The Pledge of Allegiance, my son and his teacher..she DENIES EVERYTHING!

[in_cog_ni_to]

OK. I received a letter from the Superintendent today. He requested the principal do an investigation. Here is what the principal reported to him:

This is the first she has learned about the disagreement regarding the Pledge.

His parents have not contacted her to request he be excused from reciting the Pledge.

As far as she can recall, from the very first day of school my son has stood for the pledge. She cannot recall if he recites the words, but says he stands "respectfully" with the other students.... (after she yelled at him the first time for not standing, he stood occasionally). (on edit) I wanted to add...since I sent the letter and the principal talked to her she changed the seating arrangement in the class and was standing RIGHT BEHIND MY SON during the pledge to see if he would stand or sit. HE STOOD BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE HAD TO.:grr: I then explained to him again that he did not HAVE TO stand if he chose not to. He has since been sitting.

Since last week after the principal asked her about the "incident" she has been observing my son and he has been standing, but nor reciting the pledge. (TRUE, because she reprimanded him for not doing so).

At no point this year has Mrs. Jones singled **** and most definitely has done nothing intentional to harass or humiliate him regarding the pledge.

She has not heard or been aware of any discussion among/between students regarding the recitation of the pledge.

Then they mention an incident that she recalled that happened during the holidays that related to religious beliefs or "patriotism"..she asked the children to write a persuasive essay on the use of real trees vs. artificial trees. Knowing my son is Jewish, she asked him if he would want to do an alternative assignment, he said yes and she complied. What THAT has to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, I have NO clue.

Then there's this part of the letter from the principal....Mrs. Jones was quite amazed by the tone of Mrs.*******'s (me) letter. I may have some teachers here who would have acted this way with students, but Mrs. Jones is not one of them. If I receive phone calls regarding her, they are without exception positive. I cannot recall any time that I received a complaint about Mrs. Jones.

The letter goes on to say how they are willing to do whatever it takes to clear this up.


THEN, the superintendent sends the Illinois School Code, "The Pledge of Allegiance shall be recited each school day by pupils in elementary and secondary educational institutions supported or maintained in whole or part by public funds." (105 ILCS 5/27-3) It is generally understood that students who object are not compelled to participate. This is a standard we recognize in our schools and it has been endorsed by Illinois Governor and General assembly at the time of the 2002 amendment to Illinois law.

Then, he goes on to say that I got my information, second-hand from my son. HE got his information from the teacher and based on the information presented to him he has NO COMPELLING REASON to censor or otherwise discipline Mrs. Jones in accord with the request stated in my letter. Clearly, if he were to do so, he would be violating HER legal and contractual rights. IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN THAT SHE ACTED ILLEGALLY BY HARASSING OR HUMILIATING. By contrast she readily recognized that if my son or myself had requested he be excluded from reciting the pledge, it would be within your rights to do so.

Is that the way it works? We're suppose to request that he not stand if he doesn't want to? WHY? It's against the law for her to say anything to him. If he's not standing, he doesn't need my permission or consent.


Then he tells me to contact her. The woman who has called my son a liar. I cannot believe she denied this.

Here's the original thread, if you want to read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=179656

Here's the thread I started about the ACLU contacting me about this issue. I sent them a copy of the letter I sent to the Superintendent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2417925

So, she says my son is a liar. She denies she ever said anything to him about the pledge.:grr: I want to know if I should call her? OR should I let the ACLU deal with it and let them just send their letter? The ACLU will be calling to talk to my son (the attorney is calling on Friday) to get the story from him and then send a letter to the Superintendent. I am so pissed off right now, I'm afraid of what I might say to the woman. What should I do? *sigh*

[DesEtoiles]

1. Freedom of speech includes

the freedom not to speak - to remain silent. You cannot be forced to mouth words.

This is First Amendment - this is Federal law and it trumps that pissant school code. Period.

[Glorfindel]

2. Let the trained professionals of the ACLU handle it, please...

I know it would be emotionally satisfying to say terrible things to this woman, but counterproductive in the long run. Cool heads can deliver a chilling message to this teacher. She'll "get it," trust me, and maybe no other child will have to be abused and humiliated.

[TaleWgnDg]

3. As an attorney, myself, I can only (ethically) say to you one thing.

And that "thing" is contact your own lawyer. Retain/hire your own lawyer. Apparently you (your son) has done so. Wouldn't it be just common sense to wait and see (patiently) what that ACLU lawyer has to say? About your son's legal rights, that is? I would say so. Why would you want to solicit legal advise in DU? That's what you are doing, btw.

