I think I just had a change of heart on the death penalty

[journalist3072]

I think Sadaam's execution may have changed my mind on the dealth penalty.

I've been pro-dealth penalty. Whenever I looked at someone like Timothy McVeigh, and saw how he bombed that building knowing full well that innocent children where in there, I figured he deserved to die. Or seeing some other cold-blooded murderer not expressing remorse for their crime, I figured if they were executed, all the better. And I always tried to put myself in the shoes of victims' families, and thought 'If someone did this to my loved one, I'd want them to die.'

But seeing the video and photos from Sadaam's execution, something did not sit right with my spirit.

Make no mistake about it, I was never a fan of his. I don't think he was a good man, obviously.

But when I saw the footage of those hooded executioners putting the noose around his neck, I just thought, God cannot be pleased with this. It felt so out of order to me, like we were trying to do God's work for him; something that is His and His alone to do.

[cally]

1. That's how I feel...

God would not be pleased with us. Let God judge.

[roguevalley]

53. me too. I feel sick about it and I've never been for the death penalty.

[Nutmegger]

2. We don't have the right. It's all about revenge.

Thank you for sharing.

[seabeyond]

6. vengeance is mine saith the lord.... yup n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. In Saddam's case, it wasn't about revenge -

it was about shutting him up to cover our complicity in his crimes. He's been a CIA tool since the 60s and we couldn't have him talking before an international tribunal, so we saw to it he was tried, convicted, and executed for purely local crimes, nevermind the genocide, the use of proscribed weapons, the international aggression.

A kangaroo court, a show trial, and a quick execution - that's how we bring democracy to Iraq.

[seabeyond]

3. i kinda feel the same way. doesnt sit well with spirit.

let him rot in jail, but i am not going to become as bad as the evil person by killing them.

[waiting for hope]

4. That's always been my stance -

If someone plays God in taking a life - who are we, or better yet, "the state" to do the same? Death is an easy way out, I would prefer for someone to stay incarcerated till their own natural death.

[Erika]

10. When will W pay for his deaths to the Iraqis

At www.icasualties.org

[waiting for hope]

25. I hear you on that one....

But, I believe that it would be more punishing for W to slip into infamy as the real "Butcher of Baghdad" and not have the legacy he so desperately wants. He's pathetic and delusional and I think the Good Lord above does have a plan for him.

[karlrschneider]

5. I often waver on it but I generally manage to remember Jesus was against it.

...

[meti57b]

27. Probably everyone who has ever received the death penalty, was against it, including Jesus.

So of course, Jesus was against it!

[karlrschneider]

32. Yes, but that's not precisely how I meant it. But I know you know that.

:D

[renie408]

62. And once again, I blow coffee all over my laptop

I have got to learn to stop sipping hot liquids and reading here at the same time.

OH MY, was that funny.

[Erika]

7. The hooded henchmen gave everyone the creeps

W wanted this execution, ordered it, and had a good breakfast afterwards. He got the guy who threatened his daddy. Paid for by U.S. troops.

[sam sarrha]

8. when they killed mcV they covered up the origins of the attack..it acheived nothing

[rpgamerd00d]

9. Well, since there is no such thing as God, clearly we have to kill these monsters ourselves.

Get it?

[prolesunited]

16. I'm an atheist

and I don't believe in the death penalty. So, I don't get your post.

[Mojambo]

29. Killing is wrong unless absolutely necessary

The death penalty just isn't absolutely necessary.

Get it?

[Warpy]

45. What for?

They're all going to die, eventually. They might as well die in prison, with nothing but time on their hands to think about why they're there.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. No. I feel the same thing as the OP. Only I attribute it to the evolved trait of empathy.

A species whose members don't like to see one of their own killed has an evolutionary advantage.

But I'll applaud any interpretation of the feeling as long as it's there.

[Nevernose]

11. "Deserving to die" and killing someone

are two entirely separate things. And when we use the death penalty, whether here in America or our puppet state in Iraq, it's the same as us killing him personally. Killing a man, regardless of the reason, isn'tt supposed to feel good. If it does, then there's something wrong with you.

[journalist3072]

17. I think you hit the nail on the head

When you said that killing isn't supposed to feel good, and if it does, something is wrong.

That's how I felt last night watching CNN and seeing those Iraq-Americans in Deeborn, Michigan just celebrating, partying and whooping it up after the execution. One of the guys was saying how happy God must be with the execution, and I was talking to the t.v. saying "Don't put God in this mess."

