I'm taking a public stand in Norway, please help me DU

[mogster]

Today I have taken a stand.

I have taken a stand against hate-speech and secrecy, a stand against Bush and the war doctrine.

I have taken a stand against Norway's support for George W. Bush, and God help me I'm gonna pay for it.

Norway was, three years ago, a nation of peace. We are only 5 million people and wished no harm to anyone.
Then we were brought into the 'Coalition of the willing' by a political fraction supporting Bush. Public voices in opposition to the war, and Norway's participation in it, was silenced by the same fraction which is now pushing ahead for Norway's 'right to free speech' by offending muslims all over the world.

I've made a public document, a call for a democratic investigation into why the charicatures of the prophet Mohammed was publicly embraced by parts of the Norwegian press. I want an open and just debate about this, where all aspects of the process leading up to publication should be brought up.

Please help me, DU. You are the only people that know what's going on, and I have no one else to turn to.
Please sign my call for action. It's in Norwegian, but I've made a translation here:

-------------------------------
I WANT A PUBLIC INVESTIGATION OF THE 'MOHAMMED-CASE'

To: The Norwegian people

This document is a demand for a public invstigation of Vidar Selbekk and Per Edgar Kokkvold, and their campaign for 'free speech'.
I want a public investigation into this matter which covers all aspects of it; who talked to whom, who influenced Selbekk to publish the charicatures.

My freedom of speech is now limited, because I can no longer speak - with credibility - in countries not used to the 'western' understanding of liberalism.

My freedom of travel is limited because I'm a Norwegian. I have never experienced this before, and never thought that Norway, yes NORWAY folks, would be seen as an ugly crow now croaking on the shoulder of the Bush-dictator.

My economic freedom is limited, because this will have consequences for our economy, on a much longer term than we can see today.

I know where this campaign comes from, and who's running it. I know which people that got Norway into the Iraqi war, and also how it came to be. I also know there's a connection to this present matter, because the same people that removed vital voices from the Norwegian debate prior to the war - against the will of the Norwegian people (68% was against this).

I want these people brought to justice for taking part in something that can only be compared to the ugly cartons of Jews published before the second world war, then claim it's about 'freedom of speech'. By doing so, they are stealing my whole life, my present and my future.
I know what freedom of speech is, and what it implies. I also know what democracy is and how the counter forces work.

I am a Norwegian citizen and I've had enough!

You must fight for your democracy now, Norwegian citizen - if not, you will lose it forever.

This 'freedom of speech'-campaign is fake - Kokkvold (chairman of the Norw. Press Assoc.) did nothing to defend Petter Nome when he was removed from his position as a journalist in the Norwegian Broadcasting before the war, but claimed it was OK that Nome had his emails stopped in secrecy, without him knowing.
He did protest when Nome was removed, but thought this was OK. He was 'surprised and shocked', but didn't take a stand.

Read more on the main url for this call for action. (The url is Norwegian).

I want a open and democratic debate about this campaign and the events that led Norway into the Coalition.

When 1/4 of the world population hates us, we have the right to know every aspect WHY!
-------------------------------

Please help me, DU. Sign the call for action.
It's in Norwegian, but there are some translations at the side of the fields.

Your email will be obfuscated, only your name will be visible.

The call for action is here:
http://www.opprop.no/opprop.php?id=nitro

And here am I.
http://www.nitrogen.no/index.php?cat=47&art=0

[annabanana]

1. I had no idea!

Is Norway's press as badly compromised as ours? I guess I had assumed that Scandinavia was getting the information that our media had suppressed.

[mogster]

3. The noose is tightening, annabanana

Norway is under immense pressure, and I feel so sorry for our immigrant communities.

Here's a printscreen of the call for action, to help you people that want to sign:

[hwmnbn]

2. done.....

I applaud you for your efforts and hope they result in an investigation. Is the whole planet going nuts?!

[mogster]

4. Thank you!

The whole planet is going into extremist psychosis, it seems.

I'm a vocal defender of freedom of speech, but not when it offends people unnecessary in an evil way.
Thank you again.

[regnaD kciN]

15. The problem is...

I'm a vocal defender of freedom of speech, but not when it offends people unnecessary in an evil way.

...that there's very little speech on anything but the blandest, most inane subjects that won't offend some people unnecessarily in what they consider an evil way.

There are lots of people who would find the political views posted here on DU every bit as offensive to themselves as the cartoons were to fundamentalist Muslims.

For that matter, as a Christian, I find a lot of the negative comments about Christianity here offensive. But I'm not demanding that they be taken down.

Let alone demanding that DU be shut down.

Let alone that Tim Kaine (governor of Virginia, where DU is headquartered) apologize for my offended feelings.

Let alone that mobs should attack and shut down any local franchises of businesses based in Virginia, or any Virginia tourism branches in my state.

Let alone justifying that people from Maryland, just because it's right next to Virginia, be kidnapped in "retaliation" (as happened to a German tourist in Palestine yesterday), to assuage my offended feelings.

In essence, I'm really wary of anyone who, when "offended" by someone else's expression of free speech (directed not at them but at the world at large), should immediately decide that the answer is forcing the suppression and silencing of those ideas, or maybe even killing the person making them.

And I'm especially wary of any religious group, be it fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Christianity, or some other fundmentalism altogether, that feels that the rest of the world must change its laws to protect their right not to be offended at the cost of everyone else's freedoms.

