If Hitler were alive today, would you be against hanging him?

[LibraLiz1973]

Perspective.
If Hitler were alive today and had just killed millions of Jews, would you be against hanging him?

Is there any point where you are ok with the death penalty?



This is IN NO WAY a flame post. I'm totally serious.
Would you have a problem hanging Hitler?


To millions of Iraqis, Saddam IS Hitler. Do they not deserve justice?

The thing that makes ME angry is that

1. The USA ever supplied him with weapons
2. The USA was complacent and allowed him to kill his people
3. That he wasn't hung in 1991- which would have saved millions of lives
4. That we are involved in this at all.


I think it needed to be done, but it isn't a victory for US. It's still an unjust war.
Our troops are still dying for no reason.

But he had to go.


IMHO

[EstimatedProphet]

1. No

I'm against hanging Saddam Hussein to sweep the politics and US involvement under the rug. I also damn well wouldn't grab popcorn and poke even Hitler with sticks just to watch him squirm like the freepers want to do, and the media wants us to do.

[LibraLiz1973]

7. I guess I see it through my own lens

(as we all do)
and in my mind this is IN NO WAY sweeping the politics or our involvement under the rug.
In fact, it makes it EVEN MORE disturbing. Had we helped these people to take care of this issue in 1991
NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.
That's poor US leadership.


As for the Freepers...... they would poke a puppy with a stick and watch it hang if it was part of the Repub talking points for that day

[EstimatedProphet]

27. It's part of the politics

Had we helped these people...

One of the reasons this happened the way it did is to help sweep just that under the rug. People are asking questions now, and one of them will be why it is the elder shrub left Iraqis out to dry like he did. They may think we could have avoided the war (HA!) if we had gotten him out then. Also, Saddam can't now go into detail about how we were arming him all through the 80's, can he?

[LibraLiz1973]

37. I'd be $ that had he been taken out in 1991

GWB either wouldn't be President now... or we'd be in Iran.


Hard to know

[EstimatedProphet]

63. Maybe

[zanne]

145. It's impossible to judge when you don't know the truth...

I've never felt "informed" about Saddam and pre-2003 Iraq. I've felt spinned, preached to and lied to, but who actually is there to give us the truth? American media, Iraqi media, British media? They all reported through their own lens. I don't know if we'll ever know the truth.

[ck4829]

2. If Hitler had not been a coward and committed suicide

He would have received a fair trial at Nuremberg and found guilty of genocide and war crime charges, he would not have received the sham of a trial that Saddam got.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

30. He probably wouldn't have seen Nuremberg

I thought Nuremberg was for Nazis captured by the west. Hitler would have been secretly removed to Russia, and we would not find out what happened to him.

[Cleita]

120. That's possible, but unless they executed him secretely, I'm

sure the allies would have insisted on trying him. Remember Russia was our friend then. They wouldn't have gotten far in trying to send him to some gulag. There were still countries to divide up among the allies and Stalin would not have wanted to give that opportunity up for a defeated dictator. I think he would have handed him over to the allies to be tried in Nuremburg.

[CatWoman]

33. DING DING DING DING DING

Thank you for that.

The most sensible comment on this thread.

[blondeatlast]

149. Indeed. Not only that, we would have been made aware of his enablers outside of Germany--

which is why Saddam should have been tried in the Hague.

[Uncle Joe]

160. I agree with your post n/t

[Counciltucky]

3. It depends on various circumstances.

Reactions by Nazi sympathizers, etc.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibraLiz1973]

Well.... EOM

[AZBlue]

22. I don't think we're allowed to answer that....

[Maru Kitteh]

69. I don't see why not.

Indiscriminate killing of thousands of elderly, women and children. - Check.
Agression without provocation. - Check.
Torture and murder, secret prisons. - Check.
WMD used on the Iraqi populace - Check.


Feel free to add on, these were just the ones that jumped to mind.

[blondeatlast]

150. Exactly. Seen through an Iraqi's eyes, is there a lot of difference? They don't exactly

have an open and fair media either...

[Justitia]

5. Would he have been given an international trial, in an international court by disinterested parties?

You know, like The Hague?

[PsN2Wind]

6. So Saddam will be hanged any minute now

and the country he ruled is ruined. We've poured money and blood into that sand with no prospects for a favorable outcome. "But he had to go"??? "IT needed to be done"???? You appear to be a helluva lot more for this CF than you are against it.

[BlueJazz]

8. No..No..and No...I'm afraid I don't make exceptions to my rule of ...

"No Executions"

I don't believe in the Death Penalty...Period.

[LibraLiz1973]

17. I respect your opinion

and the fact that we both get to have one.

Saddam denied his people that.



I do understand where your coming from, I just feel differently

[RobofSWVA]

98. no for both hitler and saddam

I can not approve of killing anyone for any reason. Thou shall not kill doesn't have much wiggle room. This was clarified for Christianity by "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." To me that's Jesus saying "I know in the past there were certain things that demanded death as a penalty, but times have changed. Find another way." As a Christian I feel I must condemn capital punishment in all of its forms.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

130. So 11 million people dead in camps and you still don't think he owed his life for that?

Amazing.

