People, I've spoken with at least a half dozen Dems in this area

[Skidmore]

over the past few days about the 08 race. Not one of them plans on caucusing for Hillary in this state and four of them said they would not vote for her if she won the nomination. I know these people to be solid Dems, but they just don't see her as a smart choice. That's my straw poll.

[KittyWampus]

1. Gee, a whole half dozen. That's certainly definitive. No mention of who they would vote for?

[Skidmore]

2. This is a rural area, first off. Second, Edwards is a top choice

and Obama is receiving much note.

[bliss_eternal]

4. I like Edwards...

wasn't aware he was running until a day or so ago. Glad he's back out there. Anyone know where he stands on same sex equality and marriage?

[WilliamPitt]

3. Some questions

First, what state do you live in? Are you in or near a city, or in a rural area? I ask because I have some concerns about voting demographics regarding Hillary. I have a fear that not a lot of white men south and west of Pennsylvania will pull a lever for her if she is the nominee, removing a large body of voters from the equation.

Second, regarding the above, are these friends male or female?

Third, how would you categorize them politically, beyond "Dems"? Are they left-leaning and unlikely to support someone who voted for the IWR, centrists worried about the strategy of her run, etc.?

If she wins the nomination, we are likely to see an interesting dynamic unfold. The strategy will be to win the northeast and west coast, as many great lakes states as possible, and play hard for some swing states. This will mean utterly ignoring the south and most of the west. I've been advocating for a strategy like this for a long time, but the November midterms gave my thinking a turn. We made serious inroads in areas in the south and west once considered unwinnable, and adopting a Gore-Stetes-Only strategy now feels like a step back.

[Skidmore]

6. I live in Iowa.

We're in Boswell's district, in a rural area. We have a small group of Dems in this local area who tend to be rather socially liberal and fiscally conservative. All believe that the war should never have been undertaken and are pretty upset that it is still going on. Pro-war rhetoric is not welcome. This was a mixed group of men and women, 3 of each. I, too, don't think that Hillary's numbers reflect her true standing. I believe that the Rs will try to get her through the primaries, and then we'll be sunk in the general election. I think my friends, however, are looking for someone new and I think Edwards' message resonates here because he is authentic in his experience and the way he says it. The same is true for Obama.

As another point, I do think people have Clinton/Bush fatigue--no...exhaustion.

[TwilightZone]

8. If people have Clinton fatigue, why is Bill STILL popular nationally and internationally?

He still draws 'em in everywhere he goes, so I don't buy the Clinton fatigue claim so many people make.

[Skidmore]

10. May I point out that we are not talking about Bill, but Hillary.

They are two different people.

[TwilightZone]

12. Yeah, right.

Are you claiming that your reference to "Clinton fatigue" referred to only Hillary? If so, you're the only person I've ever seen use the term with that in mind.

[Skidmore]

13. I pointed to fatigue with a Clinton/Bush ticket choice.

Are we to only have a choice between these to families for public office until the end of US history? I've seen more than one person roll their eyes and comment on this.

[TwilightZone]

17. She should be disqualified simply because Bill was president? Better change the constitution.

Hillary is about last on my list for the nomination, but claiming that she should be dismissed as a candidate because she's the wife of the only Democratic president in the past 25 years seems ridiculous, particularly considering that Bill was a pretty popular one.

It's a convenient excuse. Nothing more.

[Skidmore]

19. I didn't say she shouldn't try.

I don't think that you should assume she'll get to be the candidate though. She does need to make it through the primaries. I don't think we are being expected to coronate her.

[TwilightZone]

21. You weren't talking about the primaries

You stated that four of your six polled persons said they wouldn't vote for her if she won the nomination.

Apples and oranges.

You'll also note that nowhere did I assume that she'd win the nomination. I personally hope that she doesn't.

[Skidmore]

24. I think we are talking past each other.

I'm just passing on some brief conversations I've had over the holidays. I can't say I disagree with them much. I would be reluctant to give a vote to Hillary or any other DLC candidate myself. I don't like the way she has dealt with the IWR or its aftermath. I'm not interested in another frenzy of free trade mania or large political contributors sucking up the oxygen in DC. She doesn't appear interested in speaking to liberals but is already actively courting the conservatives.