[Ladyhawk]

28. This atheist agrees with the Christian.

We shouldn't cater to fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist Christians or any other extremist group because they might get offended. I'm so sorry, but we don't have the right to go through life without being offended.

Sorry, Muslims. Suck it up.

Since the religious reich has been trying to return us to Medieval times I get offended every day. I think I'm in the right and try to do something about it, but that "something" doesn't include violence against Christian fundies.

[danalytical]

36. I'm all for free speech, and that includes

politically incorrect cartoons. I believe the governments shouldn't apologize. The west has the right to it's free speech, and that';s one of the things I love about our culture. We can dish it out and we can take it on the nose. I couldn't care less that some people find it offensive, the cartoonist doesn't live in Saudi Arabia and shouldn't have to live by their social norms and religious laws. No we will not give up our freedom of speech to cater to a bunch of angry muslims half a world away. I think the paper should run cartoons mocking all the terrible things connected to religions. How about one mocking Jesus using the bible as an excuse to control territory through warring on other countries. Maybe one about Moses stepping on Palestine. Maybe a giant cow god eating Hindu's for lunch. I'm all for it. Serve it up with a side of fries.

[centristo]

38. that right there is the difference

other groups will see an offensive cartoon about their religion and write letters to the editors, call in to talk shows, march on city hall, etc. All over the Muslim world I have seen pictures of the most knee-jerk reaction to those cartoons. Effigies, flag-burning, boycotts, hostage-taking, etc..

I don't think we are ethically at an "apples to apples" level with the Muslim world anymore. Un-PC to say, but it appears to be true.

[danalytical]

40. It's horrible but it's also obviously true

When was the last time you saw people from Connecticut burn Middle Eastern countries flags and take over their embassies in retaliation for some Muslim cleric calling for the destruction of America? It just doesn't happen. And I'm not about to agree with a bunch of fanatical violent lunatic mobs. Let them get upset. What are we suppsoed to do? Censor ourselves because it offends fanatical lunatics overseas? It isn't the cartoon that is the problem, it's angry mobs of crazed fanatical hatemongers that's the problem.

[Ladyhawk]

41. Hey, if we coddle the Muslims, we have to coddle the Christians, too,

in order to remain intellectually consistent. If we do that long enough, we'll be right back to Inquisition-like times if we aren't careful. Give fundy Christians an inch and they will take a mile. As a ex-fundy, I know. They have a sense of God-given entitlement. The only thing that separates fundy Christians from their Muslim counterparts is a bit of coddling from those of us who don't agree.

In order for freedom to ring, all ideas must undergo scrutiny: religious and secular, alike.

[formernaderite]

44. exactly

please people..I can't take any more religion around me. This is craziness that people are apologizing for these very mild cartoons. I don't know what is happening to the western world.

[mogster]

66. That's a very good point, Ladyhawk

I've also noticed this.
To be fair to Norwegian journalism, I give them your credit in having isolated that very crucial point, because this may have been a part of their desicion process. This is a huge point, politically speaking.

I understand the principal stand they took, I just don't don't understand how they arrived there.

As a journalist you should say fuck religion, yet I see religious undercurrents everywhere. And a political stance, which is what this post is all about.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

106. A fatwah issued in the early '90's

They don't burn flags and take over embassies.
When they are "offended" whole counties are laid to waste.

(Remember those bin Laden Fatwahs)

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

92. Oh my, that photo is from Michelle Malkin

I wouldn't put too much stock in it, rainbow gatherer

[centristo]

37. well said - nt

[mogster]

63. I can agree to all of these points

But they can also be turned around, and it is up to your decency/common sense to apply the right value. Freedom is a knife.

Look, I grew up with the punk movement in the 70's, I don't give a fuck about appearances. But I give a fuck about offending other people, especially if they're weak or down in any way. And they are, the Muslims.

This isn't a campaign for killing freedom of speech, the last stand. I'm no fundie, lol.

It is about a campaign in Norway where I want to highlight the press, and why they take the desicions they take.
If they are the people I thought they were, they would welcome it, embrace criticizm and use it to be even better at 'freedom of speech'. But they don't. I have a number of examples that the Norw. press is following the way of the American press; down the drain and into the sewer.
I don't accept that, and believe journalism is worth fighting for. And, mind, I'm not even a journalist. I'm just tired of lies.

[donco6]

104. I agree - good points. eom

[EFerrari]

5. Done. Be careful, mogster, you know how these people are.

And, by checking the box, will I get email in Norwegian? :silly:

How are you distributing this document? Should we send it to our networks?

:hi:

[mogster]

8. Thank you, my friend

It so good to see you :-)

If you think it will help, distribute it. This needs publicity.

Big :hug:

[EFerrari]

10. Will do. Who is the dog on your web page?

The one who is a link?

Norwegian looks nothing like Spanish. lol

Big :hug: to you.

[mogster]

13. It's the Fremskrittspartiet guard dog

Fremskrittspartiet (The Progress Party) is the Norwegian Bush supporters.

Guess what these people are called for short:

Frpere. Frpere and freepers - it's a small world...