[mondo joe]

148. If you are opposed to capital punishment on principle, why would the size of

the crime make a difference?

[Generator]

9. Wrong board

You must know by now, the ONLY one to blame for anything that ever happened in Iraq is America, and especially the Bush family. Saddam didn't even recieve a fair trial, I just read. The horror! You will never ever win this argument on Du, ever. They would rather kill you first than admit Saddam deserved to die.

[LibraLiz1973]

15. ROFLMAO

damn you


:rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

24. So you think the trial was fair?

Holy shit. Any time the judge said anything other than "Saddam is a fucking bastard" he was replaced with someone else. Give me a break.

[EFerrari]

25. How do you admit that someone deserves to die?

Is there a Blood Lust forum around here somewhere? I'm seriously not getting this.

[Justitia]

29. combo of "deserved to die" & your avatar is quite something to behold

how do you twist yourself into pretzels like that?

[Maru Kitteh]

80. One must not point out hypocrisy to the zealous

For it is most unwelcome, and ye shall suffer a boil.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[otohara]

172. Who's Next?

If we're going to go around killing world leaders who "deserve" to die, I vote we bring back assignation and bypass the whole Shock & Awe, debacle course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. As a daugher of the holocaust, gives me a special perspective

even if I personally wanted to skin Hitler alive, I'd rather see REAL JUSTICE done, and not this travesty

[EFerrari]

11. He "needed to go"? Wtf? Do you even know that he was totally our creature?

Before you sign off on the killing of a person, might be a good idea to know what you're signing.

[LibraLiz1973]

26. Regardless of who created him, he was what he was.

And I know what I'm signing off on.

We disagree- but I think that's ok sometimes!

[EFerrari]

31. Saddam could not have existed but for us.

We made him possible and now we're using his dead body for propaganda.

Go, US!

[LibraLiz1973]

34. He could not have existed AS POWERFUL AS HE WAS but for us

but he was already evil lonnnnnng before we got there

[EFerrari]

44. You need to read yourself some history. We made him when

he was in his early 20s.

So, no, he wasn't evil lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng before we got there.

We got there first.

[LibraLiz1973]

47. I must read different history books

[EFerrari]

52. No kidding.

:rofl:

[Horse with no Name]

46. As powerful as he was?

He was a two-bit tin horn dictator in a (barely) third-world country.
He couldn't even take out the neighboring landlocked countries for God's sake...how the fuck was he a threat to us?

[LibraLiz1973]

50. Again... it should have NOTHING to do with us!!

EOM

[EFerrari]

54. Because we should NEVER be resonsible for our behavior!

[LibraLiz1973]

61. I certainly didn't say that- in fact quite the opposite.

Perhaps you should have been on Saddam's defense team?
According to you he was in no way responsible for his actions-
since we programmed that lovely man against his will.

Seriously- the smug holy thing your throwing around right now is really rude.

I haven't been rude to you, but you keep pick pick picking.

Do you NEED a fight?

[EFerrari]

68. Well, I wouldn't want to be rude

just because you are celebrating the death of a person you apparently know nothing about.

[LibraLiz1973]

71. Dammit... do you want me to cancel the cake and balloons?

:sarcasm: Would that make you feel better?


Since your so perfect and smart (and apparently right AT ALL TIMES)
can I take you with me on Jeopardy?

[EFerrari]

82. It's just a death, Liz. No need to get upset. n/t

[havocmom]

100. AH, when the argument gets thin, due to a lack of understanding history,

snide personal attacks are OK... Nice debate tactic.

Saddam was OUR creation. We trained, armed, and gave the orders for much of his tenure. We made sure he made $$ to buy arms so our ghouls could make $$ selling them to him. We created and enabled the man! Then, Bush 41 encouraged rebellion against him, promising US help. Bush LIED and thousands died, (evidently a genetic trait, we see now). Saddam put down a rebellion which we instigated and encouraged then abandoned.

41 should have been standing trial too. The trails for both should have been in the Hague, not some kangaroo court full of puppets.

Saddam was a nasty, evil man, but he sure as hell did not operate in a vacuum. Nor was his trial.

[LibraLiz1973]

104. your right.. he didn't operate in a vacuum.

But that doesn't make him not guilty

[havocmom]

109. Did I say he was not guilty? Why do you infer what was clearly not there?

And I am sorry Santa failed to deliver on that apostrophe thingy. <-- see I can learn snide personal affronts too :D

[EFerrari]

123. It's so weird that people confuse history with approval.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

58. He was a kid in his twenties when CIA went in.

Can you imagine that. His whole adult life was just theater for Americans.

[LibraLiz1973]

77. You know.. I have to say something about that

If someone came in and gave YOU guns and money, would you then murder thousands?


I can't believe your trying to paint him as an innocent kid... turned by the evil Americans.

I guess he wasn't responsible since it is all Americas fault.

[EFerrari]

81. You have no clue what he did or didn't do, do you?

That's so scary.

[LibraLiz1973]

83. I know plenty of the untinfoiled version

[EFerrari]

118. Really? So now the public record is tin foil?

What crap.

[silverojo]

88. The poor, precious baby!

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

119. What does poor or precious have to do with anything?

This guy was something we made. So you know, when you kill a guy like that, it's pretty much an act of self destruction.

