Saddam being hung sickens me

[Erika]

Not only do I dislike a government entity deliberately "killing" a person, I oppose our take over of an Arab country and imposing our will on them. This will only produce more hatred and division, something that W is well known for.

[caligirl]

1. Bush just wants him hung to cover the bush crimes. Nothing personal.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. With All Due Respect, The Iraqi's Are Doing This Themselves.

Do you not think there are countless numbers of Iraqi's who are cheering this and have been anticipating this, and who have prayed for years that this day would come?

[caligirl]

7. On both sides, they are cheering for the deaths of the others, for

hundreds of years this has gone on. But now our young men and women will likely be even more at risk for ancient differences theat require a political solution. Our kids will likely pay an even graver price for this act of vengence. and it will settle nothing. Oops i forgot, it will make Bush feel even more god like.

[Justitia]

12. Not a person on this planet sees this as the "Iraqis doing this themselves"

with all due respect, that position is ridiculously naive or cravenly disingenuous.

Every sentient creature that walks upright has a full understanding that it is AMERICA that is executing the leader of a sovereign nation.

The kangaroo court and farcical show trial has fooled no one. Sure, there are always elements of mob justice in every country that want their grievances redressed.

But, that does nothing to eliminate the knowledge that AMERICA is executing the leader (for good or ill) of a sovereign nation.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. No, He's Being Executed In Iraq, By Iraqi's, With Thousands And Thousands Of Iraqi's That Support It

Yes, I know the administration's involvement and how they would've had it no other way. Not my point.

My point is that the naivety would be in thinking for a second that overall this isn't what the Iraqi's want. Countless thousands of them are going to be relieved by this and can't wait for it to occur. To ignore the the overwhelming sentiments of the Iraqi people and their suffering under him, merely because of such a strong dislike for shrubby and his hand in it, is not being responsible.

I also don't consider the trial to be nearly as fraudulent as some want to claim, though it was definitely full of circus like stunts and intimidations, but there was still plenty offered legitimately for the trial, though somewhat flawed, to have some legitimacy in that country.

Iraq has the death penalty. Whether you support the DP or not, can you honestly tell me that in a country with the DP, that Saddam would get away without being subjected to it? When you take into consideration all the horrendous acts he's perpetrated, how is that not up to the bar of what it would take for a court considering the DP to assign it? That doesn't mean you support the DP by acknowledging that. What I'm saying is that if others support the DP and can hand it out as a sentence, just what kind of brutal piece of shit would one have to be if Saddam didn't even rise up to that bar?

Let's face it: Even the most legitimate trial in the world would've found Saddam guilty enough to execute, if done in a court that offered execution as an option. I don't see how one could argue against that.

[Justitia]

19. To me, this has very little to do w/the Death Penalty, besides the act

but everything to do with an illegal invading / occupying aggressor executing the leader of a sovereign nation.

Let me put two issues aside immediately: I am NOT opposed to the death penalty in most cases (although I struggle with the position of the State as executioner) - but that is entirely within domestic affairs.

The issue of whether their leader was a "bad man", "bad leader", etc are not germaine to the question of whether one singular country has the right to execute the singular leader of another sovereign country.

THAT is where my objections lie.

No matter what your personal opinion of their leader, it's irrelevant. He was their leader for most of these people's lives. He is ethnically, culturally and socially one of their own. He will be executed by foreigners that invaded their country and killed their citizens indiscriminately. Imagine the psychological dissonance that must produce on a massive scale.

And once again, just because some Iraqis (maybe even a majority) may experience some level of emotional vengeance in his humiliating death, I don't believe for a moment that they claim this action as their own provenance. If that were the case, why did they never bring him to justice until WE took physical possession of him?

[daleo]

27. He is being executed by an Iraqi government installed by U.S. troops

and kept in power by U.S. troops. He is being executed on an American made gallows, in a prison controlled by U.S. troops.

[Infinite Hope]

24. Wrong. If we had released him to the Iraqis completely, they'd have drug him through the streets...

the first day. Our involvement merely slowed that process to push them toward using deliberation, no matter how hasty their first national murder trial was.

In terms of the trial, while surely we influenced it, I think it sets a better precedent than the one that would be set by him being drug through the streets by Shi'a.

We can hate Bush and all he's done while being realistic.

I want democracy work despite everything bush has done - I don't want everything to fail just to further prove his incompetance.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. Hear Fuckin Hear! Thank You.

:toast:

[Justitia]

26. I cannot believe anyone thinks this "trial" was anything but a joke.

As far as "hating Bush", that is nowhere in my responses so you can hardly dismiss my point on that specious charge.