[EFerrari]

14. Wow. And they call themselves the "Progress" party.

How Orwellian and fitting. The world is tiny. :wow:

[Selatius]

6. Is Norway's news media corporatized and a propaganda tool?

If it is so, then I could potentially see a reason why the corporate news media there would print such inflammatory cartoons. The purpose would be to "invent a threat" by provoking anger at Norwegians from the offended Muslim community. If an attack of any kind results, then the rightwing faction in Norway can then claim that their position was justified all along because of the threat. Nevermind the fact that the anger and subsequent threat only materialized after Norway decided to enter the Iraq War.

[mogster]

11. I don't know

I don't know why we suddenly want to offend the whole Muslim world, but I can imagine it has deeper roots than the obvious.

I think you have correctly assessed the situation.

Why doesn't the rest of the press talk about this - that's beyond my understanding.

[bloom]

58. This may be the next "9/11" that we have been expecting....

Look at the reaction of people around here. It seems like 99% of the people have fallen for it.

For one thing Americans don't know that there are hate speech laws in Europe. So all they think is "freedom of speech, freedom of speech"!!


Bush has been trying to offend the Muslim world - since 9/11 - even though he makes coddling remarks every now and then. I don't see how anyone could see the US aggression in the Middle East as anything but anti-Muslim/anti-Arab. They have been trying at every opportunity to inflame Muslims - it's as plain as plain can be. Abu Gharib, torture, using women as bait - all along the line. THEY WANT TO BE INFLAMMATORY.

Bush is under immense pressure from the PNAC group to "do something" about Iran. And he wants it to look like it's the Iranians fault. So this is just the perfect thing.

On the wikipedia timeline:

"A Pakistani political party, Jamaat-e-Islami apparently offers a roughly $10,000 reward to anyone who kills one of the cartoonists<2>. It was later found out this was just a rumour, spread by the Danish Embassy in Pakistan, with no basis in fact."

People really need to see this for what it is.

[CJCRANE]

71. Yeah, well now RW Europeans

can say the muslims "hate us for our freedoms".

(This reminds me of a recend thread on DU about PSYOPS material planted in foreign media).

[EFerrari]

7. kick

[lakeguy]

9. done. living in sweden here and the whole mess is all over

the newspapers. damn shame crap like this happens:(

[mogster]

12. Whooa! Takk, takk!

Jeg visste jeg kunne regne med svenskene! :-) :-)
(I knew we could count on the Swedes!)

[xchrom]

17. international evil DUERS

yeah!:applause:

[EFerrari]

18. Don't you love it? I love it. Let's give Special Agent Loser

something interesting to read. :evilgrin:

[tocqueville]

16. Norway hasn't a very good record in freedom of expression

regarding religion. What I know of Norway has been one of the few countries to ban movies like "Life of Brian" for blasphemy !!!!

the Christ and the Catholic Church have been far more "ridiculed" than the Prophet, and this by people from a Christian enlighted culture. The difference is that the Christians (at least in Europe) accept it (they don't like it) but most Muslims don't even understand that somebody could even think of attacking their religion. Even if the outrage is exploited for political purposes, their leaders can count on mobilisation.

When a Swedish homosexual painter depicted Jesus hanging on the cross but naked and with a 12' hanging penis and toured Europe with it, nobody here really gave a fuck. "Bad taste" people said. But Christians didn't start to burn museums.

that's the difference

1) I don't think that Denmark had an "anti-muslim" agenda when they started the caricatures
2) Mohammed is depicted in Muslim countries specially Iran and has been through history, even if it's more an exception.
3) the fact that Mohammed is not to be pictured in Muslim countries is not a reason to have it forbidden in other countries.
4) exactly the same arguments against the caricatures were (are) used against Salman Rushdie
5) freedom of expression is a basic human right. If tomorrow a Muslim cartoonist depicts Jesus killing Muslim babies a lot of people will be outraged. But no true democracy will deny him the right to do it. And I doubt that it would trigger a wave of burned embassies, boycotted goods, death threats and kidnappings.

The most pissed will be Robertson, Falwell, O'Reilly and Co. But we know where they stand regarding freedom.

and finally where was the Muslim world's outrage when the Talibans blew up incredibly valuable Bhuddas, a part of the heritage for the whole humanity...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. I also think...

...that it's moronic to demand the punishment of the entire country of Denmark for the actions of a few of its citizens.

[Cats Against Frist]

24. And to brandish AKs at the EU Parliament

They didn't win too many friends in Europe with THAT one.

[mogster]

25. Well..

> the Christ and the Catholic Church have been far more "ridiculed" than the Prophet, and this by people from a Christian enlighted culture. The difference is that the Christians (at least in Europe) accept it (they don't like it) but most Muslims don't even understand that somebody could even think of attacking their religion. Even if the outrage is exploited for political purposes, their leaders can count on mobilisation.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, Norway banned Life of Brian in '79 (but it was released for viewing some years later) and yes, most muslims (apparently) don't like their religion being attacked. Or their countries bombed. Norway has been a part of the Iraqi coalition and also is partaking in the campaign in Afghanistan.
You can't bomb people and at the same time pretend to be the peaceful nation of yesterday, with the right to take on fight's like this, for the freedom of speech and democracy.
I'm not afraid to take that fight, but you choose the time and moment where you are supposed to be credible.

> 1) I don't think that Denmark had an "anti-muslim" agenda when they started the caricatures

Denmark is a very vocal, high profile supporter of Bush & neocon policy, they partake in Iraq and have done so since the beginning of this. Fogh Rasmussen is more keen than Tony Blair.
I don't think Denmark had an agenda in publishing cartoons, countries seldom do. I'm not interested in Denmark, I'm interested in my own country. I know for a fact there's an anti-muslim agenda behind this episode.

