakespeare

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Funny that you quote from J.Ceaser.

After all it was Marcus Antonius' actions, including his eulogy after the assasination, that lead to the final defeat of the Republic. Perhaps a more realistic appraisal of the dead tyrant might have resulted in a different outcome?

[Rex]

12. This place got the same way over Reagan.

And I'm sure it will hold true for future POTUSs.

[SoCalDem]

13. As a person, he was an Okay guy, and I feel for his family, BUT

and it's a BIG but...

His family had him for NINETY THREE YEARS.. he lived a great life. He never had to decide to cut pills in half, or do without heat.. He never had to sleep on a rollaway in a daughter's home, in what used to be a kid's bedroom. he was not put away in a third rate nursing home.

Our "retired" politicians are treated like royalty..their misdeeds and stumbles carefully shoved under the closest rug.

When they pass, the griefgasm cranks up to fever pitch as media outlets try to outdo each other in their kind words and tributes.

Once the paroxysms of manufactured grief pass, it's "on to the next one", and there is never any measured conversation about policies they may have been responsible for.

Even the newly released tapes show not courage, but selfishness. A courageous pol would have released them immediately, when some soldiers' lives might have been saved. How many people died in Iraq in the 2 years "tha ruh-pordur, Woodruff" sat on these tapes?

Was Ford really afraid that the media would pillory a 93 year old former president?

When an unknown, but dearly-loved elder passes away, there is a sense of reverence about the event, but when a PUBLIC FIGURE..a PRESIDENT passes away, the public naturally will reflect on ALL the history of that person.

I do not recall GR Ford being pressured or kidnapped, and forced at gunpoint, to be our president for two and a half years.

There is always a price to pay..and that price is living a scrutinized life.

[freefall]

14. Well said. Thank you. n/t

[fishwax]

16. nice post

:thumbsup:

[calimary]

35. Agreed. Completely agreed. A public servant in the position of a

president simply OWES everybody. They are BEHOLDEN to everybody. They ARE subject to scrutiny. What they did and said impacted millions of lives, and cost a number of those lives as well. That puts them in a different position, in my view. I've been critical of Ford. Won't put him in lower-case letters, but I've been critical of him here, and as of his death. There is a lot of embroidery going on, and some rewriting of history. Granted, a lot of that may fade as the funeral fades into memory and everything returns to the here-and-now and a few more reality checks. But the fact that so many lives are impacted, I dunno - just makes it different in my view. You can appreciate a historical figure more completely, and more honestly, if the true story of his/her deeds and impact is fully vetted. That said, not everything I've mentioned about him has been 100-percent critical, and I am among the first to race to the room where the Betty Ford Fan Club is gathering. And I've said so.

It's not so much speaking ill of the dead. It's speaking truth of the dead. The WAY in which it's done can be modified, and made more sensitive and gentle, but the facts are there. And we are doomed as a successful nation if we forget them, rewrite them, or try to gloss over them.

[Straight Shooter]

39. Hear, hear! Kudos, SoCal Dem. Perspective is everything.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[fishwax]

15. The way Ford's legacy is framed will effect history

Criticizing him for the Nixon pardon or for the green light he gave Suharto is clearly a legitimate political tactic. The fact that he was dead does not make the decisions he made the correct ones, despite the tendency of the media to put the best possible spin on the earlier actions of such notable figures.

I can respect the personal loss of those who knew Ford or even who admired him from afar, but that does not require disengaging from the discussion of his legacy, nor does it require leaving the hagiographic claims about how he "healed the nation" unchallenged.

[PATRICK]

17. Marc Anthony school of manipulative eulogies

So the comparisons (plus personal anti-Iraq war comments) are rife with political application to the present. The noble Brutuses, in various seats of power, would rather keep things positive, no rabble rousing. As always the stage is set, but the forum is adjudicated to the advantage of Brutus with heavy editing, ground rules and only the clever manipulators of right wing non sequiturs and rationalizations allowed to sneak anything in.

So never fear. There are NO Dem Marc Anthonys simply because they are not manipulative would be autocrats for whom the current deceased is one of their own. There are plenty on the other side, midgets all, thankfully, with no traction like hatred, fear and revenge to use- so there is no life to their token sentiments- no particular advantage except the exercise of public prominence in unifed humane sentiments.