I guess you believe that the Iraqis are not much more than pack animals that would have ripped him limb from limb - well, okay, that's your view. Do you feel much different if the scenario was GWBush in some back alley of some major metropolitan city late at night, somewhere in America? Plenty of folks "hate Bush" according to your post.

Anyway, back to my original and only point: Why is it ever a good idea for an occupying invader to imprison and execute the leader of a (formerly) sovereign country? How "realistic" is it to expect any good to come of it? Any sense of proper justice?

Edit: I forgot to ask - WHY in ALL the years of Saddam's reign, did they NEVER drag him "through the streets" as you put it? WHY do you only see that as a possibility AFTER he was taken into American custody? If all those Iraqis hated him and wanted him dismembered so badly for the last however many decades, WHY did they wait for us to imprison him?

[Infinite Hope]

31. After he was caught, many called for Saddam to be released for them to drag through the streets.

Perhaps you forgot.

[Justitia]

33. "After he was caught"? Man on the street interviews? Come on!

Be serious.

I don't like having Bush for a president.
I DO NOT want to be invaded by a foreign country to affect his removal.
I DO NOT want the aforementioned foreign invader to imprison him and hang him or put his death pictures in big-ass gold frames and parade them around for perverted pleasure.

I might tell my occupiers in "man on the street" interviews that I'm glad he's gone so they don't bomb my house to brick dust, even if I thought he was the worst president ever.

[daleo]

28. How long would Bush last if he walked down a Baghdad street unescorted?

He would be dragged down the street pretty quick too.

[Infinite Hope]

32. You're right. Now back to the regularly scheduled programming. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. And That Matters To This Argument How? That's A Completely Different Thread Topic.

The two points have nothing to do with each other.

[daleo]

35. The original post said Iraqis would drag Hussein through the streets

The implication was that must validate his execution. I am saying that they would be perfectly prepared to do the same to Bush, yet I doubt most of us would agree that validates Bush's being hanged.

[elehhhhna]

48. or a New Orleans or NYC steet, for that matter.

[fujiyama]

38. What nonsense

This trial and subsequent execution will simply have the appearance of "justice"...

How is this supposed to have any legitimacy considering, it is a government we more or less propped up by us?

A country wrecked by civil war and ethnic cleansing is no nation of laws.

[LittleClarkie]

61. Talked to them all, have you?

Disagree, but I might suggest not trying to speak for everyone on the planet. If they all get word, they might be quite cross at your presumtion.

Considering it is said that we taught them international law (odd since we tend not to follow it ourselves) it does seem that we lead the Iraqis by the nose toward this conclusion, as if they were children.

[Justitia]

63. Yeah, each & every one

:eyes:

[donheld]

29. Oh Pleeeease!

The Iraqis haven't done a thing "themselves" since we invaded. The whole world can see that.

[951-Riverside]

36. These countless numbers of Iraq's also want us out

...but that just isnt going to happen is it?

[sellitman]

49. The "Puppet Government " is doing this.

Doesn't count.

[eridani]

56. So why did they do it in the Green Zone?

Don't doubt that there will be great joy in Mudville, but this reminds me of nailing Capone for tax evasion. They didn't try him for any of his big crimes because those are the ones in which the US is complicit.

[eridani]

57. So why did they do it in the Green Zone?

Don't doubt that there will be great joy in Mudville, but this reminds me of nailing Capone for tax evasion. They didn't try him for any of his big crimes because those are the ones in which the US is complicit.

[eridani]

58. So why did they do it in the Green Zone?

Don't doubt that there will be great joy in Mudville, but this reminds me of nailing Capone for tax evasion. They didn't try him for any of his big crimes because those are the ones in which the US is complicit.

[HuffleClaw]

59. erm, yer joking ?

'The Iraqi's Are Doing This Themselves.' ???

[illinoisprogressive]

3. I agree

there are worse out there including W. We are the enemy. We are the morally bankrupt and the bad guys.
So, when do we hang W

[SoyCat]

4. I've been thinking about that all day. I can't help but feel sickened, as well.

I am never in favor of the death penalty. And, this invasion was simply not warranted.

[MGD]

5. I'm ambivalent. I want to see him hang but I don't want to see him become a martyr

and I really don't want to see more US soldiers dieing because of his martyrdom. I have no sympathy for Saddam himself however. He was little better than an out of control animal. Ultimately, I wish he had died by bombing before the invasion began. We tried but we failed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Very Well Said. I Agree.

[Usrename]

40. Who gives a crap about him?

This is about our country.