Personally, I haven't decided what to do myself if she is the candidate.

[TwilightZone]

26. The point is - if the alternative is that we end up with another George W. Bush

voting for Hillary is a no-brainer.

[starbux by IV]

40. Is that really possible?

I mean, is it possible to get as bad as, or any worse, than what we have now?

I certainly do not want to see another Republican in the white house, but I know the liklihood of having a W clone in there is slim to nil - no one is as stupid or arrogant as he is.

You know the line...."it is always darkest before dawn".

[benddem]

34. Doesn't Clinton

fatigue have more to do with the relentless harangue by the reptiles of the Clintons during Bill's terms. I for one do not want Hillary to run for President...cause I know they'll pick right up where they left off. Anne

[tnlefty]

41. Because he is more intelligent and didn't fuck things up nearly as bad as

Bush**? Sorry, my republican mother who had a hate on for Bill is giddy that the Dems have taken control of the House and Senate. She voted for Dimson** twice and is longing for the days of Bill, but not Hillary.

She refers to Bush** as Voldemort is referenced in the Harry Potter books - he who must not be named - she will not mention his name anymore.

[TwilightZone]

5. Six people?

Six people does not a consensus make.

That's the problem with all of these anecdotal claims that one candidate or another is either completely unsuitable as a nominee or the perfect choice. It's easy to pick a few people and find the answers that you seek.

Hillary obviously has significant national support or she wouldn't be polling as well as she is. She's the wife of a very popular former president, and that certainly doesn't hurt.

As far as not voting for her if she gets the nomination, obviously these people aren't really "solid Dems." Otherwise, they wouldn't be claiming two years before an election that they'll either vote for a Republican or not vote at all. Those are the alternatives, right?

[Skidmore]

7. These folks are solid Dems and have been for years.

I know them well.

Maybe it's time to slap the donkey.

[TwilightZone]

9. They're not "solid Dems" if they think that voting Republican is better than voting for Hillary

It's that simple. If the alternative is getting another George W. Bush, then people who would choose that over voting for Hillary are NOT "solid" Democrats. They're selective Democrats.

[Skidmore]

11. They didn't say they would vote Republican nor should you assume that..

Just that they wouldn't vote for Hillary. I know of these couples writes in each other's names when they don't like the candidate on the ballot.

[TwilightZone]

14. It's the same thing.

Your idea of "solid Dems" obviously varies from mine. Voting against our nominee, regardless of who it ends up being, does not a solid Dem make.

[Skidmore]

15. A solid Dem doesn't need to be a blind Dem.

We've done that dance too many times out here and gotten some bad candidates in the process. No more.

[TwilightZone]

18. One more time: the alternative is better?

Just to be perfectly clear, your position is that it's ok to vote against our nominee (in whatever form - voting for Mickey Mouse, voting for your dog, voting for the Republican nominee) is perfectly OK if you just happen not to like the Democrat?

Sorry, but I have to disagree. That's how we ended up with Bush in the first place.

[Skidmore]

20. We got * because votes weren't counted or were not counted

correctly and a conservative Supreme Court handed him the office.

[TwilightZone]

23. It should have never been close enough for that to occur

It was in that position in large part because of Nader voters, some of whom quite likely referred to themselves as "solid Dems".

[WiseButAngrySara]

16. I agree. No to Killary for me. I want someone electable. n/t

[Rowdyboy]

22. Christmas, I was around a similar group, a half dozen 50ish white southern liberals

who were leaning Edwards, fond of Obama, and largely antagonistic to Clinton. All of them were former strong supporters of former President Clinton.

Of course there is a Clinton-fatigue factor. There are other families in America beside the Clintons and the Bushes-hopefully, 2008 will see two "non-royals" nominated. Let the other 300 million Americans have a shot at running things.

[Tactical Progressive]

25. I'm heartened by the fact

that without exception, the resentment against Hillary is pathetic and the reasoning underlying it petty and phony. In this case we have "solid Dem"ocrats who would rather abstain or vote for someone else before they'd vote for a Democrat. Hell, by those standards Dick Cheney probably qualifies as a "solid Dem".