I wish you and your son well.

.

[Sydnie]

she is looking for two things with this post

suggestions and emotional support. She is not attempting to get definative legal advice.

:eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. The ACLU has already contacted me. They want to send a letter

to the superintendent after they talk to my son. They said if the school hasn't done anything to rectify the situation, they would send the letter. I got this letter today and the teacher denied everything. If she denied everything, the school's not going to do jack shit to her. THAT is why I ask DUer's (the smartest group of people EVER) opinions. They know my story. Thanks for your input.

[Sydnie]

4. Wasn't there a second student involved in this?

Is there no one in that class with you son that would attest that what he said was true?

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. Yes, there were 2 or 3 other children who didn't stand.

He called one who was in his class to ask if he recalled how Mrs. Jones yelled at them for not standing for the pledge and he said , "Yeah, I remember." My son then asked him if he remembered what she said so he could back my son up and the kid said no, he didn't remember the specific words just that she yelled at them. I think that boy's mom and dad may not know that he doesn't stand and he doesn't want them to know? That was my guess. The other kids that didn't stand, he'll have to talk to at school tomorrow.

[Sydnie]

12. I would suggest calling the ACLU back and see how soon they

can come and talk to these kids. The sooner they get this documented the better. If this teacher has been put on notice "unofficially", she may back off on this issue, but begin with something else. Not all teachers are like that, but those that I know (and I know many well), will hold a grudge and wait for something new to use to relieve their frustration with the situation.

Contact the ACLU again tomorrow. If you feel like that is going too slowly, you might want to get an attorney to document their statements now for use later.

I am not surprised at the schools reponse. I am shamed that it reponded that way, but not surprised. The last thing they want is a lawsuit.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. I'm going to call him tomorrow.

He wanted me to contact him if I heard anything from the school. I'll see what he has to say and what he wants to do. He'll probably want to send the letter since the teacher has denied everything.:grr: At this point, I am so angry, it probably wouldn't be wise for me to call her or go visit her.

[Sydnie]

16. Do not repeat do NOT contact her directly

Let the ACLU do their thing. Talk to the boys that have knowledge and anyone else that was in that class, they surely will talk to everyone.

:hug: It will take a while, but you will make them aware for years to come. It will be worth it. :hug: again!

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. OK. I won't contact her.

I'll let the ACLU work their magic. The attorney said they take THIS ISSUE very seriously and they will make sure the school understand that.

:hug: back atcha!

[Gormy Cuss]

38. "they take this issue very seriously" is code for

"we fear the ACLU/negative publicity."

Their entire reply stinks of defensive posturing.
And the Christmas sensitivity anecdote is some blather that the teacher sputtered out to prove that she would NEVER do something like force him to recite the pledge.



:toast:

[Innocent Smith]

5. many years ago

When I was in Jr. High there was a girl in our class who did not stand up or say the pledge. When I asked her why she said it was because she was a Jehova's Witness. Someone else asked why they had a problem with and she explained. We learned something about Jehova Witnesses and their beliefs. No one ever gave her a problem about it.

Other students in the class will be able to tell your attorney exactly what happened in the class. Kids notice stuff like that.

[Hissyspit]

28. Yes, but they won't necessarily talk about it. They may get nervous and

back off. It is worth trying to get witnesses, but remember, the teacher is in control of their grades and they may fear retribution, so be prepared for that. I had a professor harassing me in class years ago and I asked other students to go meet with the dean to back me up, when it came time to do so, everyone backed out. As well, the students may get pressure from their parents to "not get involved." Just keep that in mind.

[kevinbgoode]

45. I swear...if that was happening to a child of mine. . .

I'd be recruiting adult friends who could "visit" the classroom EVERY morning when it is time to recite the pledge - sometimes inside, sometimes just outside the door where you can look in. . .and I would tell that principal that you neither trust the administration or that teacher in this situation.

If the principal wanted to solve the problem, he could have asked your son if he wanted to come to the OFFICE until just after the pledge - then he could join the classroom. Or he could have recruited your son to do something ...like report to the gym equipment area or visit the library or something for those few minutes rather than continue to keep him in that situation. It also seems odd to me that the principal hasn't gone to the classroom to look several times - which would be the best way to check things out.

[bbinacan]

6. You need to contact the Union

that represents this teacher. Let them know what is happening.

[CoffeeCat]

7. Good luck with this...I feel for you...

I dealt with a situation in my child's school. She's only in kindergarten, but I was appalled at how devious educators can be.

It's obvious that the principal has attempted to "clean up" this situation. He's smoothed away all of the rough edges, to avoid a lawsuit and bad publicity. What a complete liar.