Seeing those people celebrating his execution was the other thing that helped change my mind about the death penalty. Granted, I understand many of these people have loved ones die on Sadaam's orders. But still.

[roguevalley]

55. celebrating is awful but then, they have huge sorrows in their minds

and I don't think they were altogether thinking right. one guy who survived Saddam lost seven brothers. I loathe the death penalty but try and understand the emotions of those scarred by crimes.

[StClone]

23. The Dichotomy

I see you get it.

[tblue]

30. Voting for the death penalty is the same as being the hangman or the one who drops the pellets or

pushes in the needle. That's why I could never vote for the death penalty.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. thank you- for

taking the effort to watch the video-
for not just numbing yourself to what you were witnessing,

and especially for having the courage to question your own perspective, and to speak that in public.

I do not support the death penalty- for many of the reasons you cite.

If something is clearly wrong- doing the same thing, and calling it 'justice' doesn't change the act- only the name.


thank you for this post-

[Higans]

13. Perhaps there is one person........

[WhiteTara]

14. my exact thought since I was 11 years old

I have never changed my mind. I even had trouble with Ted Bundy and Henry Lee Lucas and they were evil incarnate.

[Orrex]

15. Congratulations on your change of heart!

You've made a very difficult realization, and I commend you for it.

For my money, I've never heard a justification for the death penalty that didn't amount to a lust for vengeance. Once the murderer, no matter how abominable, is rendered incapable of causing further harm, then an execution is simply a cold-blooded, state-sanctioned murder.

[Erika]

19. Then maybe we can at last stop war

I hope.

[LynnTheDem]

18. And look who stands tall with America on the death penalty...

IRAN.

CHINA.

SAUDI.

UZBEKISTAN.

Who doesn't? Every single "first-world" nation other than America.

Guess who is tied with the USA for number of children executed?

IRAN.

Just by the company we're keeping one should be able to see that something isn't right about the death penalty.

Thank you for having an open mind and one you're willing to listen to. Takes a strong person to do this.

:hug:

"Inasmuch as ye have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me.

We're screwed.

[Erika]

20. Makes you sick doesn't it?

How sad for our morality as a country.

[Say_What]

41. USA, IRAN, CHINA--Axis of Executioners...

US is third only to Iran and China as a world leader in executions. :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Say_What]

43. Amnesty International's 2006 Report about USA and DP

<clips>

...Death penalty

In 2005, 60 people were executed, bringing to 1,005 the total number of prisoners put to death since executions resumed in the USA in 1977 following a moratorium. Two people were released from death row on grounds of innocence, bringing to 122 the total number of such cases since 1973.

On 1 March the US Supreme Court banned the execution of child offenders – those aged under 18 at the time of the crime – bringing the USA into line with international standards prohibiting such executions. Twenty-two child offenders had been executed in the USA since 1977.

Executions continued of people with mental illness and disorders, of prisoners who had been denied adequate legal representation at trial, and in cases where the reliability of evidence had been questioned.

* Troy Kunkle was executed in Texas on 25 January, despite suffering from serious mental illness, including schizophrenia, evidence of which was not presented to the jury that sentenced him to death. He was just over 18 at the time of the crime and had suffered a childhood of deprivation and abuse.
* Frances Newton was executed in Texas on 14 September, despite doubts over the reliability of her conviction. She was found guilty on the basis of circumstantial evidence, and always maintained that she was innocent.

...Other concerns

A joint study published in October by AI and Human Rights Watch, The Rest of Their Lives: Life without Parole for Child Offenders in the United States, reported that at least 2,225 child offenders under 18 at the time of the crime were serving sentences of life without parole. Such a sentence for child offenders is prohibited under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, signed but not ratified by the USA. Of the cases examined, 16 per cent of the offenders were aged between 13 and 15 at the time of the crime and 59 per cent received the sentence for their first conviction. Many were convicted of “felony murder” based on evidence of their participation in a crime during which a murder took place, but without direct evidence of their involvement in the killing. The report called on the US authorities to stop sentencing children to life without parole and to grant child offenders serving such sentences immediate access to parole procedures.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/usa-summary-eng#11

[StClone]

21. Personal Pyres

We all know he was evil and deserved such an end.