[951-Riverside]

12. Well considering he would be 117 years old... yes I would.

[Cleita]

13. If Hitler hadn't killed himself he would have been tried at

Nuremburg, legally. I don't believe Saddam got a legal trial. This isn't about the sentence handed down after the trial, it's about a sentence without a legitimate trial.

[babylonsister]

14. No. And your #4 is my #1 gripe, especially since we made this

madman into what he became.

[sandnsea]

16. A hanging in a violent region

is the stupidest thing Bush has done since he chose to invade. When you're attempting to bring a culture into a modern world community, the last thing you want to do is implement barbaric executions from the dark ages.

[Justitia]

21. good point. -eom

[EFerrari]

28. Like we have anything to teach Iraq.

:rofl:

[LibraLiz1973]

38. Well... that's true EOM

[sandnsea]

48. Hey, go put on your hijab then

Or maybe you'd like to go swimming in this:



I'm not thrilled with everything in this country either, but it's a damned sight better than ANY country in the Middle East.

[mondo joe]

62. Women in Iraq didn't wear the Hijab - until the war put religious extremists

in power.

[sandnsea]

64. Right, the war created these ideas

It was simply unheard of before the war. :eyes:

Don't. Even.

[LibraLiz1973]

73. Oh, you didn't want that heaping helping of revisionist history?

Because I hear it comes with a yummy side of hypocrites.

[Warren Stupidity]

89. Just the facts ma'am.

"Prior to the arrival of U.S. forces, Iraqi women were free to go wherever they wish and wear whatever they like. The 1970 Iraqi constitution, gave Iraqi women equity and liberty unmatched in the Muslim World. Since the U.S. invasion, Iraqi women’s rights have fallen to the lowest level in Iraq’s history. Under the new U.S.-crafted constitution, which will be put to referendum on the 15 October while the bloodbath mounts each day, women’s rights will be oppressed and the role of women in Iraqi society will be curtailed and relegated to the caring for “children and the elderly”.

Immediately after the invasion, the U.S. embarked on cultivating friendships with religious groups and clerics. The aim was the complete destruction of nationalist movements, including women’s rights movements, and replacing them with expatriate religious fanatics and criminals piggybacked from Iran, the U.S. and Britain. In the mean time the U.S. moved to liquidate any Iraqi opposition or dissent to the Occupation.

The creation of paramilitary death squads – from the SCIRI and Al- Da’wa militias – tied to the current puppet government and Iran have been terrorising Iraq’s secular communities and assassinating large number of prominent Iraqi politicians and professionals (see Robert Dreyfuss - Death Squads and Diplomacy). By using one group against the other, the US is dancing to the ongoing violence and the prospect of civil strife, while its corporations are siphoning off Iraqi resources and assets. "

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAS20051007&articleId=1054

[mondo joe]

76. Iraq was a secular state. In the absence of effective government, areas have

become dictated by Sharia law. Girls who once went to school are now threatened for doing so.

[sandnsea]

84. Busy little seamstresses

Sewing up all these garments in the midst of war and chaos.

Iraq was not a paradise under Saddam. Women are not treated well in Iraq now, were not under Saddam, and are not anywhere in the ME. The US did not create their culture, they did.

I am sick to death of these asinine comparisons between western cultures and dictatorships. It's just plain stupid.

[Warren Stupidity]

87. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good insult.

"Background on Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the Fall of the Saddam Hussein Government
November, 2003
Printer Friendly Version
PDF 5 pages
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key Sections

Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the 1991 Gulf War

Women's Status in the Post-Gulf War Years


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Material

Iraq: Insecurity Driving Women Indoors
Press Release, July 16, 2003

Climate of Fear: Sexual Violence and abduction of Women and girls in Baghdad
Report, July 2003


Historically, Iraqi women and girls have enjoyed relatively more rights than many of their counterparts in the Middle East. The Iraqi Provisional Constitution (drafted in 1970) formally guaranteed equal rights to women and other laws specifically ensured their right to vote, attend school, run for political office, and own property. Yet, since the 1991 Gulf War, the position of women within Iraqi society has deteriorated rapidly. Women and girls were disproportionately affected by the economic consequences of the U.N. sanctions, and lacked access to food, health care, and education. These effects were compounded by changes in the law that restricted women's mobility and access to the formal sector in an effort to ensure jobs to men and appease conservative religious and tribal groups. "

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm

After the gulf war things started to go downhill for a lot of reasons. After our invasion, the status of women plunged off a cliff.

[sandnsea]

93. Baghdad is NOT the country

And WE didn't create this culture - THEY did.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. Facts is unpleasant things huh?

You go prove that the condition of women in Iraq has not deteriorated since we knocked over the Baath regime. Go for it. I've provided two references backing my position up, so far all you have is exclamation points and the caps key.

[sandnsea]

105. Deteriorated from crap to shit?

You think it would be better to have a dictatorial Ba'athist regime in place, where 20% of the country is privileged and the rest is oppressed?

Pinheads. And that's being fucking generous.

[mondo joe]

113. Keep ignoring the facts.

Doesn't help your case.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. Better than what they have now?