> 2) Mohammed is depicted in Muslim countries specially Iran and has been through history, even if it's more an exception.

Yes, and also in Norway. But not as a general, official policy by the press at the same time when we're partaking in a war that looks more and more like a religious war.

> 3) the fact that Mohammed is not to be pictured in Muslim countries is not a reason to have it forbidden in other countries.

You mean; countries now involved in an unjust war in Iraq? Could we also say that there was no reason to bomb that country to smithereens and invite to a general civil war.

> 4) exactly the same arguments against the caricatures were (are) used against Salman Rushdie

And also against the Norwegian hiphop band Gatas Parlament who put up an anti-Bush website in Norway. It took the Oslo embassy 20 minutes to call the police and have it taken down. To appease the mighty clown in Washington. At the time I shrugged my shoulders. Of course - no one wants to ruin the Norwegian-US relationship </sarcasm>

> 5) freedom of expression is a basic human right. If tomorrow a Muslim cartoonist depicts Jesus killing Muslim babies a lot of people will be outraged. But no true democracy will deny him the right to do it. And I doubt that it would trigger a wave of burned embassies, boycotted goods, death threats and kidnappings.

As I said, there's a difference to print pictures in a small, Christian extremist newspaper and for the Norw. Press Assoc. to embrace it. If neo-nazi's did publish ugly cartoons about Norwegian Jews (and believe me, they do) it would have been their right because of our freedom of speech. However, if that campaign had been embraced by the official Norw. press assoc. my reaction would be the same. This is hate rethoric, and you should be careful in using it as a 'proof' of freedom of expression.

As for your last sentence, I can tell you for a fact that defending a PRINCIPLE today that muslims should enjoy the safety in my country that any other minority does enjoy produce death threats.
It also produces the old stigma that you're a 'muslim lover', 'traitor' and so on.

[Dorian Gray]

33. I think it's important,

though we do this more than other communities, to remember that the actions of a few do not reflect the beleifs of all.

Having said that, however, I think it's a fantastic point in pointing out the destruction of Buddhist temples that happened in Asia (I believe in Afghanistan, by the Taliban). Islamic fundamentalists have little regard for destroying relics of other religions, and I believe that they are fair game in editorials and cartoons. (Just as I believe that Christians/Athiests/Pagans/Jews/etc. are fair game!)

I can understand complaining about it, writing letters to the editors about it, threatening not to buy from the advertisers of the papers, whining about it on message boards, etc. But rioting? Violence? Just no.

[unhappycamper]

19. I'm sorry to hear our fascism is affecting you directly.

Peace and good luck, my friend.

Note to Agent Mike: GFY

[mogster]

26. Thank you, unhappycamper

I appreciate it more than you know :-)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Done!

Take care, my friend.

[mogster]

27. Thanks, ayeshahaqqiqa!

I will. Take care you too :-)

[katinmn]

22. You got it, mogster! K&R

And thank you for this:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0410/S00215.htm

and the
"Tell Him No" ad Norwegians placed in the Washington Post before the 04 election. I saved a copy of the ad. I was very moved.

:hug:

[mogster]

29. Yes, katinmn

I promoted that ad at home, to collect money for publishing.
It seems like another time, no? At that time I was sure Kerry would be the president and that the Bush nightmare was almost over.

:hug:

[EFerrari]

23. Don't forget to rate the thread up so more DUers can see.

:kick:

[Ladyhawk]

30. I'm going to reiterate what the Christian said:

Don't cater to or enable these fundy extremists. Make them learn to deal with being offended like the rest of us. They're a bunch of whiny cry-babies. With guns. Similarly, if we start catering to our own home-brewed Christian fundies we'll end up back in the Dark Ages. With guns.

As an atheist I have to deal with being offended every day, but I don't deal with it by declaring some kind of holy war against those who offend me. If someone oppresses my right to free speech, I'll take it through legal channels until the system completely breaks down. (I probably couldn't take up arms even then.)

Grow up, fundies. The world doesn't revolve around your world view.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Done. Racism masquerading as free speech is still racism.

[fakeshemp]

34. Islam is a race?

?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. To the racists producing the cartoons..yes.

[fakeshemp]

54. Nice bit of mind reading

But the fact is, Islam is by no stretch of the imagination a race- and unless they were drooling half-wits, the cartoonists will have known this. Islam is a global and multi-ethnic faith; most of the Muslims I know are white (my home town has large Albanian and Bosnian populations). An alarming number of the anti-free speech posters here seem to think that "Muslim" is a synonym of "Arab". Frankly, attempts to ascribe racist motives to this criticism of a religion - a body of ideology - and thereby to silence it, are nothing better than McCarthyism.

[mogster]

60. Good post!

And yours too, Tierra_y_Libertad :-)

I like this debate. I feel all criticism in this thread is positive.

We need to keep our heads straight here. This campaign affects Europe now, not just Norway. I'm revelling in all the attempts in the newspapers across Europe now, at depicting Mohamnmed without actually .. taking the same angle, if you know what I mean? ;-)
That is a way to asserting the freedom of speech without using it as a provocation.

Europe is Europe, you can't keep us silent. What I want is for Europe to keep it's head on it's shoulders and make a difference in the upcoming months. Europe, or the US for that matter, need a radicalized Muslim world like it need a two ton elephant sitting on it's head.