He is our prisoner of war.

This is both illegal and disgusting, and you don't even seem to notice.

[rman]

42. The US has supported dictators far worse than Saddam

and has itself contributed to genocides worse than anything Saddam has done.

As a matter of fact the US and all of the West were looking the other way when the Kurds were gassed. It's not that they didn't know; it was reported in the news. But it was in a time when it was in the interest of the US to support Saddam.

[mcctatas]

6. I agree with you...

even if it is technically the Iraqi gov't that hangs him, it still looks as if the US invaded an Arab nation, destroyed thier infrastructure, ignited ancient hatreds, and strung up thier leader. And O'reily is bitchin that the Iraqi's aren't grateful??? :wtf:

[az chela]

9. And exactly what do we prove by hanging Saddam???

We invaded his country and our madman president loves murdering people .He is responsible for killing thousands of our troops and Almost a million innocent Iraqi's.He also has destroyed their country and is stealing their oil.
Yah killing Saddam will justify all that,like hell it will.
It just proves how barbaric bushco is

[JackRiddler]

10. (You'll excuse this, given that it's serious but I cannot resist...)

His being hanged sickens me even more!

[atre]

11. LOL (nm)

[Erika]

13. Many countries are asking W to stop this execution

W is in charge of Iraq and to pretend otherwise is to be foolish.

[seriousstan]

14. Does nobody read "The Prince"? Regardless, he must die.

It was obvious almost 500 years ago. Try to argue the logic, Hussein must die.

[Justitia]

16. I'm in the group that believes it was a satirical work, esp after reading much more of Machiavelli

it's practically obtuse in it's obviousness.

And that makes your mention of it so much more painful in this circumstance - i.e., Bush probably reads it as a literal "How-To" manual and misses the irony completely.

[seriousstan]

18. Your's is , without a doubt, a minority view.

Mattingly is wrong.

[Justitia]

20. Have you read much of Machiavelli's other works? Those are what formed my opinions.

I only learned of Mattingly long after I had reached that opinion on my own.

To each his own, but in the entire context of Machiavelli's writings, it seems really obvious to me.

[seriousstan]

21. As I said, a minority view to be sure. But....there are a lot of dissidents here.

:toast:

[Justitia]

22. Well, who knows? Maybe I just HOPE it's satire. I like his earlier stuff better.

Maybe he got really weirded out after the torture and exile chapters of his life and fully believed it. :shrug:

I'll go with "sly satire" mixed up with "real observations" versus total mind-bending asshole.

:evilgrin:

[Dangerously Amused]

17. Agreed.

Bush will get his infantile rocks off watching Saddam hang. What a sick fuck.


While I don't agree with everything Saddam did, Bush is ten times worse. If anyone deserves hanging for war crimes, it's Bush. (Well, Cheney too. But Bush is ultimatey responsible.)


The irony/hypocrisy of this event will not be lost on the rest of the world.


I can only hope that justice will some day hold Bush equally accountable for his own war crimes.

[TomInTib]

23. "hung" or "hanged"?

BIG difference.

Know what I'm saying?

[ProfessorGAC]

47. I Think The Dictionary Now Says Both Are Acceptable

Although i was raised on "hanged" as the proper form of the word, i think the language has mutated.
The Professor

Edited because i forgot to answer your question: Yeah, i get what your saying. Pretty funny stuff!

[SeattleGirl]

30. It sickens me too.

I am NOT saying that I think Saddam is a peach of a guy -- he did some horrendous things when he was in power. But it sickens me nonetheless, for two primary reasons:

1) I am against the death penalty. Yes, people have done some horrid, despicable, evil things, but still, I cannot justify killing THEM as a way to atone for what they did. My preference is that they live, in minimal conditions, and take the suffering that comes with that.

2) The fact that Bush most likely WILL have a hard-on about the hanging, and knowing that people like him get a fucking thrill out of the murder of another person really sickens me.

Some of you may not agree with me, but that's what I think, and that's how I feel.

[OneBlueSky]

37. the invasion and occupation were crimes of IMMENSE proportions . . . so it this . . .

what gives us the right to invade and occupy a sovereign nation that had neither attacked nor threatened us and execute the head of state? . . .

[fujiyama]

39. I'm sort of stunned

by the blatant imperial arrogance our country has come to.

We invade a nation in a completely clear act of aggression with no justification.

We depose the leader (yes, he was a dictator and a thug and deserved to face justice but not under a court we established), and then eventually execute him.

This same man has been accused by the current sitting president of killing his father.

I really think this execution is the one thing Bush became president for. There is something very bizarre - like a real twisted Shakespearean play...