They are both lying. They are both protecting their own butts---and they are willing to throw your son and your entire family over the railroad tracks to do it. These people are supposed to care about children and their education. What is your son learning from this experience...that adults lie? That the truth doesn't matter? That anyone can worm their way out of a tough spot by manipulating the facts and covering up?

I empathize with you and I commend you for your courage. This is not easy at all! It is so difficult because you just want your son to learn in a healthy environment. You did not ask for this fight. They created it and you responded with courage. Now, they're twisting the facts.

My situation is very different from yours. My daughter was being bullied. The teacher and principal avoided calling it a "bullying situation" and did next to nothing. My daughter was bit, hit, kicked, spit on and treated horribly, on a daily basis. I raised holy hell and let the principal know that I was documenting every incident and that I considered this harassment. My daughter is only in kindergarten! I couldn't believe the stonewalling and game playing that I experienced. These people are supposed to help children!

I do understand your frustration and how awful this stuff can be. However, you will get through it. There will be a resolution to this. You've all ready made progress. Your son will NEVER be singled out again if he doesn't wish to stand. You've all ready won. Explore all of your options. Talk more with the ACLU and brief them on the latest "lies" concocted by the principal and teacher.

Do what is best for your family and let us know what happens.

I commend you and also your brave son! You're a good mom!

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Your poor daughter! Damnit! We have gone throught the bullying crap

too. It was awful. My son was bullied for his lunch money for WEEKS before he told me about it. That was in 4th grade. Then we had the religious bigotry on a daily basis to deal with ever since kindergarten. This is the first year he hasn't had to deal with that and he's in 7th grade.:( I swear, it never stops. When he was in 2nd grade his teacher shook him because he was talking in line. We had a meeting with her and she denied it, of course, so I decided I would would volunteer to work in her class to keep an eye on her. I worked in her class 3 days a week. I never had another problem with that old hag.

I know this school HATES me because I make them address this stuff.:(

Give your daughter a hug for me. I know exactly what she's going through.:hug: No 5 year old should have to go through that!:grr:

[phylny]

35. I recall reading this on the Parenting Forum.

How did it all work out?

[CoffeeCat]

52. Hi phylny...thanks for asking...

It took quite a bit of time to get this resolved.

My daughter was bullied from day one of kindergarten. The little girl who was bullying her, seemed to have some serious problems. I was very concerned for each child.

I first contacted the teacher in October about this. Finally, I met with the principal in early November. The principals' suggestion was to teach my daughter to be more assertive--while disciplining the bullying child and trying to get her to stop.

I agreed that my daughter did need to be more assertive. However, I was dismayed that they treated her as part of the problem. I decided to use the situation as an opportunity to strengthen my child's confidence and help her to learn that she was valuable and worth fighting for.

The biting, hitting, spitting, kicking, pushing continued. I continued calling both the teacher and the principal. They seemed to tire of me calling.

Finally, after an incident, I called the principal and told him that I had been documenting all of the "abuse" and "harassment" (I used those words). I told him we had documented 17 incidents. Finally, the bully was given counseling--and my daughter was as well--to ensure that she was ok too.

We haven't had any incidents since December.

I learned a great deal from this situation. I read a lot online about bullying. Most schools do absolutely nothing. Most have no written policy to protect children. It's completely outrageous. I learned that parents must advocate for their children and fight like hell--and be prepared for stonewalling and games. Also, it never hurts to let these people know that you are documenting the situation.

Thanks for asking. My daughter is doing well!

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. You were advised not to ignore the principal

And to start a paper trail with the superintendant.

I have my own history ... it was confusing, to say the least, to dye Easter eggs when I was a devoutly Orthodox Jew, but my mother was cool with it - we actually had a great time - and that helped me through the episode and my later transition to the secular world. I suggest that your attitude, however righteous, may do more harm than good.

Good luck with your cause and hope you can keep a sense of humor as you recover your momentum.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. I'd go to the ACLU

They know this type of stuff really well.

[bbinacan]

18. Why not go to

the teachers union as I suggested. If that fails, go to the ACLU. Maybe do both? What do you think?

[Bozita]

21. The teachers' union works for teachers

You're looking for an effective principal.

Good luck.

[cdsilv]

13. I've had to deal with this kind of teacher/nazi with my eldest daughter...

(don't know if this will help, but here goes...)

...my kid was in Catholic school (her last year there) and her teacher had some serious discipline problems with our daughter. According to Sarah (my kid) the teacher was unreasonably strict, knowing my daughter, I could believe that she talked in class when she was bored by lessons that she already knew.