Why yes, by any standard you care to put forth the people of Iraq were better off before we wrecked their country.

[sandnsea]

158. Substantially better? No

That's what you said.

It was good for a small percentage of the population, much like the US is very good for a small percentage of the monied elite. Overall, it was horrible there. I don't know why people create fantasies of these despotic countries. It was bad then, it's bad now.

[Warren Stupidity]

163. Here is substantial for ya.

Under-5 mortality rate, 1990 50

Under-5 mortality rate, 2005 125

Infant mortality rate (under 1), 1990 40

Infant mortality rate (under 1), 2005 102
http://www.unicef-icdc.it/infobycountry/iraq.html?q=printme

15 years of our screwing with Iraq have done wonders for the Iraqis.

[sandnsea]

166. Infant mortality, Kuwait - 14

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/kuwait.html

The infant mortality rate was 7 in Norway in 1990.

Iraq. Crap then. Shit now.

[Warren Stupidity]

170. That would be a different argument.

The people of Iraq were better off before we messed with them.

[sandnsea]

171. But not well off

Which is what I've been saying all along and that you just can't stand the truth of. Western cultures DO have a lot to offer the ME and other regions of the world. One being a higher quality of living which comes, in part, from putting emphasis on health and life instead of barbaric revenge. Granted the idiots in office right now don't embody that, but most western culture does. Comparing our culture to opressive dictatorships is idiotic.

[beam me up scottie]

143. Nice.

:thumbsup:

I knew about the Constitution but I didn't have such a great source for info.

[mondo joe]

112. Please drop the strawman. No one said Iraq was a paradise.

Iraq was a substantially MORE secular state pre war than it is currently.

[sandnsea]

124. dupe n/t

[sandnsea]

125. Substantially? No.

It was crap then as opposed to shit now, as I already said. Do you even know what more secular means in an ME country? Women can get a job - IF they have permission. They can go out and about - IF they're driven. Quit pretending Baghdad was New York City, hell it wasn't even Bakersfield. We didn't have anything to do with the creation of Sharia law, it's their culture. The Ba'athist secular culture isn't a lot better.

[mondo joe]

146. If you think women in Iraq now are not substantially worse off, you have decided to

believe your own imagination.

[sandnsea]

159. Most have it about the same

Poverty, fear of violence, no utilities or medical care - same than as now. Not everybody was among the Sunni elite.

[Warren Stupidity]

86. The point is that Iraq was actually one of the more

enlightened and secular states in the region with respect to women's rights and in other areas as well. At the same time of course it was also a one-party nationalist-socialist military dictatorship headed by the late S. Hussein. Too bad things just aren't as black and white as you'd like them to be. Yes of course fundamentalist islamic idiocy pre-existed our invasion, but that was not the poster's point and you know it. Either that or you really do not know much at all about Iraq.

We dismantled the secular regime and replaced it with nothing much outside the green zone. So into that vacuum have come the fundaloons with their sharia. The poster is quite correct.

[sandnsea]

91. As *I'd* like them to be???

What complete and utter horseshit. I post a simple statement on the strategic stupidity of this execution, violence begetting more violence in a historically violent region - and my favorite pinhead has to chime in with anti-US jibberish as if living in any country in the ME can remotely compare to the freedoms and economic stability and equality we enjoy here. It's revolting. This country, as a whole, has a lot to teach other cultures, especially if the people who had the most to teach would do more than stand around with their thumb up their ass and whine about the unfairness of it all.

[Selatius]

97. We have a lot to teach, that is true, but they stopped listening when we invaded.

This isn't how it's done, and it's likely to have put the Middle East out of the reach of the message of sexual equality and liberty for another 100 years or longer for the fact that it came from "the foreigners."

[LibraLiz1973]

101. I'm not sure it's our job to teach

Alot of Americans go ape shit saying that we have to teach those foreigners all about equality! and malls! and make up! and short skirts!

I think it's ridiculously obnoxious (and oh so American) to try and jam our way of living down other peoples throats.
Why do we need to Americanize everything? It's barely working for us- how the hell are we going to teach it to others?

[sandnsea]

107. Do you believe in terrorism?

On this board, you have to ask.

[LibraLiz1973]

111. Do I believe terrorism happens? Yes. Do I beleive being Iraqi makes it happen? No.

Not every person who lives in a Foreign country is a terrorist.
They have their own heritage; their own culture and traditions.
How insane is it to think that unless we Americanize them they will kill us?

[sandnsea]

116. Right, okay

Some people think terrrism is a CIA operation.

I don't think we need to Americanize anybody. But global economics is a reality and one of the problematic by-products is terrorism. Increased communication and understanding is going to be necessary to bridge gaps that lead to culture conflicts, and real work from WE the people on economic equality. We shouldn't force anybody to change, I respect a woman's right to practice her religion including wearing garments, as long as I don't have to. But when we get to issues of violent acts, then that's where the mindset that feeds terrorism does come into play. My initial comment went to that, we're trying to marginalize that violent mindset, and what do we do, let them implement a barbaric death penalty. Stupid. We do have to deal with that, it's part of how we defend ourselves against terrorist acts.