Now on to rigorous historians, seekers after elusive justice, people concerned about the patterns of protected cancer emanating from this particular defunct epicenter, their concerns are not ruled by sentiment, grandiose public concentration on the passing of one person, or the democratic common decency accorded in every human funerary ritual. They are not Fred Phelps shrieking opportunely into private grief for apostolic purpose, but advocates for unfinished business so that the closure includes truth and real resolution. To exclude these from the life or death of a public man who affected every post and civil society with his decisions out of the sentiment supposedly accorded to the commoners who died miserably from those decisions is an exercise in double standard duplicity for the sake of those benefiting from his legacies- that is, who are not his own family. In the false ceremonies of mulched over media we drown out the public giantism attached to the hyper-sentimentalized individual in such a way that both are hypocritically falsified and the dumb public Samson blinded once more.

Truth better serves the repose of the dead but the rites are for the grieving alone, truth be damned. The paradox that besets all imperfect human souls on both sides of the grave.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. Here here.

Now if I only knew what you just said.

[PATRICK]

33. Me too.

My brain needs some missing nutrients. I went from delving into predicting prime numbers to this post. Suppertime.

[NashVegas]

18. Yes, And No

When the dead's friends, family, and peers have the ear of the press it's not the same as when the guy down the block dies.

Obituaries often contain the info that goes down in the 'official record,' so to speak.

Pinochet left some people behind who cared for him, no doubt. But if they couldn't face reality about his dictatorship, there's no reason why anyone should keep their mouth shut and let his fans dictate the official record.

[AlienAvatar]

19. Great message, and I wish some responders

would actually read your words, and make an attempt to understand what your message is, before responding.

If I had to sum up what you said, I'd use your last paragraph. I can see no thoughtful, mature, argument to what was said there. It's a sentiment I would want to teach my children if I had any.

Thanks for the post. It's heartening to know people with views like yours are among us.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Actually I rather doubt the subject will ever come up again.

"We have the rest of our lives to debate Jerry Ford."

Ford played a minor role in a major historical event: the vietnam war era. His passing was indeed an entirely appropriate time for a politically oriented message board to debate his role in history, good bad or indifferent. Ford's role was so minor that most likely this subject will not come up again. How many times before Ford died have we discussed Nixon's pardon here? In my experience, not once. It was only in the last few days that I learned to my disgust that many here at DU buy into the revealed wisdom that the pardon was a 'good and noble act that healed a troubled nation'.

There will be no other time to debate this issue.

Ford's immediate family are almost certainly not tuned into DU, being dismayed by what is said here. How preposterous to imply that by debating Ford's place in history we are adding to the family's grief. Instead we here who refuse to go along with the revised new history of the Ford regime are met by over the top outrage from the self annointed posting police here at DU. Sorry, I'll continue to speak my piece.

[mopinko]

27. the warren stupidity must never sleep.

i agree with you.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. it cat naps though.

thanks.

[JackRiddler]

21. How long do you propose that this period of frontal lobotomy last?

Does Saddam get one next month? "Now is not the time to think of the invasions of Iran and Kuwait, but of Uday and Qusay and... oops."

[mitchtv]

22. It's not Ford

It's the coverage. I'm getting real tired,real fast. I might say something unkind

[Warren Stupidity]

25. Oh no!

Not here, the Ford family will be devastated.

[MockSwede]

28. Well said indeed

Cannot say anything more about that that wouldn't detract from it. 'Nuf said.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Here goes: how about Hitler?

I had to ask.

[patricia92243]

34. If it is pretty certain that none of Ford's family will be reading DU, is it o.k. to criticize

[damntexdem]

36. Speaking truth, that is 'ill,' of Ford is just what is needed.

The man couldn't even die and chew gum at the same time.

[AlwaysQuestion]

38. Rejoice! Another Republican gone to be with God. YES!llllll

Hot damn, sounds like you know Betty and the kids real well, and unless you do, you've just wasted two cents.