What broke the logjam? Nothing that you would expect. Sarah had actually listened to her teacher and when Christmas came around she gave her teacher a large sponge and a bucket.

Her teacher had continually 'bitched' (or complained) about the inefficiency of her erasers and that she could not effectively 'clean the blackboard' (or greenboard, as it was).

After both her mother and I had talked with the teacher and the administration of the school - remember, we were paying a monthly fee for her to attend....nothing happened.

Sarah solved the problem in a typically Christian way - she forgave her oppressor and gave her what she wanted. Her teacher could now clean her blackboard!!

The teacher actually wept that Sarah would do that.

From then on they had a great relationship - Sarah could do no wrong (and didn't - we made sure of that).

You get more from giving than complaining....

Please understand - we are Christians, not Catholics or Evangelicals. Jesus said that all we have left is faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is Love.

Definitely NOT the GOP view of Xtianity

This happened in the mid to late 80's

Oh yeah, George W. Bush eats boogers. I saw it on the internet so it must be true.!!!!!

[Katherine Brengle]

19. I think you are doing the right thing by contacting the ACLU, but one...

question: does your son want the help?

I don't mean to sound rude, because if he does, by all means take it as far as you have to in order to get something done about this. But I would be careful to make sure that this is what he really wants, so he doesn't end up resenting you for it.

Aside from that, the Pledge is fascist and should be eliminated from all of our schools. I stopped saying it after 2nd grade and my high school didn't even have a rule providing for it, so it was never done.

No citizen should be forced to voice allegiance to a free country, much less a waving piece of cloth.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. Yes. He wanted me to address it so the teacher would stop embarrassing him

I asked him if he wanted me to address the issue with the Superintendent and I got a resounding "YES! I want her to stop embarrassing me." And now she expects me to believe he just decided to come home TWICE and make these stories up about what she said? Why would he do that? I am so pissed off that she has made my son out to be a liar when she herself knows the damn truth. Shame on her.

[Katherine Brengle]

66. Very good>>>

Just wanted to make sure.

It sounds like your son will grow up to be an independent thinker rather than a drone--which is a very good thing.

Kudos for standing up for him--a lot of parents wouldn't bother.

[upi402]

20. nazi's suck, fight the idiots while we still can

[JCMach1]

22. At some point, there will be diminishing returns in persuing this

It might time to evaluate if you should just drop it...

At the very least, you have put her on notice with the Principal and Supt.

She will be shit-scared from here on out.

[fujiyama]

23. This is so ridiculous

WTF do they need a letter from you for? This doesn't require getting a permission slip.

The superintendant is obviously an idiot. I would keep in touch with the ACLU. On edit, after reading the other posts, I realized their advice was better. Have the ACLU contact her. It's best in your interest not to contact this woman.

Meanwhile I would also try to switch your kid's teacher. I don't think your son should have to deal with such a bitch for a teacher.

[alphafemale]

24. Look up the book "To the Flag" by Richard Ellis

It's very informative.

[murielm99]

25. Brilliant!

DUers have the best suggestions.

I learn more from reading posts here than I do anywhere else. I am buying this book. Thank you.

[LWolf]

26. I'm so sorry.

It looks like you've been had with this one.

I don't have much to offer, other than this:

Continue your conversation with the ACLU; see what their response to the letter is. If there is no further action there, then--

Meet with the teacher, with the principal present. Bring them a signed and dated letter from you stating that your child does not need to stand or recite the pledge, and is not to be singled out in any way with consequences or comments for this choice. Then make an appointment to meet with the superintendent. Take his/her letter to you, and a copy of your signed letter. Tell him upfront that before taking one side's word over another, he should have talked directly to your child. Perhaps the conversation should have happened with the child, the teacher, and the parent all in the room at the same time. Since it didn't, you've complied with all requests, and you hope the superintendent will be less obstructive should your child ever need him again.

[i miss america]

29. Hey in_cog_ni_to, you might want to take a look at this

I don't know if you've seen this yet, but it involves a similar case in South Florida.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/yahoo/sfl-ppledge02feb02,0,1116478.story?coll=sfla-newsaol-headlines

Good luck to you.

[Carni]

30. Good luck

My daughter currently has a teacher that I CANNOT STAND...I get no where with the woman because she gets loud and talks over me when I try to offer commentary.