[LibraLiz1973]

121. I didn't think that was what you meant, I was just saying that it is a problem.

I think when Bush talks about liberating them and giving them democracy what he's REALLY saying is, "Let's get a Disney Land over there and a couple of Whoppers".

The freepers seem to think we should bomb them into the stone age or convert them to our way of thinking.

[LibraLiz1973]

122. Gotcha!

Thanks for clarifying

[Selatius]

117. I'm sorry, but I would be a hypocrite if I tolerated intolerance.

If you believe in equality of the sexes and the idea of liberty, then naturally you would be opposed to ideals that give birth to female genital mutilation like they do in parts of Africa, forcing women to wear hijabs like they do in the Arab world, and aborting babies like they do in India and China because they happen to be female.

As a man who believes in equality of the sexes, I would naturally judge anything opposing that as inherently inferior, but at the same time, I'm not going to bomb them into my beliefs like George thinks he can do.

[EFerrari]

129. Spoken like a good American. n/t

[sandnsea]

136. No, a good citizen of the planet

Who thinks we can do better for all people than to excuse oppressive dictators just because they say mean things about the US and western culture.

[Hippo_Tron]

173. This is probably the most intelligent post I've seen here all day

The same thought was in the back of my mind.

[Goblinmonger]

18. I would be against it.

The taking of a life is never right. The state should not be in the business of killing someone to punish them for killing someone. That is just batshitcrazy insane. That is true if it is Hussein, Hitler, or Hinkley.

I mean, really, isn't it a sickening irony that CNN is saying "Saddam is hung for crimes against humanity"?

[htuttle]

19. The Nuremberg Trials were a model of justice

Hussein's trial was a farce, and a bad one at that.

[AZBlue]

20. No. But I'm not completely against capital punishment.

I support a limited use of it - and Hitler would certainly fit my qualifications as a candidate!

[Roxy66]

23. no

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

35. I would have been against hanging Hitler, same as I was against

hanging (or by any other method, executing) Saddam. I am against the death penalty, and cannot make exceptions for it. I understand different people have different takes on it, and that's mine.

[Mojambo]

55. That's my take exactly. n/t

[LuckyTheDog]

36. Different situation

Any other silly questions?

[CatWoman]

39. second most sensible post I've seen on this thread

comparing Saddam to Hitler is just like comparing the "war on terra" to WW2.

[LibraLiz1973]

41. Other than the number of dead

and the specific reasons they doled out their own forms of torture, how is it so different?
If you think it's a silly question, I have to wonder if you really thought about it.. or if you saw the world Hitler and started laughing.

[LuckyTheDog]

53. Totally different

For starters, Hitler declared war on us. But there are about a bazillion other reasons why the comparison is silly.

[Justitia]

65. You have GOT to be FUCKING KIDDING ME! WTF? -eom

[havocmom]

128. Uh, Saddam did not attack a whole lotta other nations

Hitler did? That's a pretty big difference.

Are you really Condi Rice?

[earlybelle]

40. There is little comparison between Saddam and Hitler. More between Bush and Hitler.

[LibraLiz1973]

45. I agree with most of one of those sentences. (EOM)

[rockymountaindem]

168. Name some differences...

[seabeyond]

42. i could see him in prison rest of his life. i dont have to see him dead

to see justice. no.... i would not feel more complete, satisfied or justice served to killing hitler. i would feel more like i had become him, than being better than him

[MikeNY]

43. It is cruel and unusual to hang someone

Hanging as a means of capital punishment was outlawed in the United States. Its completely uncivilized. It is also uncivilized to send a POW to death, no matter what crimes they may have committed. Iraq's court is not an international court. And when you get quotes like, "Our respect for human rights requires us to execute him", you wonder what road the Iraqi's are really going down. With a sizeable portion of U.S. troops still occupying Iraq, Saddam will, unfortunately, die a martyr. And this is due to the way we have handled him in captivity - he should not have been tried in Iraq.

[marmar]

49. Yes. I'm opposed to the death penalty in ALL situations....

And though I wouldn't shed a tear for Hitler, or the Grand Dragon of the KKK, or Stalin, or Franco, or Pinochet, or whomever, supporting the death penalty under any circumstance diminishes my humanity. You should never become what you hold in contempt.

[Texasgal]

51. I am, shedding NO TEARS over saddam

These people say THANK YOU for getting rid of that nasty POS!




WARNING GRAPHIC PICS**********************************
















Yeah... FUCK YOU SADDAM! I hope you ROT in hell!

[slimjared]

90. Saddam messed up in the head....

I second that!

I feel capital punishment should be used sparingly at best. How do you find a suitable punishment for someone who killed tens of thousands?

Hitler should've been starved and gassed as he did to others.

To those who think we create Saddam, has anyone read his bio about how sick he was when he was a kid? He used to torture and kill animals as a young kid. There was something wrong with him.

[GreenEyedLefty]

56. I agree with the second part of your post

regarding the US's involvement in keeping Saddam in power. It really makes me angry that we were even remotely complicit in the murders that Saddam ended up paying the ultimate price for.

But I'm against the death penalty in all cases. I take no pleasure whatsoever in the demise of another human being. I just don't.