A long post directed at those that think differently should just get behind the singularity of the thoughts on this by virtue of his crimes.

That however is not the argument. As I said we all know he was evil to the nth. The discussion is what purpose does it serve to execute when that is exactly what we abhor in Saddam as well as Bush's Iraq invasion.

The wheels of the Grim Reaper's dark chariot are greased by revenge, power and yes the need to seek amends in misdirected goals of justice.

He's dead. He perpetrated crimes against humanity and then we executed him. What is gained?

I hope he does not become a martyr.

[Erika]

24. We know that W needs to be known as the killer he is

and we wonder his punishment for killing thousands of Iraqis and troops for his imperialism.

[whistle]

22. When has taking another human life given lives back? Never....

...Saddam had been neutralized with his capture and found guilty and could have been locked away for the rest of his natural life posing no threat to anyone. This dog and pony show staged by the same forces which created the Iraq invasion and the establishment of all of Iraq as a killing zone for the past 3 1/2 years will see no end to the violence both in Iraq and upon the United States as long as we occupy that country.

The public broadcast of Saddam's execution will fuel far more hatred against America. Saddam's execution will appease none of his previous enemies and I believe will create hordes of new enemies against America. The black souls of Saddam and Bush will be united in eternity. But many more innocent people will needlessly die because of it.

[Erika]

28. There will be a payback against W

for his killing without need. The Vatican and Europe already see it.

[Contrary1]

36. I believe you are right about that...

"...Um Abdullah, a Sunni and teacher in Tikrit, 80 miles north of Baghdad, said she would wear black to mourn the city's favorite son.

'Saddam will be a hero in our eyes,' she said. 'I have five kids and I will teach them to take revenge on Americans.'..."

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2006/12/30/552061.html&cvqh=itn_gallows

[Arugula Latte]

26. Many innocent people have been executed, and many are on death row now.

That is all I need to know to make up my mind against the death penalty.

The whole thing is barbaric. Just because Saddam was barbaric doesn't mean we should become like him.

They could have left Saddam rot in prison for the rest of his life. There was no need for this disgusting p.r. move.

[MnFats]

31. i have always felt capitol punishment is barbarism.

hanging in particular is an outrage.
for any man, ANY man to have to face taunts while being prepared to hang may be the worst form of barbarism.
i have not viewed the photos and I don't think i can.
the man's neck is supposed to be grotesquely stretched and twisted.
it makes me want to week for my country....it surely would not have happened without the Bush administration and BUSH has certainly shown he just loves the death penalty

[Cass]

38. for any man, ANY man to have to face taunts while being prepared to hang may be the worst form of

for any man, ANY man to have to face taunts while being prepared to hang may be the worst form of barbarism.

I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. The taunting, the dancing around his body, the shouting, the publicized photos/videos made this a disgusting and despicable circus. I am deeply ashamed that the United States had any involvement in this barbarism.

[seabeyond]

54. here here. regardless of stand on dp. n/t

[K8-EEE]

33. K&R -- that is the Catholic view

I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore but I know that is their view on capital punishment. I don't know why they always act like not killing the guy is "doing nothing." Was there nothing to be learned from Saddam incarcerated? It looked like they had a lot they wanted to BURY with him....

[tblue]

34. My husband did a complete 180, too, because of the chance of killing an innocent person,

and the barbaric nature of the whole process. There's no joy in our household, no celebrating the death of Saddam, as evil and cruel as he was. We won't be watching video of the event or of people partying and happy about it. To rot in prison for years would have been a far worse punishment, imho. But, me thinks the B*shies wanted to shut him up and quick. Hence the expedited administration of 'justice.'

[tavalon]

35. I'm not pro-death penalty

but this situation isn't a good example of the death penalty. This was an assassination. Think John F. Kennedy except where the person murdered wasn't a good person. That is what you witnessed and of course it gave you a sour taste. Humans who have souls (I needed to have a way to delineate between thee and the shrub) don't want to see death of any kind but assassination is an especially heinous form of murder.

"We" weren't doing God's work, "we" were doing GWB's work.

[Dinger]

37. I Asked Myself This Question So I Knew FOR SURE Where I REALLY Stand On The Death Penalty:

If it was *, would it be o.k.? Even that was tough, at first. Then I thought, what if they killed *'s children, showed it on t.v. and everywhere in the media, and then had him locked up for a few years. Even though * is subhuman, I realized when I thought of it in these terms that the death penalty is no good, no matter who it is.