She is targeting and blaming my kid for everything known to man and I am about ready to go postal! :(

[txindy]

31. Let the ACLU deal with it.

If the 'teacher' and her superiors are going to spout lies and nonsense, let the ACLU handle them. They're used to handling creatures such as these. They'll compile the facts and deal with everything. Trust them, cool your jets (for now, anyway :evilgrin:), and let the 'teacher' deal with the fallout of her actions.

[Maddy McCall]

32. Just be glad that your son doesn't attend school in south Mississippi.

It wouldn't be the Pledge that concerned you, it would be the teachers making students pray aloud in the morning before class starts, and saying the "blessing" before lunch.

It's frustrations like yours and the one above that made me bring my son home, to be homeschooled. They claimed that they didn't target my son. I know for a fact that they did. It ended with physical abuse (I have photographic documentation), and, for my son's self-esteem, I just couldn't leave him in that situation any longer.

They have ways to punish kids who don't "fit in." Just keep your eyes open, and fight like hell (even hire a lawyer, if you must) to see that your son isn't mistreated. This kind of a battle can take its toll on him, and at some time, you may just have to toss out the white flag and bring him home, for HIS sake.

[npincus]

33. as the daughter of a teacher

I say my Mom would never have behaved like such an ass!

That said, I think the best result would be to sit down with the teacher and an ACLU mediator, discuss the situation and have her admit that she did chastise your son and recant her denial, what you believe was wrong and what you would like her to do to-- you don't have to say much, let the mediator do the talking. Personally, I would want the teacher to turn the whole episode into a civics lesson for the class- in our First Amendment Right to Free Speech and Freedom of Expression-- perhaps she would be willing to do that as an alternative to any other punitive measure. If she would include an apology to your son (or an acknowledgment that what she had done was wrong) in front of the class would be great. I would really try to tamp down your fury and keep this from escalating into a legal battle. Having filed a law suit and had family members involved in them, you do not want to put yourself and your family through that, emotionally and financially, when you could accomplish your ends otherwise. At least, try. My advice.

As far at the teacher's letter to the principal, that was CYA letter, self-defense. Again, I do not defend her for being a schmuck, but schmucks have mortgages and kids to feed, and perhaps she panicked for fear of losing her job.

My 2 or 3 cents right there. Good luck.

[maveric]

34. The dumbass teacher should concentrate on educating your son...

and not on seeing that he maintains loyalty to the damn flag! What an idiot!
My son was also put on "referral" for refusing to stand and recite the pledge. They called me and I told them that its not mandatory for students to do the pledge ritual and if he doesn't want to do it, then thats fine with me. The asst. principal told me that we are at war and its important that we support our country and our president, yadda..yadda..yadda... I told her that my son respects this country but is not in agreement with the unauthorized invasion of an innocent nation that was no threat to us. Then this idiot said to me "Didn't 9/11 mean anything to you?" ARRGGHH!!! Then I went off on her about what did Iraq have to do with 9/11... Anyway.... he does not stand for the pledge if he doesn't feel like it and he has my consent and they cant do a damn thing about it.

Concentrate on educating our children, not teaching them to carry the torch of propaganda.

[ultraist]

36. Oldest trick in the book

"but Mrs. Jones is not one of them. If I receive phone calls regarding her, they are without exception positive. I cannot recall any time that I received a complaint about Mrs. Jones. "

They always say this. I had an assistant principal say precisely the same thing to me when I complained about a teacher screaming and being verbally abusive to the children. This is a woman whose screeches are heard echoing down the halls. My child has said this AP has witnessed her freak shows. He was lying.

They want to single you out and crazy make by saying you are the ONLY one. Ya, right.

[0rganism]

37. She lied to the principal, and I'll bet money she would lie in court

Watch out for that!

In any case, she is not admitting tort -- which may be smart, given the gross violation of civil rights in which she engaged. Hence, you will need other sources to corroborate these incidents. If possible, work with a lawyer to contact the other children in the class (including those who do stand during the pledge), you need to obtain affadavits to that effect.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. GEEZUS! Update on this witch of a teacher! She did it AGAIN to another

child today! BUT...instead of reprimanding him in front of the class she took him out into the HALL (no witnesses that way), asked him why he wasn't standing for the pledge and he told her he didn't stand because he didn't want to and didn't have to. THEN, the witch called the PRINCIPAL into it and he stated to the boy he was not allowed to sit for the pledge UNLESS HE HAD HIS PARENT'S PERMISSION!!!! Then, he told him he didn't know IF IT WAS AGAINST HIS RELIGION, but was going to email the boy's parents and tell them about the incident. The boy is a friend of my son and they BOTH sat for the pledge today and she took the friend out into the hall and not my son.