It's fair to say it's a paradox that that elephant is invisible, while the cartoons bring our societies into turmoil.

[CJCRANE]

72. However

the muslims in Europe generally belong to specific racial communities, e.g. Pakistanis in UK, Indonesians In Netherlands, Turks in Germany, North African arabs in France etc. which are associated with the religion.

[smirkymonkey]

43. Only when it's convenient for people who love to cry "racism"

whenever anybody criticizes someone who isn't European or European American.

[rman]

98. is satire of religious fundamentalism racism?

[donco6]

105. My answer is "no."

Where does this end? We very slightly offend someone's all-too-easily offended religious sensibilities and they feel justified to commit violence? Would it be "racist" if it had been a Buddhist parody (of which we've seen thousands)? Christian? Would we be saying Christians were justified in committing violence because of - say - a TV show? Maybe one like The Book of Daniel?

I doubt it.

[Canuckistanian]

32. Done!

Good luck with this.

[mogster]

35. Thank you for your help, folks. One word of warning:

Please take note that you don't need to put your real name on this call for action.
If you do, someone might compare that page with this thread, and connect the names and DU nicks.

I'm sorry I didn't warn about this in the OP.
Please take care of yourself.

[Moosepoop]

99. Mogster, if you're brave enough to use YOUR real name

on this, when you're the one LIVING THERE, :thumbsup:
then I'm sure as hell not afraid to use mine!

Looks like everyone so far has used their real names, with one notable exception.
Thanks for the warning and concern, though.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. Signed!

Best of luck to you!:applause:

[mogster]

62. Hugged!

:-) Appreciated, in_cog_ni_to.

[rinsd]

45. This is disgusting....

Fucking neo mccarthyism over a cartoon dealing with religion in a secular country.

I am ashamed so many Duers are for it.

[Dorian Gray]

46. Agree...

I'm all for freedom of speech, but that does not involve calling for an investigation for someone whose work you disagree with. Even if it is disgustingly horrible, how can you justify this call for action?

I read your points in your earlier posts, and I totally understand your POV. This just seems antithetical to your proposed love of Freedom, though. Perhaps I'm looking at it too simplistically.

[mogster]

51. My distrust in the mass media

comes right off these pages, Mr. Gray.

My radicalism, if that's what you call it, has it's origins in the people I meet here everyday.

People that has to suffer their kids killed and their country hated throughout the world because no one dares to question the unquestionable.

People that suffer every day under the lack of credible, confirmed facts because of public secrecy about huge, nation-changing events.
And this will change Norway, there's no doubt about it.

The people in my country resembles what is dubbed 'the sheeple' here at the DU. They don't believe in realpolitik.
Because of that I don't win any popularity contests by defending Muslims, as you can imagine. It's the worldwide trend, it appears.
But I will do it, just as I defend Jews or gay people, as a matter of principle. Or any other minority group easily branded as a target for the sheeples attention, while the real agendas remain hidden.

I want truth, not revenge.
The circumstances demands it, and under those circumstances this is no act of freedom, but a declaration of war.

[Dorian Gray]

111. Defend Muslims all you like.

I think the cartoons were in bad taste, myself. I would choose NOT to make fun of anybody's religion, as I think it's bad manners. But, I don't think that warrants an investigation into WHY certain newspapers permitted the publishers to run the cartoons. I don't think you're radical at all. As a matter of fact, I believe that to be a slightly REACTIONARY response to the situation, rather than a radical response. Though, I don't believe you to be a reactionary. Rather, from what you've said, you think that the cartoons were wrong to print. (So do I!) The differences in our opinions is that I don't want to force the government into investigating this problem. I think that the public, in this situation, has the most power. But, we know the stated reasons WHY a bunch of papers printed the cartoons. (Solidarity.)

Whether we buy that reason or not is beside the point. What exactly will you learn? That the cartoonists in Denmark were right wing, and that many other papers printed the works in their pages. I don't see how getting your government to make committees that will investigate the paper in Norway that RE-printed the work will do anything about this. Send in editorials to the papers that printed the cartoons. Tell them why you're pissed off. Boycott the papers. Get a campaign going. That's what we all should do when we disagree with something.

(And all of my above thoughts are completely separate from the issue of the violence that has broken out as a result of these printings.)

And, by the way, I am a female. (So that's Ms. Gray!) :) Just thought that I'd let you know. The name doesn't make that clear, obviously, but since you said Mr. Gray, I thought I'd give you a heads up that I am not a Mr.

[mogster]

49. What the DUers are for

is perhaps the 'open and democratic investigation' bit?

After all I'm not asking for people to be silenced, I'm asking that there should be more openness to why these things happen.

> Fucking neo mccarthyism over a cartoon dealing with religion in a secular country

The one publishing this cartoon isn't a secular person, he is a very religious man who fronts a very strict interpretation of the Bible. If he weren't, this would never have become an issue, because seculars aren't prominent in Norway anymore.

He chooses to use this cartoon to provoke Muslims because he's religious and thinks his God is bigger than their God. Thus he demeans their God in a series of cartoons published and I, a non-religious man, has to see my country being hijacked into hate and fear between religious people.

Now, does something sound familiar?

[rinsd]

50. An open and democratic investigation into an artist's motivation

Orwell would be proud.