Weird times we live in...but as a few others have noted, the irony of this incident has not been lost around the world.

[Solly Mack]

43. Well said!

Thank you!!!

[Wiregrass Willie]

41. What role does Bush play ?

The question remains -- should the President of the USA give up a man to be lynched ?

It just occurred to me ---

When was the last time that the commander of an invading force turned a local leader over to the mob to be lynched ? Does a cross conjure up any event ?

Up until now the Republicans have cast George Bush as Jesus's younger brother. It looks to me like he is more reminiscent of Pontius Pilate.

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. I didn't realize he was that hung. :-) I think you mean "hanged". I, too, am sickened by it.

I don't have a problem so much with executing tyrants and despots and others who have ordered and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands... part of me would be often willing to do the execution myself for folk like Saddam, Milosevic, Pinochet, Amin, etc.

but mostly I am sickened because as human beings we shouldn't be executing people - we should jail them until they die.

And I am, in this particular case, mostly sickened by the fact that his death is too convenient for the Bushes and other crime families - with Saddam out of the way, it's gonna be all that much harder to prove the evil, criminal doings of the Bushies; proof that, hopefully, someday in some court (the Hague, I pray) we will need.

Killing Saddam kills one of our great witnesses against the BFEE et. al.

And it also shows that we haven't come very far as a species.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. I'm opposed to capital punishment, too, even for dictators, and even

more opposed to the execution being videotaped. :grr:

[LaBanty]

46. sure, why not

Saddam was no saint. Even when he was captured, the Iraqis were celebrating in the streets. I seriously doubt Bush, in all his wisdom </sarc> and planning ability </sarc>, gave each one five bucks to pretend to hate the murdering bastard. An Iraqi court found him guilty, and he was sentenced by an Iraqi court. No doubt, left in the streets after capture, he simply would have been murdered. There would have been a line a mile long and tickets sold just to take a stab at him. So - no - don't give Bush credit for manipulating public opinion about Saddam. He was hated and despised by many of his own people (particularly the ones he killed!) regardless of what Bush would like to have orchestrated. Saddam earned his reputation all by his lonesome.

But, if the price of admission to this "milestone" in Iraqi democracy was an invasion and occupation that has cost thousands of American, allied, and Iraqi lives - was this worth it to hang one murdering bastard? I hardly think so. Was it worth civil war? No. Was it worth instituting yet another backasswards, hostile, Islamic theocracy? No, not even.

Hanging Saddam won't change anything. He'll die, and CNN and all the media can blab about it for days. And then it's back to regularly scheduled programming of pointless death and destruction in Iraq. And, for that, Bush gets all the credit, with the locals' religious idiocy bringing up the rear.

Iraq is a stinking cesspool, and Saddam is but one turd being flushed. BFD.

[mirandapriestly]

50. What we've done there is worse than what he did

especially because we helped him do it.

[AngryAmish]

51. Pictures are hung, people are hanged

Looks like I get to be the usage nazi today.

[dogday]

52. If the Iraqis are practicing Democracy, then an appeal

is in order for Saddam, just as it is in this country... Has such an appeal been suggested or asked for, or even allowed by their law? Just curious :shrug:

I fear we will see both people cheering in the streets, and also riots in the streets as well for those who did back him.....

[librechik]

53. no kidding. I wish more people would wake up and realize the Nazis are in charge

especially certain people still in a position to do something about it.

I'm looking at YOU, Tony Blair! Oh, and YOU, Chief Justice John Roberts. Oh, and YOU, Sen. John Warner (R-Asshole)!

I'm going to assume that Pelosi is just waiting for her chance to pounce, to avoid anthrax attack (or worse) Hope I'm right.

[bullwinkle428]

54. Pisses me off that too many people fail to recognize U.S. complicity in the

barbaric acts that he committed, and failing to see things happening on a even worse scale even as we speak today (Darfur, anyone?)...

[Th1onein]

55. It sickens me, as well.

Where are the appeals?

[Clarkie1]

60. Hanging and worse has been going on in Iraq for a long time.

We can't expect to impose our own cultural values and norms on the Iraqi people.

[Gloria]

62. The whole sham of this Iraq adventure sickens me and how

long this has been brewing....Bush I, Bush II, the whole lot of them. I'm no fan of Saddam, but this all stinks. But, of course, if there had been a real trial at the Hague, it could have been very inconvenient for Bushco... It's pretty ironic that there were Iraqis saying things were better under Saddam, as bad as he was. That's how destructive we have been. Bush et al have destroyed an entire country. Where is the justice??