I called the attorney at the ACLU this morning, I faxed him the letter from the superintendent and he thought it was best to wait and see if the teacher continued to harass my son. He felt since the superintendent has acknowledged the case law and Illinois school law about the pledge and "generally understood the issue" that the teacher had been "INFORMED" about the law and that should stop her from harassing my son. He also said he doubted that any of the kids would come forward because of intimidation, fear of making the teacher mad. It may have stopped her from harassing my son, MAYBE, but not other children. Should I call the ACLU back and have him send his letter? These people are looking at this as a RELIGIOUS issue, not a LEGAL/FREE SPEECH issue. THAT is why the teacher made mention of the "holiday" project...they think it's against my son's religion.:eyes: Idiots. SHE DID NOT GET THE MESSAGE! and THE FREAKIN' PRINCIPAL WAS INVOLVED IN THE "INCIDENT" TODAY! They-Do-Not-Get-It! THIS just PROVES they all LIED! They know she did what my son said she did and they are all in support of her and her breaking the law. The Principal TOLD THE CHILD HE NEEDED HIS PARENT'S PERMISSION TO SIT DURING THE PLEDGE!:grr: THEY ARE ALL FUCKING LIARS! and are making MY son out to be a LIAR when they KNOW he told the truth.

I can't tell you how shocked I was when my son came home tonight and told me this had happened today. AFTER the investigation, she continues with her harassment and the principal was involved???? *sigh*

Also, my son asked kids in his class if they remembered the 2 incidences with her reprimanding them and they all said no. They didn't remember.:( So, it's my son against these assholes. BUT, now we have this second incident with another child which is PROOF that my son told the truth and THEY KNOW HE TOLD THE TRUTH! I have ALWAYS believed him. I know he wouldn't make this shit up just because he felt like it.:eyes:

[Sydnie]

40. How about the parents of the kid from today?

Would they be willing to join you or are they going to bop him upside the head and tell him to stand?

If you could get them to join you in lodging a complaint that would be sweet.

I would ask the ACLU to send them a letter to let them know that your son or any student has their own set of rights and you don't need to give your permission for him to excercise them.

You need to talk to that other boy and see if he remembers what the teacher said today. Tape record it if you have to, video would be better though. Have him say just what happened today with the teacher and the principal.

I would imagine at this point the principal thinks your son has "started trouble" by making an issue of this. Too bad for him! They need to understand it's not a religious thing in this instance but a free speech expression.

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. NO DOUBT they think my son is behind this, but this is the other

boy who has never stood for the pledge either. He sits and sings "Oh Canada" LOL...I LOVE this boy. He's a good kid. He and my son are 2 of the 3 who don't stand. There's a young lady who remains seated too. I think I may call his parents and feel them out on this. I know them, but not well, but I think I'll explain to them that I am in communication with the ACLU and see what they think. I'd like to find out from the boy whether he got in trouble from them (before I call them). If he did, I will assume they don't like it. I don't know if they know he sits during the pledge or not. If they don't know, they may not be happy about it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. Shit. I just had my son call the boy and he's GROUNDED for a week

because of this. I'm on my own. Well, the ACLU will hear from me tomorrow.

[Sydnie]

44. Shit!

Can you catch this boy on his way into the school tomorrow and ask him what they said to him?

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. My son called him and asked him exactly what she said and he told him

that she asked him why he didn't stand for the pledge. He told her because he didn't want to and he didn't have to. THAT is when she called the Principal to the room and the Principal told him that he didn't know if it was against his religion, but he was going to email his parents about it and find out. He's now grounded for a week :( My son repeated this to me as the boy told it to him over the phone. It's almost straight from the horses mouth.

[kevinbgoode]

42. I would not contact the teacher at all.

It seems obvious that the two stories are miles apart - and we all know that being an adult (including being a professional) does not mean that the teacher doesn't lie. And if you suspect she is lying, there's no point in you dealing with her directly any longer - you already know what she is all about.

I have a sneaky suspicion that this is some "conservative christian" who believes in coercion and regimentation. As for the principal's letter, you should note for yourself that he had no reason to include that stuff about never receiving a complaint about Mrs. Jones. It is irrelevant and belittling of the fact that he is receiving a complaint NOW.

If your son has friends in the classroom who have witnessed this, isn't there some way to get corroborating information from them? And is it also possible to request your son be moved to another class (provided the school has another class at the grade level)?

The superintendent has posted Illinois state statute and noted the way it is supposed to be handled. The school does not need a request; in the supers explanation he only said that it was generally understood that students who object are not required to stand and recite the pledge. That makes it school policy that he not be intimidated to stand.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. NONE of his classmates recall the 2 reprimands he told me about.