[bullwinkle428]

57. The "Saddam = Hitler" meme has been used for months now by people

like Don Rumsfeld and Sean Hannity. I'm kind of saddened to now see it getting kicked around here at DU...

[TahitiNut]

59. I know of no murderer in history who didn't rationalize their murder the same way.

:shrug:

It amazes me that so many DUers demonize military personnel for the killings in a combat zone and apologize the killing of people who're disarmed, in prison, and under guard.

Killing anyone is wrong. Period.
That's what MANY military people have to deal with for the rest of their lives.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. Does the concept of two wrongs not equaling a right

make any sense to you? Or as Gandhi put it: an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

In this particular case as there was no due process, as this was simply a kangaroo court followed by a rushed execution, there is not even the slim fabric of due process to hang onto. It was murder and it was wrong.

It was also stupid. This is going to bring peace to the region?

[jcrew2001]

66. lives

Yeah, but Caucasion lives are worth about twice that of Mid-Easterners, at least according to the US reparations for mideast civilian casualties.

[Synnical]

67. Yes - am against the Death Penalty, always n/t

[MazeRat7]

70. Yes, life w/o parole is far worse than death... -nt

[HEyHEY]

72. I'd be against hanging him until he was tried for ALL of his crimes

Not just one to quickly get him out of the picture.

[LibraLiz1973]

74. That's a totally legitimate point

eom

[slimjared]

92. Then what?

Do you not think it would take tens of years and an enormous amount of money to do so? At what point do you say enough is enough?

How many trials do you put a serial killer through? One (normally). Maybe they should've had one trial that contained more than one allegation?.?

[HEyHEY]

102. It's called, "Justice"

Glad you weren't prosecuting Nazis... we'd never know half the shit we do now.

[bigwillq]

75. Yes

These people need to rot in prison the rest of their lives.

The powers that be, who decided on this execution, let Saddam off easy.

Now, he gets to die as a martyr.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. If Hitler had not committed suicide, I would have wanted him to spend the rest

of his miserable life under the same conditions that he imposed on the prisoners of his concentration camps.

[slimjared]

96. Agreed...

I would agree to that. I sure wouldn't support him living out his life well fed in some prison. That would not do justice for those poor souls who lost their lives under his rule.

[gulliver]

79. They don't think Saddam is Hitler. They probably like Hitler!

These Iraqis we freed aren't such a great pack of people. Most of them are probably nice enough, but there appear to be a hell of a bunch of them who root for Ahmadinejad, Iran in general, Hezbollah, Bin Laden, Hamas, and, yes, the late Saddam Hussein. They are all free now. Free to be themselves.

[silverojo]

85. I wish they would've caught Hitler

He deserved the death penalty for the atrocities he committed. Anyone who could even think of having mercy on that monster needs to spend some serious time reading about what he did to the Jews.

What's making me sick tonight is all those people who are crying--crying!--over the death of Saddam Hussein. No, he's not Osama Bin Laden. Yes, I'm totally against Bush's illegal war. But none of that negates Saddam's brutality against his own people.

Those shedding tears tonight need to cry for the people in OUR country who go hungry, homeless, or without medical care.

Where's your compassion for INNOCENT AMERICANS who haven't harmed ANYONE?

When you anti-death-penalty folks start showing that kind of compassion, then the rest of us might listen. But when you're so unfeeling and callous toward the innocent while you cry for the guilty, it's hard to feel anything but contempt for your tears. (How do I know you're callous toward the innocent? Because I rarely see threads discussing the plight of the poor, ailing, and disabled.)

I'm sorry if this offends, but you really need to get your priorities straight: INNOCENT PEOPLE deserve your tears and compassion. Mass murderers don't.

Please take that compassion you're feeling for Saddam, and redirect it to the people here, and all around the world, who are suffering.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

126. Why should we kill them? What can we possibly gain?

Does it make you feel any better that Sadaam will be murdered when he is no longer dangerous? Perhaps it does, but I don't really have the stomach for that. Yes, there are innocents out there getting fucked over every day. You don't think that I (and others who are against capital punishment) have trouble sleeping at night thinking about that?

Poverty and homelessness are horrible things, and there are threads about it, everyday (you have to look for them. The lounge isn't all fun and games, there are hundreds of personal acounts where people have come here looking for compassion and support and have found it pouring in).

Anyway, while you may prefer them being killed, I don't, so we may have reached an impasse. The content of this post wasn't meant to be contrary to yours, but simply to point out some broadbrushes in it (yes, I'm sure I've commited such a sin in this post and others, feel free to point them out)

[renate]

139. Way-ulll... I disagree with you about one thing

There is most definitely no dearth of threads here about the suffering of innocent people. (We're Democrats, for Pete's sake. We care about people even if they don't have trust funds!)

But I'm with you in one way--the deaths of innocents is one thing, but the death of somebody who made, shall we say, BAD CHOICES in his personal behavior is somewhat less regrettable.

I'm not so much pro-death penalty as "meh, who cares," if somebody is absolutely proven to be guilty. (In US courts, it's not always a sure thing whether someone is guilty, so in most cases I'm not so pro-DP.)