[Stephanie]

40. Glad to hear it.

This is sheer barbarism. It has no place in modern civilization.

[SeattleGirl]

42. I used to be okay with the death penalty, but did a 180 myself

a number of years ago. How on earth does killing someone as punishment for THEM killing someone make anything right?

I know that people who have lost loved ones to murder (and I have lost two this way) would understandably be so hurt and so angry that they would probably want the murderer dead. I do not fault anyone for having those feelings; it is not my place to make that judgment.

But for myself, I cannot support it, not even for Saddam. He was an evil, sickening piece of human drek, but I felt no joy at hearing he had been executed.

[bigmonkey]

44. I'm against the death penalty in all cases.

Because the act of execution is itself barbaric and cruel. It doesn't matter how bad the person is. Letting them live in prison gives them a chance to realize the meaning of their own actions.

I can understand feeling the need for revenge, or wishing the world to be entirely safe from a criminal. Here's what I do: Even though we don't have it now, I wish for that person to be permanently exiled, under humane conditions, to a remote land. Often I imagine a facility in the middle of Antarctica, or a facility on the moon. It's just a relief valve for me, when my thoughts get too angry.

I often think it like this: "I wish that person all the best that human civilization can provide to anyone exiled to Antarctica!"

I have very few people in this category - in fact I think all of them have shown up in the past 6 years.

[antigop]

46. Bush on the death penalty

President Addresses American Society of Newspaper Editors Convention
J.W. Marriott Hotel Washington, D.C.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050414-4.html

>>
Q Mr. President, in the aftermath of the terribly distressing national debate over the case of Terri Schiavo, you spoke of the need to establish a culture of life, and yet there's one way in which the United States has long been out of step with much of the rest of the world in terms of one appreciation of life, and that is in the use of the death penalty.

THE PRESIDENT: Right.

Q Can you please talk about a little bit about your view of the death penalty and how that fits into your vision of a culture of life?

THE PRESIDENT: Sure. Thanks. I have been supportive of the death penalty, both as governor and President. And the difference between the case of Terry Schiavo and the case of a convicted killer is the difference between guilt and innocence. And I happen to believe that the death penalty, when properly applied, saves lives of others. And so I'm comfortable with my beliefs that there's no contradiction between the two.
>>

[dicknbush]

47. Now might be a good time to think about the Chinese and their implamentation of the Death penalty

Basically it has turned into a processing plant for human organs. In China you can be executed for Embezzalment, or rape (I am not trying to diminish the crime of rape but one should not be executed for it), In china you can be executed for drug dealing, you can be executed ffor demeaning the state etc etc as well as murder. There were about 19,000 state sponsored executions in China last year (As far as we know). The human organ for transplant business out off China has balloned along with the death penalty. Basically China is in the business off killing people to sell their organs to the Highest bidder. One of their biggest markets is the Middle east. Saudi Arabia etc.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. Their generous application of the DP is a big enough monstrosity

I've heard this theory about the organs a lot. For the looks of it it may very well be true. Or not. I'd really like to read more about this -- sources? Please note this is not a "Ha! I bet you're lying!" kind of request for sources. I genuinely consider this up for debate.

[Uzybone]

48. If they had thrown 5 grenades into his "spider hole"

I would have been so much more comfortable with that than watching hooded thugs hang the man after that total sham of a trial. This method is so much sicker and depraved. Dress the man in a suit, hire some thugs to string him up, all the while we, the US pretend like we left this all to the Iraqis.

[dicknbush]

49. Article from Village Voice about Chinese organ harvesting

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0118,baard,24344,1.html

[dicknbush]

51. Some of the Crimes punishable by death in China

In China, human rights groups say, citizens have been executed for nonviolent offenses like taking bribes, credit card theft, small-scale tax evasion, and stealing truckloads of vegetables. Political dissidents have also been sentenced to death. Chinese embassy officials did not respond to requests for comment, but in the past the government has denied promoting the for-profit organ trade.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Well, I guess that answers my question above.

And it's almost physically impossible to buy toys for my kids without patronizing those fuckers. The world sucks ass.

[antigop]

50. October 17, 2000 -- third presidential debate

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2000c.html

>>
MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: In one of the last debates held, the subject of capital punishment came up, and in your response to the question, you seemed overly joyed and as a matter of fact proud that Texas led the nation in the execution of prisoners. Sir, did I misread your response and are you really, really proud of the fact that Texas is number one in executions?