But today's incident corroborates what he told me she did. The only difference is she took this boy out into the hall so she had no witnesses. She definitely has "an issue" with kids not saying the pledge.

[PassingFair]

53. My daughter has gone back and forth with the whole pledge thing...

She worked up the courage to stay seated one day, and no one noticed!
She is in 9th grade now, in another school, and doesn't want to be the
"tall blade of grass", so she stands, but when the teacher isn't looking,
she extends her arm in a Nazi salute instead of putting it over her heart.

Little things mean SO much!

Sorry you are having to be embroiled in this.

Stay as calm as you can. You are in the right here, as is your son.

You will prevail.

I suggest you contact the Freedom from Religion Foundation (if the "under god"
portion of the pledge is your son's objection) they are a WONDERFUL
organization and will offer your great advice as to how you should proceed!

Good Luck!

[toddaa]

48. The Pledge is not a disposible issue

I know that a number of DUers have blasted Michael Newdow for alledgedly wasting time on "trivialities" but freedom of conscience is not a triviality. Requiring children to swear allegiance to a flag and saying the words "under God" and then "indivisible" is ritualistic patriotism meant to exclude some children in the presence of their peers. The sooner this fascist little exercise is removed from our schools, the more "indivisible" we will be.

[kath]

54. It IS indeed a fascist exercise, and it really bothers me that so few

(even here at DU) fail to see it for what it is.

[TahitiNut]

64. I totally agree.

Coercing children, who're not even legally empowered to sign a binding contract, to recite an Oath is an appalling exercise in jingoistic mind-control. It is now more evident than ever that "liberty and justice for all" is a quaint myth bearing no relationship whatsoever to the ideologies of the Bush/Cheney/neocon regime. The phrase "under G-d" is merely a compounding of this atrocious behavior.

[dsc]

49. I would insist on a schedule change

Clearly you don't trust this woman and this woman probably doesn't merit your trust. I will say that I think she does have a right to inform parents about kids not standing for the pledge though she is incorrect about them needing to give permission. But in your case, clearly you are OK with his behavior and he has a right to engage in it. I would imagine there must be at least one other teacher whose room he could be in for the Pledge. That would be an easy way out for him.

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. He has her for 2 classes. : (

English and Literature. I'm sure there are other classes he can be moved to and after the ACLU sends their letter, I will probably move him. I don't think she'll say anything to my son about the pledge now, but she may reflect this in his grades. He gets A's in her classes now.

[dsc]

51. Unless it is a tiny school

there almost certainly is. She can only have three of each kind of class which means that the school would have to have only about 75 to 90 in each grade. That would be very small for a middle school.

[Beausoir]

55. I feel really sorry for your son.

No child should ever be subjected to this kind of political tug of war.

Why can't we just let the children off the hook and let them be kids?

[Balbus]

56. Absolutely 100% correct!!

But I guess nowadays, because kids are not attending political rallies starting at the age of 5, is the reason for all the ills in the country/world.

Good luck with this.

[Sydnie]

59. You obviously did not read the original post from a week ago

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't aware of all of the facts and spoke about the situation anyway. in_cog_nito had no idea that her son had choosen not to stand for the pledge or that there was an issue until he had been harrassed by this teacher for the second time. She didn't instruct her son to go to school and create the situation. It was his choice to do so. She is merely backing him up in his choice. He is making his own statement, excercising his rights, and is getting support from his family. Heaven forbid!

[txindy]

60. It was her son who took this stand on his own.

Now his mother is backing him up to the fullest.

Do try catching up with the facts before forming an opinion.

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. I don't think my son wants your pity. He chose to do this on his own.

I had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Here's my post in response to someone who posted the same snarky remark on the other thread and the letter I sent the superintendent and ACLU. Have a nice day.

He came home at the beginning of the school year and told me this teacher made a snide remark to him for not saying the pledge. I had NOTHING to do with his decision to do this. He chose this on his own. I didn't even know about it until he got in trouble for it and the TEACHER is the one who made it an issue. Had she kept her mouth shut, followed the law and just let him not say the pledge, we wouldn't even be discussing this. FYI I did NOT send my list to the Superintendent, ACLU and school board. And just to let you know, my son was PSYCHED that I was dealing with this woman. OK? He wants her to stop embarrassing him. I guess he could just be a good little boy and stand up and say the pledge, make the teacher happy, make you happy and all will be well in the world. Never take on a fight that needs to be fought. Never stand up for what's right. Don't fight for principles. That's worked really well so far. I can tell by the wonderful situation our world is now in. We (Liberals/Progressives/Democrats) stayed quiet way too long. Why do you think she feels secure enough to make my son feel bad for not saying the pledge? Was it because she's had other parents confront her on the issue? I don't. She did it because she has always gotten away with it because no one was willing to take on the fight, like you suggest I do. I'll bet the woman NEVER does this to another child after this. THAT makes this a fight worth fighting. IMCPO