His death isn't going to achieve anything in the greater geopolitical picture, but if it gives his victims' families one iota of comfort, I'm more than okay with it. They deserve at least that one small comfort, and their claims are greater than his.

[GirlinContempt]

94. I would be.

[AlienAvatar]

108. If someone is against the death penalty,

as I am, then I'm against it in each, every, and all cases. Period. I don't like it, and I'm against it. And this bloodlust I see around here is extremely unbecoming and disappointing.

[Bluebear]

164. I could not agree with you more. nt

[Balbus]

99. What a person does during his life has nothing to do with it.

It's what Bush wants which determines which side we on DU take. If Bush wanted Hitler dead then we'd want him alive. If Bush wanted Hitler alive then we'd want him dead. That's the only barometer that's used on DU.

[sproutster]

103. Yes, I'm against death penalty.

He would have died a joke like Charlie Manson. Didn't notice that we are flipping losing sleep and crying every morning when we get up coz he's still alive.

Give me a break.

edited to add --

Without forgivness there can be no peace.

[neebob]

106. Yes. nt

[LittleClarkie]

110. The Iraq War is not WWII. Several Repubs make that mistake. Don't you make it too

Hitler invaded our allies. Saddam was just sorta sitting there when we invaded. Hitler gave us a reason to go to war with him. Coversely, if being a madman was enough for us to go in and take a leader out, then I reckon we missed a few. Generally we could give a shit when it does not involve our self-interest.

This discussion feeds into our rationale for starting the war in the first place. We went in there and took Saddam out because, as we were originally told, he had WMDs. When the rationale because a war of liberation, that's when little sheeple me started to wake the fuck up. We don't engage in wars of liberation just out of the goodness of our tiny little hearts.

[LibraLiz1973]

114. the Iraq war IS NOT WWII. I agree.

Let's be REAL clear about that.

I'm saying that he was a freaking monster who tortured and killed people and then dumped them in unmarked graves.
He should be dead IMHO. One less evil bastard in the world.

But he should have been dealt with A LONG TIME AGO. We have NO place there and we were wrong to go.
We started that war for no reason.

But I can't be sorry he's been punished for what he did to "his" people.

[fujiyama]

134. Good post - you're often a voice of reason!

.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

115. I would be against execution of Stalin, Hitler, Sadaam (etc.), yes.

Nothing is really gained by killing these people as an execution in a controlled envrioenment vs. putting them in jail and letting them rot. physically Why should we kill someone when they aren't and will no longer be a direct threat to us. I am against killing unless it is the last resort of a direct threat to my life and the lives of others.

These are my principles and beliefs. Should you disagree with them, fine. If anyone wants to fight over them, then too fucking bad.

[sillyphoenix]

127. Call me what you will, but yes.

It is never, but never, appropriate or justified for any human being to assume the position of God and take another's life, even if the person in question is evil and rotten to the core. God would have punished Saddam Hussein for his crimes even if we hadn't hastened the inevitable, just like Hitler would have gotten his just desserts regardless of how his life ended.

Therefore, IMHO, it would have been wrong to hang Hitler, just like it was wrong to hang Hussein. Obviously they both deserved punishment for what they did, but nobody, not you, not me, and certainly not George Bush, has the right to exact the ultimate punishment. The only morally right thing to do would be to put either of them in jail until the Almighty sees fit to take their lives.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

131. I would have completely supported executing Hitler.

Then again, I'm not against the death penalty.

[Nutmegger]

132. Ask me 1,000 times about state sanctioned MURDER

and each time I will tell you that I'm rabidly against it.

[uppityperson]

133. I would be against hanging, for life inprisonment

[fujiyama]

135. The first thing to remember

is Saddam wasn't Hitler.

Hitler was responsible for some 30,000,000 lives lost in WWII, including the genocide of 6,000,000 Jews, and 5,000,000 other "undesirables". He invaded several nations.

So in my opinion would Hitler have deserved the death penalty? Yes. I usually do not support the death penalty, due to its many flaws, but I think in rare heinous crimes, it can be justified.

Saddam may have been responsible for 250,000 deaths and started a war with Iran and Kuwait. Now, that doesn't excuse him of his crimes, especially his massacres of Kurds and Shiites. Likewise, I wouldn't have cared if Saddam had been hanged - either in an international tribunal, or an actual Iraq government that was organically formed by them.

Instead this entire trial lacks any real legitimacy and worse yet tries to pass itself off as justice.

In all honesty, I would have been happier just turning Saddam over to Shiite crowds. They could have done whatever they wanted - shot him, hanged him, disembowled him, etc.

I'm just tired of Bush using this shit as propaganda and claiming this as justice.

[puerco-bellies]

137. Murder is Murder. Mas murder is no worst to an individual victim.

State sponsored murder is no different, but the state IMHO is more dangerous than your run of the mill murderer. When you allow the state to kill, then everyone with in jurisdiction, or within reach of that state is a potential victim of that state.

Keep in mind that Saddam was our ally when he gassed the kurds. Remember when they found samples of the VX gas about six months ago. The pictures of the original envelopes that contained the samples were printed in english, because they came from us. The people that allow him to have that technology are now the ones calling the shots here in the U.S. We weren't complacent, we were active accomplices. He did our bidding in opposing the Iranians, and now we have killed him with our hand picked proxies, for no more than perceived political gain. How the fuck is that justified?