"After all I'm not asking for people to be silenced, I'm asking that there should be more openness to why these things happen."

You think openness would be created by the government investigating artists? You're kidding right.

"The one publishing this cartoon isn't a secular person, he is a very religious man who fronts a very strict interpretation of the Bible. If he weren't, this would never have become an issue, because seculars aren't prominent in Norway anymore"

Do you think the Muslims reacting know his background?

"He chooses to use this cartoon to provoke Muslims because he's religious and thinks his God is bigger than their God. Thus he demeans their God in a series of cartoons published and I, a non-religious man, has to see my country being hijacked into hate and fear between religious people."

For somone looking for an open and democratic investigation it seems you already have read his mind.

Fuck this McCarthy bs and I am STILL extememly ashamed that so many on DU have signed on.

Freedom of expression only when we agree with it, this country is truly dead if that's how DUers feel.

[mogster]

53. Fuck the artist

He's not the one in question here.
The artists are all Danish, not Norwegian.

I want to know why the media chose this example of free speech at this point in time to take a stand that binds Norway to the Bush doctrine.

Uh.. and you seems a tad over medium interested in this campaign ;-)

> Do you think the Muslims reacting know his background?
What does that have to do with the media in Norway? I'm interested in the publisher's motives, and why the Norwegian media picked up on this. The Muslims reaction was foreseeable, no?

> For somone looking for an open and democratic investigation it seems you already have read his mind.
Read you own words. That's why I'm asking for an open and democratic investigation. Because I don't know his mind, and I don't know who influenced him, and for what reasons.

> Fuck this McCarthy bs and I am STILL extememly ashamed that so many on DU have signed on.
Your shame is very becoming. I'm sure some at least takes the hint by now.

> Freedom of expression only when we agree with it, this country is truly dead if that's how DUers feel.
What about my freedom of expression? I'm asking questions, that's all.

Peace.

[rinsd]

65. LOL

"Uh.. and you seems a tad over medium interested in this campaign"

Yeah that's it. I have an agenda all right. I believe in absolute freedom of expression. I don't care why someone creates something or why it was published. To call for government investigation into these motivations is the antithesis of freedom.

"That's why I'm asking for an open and democratic investigation. Because I don't know his mind, and I don't know who influenced him, and for what reasons."

You don't get it. They shouldn't have to explain anything to the government.

[mogster]

73. But I'm not the govt., I'm the ghost of D.E.M.O.C.R.A.C.Y.

Not to mention the ghost of D.I.P.L.O.M.A.C.Y.

> You don't get it. They shouldn't have to explain anything to the government.

Try reading some posts in this thread. They should have to answer to me, because I'm a citizen of this country, and want some answers. This episode means a lot of change to me as a citizen of Norway, and it's absurd to suggest I'd let that slip.

Remember Norway is a small country. We have different 'rules of engegament' when it comes to diplomacy, and most of our appeasement is towards the US, regardless of current US govt.
Freedom of speech my ass.
We adapt, and this is no news. It isn't even mentioned on the front pages. That's why I'm reacting against this; it is extremism. It's not good for the economy OR the name of our country (or any other reason I can think of) to offend about a billion people. It's in no way the path I would have chosen even if I fell on my head after a drunken spree, but it do seems to have a hangover taste of bullshit.

I don't believe that this cartoon carries any controversy, nor do I let myself be carried away by the 'liberal' reaction . Who's extreme? :shrug:
I'm conservative enough to recognize a truck load of horse shit when I see it, and liberal enough to do something about it - this makes up for my reaction to this.

I want TRUTH and when it comes to media, I want the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, with the explicit bullshit_filter taking out any GOD of any kind.

[rinsd]

47. You and Chimpy on the same page

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2083944&mesg_id=2083944

[otohara]

70. I Had To Re-Read The OP

Wait a miniute, isn't that what our dictator leader thinks too?

[smirkymonkey]

81. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

I don't understand how liberals/progressives can come down on the side of censorship. And how they can defend right-wing fundamentalists.

[byronius]

48. Done.

[Swamp Rat]

52. kick and recommended ... for fighting the Nazis in Norway!

Tusen takk mogster! :hi:

[mogster]

68. Thank you Swamp Rat

Your spirit keeps me hanging on :-)
We Norwegians could need some of that, we seem to have forgot past sins.

[radio4progressives]

55. Sam Harris Explains The Clash of Faith and Reason

http://samharris.org/

The End of Faith, by Sam Harris

The Clash of Faith and Reason

This important and timely book delivers a startling analysis of the clash of faith and reason in the modern world.

The End of Faith provides a harrowing glimpse of mankind’s willingness to suspend reason in favor of religious beliefs, even when these beliefs inspire the worst of human atrocities. Harris argues that in the presence of weapons of mass destruction, we can no longer expect to survive our religious differences indefinitely.

Most controversially, he maintains that “moderation” in religion poses considerable dangers of its own: as the accommodation we have made to religious faith in our society now blinds us to the role that faith plays in perpetuating human conflict.

While warning against the encroachment of organized religion into world politics, Harris draws on insights from neuroscience, philosophy, and Eastern mysticism in an attempt to provide a truly modern foundation for our ethics and our search for spiritual experience.

[mogster]

83. This is interesting

> The End of Faith provides a harrowing glimpse of mankind’s willingness to suspend reason in favor of religious beliefs, even when these beliefs inspire the worst of human atrocities. Harris argues that in the presence of weapons of mass destruction, we can no longer expect to survive our religious differences indefinitely.