[Skidmore]

27. So, like the Rs. we should just all shut up and line up behind

the party leadership's choice? No questions asked?

Learnin' our goosesteps out here in the boonies.

[TwilightZone]

28. Certainly not.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the nominees during the primary process. That's what primaries are for.

You're not talking about the primaries, however. You're talking about people not voting for the Democratic nominee in the general election. I would have thought after the past six years that winning the White House back for our party might be an important consideration.

[Skidmore]

31. Then let us front a good candidate and not bow to pressures

exerted by the corporate structure and the good ole pols club. It's is time to get some one in there who isn't so stagemanaged that they can't speak or act without being rehearsed. It is time to get someone in there who is a little closer in time to living like the MAJORITY of people do in this nation. We are not going to get elections that reflect a true consensus until we restore authenticity to the process and remove the commercialism. Quit playing "American Idol" with the election process.

[MindPilot]

29. I ask the same question...

All the Dems/libs/progressives I talk to--who will of course pull the lever for whomever has a D after their name--don't think that highly of Hillary. In fact I know of exactly no-one who likes Hillary enough to make her their first pick. So how is it she tops the polls by a wide margin?

[porphyrian]

30. The republicans have been trying to frame her as our nominee for some time now.

For that reason alone we should be cautious - the republicans think they can beat her.

[Skidmore]

33. I tend to agree with you.

And I think Hillary's people are using that to triangulate the nomination process. I hope people have learned how important it is to cast their vote well in the primaries.

[porphyrian]

36. We are in a unique period of heightened political awareness compared to what it's been...

...so I think people will be scrutinizing everyone who runs in 2008 carefully. We've got to work it to keep peoples' attention on what's important, but it's do-able.

[LibertyorDeath]

32. In order to get the Hillary in 08 answer

You must first drop the person on their head multiple times
and then ask the ?

[Deb]

35. Glad you brought this up

I'm in rural NY, I've talked with Repubs, Independents and Dems, people in business, farmers, parents of troops, darn near most of my personal GOTV list since the election. No one plans on voting for Hillary in the Primary/General yet most of those same people (myself included) love her as our Senator.

Jeez, Repubs are asking about Clark, Dems are asking about Gore, Feingold, Vilsack(?) and Kucinich.

It's getting really weird here. I'm surprised by the level of IWR awareness these otherwise nonpolitical people are showing. Maybe because most of the troops come from rural communities? I just don't know.

Someone needed to start talking about what we're seeing, it doesn't match the polls. I thought it was just my area. Thanks

[Skidmore]

37. Thank you. I thought I was in Oz for a while.

I've been getting flambeed on this thread but I don't see the level of support that the media keeps tossing out there. I just don't see it.

[starbux by IV]

38. I'll join them - I'm not voting for her.

like someone else said, she is simply not electable. Where I live, she's pretty much considered the antichrist. No way she'd win.

My fingers are crossed for Obama.

[left is right]

39. during primaries I am solidly ABH

in general elections I will hold my nose (if I have to) and vote for the Dem candidate

[Skip Intro]

42. I have a strong feeling that if Hillary really wants it, she'll get it.

I don't see Obamamania having a long shelf life. Her biggest threat to the nomination would be if Gore, or maybe even Kerry, got into the race. Gore would trounce Clinton in the primaries. Not sure how a Kerry run might go, but I do hope he runs.

Hillary has always impessed me as a woman who gets what she wants. And she and Bill edured all that crap thrown at them from day one, that's gotta make you tough. I don't care what the current polls say, Hillary, as things stand now, is the nominee - if she really wants it.

[PsN2Wind]

43. I hope you're wrong

I live in a slightly blue area of a red state and have yet to talk to a person that would prefer her to be the Democratic candidate. That includes a close friend that is in the local Womens Democratic Club, so it's not just men.

[mnhtnbb]

44. I think Hillary is smart enough to decide she likes the Senate, rather

than run for the nomination and lose.