Is the death penalty murder?

[Guaranteed]

[ixion]

1. state-sanctioned murder

taking a life is taking a life, no matter who makes the decision to do so. That governments somehow feel that when they decide to kill that it's okay is something that shouldn't be tolerated in the international community, nor the local populace.

[terrya]

14. Yes. Absolutely agree.

Whether it's gay men being executed in Iran or Texas executing criminals or, yes, Saddam Hussein, the death penalty is wrong and immoral under any circumstance.

[Warpy]

20. I'll agree with that, and I am a survivor

of murder within my family.

The perp was suspected in 2 similar murders in the same town.

Having him killed in my name would have made the whole thing worse, not better.

I wanted him locked up so he couldn't do it again. I was sixteen at the time.

I got my wish. He died in prison.

[uppityperson]

26. agree, state sanctioned murder

[William769]

2. If you use the definition of murder from the dictionary, then no.

[Guaranteed]

3. What's that definition? nt

[William769]

7. This.

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder


The key word is unlawfully, people can argue till the cow's come home if it was lawful or not, I'm just stating the definition.

[Guaranteed]

8. So, you can't have committed murder without being convicted.

I'm not sure I'd even agree with that.

[William769]

10. Not true. to murder is unlawful.

To commit murder is a crime, doesn't matter if your caught or not. If someone steals your car and they are not caught, did they steal it?

[Guaranteed]

12. *To* murder is unlawful? That's not what your definition says.

I agree with your counterargument, that it seems ridiculous to say that someone didn't do something just because they weren't convicted. But, your definition *of* murder is the "unlawful" killing of another, inter alia. Therefore, in order to have murdered somebody, by that definition it must have been determined that the act was unlawful, which requires a trial and conviction.

There's some kind of circular logic going on here. The question, really, is what makes killing another person unlawful.

I think killing another is unlawful when it is unjustified. It's unjustified when the decedent did not physically threaten the actor or someone else. In other words, killing is only justified in instances of self-defense or the defense of another.

If Saddam was locked up, in custody, he didn't threaten anyone. Therefore, it would seem his killing was unjustified. If it was unjustified, it was unlawful. If it was unlawful, it was murder.

(although I usually skip the "unlawful" part)

[William769]

16. All I can say is, it's lawful because the Government says it is.

I understand your argument, but that argument won't fly in a court of law (speaking of course Of Governments that allow the death penalty).

[ixion]

24. it's lawful because the Government says it is...

that seems to be the main problem. The government should not have the power to make it's own laws.

[Garbo 2004]

33. "The government should not have the power to make it's own laws." ? In a representative democracy,

making laws is rather the purpose and function of state legislatures and a Congress composed of elected representatives. By what process do you think the vast majority of statutes came into being? And get changed?

So in your view, legislatures should not have the power to make laws? Then who and how?

[William769]

47. Did I say that?

When I speak of Government I speak of the legislature, which by the way it is done in the U.S.

[Garbo 2004]

50. No you didn't say that. The poster I responded to said that. :)

By the way, we do it that way too here in California. Well, mostly. ;)

[ixion]

23. you're correct..."unlawfully" is the operative word there

however from a moral standpoint, there is still no difference, IMO.

[SaveElmer]

46. What law...

What if a country decided murder wasn't illegal?

How about the 10 commandments

Thou Shalt not Kill is more accurately translated thou shalt not murder...you could argue (as the fundies never would) that it is against God's law!

[William769]

48. Then it would be legal.

The Bible does not trump man made laws.

[bertha katzenengel]

4. under at least one definition it is

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder

5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously

We are a nation of barbarians.

I take your point - by law in the U.S., it's not murder.

By humanity, of course it is.

[Sparkly]

5. That's an interesting question to poll!

M-W's first definition of "murder" is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought." I think your question goes to "crime" and "unlawful" -- perhaps separating the legal stance from the moral stance.

[fasttense]

6. Kill a man, and you are an assassin.

Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror.
Kill everyone and you are a god.

Jean Rostand 1894-1977

[cassiepriam]

9. Saddam was tried by a kangaroo court, his death was certain

the moment he was captured.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. death certificate of all executed immates lists cause of death as "homicide"

[Guaranteed]

13. That one I don't think we can get around. People killed

someone who has been executed.

[Nicole]

41. No, not all of them are listed as "homicide"

Some states list cause of death as "execution".