That may be the March 2006 Surprise.

And the educated man's belief structure focused on facts can't even begin to relate, because the subsequent thought is too 'way out there'. To a liberal, but ignorant, European, this is every Monday morning cereral breakfast, I guess this is the same with lib. but ig. Americans, but with more toeballs as you've come further in experiencing Bushco 'society undoing'.
The world just is, you don't even appear on the level where you question the current structure of _realtive_ democracy and freedom. Barbary - what's that?
That is the most interesting trait about the rw movement; their ability to gleefullly dumb and seemingly in charge, dump us all into a horrifying string of disasters, fuelled by an unprecedented level of ignorance you wouldn't expect from the 21st Century Schizoid Man.

Thanks for posting this, radio4progressives. It made me think :-)

[radio4progressives]

56. K&R

[bloom]

57. I am happy to see this post.

People need to get a clue around here.

[bloom]

59. I hate hearing about more countries

that are going Bush-like though. :(


(I need a place that I can move to - if only in my dreams).

[mogster]

61. We'll beat them together, bloom

Don't worry a minute ;-)

BTW: You can move here now, and teach us about the fundies and how to avoid them taking over. I'll provide the beer :D

[DemonGoddess]

64. Done

[pearl]

67. This is a cynical use of free speech to destroy it.

This smells of Black ops. I don't know but now look, the
world is actually pulling back on free speech. Wow.
I agree, It's creepy.

[CJCRANE]

76. I have a born-again Christian friend

who predicted that there would be the "New Crusades" very soon. I don't know where he gets his info from but it doesn't surprise that the commissioner of these cartoons is a fundamentalist Christian. It seems to me that neocon foreign policy and RW rhetoric is doing it's utmost to provoke a clash of civilizations.

[EFerrari]

69. Kick

[jeannicot]

74. Why should we help you

in limiting others' freedom of expression. You seem to work in the press. Loss of freedom is loss of freedom. What assurances do you have that your call for restrictions of press freedom wouldn't end up biting you in the ass? The Middle EAstern response to the cartoons are ridiculous. Latching on to them to try to restrict the liberty of your own countrymen is simply despicable.

[mogster]

79. Well, jeannicot

I don't work in the press.
Who say's I'm limiting my countrymen's freedom of expression? Isn't it freedom of expression to question the established press?
I don't believe in freedom of speech only for the privileged.

I want answers to why Norway:

- was brought into the 'Coalition of the Willing' in May 2003 by a political fraction in Norway actively working against the current Govt. policy of 'No, we won't unless the UN leads', and succeeded in bringing Norway into the Coalition on the 12-13th of May 2003, just some days after Bush had declared his 'Mission Accomplished'. Under heavy pressure from the Am. ambassador to Oslo, who said: 'Relationship between the US and Norway may never be the same again.'.
On the 22nd Norway was threatened for the first time by Al-Queda specifically, and no one here could understand why.
Including me.

- did offend a billion people in a flash, without thinking. It's so 2006, but we need to keep a little contact with ground control.
Is Norway paying the price of 30 years as peace-bimbos that does not even understand when they're threatened?

> The Middle EAstern response to the cartoons are ridiculous.

Sounds like something bin Laden would say about western women.

> Latching on to them to try to restrict the liberty of your own countrymen is simply despicable.

While sound and reasoned hearings disclosing the carpet behing the stage is reasonable? I can live with that :D

[smirkymonkey]

82. Welcome to DU, jennicot!

Thanks for your input! :hi:

[TahitiNut]

75. From one kNut to another ...

:yourock:

[mogster]

94. Thanks, TahitiNut

I appreciate your take on this :toast:

[Hardrada]

77. Mange tusen Takk, Mogster!

An Iowa Norwegian ( Vik-i-Sogninger) checking in. You fight those buggers there and we'll do our best to stop them here!

[preciousdove]

85. Hi Cuz! n/t

[Hardrada]

101. Hello there!

I have a remote cousin in Vik. We hope to visit Norge quite soon and maybe venture up the Sognefjord.

[entanglement]

78. I love Norway because Jesus was born there

:D

[Hardrada]

86. No , he wasn't.

They couldn't find Three Wise Men to the East.

[laheina]

87. .

[mogster]

95. He was, but had to move to Finland

We got Santa Claus in return ;-)

[GOPFighter]

80. Signed

Every few decades the fascists sneak out from under their rocks and try to wreak havoc, and the world has to band together to kick their asses back under the rocks again. Good luck!

[mogster]

97. Thanks, GOPFighter

Much appreciated. There are much to this case not brought up here. I'll see about posting some information later.

[preciousdove]

84. Signed 1/4 Proud Norwegian n/t

[mogster]

96. I give you a 1/1 thanks for that

Thanks for caring about Norway. We need the Am. libs more than ever to bridge the Atlantic :-)

[laheina]

88. Did it. :)

Good luck.

[file83]

90. If you want restrictions on political speech, your letter would be illegal

The Islamic protests would be illegal as well. That doesn't sound very smart, does it?

It sounds like you're angry because fanatical Islamic people wish harm upon you. So why do you blame freedom of speech? Don't you realize that in America during the 2004 Presidential Election that people got beat up if they had anti-Bush stickers on their cars? People lost their jobs if the supported John Kerry.