With the exception of those who are friends of the family, I don't think any of you should feel obligated to speak well of Gerald Ford in death. You may be sure that Mrs. Ford and children will not be relying on any of your support, although I'm certain she will later come out and publicly acknowledge the heartfelt sympathies she has received from her good husband's army of supporters (translated other politicians and sheeple)......and I will barf appropriately.

And I see the made for propaganda machine--mainstream media--is doing a bang-up job manipulating public opinion. If their mission wasn't so obscene, it would be hysterically funny, cuz ya have to know that the run of the mill are doing just as they are being bid--lapping this crap up--on queue. Mind numbing.

As for feeling sorry for Gerry's family, hold the pathos. They lived remarkably well off the public purse thanks to hubby and daddy's being the U.S.A's head cheese and former little cheese, albeit doing nothing much for the nation whose people filled the coffers upon which he generously fed for life.

That any of you feel he was a good family man in no way offsets his decision to pardon Nixon. In so doing, he proclaimed to all that a president is above the law--far, far above the law--unlike you peasants who must account and be responsible for your heinous, life threatening, unconscionable crimes against the state--like smoking marijuana or killing the parish priest. That he and Kiss-baby sanctioned the East Timor invasion by Indonesia is, on the other hand, admirable, however little known because the media characteristically unreported it. That around 350,000 East Timorians died as a result of the invasion--well, now, that doesn't count, does it?

That Gerry pulled together the likes of a Rumsfeld, a Cheney, a Bush and retained the murderous Kissinger should tell us that he was a poor judge of character and nation building skills. But, hot damn, he was a soft-spoken man, with much charm who loved his wife and kids and could play a respectable game of golf. Yes, we must respect a leader of that repute to be sure.

And now he's kicked the bucket. Instead of crying the crocodile tears, rejoice that we now have one less Republican. That the remainder should last as long is what I find depressing and mourn about.

[happydreams]

40. Ford was not very bright. That thing in the 76 debates about Easter Europe being

out of the Soviet influence was a doozy. It's something that Dubya would say if he could complete a sentence.

[Jim Sagle]

41. Fuck'm.

[ochazuke]

43. moral hazard

If people knew that you couldn't count on being treated with kid gloves after death, maybe they would act better in life.

As for Gerry: his body finally caught up with his brain.

[ToeBot]

44. Wow, you really think they read DU! Cool! nt

[calzone]

45. This speaks for me nicely...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1228-25.htm

I respect the intention to be compassionate. I don't always agree. Ford's family need not read negative comments, I'm sure they're already well aware of Gerald Ford's career & legacy. I wouldn't shout my disdain at his funeral, but in the halls of public debate I won't overlook tyranny.

[SaneInSC]

46. With great power

comes great responsibility. Ford was an ULTRA rare human being. A (formerly) living president of the United States. He was very old and I wouldn't have necessarily expected him to say anything publicly due to that factor. But to find out that he actually did go on record and ask that it be withheld...good riddance. We are better than that. I'll not mourn the peaceful, in his sleep passage of a 93 year old multimillionaire. Not when he could have changed at least a few minds, or made some bush/war supporters give a second thought to what was/is being done. People are actually being blown up daily you realize. Any thoughts as to their "feelings"? Or their THOUSANDS of family and friends?

And no, I wouldn't say any of the above to his family-it wasn't their fault nor did they have his position; although Nancy Reagan has shown how it could be tactfully done re: the stem cell research issue.

[4nic8em]

51. I have a hunch

that at this particular time, Gerald Ford doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks or says.

[Brazenly Liberal]

52. My family has been asked to tell the truth about me when I die.

My husband and I have prepared papers with instructions on how we want things handled if we should die and mine specify a preference for family and friends to tell the truth about me - the good, the bad, and the goofy.

Family and friends - those who hold you dear and are held close in your heart - aren't people who think you're perfect. They're people who know you, warts and all, and love you anyway. If they have to edit what they say about me after I'm gone, it's the same as saying the way I really was when I was alive wasn't good enough.

I like to think that on the whole, when the good and bad are totted up, I come out a bit ahead in the good column. If that proves to be not so, it's better to face the truth then, too.