[eallen]

15. Everyone who answers "yes," should answer a followup question....

Would you rather eliminate murder or capital punishment? Mind, I'm not arguing that capital punishment is a deterrent. It's just asking a preference. The point of the question is that you understand the difference.

:hippie:

[Guaranteed]

17. If capital punishment is murder, eliminating murder

would eliminate them both.

Besides that, what I'd want to eliminate is the unjustified killing of people. Killing a person when they don't threaten anybody is wrong.

[William769]

18. "Killing a person when they don't threaten anybody is wrong."

Do you know how many inmates & Officers have been killed by Inmates after being incarcerated? (Of course I am speaking of only Florida here).

Mind you I say this retiring from 20 years of service from The Florida Dept of Corrections.

[Guaranteed]

19. That's a problem with the prison system.

Unless you can predict the future, it doesn't justify killing people. Security just needs to be tightened. There are ways to alievate overcrowding that might help, as well.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. False choice. I don't have to answer this. You're trying to frame people against the DP as

"soft on crime." I call bullshit.

Besides, looking at the crime rates in the US and Europe, it's more true that you eliminate both or none.

[eallen]

25. I have nothing against those who oppose capital punishment.

I think it's silly when people say it is the same as murder. It's pretty easy to distinguish the two.

[Guaranteed]

37. I'm usually pretty good at seeing distinctions, but I don't see one, here.

I saw a guy with his hands tied behind his back being led to his death by a bunch of armed men. How, in that context, can killing him be justified? And, in my mind, if his killing wasn't justified, and it was intentional, that's murder.

So....

???

[eallen]

40. You're not discussing what is relevant.

Justified? Why would you think that has anything to do with the distinction. Capital punishment is the execution of someone who has been found guilty of some crime through a legal process that metes out that punishment for the specified crime. Now, it is arguable that Saddam's execution wasn't an instance of capital punishment. But the way to argue that is to argue about the legality of the process that was applied.

[fishwax]

61. well, wouldn't they just say murder?

and then, since they consider the death penalty to be murder, by eliminating murder they would have eliminated them both. :shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

21. pre-meditated murder. plain, simple and WRONG n/t

[Disturbed]

27. Isn't the commandment, "Thou shall not Murder"?

Most interpret is as "Thou shall not Kill" but I believe that is not the correct interpretation.

Murder and kill are two seperate concepts.

Most Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus have no qualms about executing others for various crimes. I don't know about the Buddhists regarding this. The Death Penalty has been sanctioned by most societies until perhaps this century.

I am against the DP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. It's Undesirable But It's Not Murder

eom

[LWolf]

29. It depends on which definition you want to go by.

The definition for the U.S. legal system, or a broader definition.

The death penalty is the premeditated, forceful taking of another's life. It's wrong whether you want to split hairs over calling it "murder" or not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Is There A Middle Ground Before Undesirable And Murder?

eom

[LWolf]

34. Clarify:

I'm not sure what the "undesirable" relates to. Do you mean that the death penalty is "undesirable?"

There's no middle ground here for me. The death penalty is undesirable. It's wrong. If you use this definition:

mur·der /ˈmɜrdər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

the death penalty may not "murder." It's not any more justifiable, regardless. The death penalty is definitely the killing of another human being committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation and premeditation. It's sanctioned, legal murder.

If you use this definition:

5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

then yes, the death penalty is murder.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I Oppose The Death Penalty...

I also oppose euthanasia, unjust wars, abortion, and the death penalty. I believe in a culture of life...


But though I oppose the death penalty I can't compare it to murder...


Ted Bundy went into the Chi-Omega Sorrority House in 1978 and kiled and sodomized two sorrority sisters. He left two others for dead...


The state of Florida took his life for that act. I can never equate the two...


Carol Maher was a friend of mine... You can google her... She made the mistake of getting a ride from Gerald Stano who promised to take her from night club to another. Minutes after she got in his car he demanded oral sex... She laughed at him... She didn't know he was a serial murderer... He stabbed her and threw her by the side of the road in a desolate area of Daytona Beach...

The state of Florida took his life for that act. I can never equate the two...

I would have been content, in both cases, to put both cretins in prison for life but I shed no tears over their execution though I did shed a few tears for Carol...

[LWolf]

38. I understand your differences.

I have felt the same about people who have devastated those I hold dear, even though it wasn't murder. The woman who abused my little grandson so severely that 2 years after we finally got him away from her for good he still can't relate normally to others and requires intensive therapy, special classes, and other interventions to try to convince him that he is safe, loved, and to try to teach him how to interact with others in a healthy way...I don't value her life at all. Not that she is in danger of the death penalty. Slaps on the wrist. Finally, permanently losing physical custody is all she had to face.