Does that mean that we attack freedom of speech? NO. We fight the people that attack our freedom. Not the other way around.

One person in your country should be able to make a political statement about a Religion in a cartoon without the ENTIRE country fearing physical violence from that Relgious world. It is ridiculous. You better learn how to use your freedoms before you ask them to be taken away.

[mogster]

93. As if

> We fight the people that attack our freedom. Not the other way around.

No.
You don't fight. You sit around like the rest of us, twiddling thumbs, waiting for the grill to heat up.

> You better learn how to use your freedoms before you ask them to be taken away.

My 'freedoms'?? OK.
Now, how do I use them if not by asking questions?
Read this thread, friend. It's not about restriction of the freedom of the press, it's about restriction of my freedom because I'm now stigmatized beyond any recognition of what used to be normal for my country.
Or, what I used to think was my country's normal image, that is. Maybe the reality wasn't that pretty after all.
It would in any case be an illusion I'd share with many Americans.

[file83]

102. There are two sides - you are only seeing this from one

If you are angry because Norway is part of the military coalition in Iraq, then fine, you have a logical, justifiable reason for being upset with your government's foreign policy. But to be angry with your entire country because of a cartoon is not smart. If anyone is angry at the cartoonist and the paper, fine. But the entire country? It's not smart of you and it's not very smart of Islamic fundamentalists. So why are you thinking this way?

In your words:
"...it's about restriction of my freedom because I'm now stigmatized beyond any recognition of what used to be normal for my country."

Even though the cartoons are outrageous, why would I think that anyone other than the cartoonist himself/paper were responsible for that action? Why?

Stigmatized in whose eyes?

The answer is that you feel stigmitized in Islamic eyes. Why do you feel respect for fundamentalist people that react in such insanely illogical and unreasonable terms?

If your freedom has been restricted, who DIRECTLY do you feel is restricting it? Not the cartoonist. Not your government. The Islamic fundamentalists are the ones that, you admit, wish you harm. Yet, you empathize with them instead of your country's freedoms?

If an American cartoonist made a cartoon of your God that offended you, would you hate all 300 million Americans and freedom of speech, or just the cartoonist and the paper? Think about it.

In your words:
"...what I used to think was my country's normal image..."

Again, your country's image through whose eyes? Islamic fundamentalists. Why should they be mad at Norway?

You don't want to hurt other people's feelings. That is an admirable quality - but you didn't do anything like that. A separate human being did the cartoon - a human being that happens to live in your country, a country that celebrates free speech.

The exercise of Free Speech will usually offend someone or some group. That is the nature of Free Speech. Everytime George W. Bush speaks on TV or radio I feel offended. I get angry that he is in charge of our country. I get angry that SO MANY stupid Americans voted for him. I get angry that they and he are so stupid. But that doesn't mean I think we should stop free speech. It makes me want to use my free speech to communicate - not to violate.

So, instead of trying to stop these offensive cartoons from being published - why don't you make or write (and hire an artist if you can't draw) a cartoon about how stupid those artists are - or how stupid you think your country is. You seem to think cartoons are very powerful devices of speech. You should then use them. But don't, DON'T ask for restrictions on free speech. That is counterproductive.

I never said you shouldn't "ask questions". I just gave advice to you that before you start demanding the imposition of restrictions on free political speech - by your demands - you might want to consider that in the end result you would no longer be allowed to "ask questions".

[mogster]

107. OK, I see

I'm not sure you understand where I wanted to go with this. This is not about freedom of speech, but of double standards.
I'm not attacking freedom of speech, I'm questioning those double standards. I'm the person asking the questions. I don't put a lid on things, I'm talking about them.

But I have decided to call this off anyway.

Today our embassy in Syria was attacked and torched, and I don't feel it is the right thing to do anymore.
Norway needs unity, not more quarreling.

Thanks for your interesting points :-)

[file83]

109. mogster, peace be with you. I'm sorry to hear about your embassy being

attacked and torched and I hope your countrymen are alive and well. I understand your point now. Thanks.

[Raine]

91. Did it

my grandparents came over from Norway in the early 1900s so I am happy to sign it for you.

[Moosepoop]

100. Signed and kicked. n/t

[Ani Yun Wiya]

103. Done

And THANK YOU.

[mogster]

108. OK people - I'm cancelling this campaign!

Due to the attacks and torching of our embassy in Syria today, I'm calling off this campaign.
We don't need more disagreement, we need unity in Norway now.

Besides, I watched a very moving interview with Mr. Kokkvold earlier today where he clarified his stance. I can't bear to add to his pressure, he's under heavy threats from abroad.

Thank you DU, for taking your time :-) You have mattered, with only 30 + votes, I know that for a fact. Americans enjoy a special respect in Norway. As a comparison, the 'opprop' next to mine was 'Stop the de-Christianization of Norway', and had 18728 votes.

This has generated some very interesting debates both here and at home, and I've appreciated your thoughts as well as your votes.

Hopefully, this will blow over soon and it might even be turned into something good, eventually.
Let me take the opportunity to say to the DU Muslims: Sorry for what these guys did. It should never have happened. You deserve respect not because you are a threat, but because you are an asset to any community.

I'll continue to dig into this, but on a different key.

[sadinred]

110. Signed. I hope it grows huge and lands in the papers here! n/t

[unhappycamper]

112. Locking

Per OP request.