Here's the letter I sent today:


Mr *******,

I would like to bring to your attention an incident that took place, for a second time yesterday, concerning my son and Mrs. Jones. Yesterday my son, **** *******, exercised his legal right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of the day. **** returned home and reported the incident and the humiliation and harassment he had to endure at the hand of Mrs. Jones, carried out in front of the entire class. This harassment and humiliation by Mrs. Jones is unacceptable and will not go undocumented this time. I am requesting that Mrs. Jones make a full apology to my son, in front of the class, just as she did when she took it upon herself to ridicule him in front of the class. I request that Mrs. Jones refrain from such action in the future. I also request that Mrs. Jones be informed that it is illegal for her to behave in such a way as supported by the court decision of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. That decision stated, in part:

"West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to political institutions or symbols. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

Barnette overruled a 1940 decision on the same issue, Minersville School District v. Gobitis (also involving the children of Jehovah's Witnesses), in which the Court stated that the proper recourse for dissent was to try and change the school policy democratically. In Barnette, however, Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote for the majority that "the very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Jackson added in an oft-quoted sentence, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.""

_____________________________________________________________
**** does not have to stand to say the Pledge and must be FREE to do so without being harassed by his teacher. At the beginning of the school year he told us she did the same thing and we decided to let it go, thinking she may have had a particularly bad day, but for this to happen twice, tells us she must have a different reason for harassing children who have chosen not to say the pledge.

It's illegal to force a child to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It's illegal to harass a child who has chosen not to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Further supporting the legal issue, Alex has our permission and our support should he choose not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

I request that a copy of this notice be placed in Mrs. Jones employment file, should any further legal action be necessary. This has been CC to the ACLU via email and a paper copy via snail mail. We will also be sending a copy to the School Board.

[Beausoir]

69. Calm down! I wasn't referring to you as a parent.

Jeeze. Please take a deep breath. No one here is blaming you.

I was merely stating that it is WRONG to put kids in the middle of "our" political battles.

That applies to teachers, administrators and parents alike.


Your child is in a terrible situation, right? Not of his own doing, right?

I feel really sorry about that. I feel sorry for any child who is used for political gain.

[tblue37]

57. Did any of his friends in the class--or anyone--

hear or see what happened when she harassed him and badgered him into standing up? If he has witnesses, she is toast.

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. There's one boy who remembers the teacher saying something, but

not WHAT she said. PLUS, that is the same boy who got in trouble yesterday for not standing for the pledge and is now grounded for a week by his parents. They won't get involved in this. IMO, the issue with the boy from yesterday backs up what my son has said. The reacher and principal are liars.

[abex]

58. there are mothers who teach obedience to all authority

and there are the good mothers who do not.

[Sydnie]

63. check out this article in_cog_ni_to

http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060202/NEWS01/60202003/10

This is good news for you and your son.

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. Thank you, Sydnie! I bookmarked it. That's our story.

I'm still waiting for a call back from the ACLU attorney. I'm anxious to see what he has to say about this latest little escapade with these people.

[kath]

67. Please give us an update if your have any more contact with the

ACLU or the idiotic school personnel.

[usregimechange]

68. See this:

"Barnette and its progeny make clear that
any school district or state adopting a Pledge
of Allegiance policy or law should avoid
coercing participation and punishing refusal
to participate in any aspect of the flag ritual,
including, standing, saluting the flag, and
reciting the Pledge. Schools should consider
using permissive rather than mandatory language
to introduce the recitation of the
Pledge—“You may now stand to recite the
Pledge,” rather than, “Now we will all stand to
recite the Pledge.” Schools may require that
non-participants maintain order and decorum
appropriate to the school environment.
Schools may allow students choosing not to
participate in the Pledge to leave the classroom,
but they should not require them to do
so. By making participation voluntary, schools
not only will be avoiding First Amendment litigation,
but will also be teaching children that
tolerance of dissenting views does not threaten
American values, but rather strengthens
them."

Burns, Thomas. (2002). The Pledge of Allegiance: Teaching Tolerance for Political and Religious Dissent. National School Boards Association's Council of School Attorneys: ISSN: 1069-0190