Still, the coldness with which I think of her scares me. I don't want the responsibility, the karma if you will, for indulging in hate or revenge, or for dispensing judgement. That's why I'm against the death penalty. Not because I excuse the atrocities committed, but because I don't want the taint of violence on my hands or my conscience, or on those of my culture, my people.

[Guaranteed]

39. For me, the equation is made by looking closely at the situation

in which the prisoner is being executed. He is totally helpless, surrounded by security, often with his hands tied. No weapons whatsoever. No legitimate reason to take his life, other than revenge. But, revenge does not act as an insulator against the label "murder."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. You Could Also Be Describing A Victim

And in the victim's case there wasn't even a suggestion of justice...

[Nutmegger]

30. Not only is it state-sanctioned MURDER but also REVENGE KILLING

The death penalty can never be justified.

As it is, we're in good company with CHINA, IRAN and SAUDI ARABIA.

We're better than this as a nation. No to all forms of murder.

[AlienAvatar]

32. murder is the unlawful killing of

another person. Saddam's execution was "lawful" so I guess it's not murder. It was still wrong. A lot of heinous behavior was lawful at one time or another, but it was still heinous and wrong.

A hundred years ago the death penalty was accepted in virtually every nation on earth. Now, the majority of modern nations have outlawed it. Is the world headed in the wrong direction in this matter? I don't think so. I think the world is very, very, slowly headed toward a better civilization. Some are just lagging.

[Rex]

35. It would have to be if we all believe killing is illegal

under any circumstances.

[Disturbed]

43. America is constantly searching for a more humane method

to kill people. Once hanging was done publicly, even disemboweling, in America. That was eventually outlawed. Now America has moved to a medical method indoors with a few people in attendance and no public display. Yeah, the Death Penalty is now less gross and the public is not invited. It is still killing a person. Is it murder? Yes. Murder sanctioned by the State, the local State and the Fed. Govt. Yet, it is still murder as defined in a logical way. Most Americans are still in favor of the Death Penalty, which is why most Politicians say they are, as well.

[madeline_con]

44. Yes, the death certificate lists c.o.d. as homocide. n/t

[porphyrian]

45. Murder is simply killing someone intentionally, so yes. - n/t

[RB TexLa]

49. unjustly, if someone kills someone in a war intentionally it's not always murder

if someone removes a breathing machine from someone, it's not murder. If you kill someone intentionally that was about to kill you it's not murder if you had no other means to protect yourself.

[porphyrian]

51. You presume that killing a person can be just.

Justified, maybe, rationalized, yes, but killing a person is murder if you do so intentionally. Legal definitions may vary, but that isn't what the poll is about.

[RB TexLa]

56. something being justified is something that is just

you said what I said. The rest was saying the sky is orange after you have said it is blue.

[porphyrian]

58. Whatever you need to believe. - n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Technical Answer? Absolutely Not.

Since technically, murder is a written law with boundaries and the courts who uphold that law do not declare the DP to be murder, and the statutes that allow the DP to exist exempt it from being considered murder, than technically the DP is not bound by the written law of murder and therefore is not murder, if you want to be technical about it.

And there is no theoretical moral murder definition either. Murder is a physically written law, and if the DP is outside of that law then the DP is not murder. The DP is a 'killing', which is a descriptive term and not a law, but it can't be murder since murder is.

[blues90]

53. Yes it's murder

In a murder trial you have evidence even though not proof positive . But to take a life for a crime is premeditated murder , the ending of a life by deliberate choice .

[mitchum]

54. Judging from the results so far, there are not many legal scholars on DU

The death penalty is certainly a form of killing, BUT IT IS NOT MURDER

[fishwax]

62. the poll doesn't ask if it is *legally* considered murder

so I imagine that most people are answering within a philosophical rather than a legal framework.

[geek tragedy]

55. Is imprisonment the same thing as kidnapping?

The answer in both cases is no.

[Uncle Joe]

57. I would classify it as state sanctioned voluntary manslaughter,

and I am against the death penalty

[mdmc]

59. kick

:kick:

[genie_weenie]

60. Most everyone in the US and many DUers support the DP.

They just like it to be delievered by a 1000lb JDAM.

It's a simple equation.

Taxes=Death Penalty