Why aren't you screaming for the blood of the former leaders of Guatemala, El Salvador, or a hundred other third world countries. What about the good old U.S.A.? Here in the land of the free we imprison a higher percentage of our population then any other country. Multiple studies show that about 10% of the people executed here in the U.S. are innocent of the crimes they were killed for, when pray tell did that become ok with you? How many innocents are a necessary evil in your book?

At no point am I "OK" with murder.

[MonkeyFunk]

138. Yes

I don't know why it's hard for people to understand. Somehow they think if we can just find the RIGHT guy to kill, we'd change our minds. Not true.

[cool user name]

140. You goddamned rigtht ... It's about principle ... n/t

[LynnTheDem]

141. Yes.

[rman]

142. yes

[3121guitarist]

147. If I was consistant.

I can't be against the death penalty, but want Hitler dead. Sure, Hitler was evil, but law is law.

[high density]

151. See other thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3002886

[leesa]

152. Just think how many questions we might have had answered if he were alive

Perhaps we could have all learned something. He would have been disempowered.

[Bluerthanblue]

153. yes I would oppose it- for the obvious reasons, that

speak for themself.

If the intentional taking of another persons life is WRONG- it is WRONG.

My killing someone as punishment for their killing, only makes THEM the 'victor'- because they have converted me to become one of 'them'.

PERIOD-

[Beelzebud]

154. If Hitler had been captured, he would have had a fair trial at the Hauge.

It's sick how easily some are willing just abandon our former principles.

We gave the fucking Nazis a fair trial.

Are we to believe that Saddam Hussein was worse than Hitler and the Nazis?

This whole thing just makes me sick. We are now the country that doesn't care about rule of law, justice, or fairness.

[citizen snips]

156. Hitler deserved a painful and degrading death

he deserves the same death mussolini got.

[Lurking Dem]

157. I categorically oppose the death penalty.

Now, would I have shed any tears? Nope. Not shedding any for Hussein either. But you can't make the death penalty anything other than the barbarism it is.

Hitler could have spent the rest of his life in jail getting buggered by black men, Latinos, and Jews. I wouldn't have shed any tears over that either.

[RestoreGore]

161. How far are you really willing to take the hangings?

And just what does it really accomplish? It is immoral, and I truly cannot see how state sanctioned murder is any different than any other kind of murder. Do those who applaud it really think it matters to the sociopaths who WANT to be martyrs? Obviously, Hitler committed suicide because he couldn't face LIVING with what would come next once he was defeated. In that case, I would say death only serves to give someone like him what he wants. And why would anyone want to give him what he wants? Why would anyone seek to ease his Earthly pain? Why would anyone seek to become him? Death is also too good for some, and Hitler would be one of those people as was Saddam Hussein, as in his case we also buried much truth along with him regarding our govt's own complicity in his crimes, and that disturbs me as an American:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0312/S00148.htm

According to William Blum, writing in the August 1998 issue of the Progressive, Sam Gejdenson, chairperson of a Congressional subcommittee investigating US exports to Iraq, disclosed that from 1985 until 1990 "the US government approved 771 licenses for the export to Iraq of $1.5 billion worth of biological agents and high-tech equipment with military application …

"The US spent virtually an entire decade making sure that Saddam Hussein had almost whatever he wanted… US export control policy was directed by US foreign policy as formulated by the State Department, and it was US foreign policy to assist the regime of Saddam Hussein."

A 1994 US Senate report revealed that US companies were licenced by the commerce department to export a "witch's brew" of biological and chemical materials, including bacillus anthracis (which causes anthrax) and clostridium botulinum (the source of botulism). The American Type Culture Collection made 70 shipments of the anthrax bug and other pathogenic agents.

The report also noted that US exports to Iraq included the precursors to chemical warfare agents, plans for chemical and biological warfare facilities and chemical warhead filling equipment. US firms supplied advanced and specialised computers, lasers, testing and analysing equipment. Among the better-known companies were Hewlett Packard, Unisys, Data General and Honeywell.

Billions of dollars worth of raw materials, machinery and equipment, missile technology and other "dual-use" items were also supplied by West German, French, Italian, British, Swiss and Austrian corporations, with the approval of their governments (German firms even sold Iraq entire factories capable of mass-producing poison gas). Much of this was purchased with funds freed by the US CCC credits.
~~~~~~~~~~
So when you talk about hanging people, how far are you really willing to take it?

[WCGreen]

162. He should have been held fully accountable for all of the dispicable

things he did...

And then, we talk about hanging...

Look at all those people who were ground under his boot that aren't getting their day in court...

All the atrocities should have been addressed...

[rockymountaindem]

165. I'd prefer a worse fate than hanging for Hitler...

although I suspect that what I'd have in store for that soulless monster would qualify as "cruel and unusual punishment", so hanging would have to suffice.

[Chomp]

167. Unequivocally yes....nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

169. That's far from a humble opinion

Just sayin'...

[WindRavenX]

174. of course I would be against it

His death would not magically negate his evil.

Lock him up, throw away the key.