BUSH: No, I'm not proud of that. The death penalty is a very serious business, Leo. It's an issue that good people obviously disagree on. I take my job seriously. And if you think I was proud of it, I think you misread me, I do. I was sworn to uphold the laws of my state. During the course of the campaign in 1994 I was asked do you support the death penalty. I said I did if administered fairly and justly. Because I believe it saves lives, Leo, I do. If it's administered swiftly, justly and fairly, it saves lives. One of the things that happens when you're a governor, at least oftentimes you have to make tough decisions. You can't let public persuasion sway you, because the job is to enforce the law. And that's what I did, sir. There have been some tough cases come across my desk. Some of the hardest moments since I've been the governor of the State of Texas is to deal with those cases. But my job is to ask two questions, sir. Is the person guilty of the crime? And did the person have full access to the courts of law? And I can tell you looking at you right now, in all cases those answers were affirmative. I'm not proud of any record. I'm proud of the fact that violent crime is down in the State of Texas. I'm proud of the fact that we hold people accountable. But I'm not proud of any record, sir, I'm not.

MODERATOR: Vice President Gore?

GORE: I support the death penalty. I think that it has to be administered not only fairly with attention to things like DNA evidence, which I think should be used in all capital cases, but also with very careful attention. If, for example, somebody confesses to the crime and somebody is waiting on death row, there has to be alertness to say wait a minute, have we got the wrong guy? If the wrong guy is put to death, then that's a double tragedy. Not only has an innocent person been executed, but the real perpetrator of the crime has not been held accountable for it. And in some cases may be still at large. But I support the death penalty in the most heinous cases.

MODERATOR: Do both of you believe the death penalty actually deters crime? Governor?

BUSH: I do. It's the only reason to be for it. Let me finish, sir. I don't think you should support the death penalty to seek revenge. I don't think that's right. I think the reason to support the death penalty is because it saves other people's lives.

GORE: I think it is a deterrent. I know that's a controversial view, but I do believe it's a deterrent.
>>

[pa28]

52. Well said.

I had a feeling in the pit of my stomach, convinced something was very wrong about the whole thing despite the scale of Saddam's crimes against humanity. Hard to put into words but I think I know what you mean.

Maybe it was the heckling and cheering but I was left wondering who the civilized people are supposed to be. Things fall apart at the center.

[Mendocino]

56. If corporal punishment worked,

no child would have to be spanked more than once. If capital punishment worked, we would executing fewer people instead of more.

[intaglio]

57. It takes someone with guts

even to question their beliefs. Think hard and long; if it is a permanent change in the way you look at the death penalty then you have my support, if it is not then you have my admiration for questioning yourself in this manner.

[sandnsea]

58. It does not reflect the God in us

That's for sure. That's what is so wrong with it. Just as with war, it represents a failure of civilization on all levels; and it's just sad that so many see it as a justifiable solution.

[sweetheart]

59. i watched the big lebowski last night...

...and saddam is a character in the film, working in a dream bowling alley
handing out shoes. The scene became so incredibly sad, for the first time,
ever i seen it, and not funny... the film is spoilt for that now.

[dddem]

60. Dead Man Walking.

That's what finally got me off the fence. I felt the same way when I saw that movie that you do now. It's not for us to decide that God makes mistakes.

[renie408]

64. I don't go at it from a 'god' standpoint

I am anti-death penalty, for the most part. I still sometimes tihnk that it might not be so wrong for the predators of children. I cannot think about what a five year old girl goes through while she is being raped by an adult man without thinking that death might just be a little too good for him. And it has been proven over and over that once someone is THAT perverted, they are not being rehabilitated. We raise both horses and dogs and if we had an animal that was irretrievably socially screwed up, no one would think twice if we had it euthanized rather than allow it to savage the other animals.

But over all, I am anti-death penalty. It is a pointless exercise in vengeance to me. I also understand that it might be the mother in me that wants those men killed and it is likely not to be based on a rational social agenda.

[Heidi]

65. Killing a someone to demonstrate that murder won't be tolerated

always has seemed incongruent to me.

Thanks for having the courage to change your mind, journalist3072.

[sellitman]

66. The EU called it "Barbaric"

I agree 100%